Talk:Argentina

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wtf?

"placing the country high in the global rankings of literacy. Today Argentina has a literacy rate of 97,4%,[136] and 16,2% over age 15 have completed secondary school studies or higher."

Somebody should check the seconcdary school completition percentage, I find it very hard to believe only 16% finished high school... I heard somewhere it was more like 60-70% wich seems more believele. 16% is Sub-saharan-african-country's bad...

Oh and somebody please fix the GINI, it says the same thing since f*cking forever (Its like 4 years old), its about 0.37ish now, and it would be "middle" not "high", and few countries put the "low-middle-high" thing anyways... --190.244.81.170 (talk) 04:30, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Small Edit

In the right panel with country data, the GDP PPP value is correct but says its position is "(22nd)" when should say "(21st)" (Argentina took 21st place since 2011, leaving the Netherlands in 22nd) --201.253.57.22 (talk) 19:34, 21 April 2012 (UTC) Edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.253.57.22 (talk) 05:08, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

Please, check what they say before, now Argentina is the 21st world economy (look the charts by the IMF). And checking the "nominal GDP per capita", elaborated by the IMF, Argentina is not the Fifth in Latin America, is the Fourth! (the chart in wikipedia says that). THANKS, Matías

Edit Request on 15 April 2012

In the 'Dirty War' section it states that Argentina attempted to 'recover the [Falkland] islands'. This is technically incorrect, as the Falkland Islands were never taken from Argentina. 92.12.21.230 (talk) 23:35, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Edit Request

The link to Chile in the first paragraph goes to Antartica.--E1stettler (talk) 14:13, 5 March 2012 (UTC)Etienne

Hi, there should be a mention here about Kirchner's death in October 27 2010. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.196.189.191 (talk) 16:56, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

 Done Cambalachero (talk) 15:38, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Hi, I'm not a member of wikipedia (and I'm sure that this is in the wrong section) (and this is unrelated to the edit request above, but I don't know where to put it), but I just wanted to say that the "Dirty War" section of this wikipedia entry either seems to have been written by someone who is not a native English speaker, or to have been copied and translated en masse from a non-English source using some online language translator. Incorrect grammar is used throughout, and I think it would be good to find the source and re-translate/edit it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.28.15.37 (talk) 01:31, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Gini Index [Again]

Gini Index seems to be wrong again. In Argentina article, it marks 45.8 (2009; and it's wrong the notation too). In sub-article (Argentine Economy) it marks actually 0.379 (Q1 2011).

Sorry for my poor english. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Facundil (talk • contribs) 10:52, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Both articles use different sources. I'd say the first one (the CIA Factbook) is more reliable than the second one (INDEC), but I could be wrong. There are more sources in the list of countries by income equality.

In the meanwhile, I've corrected the format in this article. Is 'high' the correct category? --Langus (talk) 14:01, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Mmm, I didn't found other source for gini index. I think that CIA Factbook gini index is too high and INDEC one is a bit low. For the correct category, I don't know but I think that is not high and not low the index. Gini index should be inter 0.39 and 0.42, I'll look for another source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Facundil (talk • contribs) 20:20, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

The INDEC is not a reliable source for Argentine statistics, it is widely rejected (both domestically and internationally) for its indecent manipulation of that info. This goes beyond just critics at a disgruntled newspaper, even the IMF and Barack Obama critiziced this. See here for a small sample of political repercutions Cambalachero (talk) 16:13, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

INDEC is the official source for this data and it is not disputed on this matter (only in measuring inflation is). CIA factbook is usually politically biased and normally based on simple estimates. The INDEC one should be used. Is the official. Period. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.109.12.14 (talk) 10:00, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps there's a little confusion here. World Bank's data show 44.5 for 2010 (stricto sensu, as per Gini coefficient definition, I would rather prefer 0.445). That figure is consistent with 0.4579 informed by INDEC for Q3 2010 based on total household income, available here. The 0.379 figure probably comes from taking into account a different calculation: household per capita income (adding households), also shown in the above mentioned INDEC report. Since that figure does not consider the number of members in a household, and poor households have a (global) tendency to have more members than richer ones, the value is somewhat misleading (but useful for other purposes). The difference is clear when you see household per capita income (adding population): the same source shows 0.4885. Cinabrium (talk) 17:44, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

who wrote this?

Could you provide a reference for your given affirmation about Cristina Kirchner ... "limiting the freedom of speech"  ?? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.18.114.95 (talk) 20:29, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

 Done Cambalachero (talk) 15:36, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Do you mean Rosendo Fraga (who is he?) is censored ? Could you please transcript the paragraph ? , I certainly would not buy this guy book to check this . Is there any global reliable source backing this claim ?

e.g. www state gov

2006 http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/hrrpt/2006/78877.htm The independent media were numerous and active and, despite the government's confrontational attitude, expressed a wide variety of views without restriction. All print media were owned privately, as were a significant number of radio and television stations.

2011 http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/hrrpt/2010/wha/154491.htm The independent media were numerous and active, expressing a wide variety of views. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.18.114.95 (talk) 23:28, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Freedom of speech has never been higher in Argentina. The new media law and the repealing of the old law concerning libel are proofs enough. I suggest user cambalachero stops mixing it's personal political opinions with wikipedia, which shouldn't be a political tool for propaganda, for either governement or anti-government use. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.109.12.14 (talk) 10:07, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

PORCENTAJE DE MESTIZOS??

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composici%C3%B3n_%C3%A9tnica_de_Argentina

LOS DE LOS MESTIZOS Y EUROPEOS ESTA TODO MAL, EN ARGENTINA MAS DE UN 56% TIENE ALGUN ANTEPASADO INDIGENA, PORLOTANTO MESTIZOS SON 56% !!! NOSE QUIEN CARAJO ESCRIBE EL ARTICULO, PERO ESTARIA BIEN QUE VIAJE A ARGENTINA, AL CONURBANO BONAERENSE, AL CHACO, JUJUY, SALTA... CAMBIENLO ENSERIO, LEAN FUENTES FIABLES, WIKIPEDIA TIENE QUE SER SERIA, Y EL ARTICULO QUE PUSE ES DE WIKIPEDIA, ASI QUE SE CONTRADICEN MUCHO!

No need to shout. Using foul language does not get your point across any better. Stating your opinion may be valid here, as long as you can produce reliable sources to back it up. Pointing to an article in Spanish Wikipedia does not make it any more reliable or verifiable. Please do not post in Spanish in the English language Wikipedia and please remember to sign your posts in talk pages with four tildes (~~~~). -- Alexf^(talk) 11:12, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

jaja okey gracias amigo, esque nose hablar ingleees, pero soy argentino asi que lo que digo es bien fiable ;) GRACIAS — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.88.59.1 (talk) 13:37, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Opinión sin fuentes no es fiable en WP. Si no escribes en inglés, serás bienvenido en Wikipedia en Español, donde también se necesitan fuentes fiables.

Argentina has more than 80% of European descendense, who wrote 61% it's wrong, Wikipedia must change that porcentage (we have the same levels as Uruguay), and thay guy that said thar Argentinians have indian blood, is making a mistake (he must love Che Guevara and love Cuba hehe). Please change that number, 61% is wrong. Thanks, Matías. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.58.51.235 (talk) 01:26, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

Here's the source: http://edant.clarin.com/diario/2005/01/16/sociedad/s-03415.htm (the article's in Spanish). Still, it says 56% of argentines have SOME amerindian descent, it doesn't say how much. Possibly there is people with 90% european 10% amerindian blood included in that 56% (I don't know, really, the article isn't very clear). I believe the percentages currently shown in the article are quite correct (White (61%), Mestizo (26%), Does not know/No response (7%), Other (3%), Amerindian (1%), Black (1%), Mulatto (1%), Asian (0%)) 190.193.177.4 (talk) 21:09, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

That research was conducted by a team leaded by Dr. Daniel Corach he is with the genetics tracks service in the University of Buenos Aires faculty of pharmacy and biochemistry, the study was made by collecting roughly 10000 anonymous genetic samples from public hospitals in 11 provinces main hospitals: http://www.ffyb.uba.ar/gxpsites/hgxpp001.aspx?2,1,1605,O,S,0,PAG;CONC;1609;6;D;2178;1;PAG;, (include the semicolon and the comma at the end of the link if not it won't show the website properly) It is a well know fact that most Argentinian nationals do not use massively the public health service, most people are affiliated to privatized or partially privatized health services called "obra social" or "prepaga", the public hospital service are used generally by the most vulnerable section of the population that includes lower class, immigrants and people from abroad: http://www.eldia.com.ar/edis/20110220/tapa18.htm It is calculated that one out of three patients in public hospital throughout Argentina are from abroad who come specifically for medical care in Argentina where that is provided for free, they won't get a no as an answer because according to Argentine laws it is a constitutional right the access to health services. That means the whole research is questionable it is probable they get genetic samples from people who aren't even Argentinians at all: http://www.minutouno.com/notas/46625- They say in that article that Bolivian nationals residents in Argentina who attend to public hospitals are the 7% of the whole total hospitals population, i rather think it is more but there isn't a reliable research about this with cold stone numbers, and that article do not even say if those patients are ambulatory or if they are admitted in the hospitals and occupying a bed or if it's the two things together. And that doesn't even contemplate Peruvian, Paraguayan, Chilean and other nationals residents in Argentina. I think that part should be dismissed from the article in Wikipedia because of the lack of accuracy of the probings, if we are going to make voodoo out of this let's start: 10000 genetic samples 1/3 of the patients are from abroad: 10000/3= 3333.33 were people who do not even are Argentine, 10000-3333.33= 6666.67 people when we deduct people from abroad, now we have 6666.67*7/100= 466.66 Bolivian nationals residents in Argentina that goes to public hospitals, lets make 10000-3333.33-466.66= 6200.01 people who might be Argentinians and that's without counting Peruvians, Paraguayans and Chileans in an aftermath we can say there is a chance that 38% of the samples can be from foreigner that do no live in Argentina and Bolivians born people who lives in Argentina, i know this is voodoo, but the Dr. Corach's research is voodoo and tendentious as well.190.230.12.154 (talk) 17:20, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Latinobarometro...

Latinobarometro is not a credible source to cite as for the ethnic composition of the Argentinian population. How could "only" 61% of Argentinians have European ancestry (a percentage this even lower than that of the US) when the country's current population was totally shaped by massive European immigration in late XIX and early XX centuries??? 26% Mestizo and 3% Black, Mulatto or Amerindian simply aren't credible figures... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.171.153.130 (talk) 21:31, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

I am agree with the last comment, latinobarometro is not a credible source to cite as for the ethnic composition of the Argentinian population. How could "only" 61% of Argentinians have European ancestry (a percentage this even lower than that of the US) when the country's current population was totally shaped by massive European immigration in late XIX and early XX centuries??? 26% Mestizo and 3% Black, Mulatto or Amerindian simply aren't credible figures... I am argentinian and I never saw in my all life a black person in argentina, I have 17 year old, and in my class in the school are 27 people, 23 are white, the 85% of my class is white, in a public school. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.122.3.47 (talk) 03:52, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

Have any of you guys read the whole article of Latinobarometro? That is a bunch of data collected from that organisation from the general public, they just go out there and ask common people what do they think without any rigorous official and reliable data sources, lets say if you go to mostly immigrant neighborhoods from neighbor countries to Argentina and you ask those people you mostly will receive the same reply: indigenous or mix raced, but that do not represent the totality of the Argentine population as a whole, anyways Latinobarometro gives a wild guess on that matter based on what people think they are, some people will consider themselves as "mestizo" since they are a mix of European ethnic origins but still they should be considered as white. I think that part should be removed because of lack of serious and reliable sources. 190.230.12.154 (talk) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.230.12.154 (talk) 15:55, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

File:Puertoba.jpg Nominated for Deletion

An image used in this article, File:Puertoba.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Media without a source as of 26 March 2012 What should I do? Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so. If the image is non-free then you may need to upload it to Wikipedia (Commons does not allow fair use) If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale then it cannot be uploaded or used. To take part in any discussion, or to review a more detailed deletion rationale please visit the relevant image page (File:Puertoba.jpg) This is Bot placed notification, another user has nominated/tagged the image --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 02:07, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

Ethnicity

Ok, I start by saying, as people above me, that Latinobarometro is not a believable source. I'm from Argentina and not me, my family, friends nor anyone from the town where I live were ever asked about what race we consider ourselves. I asked to people I know from nearby towns and cities and they said the same.

Now, the other issue: it says 61% white, 26% mestizo, 1% amerindian, 1% black and 1% mulatto. The thing is, that 26+1+1+1 is 29, and 100-29 isn't 61, it's 71. Also, I think it's impossible that 2% of the Argentine population might be afro, the fingers of my hands are more than enough to count how many afro people I've seen in my country in my life.

So what people here should do is, to put aside Latinobarometro and take other sources (that would be more advisable) or correct the percentage of white people which, I repeat, should be 71% instead of 61%, that's much more likely and closest to reality. --190.216.6.110 (talk) 18:49, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

File:Argentina Product Export Treemap.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion

An image used in this article, File:Argentina Product Export Treemap.jpg, has been nominated for speedy deletion at Wikimedia Commons for the following reason: Copyright violations What should I do? Don't panic; deletions can take a little longer at Commons than they do on Wikipedia. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion (although please review Commons guidelines before doing so). The best way to contest this form of deletion is by posting on the image talk page. If the image is non-free then you may need to upload it to Wikipedia (Commons does not allow fair use) If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale then it cannot be uploaded or used. If the image has already been deleted you may want to try Commons Undeletion Request To take part in any discussion, or to review a more detailed deletion rationale please visit the relevant image page (File:Argentina Product Export Treemap.jpg) This is Bot placed notification, another user has nominated/tagged the image --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 19:40, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

INDEC as a source for GDP

The INDEC cannot be considered by any means a reliable source for establishing the current state of the Argentine economy, and manipulated figures should not be given any place in this article. They've been cooking their books for years now, I can produce any number of sources to prove it if necessary.--Ultimate Destiny (talk) 02:39, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

It's well known that INDEC is no longer reliable and has been for a few years manipulating numbers to present a better vire of Argentine economy than it truly is. I agree with you, Ultimate Destiny. You've done the right thing. --Lecen (talk) 03:49, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

As I mentioned in the "Gini Index [Again]" thread, the INDEC is rejected both within and outside Argentina. The rejection range even from Barack Obama and the IMF to the independent Argentine press and everyone in the middle. Only the press financed by the government thinks that there is no problem with it, or take such values as correct (and as they are financed by the government, they can't be taken as uninvolved opinions). Even the unionist Hugo Moyano, when he was still allied to the government, refused to negotiate worker wages under the inflation figures provided by the INDEC. Cambalachero (talk) 22:04, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

Cambalachero, you have all rights to hold your political beliefs. But not for using Wikipedia articles as a platform for them. "The rejection range[s] even from Barack Obama and the IMF...": sources, please. When has President Obama said such thing? Or the IMF? On the other hand, the statemets of what you call "independent Argentine press" (do you mean Clarín and La Nación?), spearheading the opposition, can´t be taken at face value. BTW, what's being discussed here are GDP, not CPI, figures; and AFAICT the figures shown in the article are those from IMF. Cinabrium (talk) 01:33, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

The reference is where I said it was, see here. And that's a mere example. On the other hand, I will request you to cite some reliable source which supports the INDEC in this controversy... and does not get financial rewards from the Argentine government. Can you cite any such source? Cambalachero (talk) 00:56, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Four days have passed, and no source has been presented. As I said, the only sources that support the INDEC figures receive payment from the government, and thus are not reliable. All the media that is not financed by the government (including but not limited to Clarín and La Nación) reject it. Cambalachero (talk) 14:23, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Ethnicity (AGAIN)

Hey people, what's wrong with you? 61%+26%+1%+1%+1% is only 90%, where's the missing 10%? were 4 million Argentines taken by aliens? O, and by the way, Argentina is 21st in the list of GDP (PPP) according to the IMF, not 22nd. --190.216.6.110 (talk) 02:23, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Ethnicity

I live in Argentina, I am argentinian, and I never saw a black in my all life, are more asian than blacks, MUCH more,so much more, is impossible that live in argentina 800000 blacks, and that i never saw one of them, is an stupid. Please, fix that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Juani36 (talk • contribs) 22:31, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

• Already fixed (kind of). The study only shows that the cited percentage of people have some genetic markers pointing at some African ancestry, one that is not reflected in the population's physiognomy. The figures are confusing because do not speak of ethnicity, only shows -in the taken sample- the percentage of those having certain markers other than the predominant one, given the general admixture of the population. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Magnvss (talk • contribs) 20:44, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

It seems to be a problem, as usual with the ethnicity stats. In my humble opinion, the former stats are properly written and stated by reliable sources as per WP:RS, and unlike the current one entirely stated and cited on Latinobarometro survey on public opinion. I'm not saying that we have to delete this information from Wikipedia, I'm saying that in order to renominate Argentina as a good article and meet the good article criteria is better to state possible controversial data on a non-GA page. --Fercho85 (talk) 19:18, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Current Constitution

The Current Constitution is not the one enacted on May 1st, 1853, since it has been amended several times, instead, I think two events should be recorded, the enactment of the Constitution that created the Argentine Republic on May 1st, 1853, and the last amendment to it, on August 22nd, 1994. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.231.96.167 (talk) 08:30, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

The 1853 Constitution was amended several times, but it has never been repealed as those of 1819 and 1826 Cambalachero (talk) 02:24, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Article size

This article has nearly 78 KB of readable text. According to WP:SIZERULE, it should be reduced in at least 18 or 28 KB. I will begin working on it. Cambalachero (talk) 13:35, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Ethnicity

I just can't believe the statistics on the number of people of pure european descent. I was recently in Buenos Aires and I swear at least 30% of the people were mestizo to some degree, the native south american appearance is quite a distinctive look. I'm from Europe and no way does it look like a homogenous european group of people. Possibly this is the result of increased migration from peru etc but either way - it certainly was not "overwhelmingly white european" Jandrews23jandrews23 (talk) 21:04, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

2 further points: being "white" is not the same as being 100% european descent. Mestizos are white

If this is based on self identification only its hardly scientific.

Based on the people you see when you walk around I'd suggest its more like 60% european, 40% native/mestizo. I saw a handful of black people and two asians. Jandrews23jandrews23 (talk) 21:13, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

Jandrews says:

"I was recently in Buenos Aires and I swear at least 30% of the people were mestizo to some degree"

Buenos Aires doesn't represent all of Argentina, and central Buenos Aires (where you probably were) doesn't even represent all of Buenos Aires. So, you can't rely on pure observation. It would be like someone visiting Miami and concluding that half the US population is Spanish-speaking. Skyduster (talk) 06:00, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Ethnicity (Again and again)

Now the proportion of Asian people in Argentina is 0% huh? let me ask you something, editors of this page, does the term Chinese Argentine mean something to you? nearly 1% of Argentina's population is composed by Asians, being them Chinese, Japanese or Korean, natives or immigrants. To this is added that proportion of white Argentines is not lower, but significantly lower than the proportion of white U.S Americans, and that proporcion of Afro Argentines doesn't match what is seen on the streets As I told you several times before, Latinobarometro is far from a reliable source, you must search for better sources. --190.216.6.110 (talk) 04:10, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

I haven't really looked into it, but you can find more sources at the relevant articles in Spanish WP: [1][2]

Some of them: [3][4][5]

Also, the Joshua Project could be considered. --Langus (t) 21:19, 6 July 2012 (UTC)