Talk:Vyachko

Tartu name

This article is wrong place to establish the name. Lowi, if you want to prove something, start from Tartu article, create section "Name" in it and make a detailed account of who, how and when called the place (providing reputable references). Right now the burden of proof is on Lowi, who wants to introduce the change in this article. Also, the etymology of "Tarbatu" would be useful. Doesn't sound Estonian to me. `'mikka (t) 17:35, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the advice. "Tarbatu" sounds as Estonian as a name can be, and there is really no burden of proof to show that this Estonian/Finnic name was in use before 1223 (rather than being imposed by invading Teutonic Knights, as you suggest?). By that time, it already appeared in Latin (Tharbatum) and German texts. As you probably guessed, Dorpat, Derpt, Tartu, etc. are all just cognates thereof, whereas Yuryev is not. Whether or not an article is about Vyachko or someone else, or pertains mostly to history of Russia or some other foreign country, Tartu lies in Estonia, and when we discuss in an English-language text an historical event that took place in Tartu in 1223 then there is no logic in claiming that the first name mentioned should be a cognate to the one used by contemporary East Slavs, but not by Estonians. Yuryev is fine and dandy in first position in Russian-language historical texts. Cheers, --3 Löwi 20:21, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Please don't devise rulers for Wikipedia. We have been through this ground times and times before. You may check the history of Gdansk to see what wild wars used to rage in WP about the nomenclature of the regional centres before. Generally, we use that name in historical contexts under which it was known at the time. For instance, Gdansk is called Danzig in articles referring to the period when it was part of Germany. Likewise, Kaliningrad is called Konigsberg in pre-1945 contexts. And Chernihiv is Chernigov. Therefore, it is only legitimate that the towns ruled by an East Slavic prince (as you call him) should be called by their East Slavic names common at the time. I don't know when "Tarbatu" enters history, it is up for you to provide references to primary sources, yet I know that what you call Tartu has been known in Russian documents as "Yuriev" since 1030. --Ghirla ^-трёп- 06:43, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

A claim that in 1223-1224 (when his 200 or so troops, amongst a much larger number of local Estonian Ugaunian troops stayed in the stronghold) Vyachko "ruled" the town of Yuryev (Tharbatum) is much less valid than a claim that in 1240 Germans ruled in Pleskau (Pskov), or in 1812 the French ruled in Moscou (Moscow). Danzig is a nice example, but "Germanic rule in Danzig" lasted slightly longer than "Slavic rule in Yuryev" (1030-1061), if you know what I mean. One contemporary source that already mentions Tharbatum/Tharbata is the Chronicle of Henry of Livonia. Again, it is fine and dandy to keep referring to Yuryev in first position in Russian-language texts, but the events of early 1200s when the stronghold of Tharbata/Tartu exchanged hands/rulers on numerous occasions during the Northern Crusades are rather well documented in contemporary Latin and Germanic texts, and the name Yuryev does not appear there. Cheers,--3 Löwi 09:18, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

"Altogether combining the number of years, Gdańsk was under rule of Poland for 641 years, under the rule of Teutonic Order for 158 years, 131 years as part of Prussia and later Germany, and 29 years of its history are marked by the status of a free city until it was assigned to Poland in 1945." I do not think the name "Gdansk" appeared very often in German(ic) texts between 1466 and 1793. Pan Gerwazy--pgp 09:12, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

A translation of the Chronicle from Latin to Russian can be found at [1] Jolly good reading, --3 Löwi 13:07, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Tartu name (Cont'd from User:Ghirlandajo's talk page)

As per revision as of 06:34, 28 April 2006, you still insist that in 1223 the more adequate way to refer to modern Tartu is "Yuryev (Tharbata)" (Ghirlandajo rationale : "German chronicles call it Tarbata and Russian chronicles call it Yuriev for two centuries previous - and so what?"). The answer to your "so what?" is: Let's be consistent. If earliest recorded name takes preference over contemporary and current names, as you seem to suggest, then let's start for the sake of consistency, by, e.g, renaming the article "Swedish-Novgorodian Wars" into "Swedish-Holmgardian Wars" and refer to the city as "Holmgard (Novgorod)" in any articles in any way related to Scandinavians and the time in Holmgard/Novgorod before the 14th century or so. What say you? Cheers, --3 Löwi 08:26, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Dear Lowi, your comparison is trollish. Novgorod is what the city has been called by its inhabitants during the whole time of its existence and we have records of that from the 9th century on. What the Estonians called Tartu in the 13th century, we can't tell, as there are no 13th-century records of Estonian language. Therefore, we should use one of two historic names recorded in contemporary (though foreign) sources - either Tarbatu or Yuriev. The latter should be given preference, as it was better established in historic documents by that time and because Vyachko, a Slavic prince, used this name and not Tarbatu. Please continue this discussion on Talk:Vyachko and not here. Cheers, Ghirla ^-трёп- 08:30, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Dear Ghirlandajo. We can tell rather well from 13th-century records what the Estonians called Tartu -- they called it Tarbatu (or some cognate thereof; because Tarbatu is not a Germanic name, that somehow got assigned to the place by Germanic merchants or crusaders before they even gained control over it). It is as logical an inference than claiming that Vhachko used the name Yuryev (or some cognate thereof) - he most probably did. However, there is no first-hand proof for either inference. Yuryev may have been "established" earlier in documents, but one cannot see how that makes it better established around 1223 (are you suggesting that there were far more Slavic document references produced on Yuryev at the time, than Germanic/Latin documents on Tharbata? Or that the Slavic documents were more widely distributed?...) As for Novgorod, what records are there showing that around 8-10th century the city's Finnic population and (at times ruling) Scandinavias also called it invariably "Novgorod"? Was "Holmgard" just a momentary lapse of reasoning and pure imagination of some faraway saga-writers? Cheers, --3 Löwi 09:03, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't get your Novgorod comparison at all. The Russians called Constantinople "Tsargrad" and the Norse called it "Miklagard", and so what? The Russian name for "Stockholm" was Stekolnya, should we use that too? The problems with all these comparisons are that the names used by the locality's inhabitants are well-recorded. It is not so for Tartu. Your inference that "Tharbata" somehow reflected the 13th-century Estonian usage is a pure original research. --Ghirla ^-трёп- 09:10, 28 April 2006 (UTC)