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PIGS (economics)

Dispute resolved successfully. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by Rannpháirtí anaithnid on 08:27, 24 August 2012 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute PIGS (economics) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved Rannpháirtí anaithnid (talk · contribs) Naumakos (talk · contribs) Dispute overview The dispute is to do with whether the term PIGS originally included "Ireland" or "Italy" and when Italy became associated with the term. The degree to which Wikipedia should reflect recentisms, how to arrive at WP:NPOV and whether original research should be used to resolve conflicting sources is at the heart of the dispute. This version, introduced by Naumakos on the 15 August 2012 is, I believe, contradicted by reliable sources. The main thrust of it is as follows: "PIGS (also PIIGS) is an acronym used to refer to the economies of Portugal, Ireland, Greece and Spain. Since 2011, the term has included Italy, with an additional I." The copy recommended by a third opinion is, I believe, more accurate, neutral, less reliant on recentism and more reflective of sources: "PIGS is an acronym that refers to the economies of Portugal, Italy, Greece, and Spain. Since the financial crisis of 2008, some economists use the "I" to refer to Ireland, and the acronym PIIGS is also used to refer to both Italy and Ireland." This is similar to a version agreed with a previous editor. The latest version by Naumakos is no better IMO. It introduces new questions about levels of inaccuracy (e.g. "Before the financial crisis of 2008, some(?) economists used the "I" to refer to Italy...") and continues to fail to show current (and usual) use including Italy. Sources with quotes are cited extensively on the article. Have you tried to resolve this previously? A WP:30, recommended the following: "PIGS is an acronym that refers to the economies of Portugal, Italy, Greece, and Spain. Since the financial crisis of 2008, some economists use the "I" to refer to Ireland, and the acronym PIIGS is also used to refer to both Italy and Ireland." How do you think we can help? DNR was recommended by the 3O. I hope further outside views will affirm the 30's recommendation, which strikes me as fair and accurate. Opening comments by Naumakos Authoritative sources include Ireland, while exclude Italy: The Economist: "Thanks to the tight fiscal policy of Mr Berlusconi's finance minister, Giulio Tremonti, Italy has so far escaped the markets' wrath. Ireland, not Italy, is the I in the PIGS (with Portugal, Greece and Spain). Italy avoided a housing bubble; its banks did not go bust. Employment held up: the unemployment rate is 8%, compared with over 20% in Spain. The budget deficit in 2011 will be 4% of GDP, against 6% in France." (here); Le Figaro, "«La reprise en 2010 dépendra encore de la dépense publique», précise le chef économiste de la Coface, Yves Zlotowski. Avec le risque de creuser un peu plus les déficits. La situation est particulièrement alarmante pour les «PIGS» - Portugal, Irlande, Grèce et Espagne -, où la dette a le plus augmenté entre 2007 et 2011." (here); Corriere della Sera, "L’Italia non è simile ai Pigs. Piuttosto va paragonata al Belgio" "L’Italia, conclude Edwards, è stata tirata dentro la crisi in modo un po’ arbitrario." (here). So, there is no original research. I do not understand why we should include Italy if there are important sources include Ireland. If, then, we consider that: Ireland received € 85 billion euro as international aid to avoid bankruptcy, while Italy did not receive even one euro; the interest rates of government bonds came to 24% for Ireland, 7% for Italy (few weeks); then we conclude that Ireland has much more serious problems of Italy. From the technical point of review, PIGS include Ireland. However, several journalistic sources include Italy: in mass-media language, the term is used in promiscuous mode to include both countries. I believe that this promiscuity should be considered. So it is a mistake to include Italy (or Ireland) tout court: it would be an arbitrary choice. That's why I proposed several solutions ("PIGS is an acronym that refers to the economies of Portugal, Ireland or Italy, Greece, and Spain") or move the article to PIIGS. If PIGS was used to indicate Italy in the 90s, that meaning changed in light of the crisis of 2007, i.e. five years ago, no recentism. The phrase "Some economists" was used for the first time by User:Rannpháirtí anaithnid (here).--Naumakos (talk) 20:02, 25 August 2012 (UTC) PIGS (economics) discussion Please do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary. Hello! I'm a DRN volunteer and I'll be assisting this request. The dispute resolution noticeboard is informal and nonbinding. Waiting on Naumakos' comment.--SGCM (talk) 13:18, 24 August 2012 (UTC) Will this work as a compromise? "PIGS is an acronym that refers to the economies of Portugal, Greece, Spain, and Italy or Ireland. In the 1990s, PIGS stood for Portugal, Greece, Spain, and Italy, but during the late 2009 European sovereign-debt crisis, Ireland replaced Italy as the I in PIGS. As the economy of Italy became affected by the crisis, I stood for either Italy or Ireland, or occasionally both." The first sentence is based on current usage of the term, in which I can stand for Italy, Ireland, or both countries, and the second sentence elaborates on the history of usage. Also, the word "some" is ambiguous and should be avoided as a weasel word.--SGCM (talk) 00:16, 26 August 2012 (UTC) If I may help, I first heard the acronym from Hans Redeker, BNP Paribas's currency chief: "BNP Paribas said the so-called "PIGS" (Portugal, Italy, Greece, and Spain) are dragging down the trade performance of the bloc." May 2008 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/ambroseevans_pritchard/2790810/Euro-suffering-from-reserve-currency-curse-as-investors-pull-out.html. Months later, the Financial Times, "Pigs in muck" Septembre 1, 2008. "Exciting countries get exciting acronyms, at least in financial circles. Fast-growing Brazil, Russia, India and China, for example, are called Brics, the very initials implying solid growth. Other countries are less fortunate. Take Portugal, Italy, Greece and Spain, sometimes described as the Pigs. It is a pejorative moniker but one with much truth." Ireland crashed about 2009. --Robertiki (talk) 17:22, 26 August 2012 (UTC) Yes. The European sovereign-debt crisis began in 2009, which was when Ireland became part of PIGS (CNBC 2009, BBC 2010, Telegraph 2009. Before the Eurocrisis in 2009, the I in PIGS was exclusively Italy.--SGCM (talk) 03:47, 27 August 2012 (UTC) I just wanted to note that it seams that PIGS is a part of an older set of mnemonic acronyms: BAFFLING PIGS and DUKS (BAFFLING = Belgium, Austria, Finland, France, Luxembourg, Ireland, Netherlands and Germany; PIGS = Portugal, Italy, Greece, and Spain. DUKS = Denmark, United Kingdom, and Sweden). Search for "BUFFLING PIGS" didn't return me any sources stating I in PIGS to be Ireland. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 18:15, 26 August 2012 (UTC) Before the Eurocrisis, the I in PIGS only stood for Italy. It was during the beginning of the European sovereign-debt crisis in 2009 that some sources began referring to I as Ireland and not Italy. Initially, the crisis didn't spread to Italy, thus it was excluded.--SGCM (talk) 03:45, 27 August 2012 (UTC) I broadly agree with most of what is stated above in this section. The question is finding the right words to express it. A point I'd pick up on in SGCM's suggestion is, "As the economy of Italy became affected by the crisis..." For one thing, it's difficult to put an actual reasoning behind the term. But in any case, there was never a break in Italy's association with the term over the period. Example from 2009: "The greatest problems, in the short term at least, are in the four Mediterranean economies known as the PIGS - Portugal, Italy, Greece and Spain. ... The drachma, the lira, the peseta and the Portuguese escudo (and the Irish punt - Ireland can be regarded as an honorary PIG) will all make a return as the PIGS plunge for the exit." Examples from 2008 and 2010 are in the article. For me, that's the substantive point. Use has always included Portugal, Italy, Greece and Spain. The association with Ireland, important as it is to state, is less permanent in character and has been seen that way from the get-go. (And without wanting to engage in WP:CRYSTAL balling, the association is already waning e.g. 2011, 2012 and others in the article.) So, for me, wording like what existed before Naumakos or like what was suggested by the 3O are more accurate and balanced in perspective and avoids over scripting the article from the perspective of recent events. --RA (talk) 08:48, 27 August 2012 (UTC) I think the problem here is that PIGS has two senses. The first, and most prominent sense, is that it refers southern European countries with similar economic environments (Portugal, Italy, Greece, Spain). The second, refers to countries that caused the Eurocrisis (Portugal, Ireland, Greece, Spain). If I recall from reading news articles in 2009, the crisis did not initially spread to Italy, hence it was excluded. As the Economist article states, "Italy avoided a housing bubble; its banks did not go bust. Employment held up: the unemployment rate is 8%, compared with over 20% in Spain. The budget deficit in 2011 will be 4% of GDP, against 6% in France." The inclusion of Ireland is becoming less common because Italy's economic troubles today are much worse than they were three years ago. It was the Eurocrisis that popularized the term (even if was coined much earlier), so the Eurocrisis sense of the acronym does not qualify as a recentism. Italy, unlike the other four countries, did not initiate the Eurocrisis.--SGCM (talk) 09:56, 27 August 2012 (UTC) It's interesting you use the term "caused the bailout". That reflects a lot of what the Bastasin reference in the article says, which has the measure of it IMO. I think the substance of what you are saying about there being "two senses" is right, though. There is the original meaning (which is still the primary meaning IMO) of it standing for the southern countries. In that sense, it is a pejorative term referring to (perceived) similarities of their economies. And there is the more recent sense, which is "to blame, isolate, and shame the weakest", as the Bastasin reference puts it, in light of the crisis. Hence Ireland's inclusion and why too Ireland, as it redeems itself, would be less associated with the term (e.g. the Economists "PIG no more?" article, etc.) in that sense. Teasing those two senses apart in a definite way would be difficult. But maybe a way to begin doing so would be to avoid stating the members of the term in the first line and instead give a chronology e.g. PIGS is an acronym used in the economics of Europe. Since the mid-1990s, the term has referred to the southern economies of Portugal, Italy, Greece, and Spain. During the financial crisis from 2008, the term was popularised as a way to refer to economies perceived as being weak. In particular, some economists used the "I" to refer to Ireland, or the acronym PIIGS to include to both Italy and Ireland, among other variants. --RA (talk) 11:49, 27 August 2012 (UTC) I agree that it's the primary meaning, especially now, with Italy's economy dragged further into the Eurocrisis. Your proposal, which represents both senses in the lead, is an excellent compromise. However, "crisis from 2008" should be substituted with "European sovereign-debt crisis in 2009," and "perceived as being weak" should be elaborated upon. Perhaps "perceived as being the impetus to the crisis"?--SGCM (talk) 12:02, 27 August 2012 (UTC) Taking as examples sources that say that PIGS includes Italy is useless, because many other sources include Ireland: BBC (here); Acronym finder (here): in this source is stated that PIGS, in its economic meaning, includes Ireland, while Italy may be indicated only "out" of economic significance; The term PIGS was born in the language of the mass media (a language, however, which is not free from various imperfections, especially in a technical field such as economics) and we should consider all sources. So, it is necessary to avoid sophisticated techniques: we should indicate the promiscuity of the term PIGS and follow the first proposal: "PIGS is an acronym that refers to the economies of Portugal, Greece, Spain, and Italy or Ireland. In the 1990s, PIGS stood for Portugal, Greece, Spain, and Italy, but during the late 2009 European sovereign-debt crisis, Ireland replaced Italy as the I in PIGS. As the economy of Italy became affected by the crisis, I stood for either Italy or Ireland, or occasionally both." - "Some economists": User:Rannpháirtí anaithnid, you said that it was a wrong expression!--Naumakos (talk) 19:59, 27 August 2012 (UTC) Acronym finder is not a reliable source. And doesn't Rannpháirtí anaithnid's proposal basically convey the same concepts? The only difference is in the wording.--SGCM (talk) 05:10, 28 August 2012 (UTC) Perhaps this will work? I think this is a compromise both parties can agree to: PIGS is an acronym used to describe the economies of Europe, specifically the economies of Spain, Portugal, Greece, and Italy or Ireland. Since the mid-1990s, the term has referred to the southern economies of Portugal, Italy, Greece, and Spain. During the European sovereign-debt crisis in 2009, the term was popularised as a way to refer to economies perceived as causing the crisis, including Ireland but sometimes excluding Italy, where the crisis had yet to spread. As the crisis has gotten larger in scope, economists have used the "I" to refer to Italy or Ireland, or the acronym PIIGS to include to both Italy and Ireland, among other variants. It describes both senses, and their historical context.--SGCM (talk) 05:19, 28 August 2012 (UTC) SGCM, I'm fine with your suggestions at 09:56, 27 August 2012. I'm a little cautious about saying these economies were the "impetus to the crisis" without further explanation, only because I can't see a RS that put it as baldly as that (mainly they would talk about these countries being heavily indebted, etc.) I'm not fine with Naumakos' suggestion. If the first line is to present anything, it should present the primary meaning (which is Portugal, Italy, Greece, Spain). I also do not see a time when Italy was ever "excluded" from the term. Even the BBC source cited above says, "Some analysts use PIIGS to include Italy - Europe's longstanding biggest debtor." Plenty of other sources from the same time, solely give Italy. How about the following: PIGS is an acronym used in European economics. Since the mid-1990s, the term has referred to the southern economies of Portugal, Italy, Greece, and Spain. During the European sovereign-debt crisis in 2009, the term was popularised as a way to refer to heavily-indebted economies, perceived as having been the imputes for the crisis. In this sense, the term included Ireland (and for a short time other economies), sometimes in place of Italy, and sometimes as PIIGS. I think this captures everything everyone wants to say, without presenting any one variety as the The Truth™. --RA (talk) 08:10, 28 August 2012 (UTC) I believe that full wording is the essential part of any acronym's definition, so giving the current wording in the first sentence is necessary. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 09:53, 28 August 2012 (UTC) I would normally agree. As I wrote, "If the first line is to present anything, it should present the primary meaning (which is Portugal, Italy, Greece, Spain)." That was the situation before Naumakos and was the suggestion of 3O too. See the revision here, which presents the acronym and its variants succinctly over two sentences. --RA (talk) 10:05, 28 August 2012 (UTC) I would note that right now the primary meaning seem to be the most recent one. The acronym is now used ways more frequently then before the crisis, and most people are going to look for the meaning of the word they came across in yesterdays' paper, TV show, etc. I just see no reason to make them scan through the rest of the lede, and I think many simply would stop at the first variant they hint. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 10:50, 28 August 2012 (UTC) So what is the most recent one? If the word had a single, clear, current meaning it would be easy. However, sometime circa. 2008 this word became a little muddied and doesn't have a single, clear, current meaning. I would still say, Portugal, Italy, Greece, Spain is the primary meaning. With Ireland being an "honourary" member as the Mail put it. That's how the balance of reliable sources would appear to treat it. I don't think two sentences is too much of a burden for a reader to get a picture of the term, its origins, current meanings and how it has changed. My main concern is that Naumakos' edits downplay Italy's association with the term (e.g. if "Before the financial crisis of 2008, some economists used the "I" to refer to Italy", what did the other economists use the "I" to refer to before 2008? And there is no mention of PIGS, one I, as referring to Italy during the crisis). That doesn't reflect use of the term either now or in the past. --RA (talk) 14:41, 28 August 2012 (UTC) As far as I can tell, the most recent meaning is "Portugal, Greece, Spain and Italy or Irland (or both)". It seems to me that fine-tuning the latest proposal by Naumakos may be more productive then altering the structure of the draft with each new revision. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 15:07, 28 August 2012 (UTC) OK. It doesn't do any harm. Here's a merge: PIGS is an acronym that refers to Portugal, Greece, Spain, and either Italy or Ireland (or both). First coined in the mid-1990s, the term originally referred to the southern European economies of Portugal, Italy, Greece, and Spain. During the European sovereign-debt crisis in 2009, the term was popularised as a way to refer to heavily-indebted economies, perceived as having been the imputes for the crisis. In this sense, the term sometimes included Ireland (and for a short time other economies), sometimes in place of Italy, and sometimes as PIIGS. --RA (talk) 15:24, 28 August 2012 (UTC) This version could benefit from some copy-edit, but it seems to address the issue in full. If Naumakos has no problems with it, I would be happy to close the case as resolved and leave the further tweaking of style to talk page discussion. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 17:56, 28 August 2012 (UTC) I would suggest removing "(and for a short time other economies)" because it really was only Ireland that was added to PIGS during the crisis. There should also be an explanation of why Italy isn't included in some 2009 uses of the acronym (the crisis did not initially spread to Italy).--SGCM (talk) 19:33, 28 August 2012 (UTC) Agree on the phrase in parenthesis, but are you sure that the details about Italy in 2009 indeed belong to the lede? — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 20:57, 28 August 2012 (UTC) Yes, it's mentioned in the Economist article as the reason why the I in PIGS changed from Italy to Ireland (Italy was not yet affected by the crisis, Ireland was).--SGCM (talk) 21:11, 28 August 2012 (UTC) Sorry, I should have made myself more clear: are you sure that this information belongs to the lede, not to the section of the article? Sure, this information is verified, but (given that the article is devoted to the abbreviation) the lede is already close to being a complete encyclopedic description of the tern, not the brief summary it is supposed to be. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 22:01, 28 August 2012 (UTC) No problem with removing the parenthesised stuff about other countries. It is addressed in the article. I'd tend to agree with Dmitrij about leaving the details re: Italy to later the article. The details of it can be better treated there. The addition of Ireland (in place of Italy) and the reasons for it are something that deserves a section for its own in the article. A positive outcome of this dispute is that there are now several RS in the article that address the question. --RA (talk) 22:21, 28 August 2012 (UTC) Is Naumakos still here? I think we've reached a resolution.--SGCM (talk) 05:42, 29 August 2012 (UTC) Given that user:Naumakos is inactive on Wikipedia since his last comment in this discussion, the consensual draft is based on his proposal and the concerns of both editors are addressed, I close this discussion as resolved. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 18:56, 29 August 2012 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

CBS Records

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by Steelbeard1 on 11:37, 27 August 2012 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute CBS Records (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved Steelbeard1 (talk · contribs) Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk · contribs) Dispute overview An editor wants to insert excessive info about a former incarnation of CBS Records which is now called Sony Music and has its own article. I tried a compromise of creating a new article about called CBS Records International which I hope will work. No it has not. Norton reverted again AFTER the request to post his comments to this noticeboard was posted on his own talk age. Have you tried to resolve this previously? Create a new article called CBS Records International How do you think we can help? By telling us if there can be one article which talks about two unrelated subjects with the same name. Opening comments by Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) There are 1,300 incoming internal links for the business entity known as "CBS Records" which was in operation starting about 1960 or 1961. In 1988 Sony bought CBS Records and was required to change the name to Sony Music Entertainment in 1991. CBS Records International is not a synonym for CBS Records, each division had their own president. The New York Times reports "Mr. Yetnikoff was instrumental in the sale of CBS Records to Sony in January 1988 for $2 billion. ... Mr. Yetnikoff was made president of CBS Records in 1975. Before that he was president of CBS Records International, which he took over in 1971." This shows that CBS Records International is not the same as CBS Records. Billboard describes the function of CBS Records in the following way: "CBS Records, under [Clive] Davis who had been administrative vice-president of Columbia Records, will continue to produce and market the Columbia, Epic, Harmony, Date, and Okeh record lines and the Columbia Legacy Collection. ..." This shows that CBS Records is not the same as Columbia Records, yet Steele has been changing links from CBS Records to Columbia Records despite the reliable source using CBS Records. By changing the names of these business entities to imperfect synonyms we are causing semantic drift in Wikipedia. We are substituting in subsidiaries and sister business entities and making subtle changes to what the reliable sources are using as the correct business name. Think of it as saying that Andrew Johnson wrote the Emancipation Proclamation instead of Abraham Lincoln. That would be obvious as incorrect to most people, but that is what we are doing here. Consensus was developed on the talk page to use the terms as they appear in the reliable sources such as Billboard and the New York Times but Steel reverted the consensus changes because he feels that a quorum was required to make changes and that the three day period allotted for consensus was insufficient. The changes he made today were unilateral, first by reverting the consensus changes three times and then unilaterally breaking up the article into new entities by cut and paste which lost the contribution history. You can see more of the discussion that caused the lockdown of the article for three days here. He is not backing up his claims with quotes from reliable sources but with his own original research. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 13:52, 27 August 2012 (UTC) What we need is for someone to walk back the cut and paste changes that were made by Steel and restore the articles histories that were damaged. We need the articles back to where we had consensus on the talk page so we can make changes from there. CBS Records ≠ CBS Records International ≠ Sony Music Entertainment. All existed at different times with different assets. All the automotive companies that have been absorbed by General Motors retain their own articles to preserve the incoming links, while still maintaining a section in the chronology of the current entity. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 18:08, 27 August 2012 (UTC) Opening comments by Steelbeard1 CBS Records International was Columbia Records' international arm founded in 1962 to release recordings on the CBS label as EMI's Columbia Graphophone Company unit owned the Columbia Records trademark outside North America. The "CBS Records" entity Norton is referring to was officially renamed Sony Music Entertainment on January 1, 1991. CBS Records was the name of both the record company and the record label. The record label was also officially renamed Columbia Records in 1991 after Sony acquired the rights to the trademark from EMI. Norton still does not understand that the history of the CBS Records company prior to 1991 properly belongs in the Sony Music article. I have created a compromise solution by creating a CBS Records disambig page. The purpose of disambig pages, of course, is to direct readers to the correct article and to alert editors whose wikilinks go to the wrong article to correct the link(s). I've been doing that since the 2006 CBS Records article was created. I've also had to do this regarding links to Columbia Records which should go to the unaffiliated former EMI label of the same name called Columbia Graphophone Company. The current CBS Records (2006) is not affiliated with any former CBS Records entity that is currently owned by Sony Music and therefore requires a separate article. Steelbeard1 (talk) 14:51, 27 August 2012 (UTC) CBS Records discussion Hello! I'm a DRN volunteer and I'll be assisting this request. The dispute resolution noticeboard is informal and nonbinding. Waiting on Richard Arthur Norton's comment.--SGCM (talk) 11:50, 27 August 2012 (UTC) Hi! I'm also a DRN volunteer and will be assisting SGCM in mediating this dispute. Electric Catfish 16:50, 27 August 2012 (UTC) Okay, I'm going to be opening this dispute now. Electric Catfish 13:28, 28 August 2012 (UTC) You asked us to tell you if you can make 1 article about 2 unrelated subjects with the same name. Usually, if 2 people share the same name, the name is made into a disambiguation page and the articles have the name followed by what the person is in parentheses. For example, Joseph West is a disambiguation page, and it lists different Joe Wests. The umpire's page is called Joe West (umpire), while the ex-governor's page is called Joseph West (Governor) . Any other questions? Electric Catfish 13:34, 28 August 2012 (UTC) That answers my question. A CBS Records disambig page has been started. The CBS Records article currently redirects to the disambig page. Any attempt by Norton to revert to the article he created will be immediately reverted back to the disambig page. Steelbeard1 (talk) 14:57, 28 August 2012 (UTC) So, if it's okay with Norton, I'm going to mark this dispute for a review by another DRN volunteer who will close it. Electric Catfish 15:31, 28 August 2012 (UTC) Hello! I'm another DRN volunteer and I endorse this resolution. Still, I would prefer to hear from Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) before closing this case. I notified him. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 16:06, 28 August 2012 (UTC) The problem still is CBS Records ≠ CBS Records International ≠ Columbia Records. The New York Times reports: "Mr. Yetnikoff was made president of CBS Records in 1975. Before that he was president of CBS Records International, which he took over in 1971." So we have concurrent presidents of each entity. We now have 1,300 incoming links to a disambiguation page instead of the proper entity "CBS Records" headed by Clive Davis. Business organizations are complex so we have to go with the reliable sources and not unreferenced original research. Clive Davis held multiple positions including heading Columbia Records. These changes should not have been made while Dispute resolution was going on here. They should not have been made against consensus at the CBS Records talk page. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 16:26, 28 August 2012 (UTC) Norton STILL DOES NOT GET IT. The CBS Records which Mr. Yetnikoff headed no longer goes by that name, it goes by the name Sony Music Entertainment. The CBS Records International article was created because it has its own history that goes back to 1960 when the American Columbia Records wanted to take control of their international distribution. Again, the reason for disambig pages is to aid in correcting Wikilinks that go to the wrong article. Remember that the company headed by Clive Davis is the 1960s and 1970s NOW goes by the Sony Music name, NOT CBS Records. So the corrected wikilink would be [[Sony Music|CBS Records]] and, despite what Norton stated, THERE WAS NO CONSENSUS as Norton could not wait for the time period required for consensus to develop which could take weeks. There were only THREE VOTES TOTAL regarding what to do with the CBS Records article. Norton has to face the cold, hard facts, that the incorrect wikilinks must be corrected article by article. But I'm sure the editors of the articles can easily fix the wikilinks to go to the correct article. Steelbeard1 (talk) 16:51, 28 August 2012 (UTC) Question for Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ): Steelbeard1 explained his understanding of timeline of companies with "CBS Records" pattern in their names. Could you please state your version of timeline as precisely as possible? — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 17:50, 28 August 2012 (UTC) I am not arguing that the timeline is wrong. Let me explain, I started editing when I clicked on a link to "CBS Records" and was brought to the article that is now called CBS Records (2006) and realized it was incorrect. I checked and found ~1,300 back links that were landing on an incorrect page. My argument is that "CBS Records" ≠ CBS Records International ≠ Columbia Records ≠ Sony Music Entertainment. Sony Music Entertainment = "CBS Records" + assets from EMI. The problem is that wikipedia:consensus was established at Talk:CBS Records (2006) (please read it) to have the 1,300 incoming links land at "CBS Records" which had the history of that business entity up until it was sold to Sony and had a list of the presidents of the company and how the company fit into the larger CBS Corporation and how it fit into "CBS - Columbia Group", the operating group within CBS. We do that for all historic companies even when they are sold to other conglomerates. We still have articles on all the companies that became General Motors and we also have their history in the larger article on General Motors. An administrator locked the article for three days for consensus to develop and it was decided two-to-one that we would have the incoming links land at "CBS Records" with a short history of that business entity as it existed from 1960 to 1991. Steel has argued that we did not have a quorum for the consensus and that the three days allotted was not sufficient. He reverted the consensus three times and split the article with cutting and pasting which lost the article history. He is also changing the 1,300 incoming links against consensus to what he thinks the reliable source should have used as the business entity, such as Columbia Records. We have to use what the reliable source uses unless it was retracted or can be proved with other reliable sources that it was incorrect. In summary: "CBS Records" ≠ CBS Records International ≠ Columbia Records ≠ Sony Music Entertainment. Sony Music Entertainment = CBS Records as it was in 1988 + assets from EMI + additional assets added later. We have to use the exact terms or risk semantic drift. We should not be substituting in imprecise synonyms such as a subsidiary or a sister business group. Wikipedia is about using the term that is used by reliable sources, Steel is using his own knowledge to substitute in what he thinks is the correct business entity, arguing that the reliable sources are wrong. I want him to stop making changes that go against consensus and stick to the terms used by the reliable sources. He is also showing bad faith by continuing to change the incoming links when asked to wait until a decision was made here as to whether to override consensus, or to reaffirm the consensus from the talk page. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 18:43, 28 August 2012 (UTC) There is only one entity calling itself CBS Records today, the company founded in 2006. That's why the disambig page was created so the erroneous link could be corrected using the instructions given above. Those "reliable sources" Norton mentioned were correct at the time of their publication but became outdated after 1990 when the CBS Records label was renamed Columbia Records and the CBS Records company renamed Sony Music on January 1, 1991. Steelbeard1 (talk) 18:51, 28 August 2012 (UTC) As best as I can sum things up tersely: Steel argues that we already have an article called Sony Music Entertainment, the current conglomerate, so we do not need an article on the earlier incarnation called "CBS Records". My argument is that we do need it because we have 1,300 incoming links to it. He argues all we have to do is change the 1,300 incoming links to Sony Music Entertainment or to Columbia Records or to CBS Records International or some other close synonym. Consensus was to preserve them since they were precise and the substitutions were less precise and were based on original research. To get his way Steel has reverted back to his version four times before consensus here where it was brought up at 3RR and he has reverted an additional three times after consensus was formed on the talk page to preserve the 1,300 incoming links. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 19:34, 28 August 2012 (UTC) How many times do I have to say that the only entity that exists today which calls itself CBS Records is the one founded in 2006. All other entities go by other names, so the 1,300 or so incoming links need to be fixed. I've done about 100 or so of them already. How? Once again, [[Sony Music|CBS Records]] or [[Columbia Records|CBS Records]] regarding the text mentioning "CBS Records" prior to 1991. Steelbeard1 (talk) 19:41, 28 August 2012 (UTC) ... You do not have to say it ever again, we got it the first time you said it, it is just that it is not relevant. An encyclopedia isn't about "now" it is about now and about the past. The 1,300 incoming links are to the previous entity. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 22:07, 28 August 2012 (UTC) Although CBS Records was renamed to Sony Music Entertainment, having an article on the earlier iterations of a company is not unheard of. Computing Tabulating Recording Company and IBM, as an example. American Record Corporation, which is an earlier iteration of the Sony CBS Records, also has its own article. The new page should then be linked on the disambiguation page that Steelbeard1 created.--SGCM (talk) 19:47, 28 August 2012 (UTC) ...and such a new page has already been created, CBS Records International regarding the international arm of Columbia Records which was launched in 1962. Steelbeard1 (talk) 19:50, 28 August 2012 (UTC) This source says there was a president of CBS Records and at the same time a president of CBS Records International, so CBS Records International ≠ CBS Records: "Mr. Yetnikoff was instrumental in the sale of CBS Records to Sony in January 1988 for $2 billion. ... Mr. Yetnikoff was made president of CBS Records in 1975. Before that he was president of CBS Records International, which he took over in 1971." --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 22:15, 28 August 2012 (UTC) That doesn't include pre-1960 CBS Records, does it?--SGCM (talk) 19:52, 28 August 2012 (UTC) What pre-1960 CBS Records??? The Columbia Broadcasting System did not use the "CBS Records" brand until 1962 when CBS Records International was launched. Steelbeard1 (talk) 19:58, 28 August 2012 (UTC) Just looked it up, apparantely when ARC was acquired by CBS in 1938, the company was renamed the Columbia Recording Corporation. Perhaps creating a separate article for that will satisfy Richard Arthur Norton's concerns.--SGCM (talk) 20:07, 28 August 2012 (UTC) Now that is getting anal retentive. While the official name of Atlantic Records is Atlantic Recording Corporation, the article name is still Atlantic Records. That is getting too silly Steelbeard1 (talk) 20:16, 28 August 2012 (UTC) It technically is a separate entity from Columbia Records, a label which still operates today, and CBS Records International, which didn't begin until 1962. The link could be redirected to ARC, which is another option. I'm trying to address Richard Arthur Norton's concerns here, to reach a compromise between both parties. Disputes over technicalities are basically the bread and butter of DRN (just look at the other disputes on this page!), so it isn't surprising. ;)--SGCM (talk) 20:26, 28 August 2012 (UTC) Another interesting point, the Columbia Recording Corporation was renamed to CBS Records in 1953. So there was a CBS Records prior to CBS Records International.--SGCM (talk) 20:44, 28 August 2012 (UTC) Any linked proof of the existence of a "CBS Records" entity prior to 1961? Steelbeard1 (talk) 20:54, 28 August 2012 (UTC) Probably it is time to collect evidence? References, supporting the fate of this or that "CBS Records"? — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 20:50, 28 August 2012 (UTC) "After the acquisition, another name change was instituted, and the company was known as the Columbia Recording Corporation until a second change took place in 1953 when CBS Records was established as a Division of CBS, Inc." From the Journal of the Audio Engineering Society: Volume 38. Google books has a snippet to verify it, but the preview's not available.--SGCM (talk) 20:57, 28 August 2012 (UTC) Arbitrary break This 1959 Billboard piece at [1] mentioned Epic and Columbia president Goddard Lieberson but no mention of a "CBS Records." Steelbeard1 (talk) 21:00, 28 August 2012 (UTC) See here. The snippet for the Journal of the Audio Engineering Society.--SGCM (talk) 21:02, 28 August 2012 (UTC) That link is not trustworthy as it does not show the whole page and the journal in question was published in 1990. The trustworthy links are for old publications produced prior to 1960 such as the Billboard magazine articles I like to show. Steelbeard1 (talk) 21:10, 28 August 2012 (UTC) The Billboard magazine article only mentions the label, but not the subsidiary that owns it. Either way, can we agree that the Columbia Recording Corporation predates CBS Records International? I think that creating a separate article for the Columbia Recording Corporation solves the issues raised by the other party.--SGCM (talk) 21:16, 28 August 2012 (UTC) But "Columbia Recording Corp" is still basically Columbia Records? Remember the ATlantic Records comparison I used to shoot down your argument. They had an in-house publication published by "Columbia Records Inc" such as this one published in 1959 at [2] which allows you to search for text. Nothing mentioning "CBS Records" as I already checked. As for the Billboard link I provided above, scroll down to page 7 to look at the ad for the then new Johnny Cash single. Below the Columbia Records logo, it gives the trademark info as well as "Division of Columbia Broadcasting System Inc." Steelbeard1 (talk) 21:20, 28 August 2012 (UTC) Columbia Recording Corporation is not the same as Columbia Records. The Columbia Recording Corporation was what the American Recording Corporation was renamed to when CBS bought it in the 1930s. ARC, before it was renamed Columbia, owned Columbia Records, but the label is separate from the actual corporation, and in fact predates it (so the Atlantic analogy does not apply, these are two separate corporate entities with seperate histories). The CRC owned multiple labels, not just Columbia Records. The label still operates today, but the corporation does not.--SGCM (talk) 21:26, 28 August 2012 (UTC) The Sony Music article gives the entire history going back to 1929 when ARC was formed. The Columbia Records article goes back to 1888 when the Columbia Phonograph Company was formed. Columbia celebrates its 125th anniversary next year and they note that in their official web site. Steelbeard1 (talk) 21:37, 28 August 2012 (UTC) Yes, the Sony Music article does include the history of the ARC. And the ARC has a separate article. And so should the CRC, if only to resolve the dispute with Norton and the other parties over the issue of incoming links. There's enough to be written on the CRC for a separate article, and I think it's a workable compromise. If the ARC, CBS Records International, and Sony Music all have separate articles, it seems odd to leave the CRC out. There is another option: We could merge all three articles into a History of Sony Music Entertainment article and make everyone happy.--SGCM (talk) 21:42, 28 August 2012 (UTC) But when did the CRC become Columbia Records Inc.? We still have some holes to fill. The CRC material is most appropriate for the Sony Music article. Steelbeard1 (talk) 21:48, 28 August 2012 (UTC) No clue. Anyhow, the problem is, if we have articles on some of the past iterations of the Sony Music (like the ARC and CBS Records International), it makes little sense to exclude the iteration (CRC) between ARC and CBS Records International. What do you think about the option of merging all the past iterations of Sony Music into a single article (History of Sony Music Entertainment)? That's another way of solving the dispute.--SGCM (talk) 21:55, 28 August 2012 (UTC) Without sufficient referenced material to justify a separate article, the solution is to keep all the history in the Sony Music article. Steelbeard1 (talk) 22:00, 28 August 2012 (UTC) Are you supporting a merge of the ARC (record company) and CBS Records International articles back into the Sony article? For consistency.--SGCM (talk) 22:02, 28 August 2012 (UTC) In response to the bickering about consensus. There is no official time limit or number of !votes for determining consensus. Consensus is vaguely defined on Wikipedia, but is usually based on the "quality of the arguments" and not on anything quantitative.--SGCM (talk) 19:56, 28 August 2012 (UTC) You are off on tangents, please stay focused on what we have asked to be resolved. The issue is what should the landing article be for the 1,300 links that are "CBS Records". It is now landing at a disambiguation page. Consensus on the talk page was to have them land at an article on "CBS Records" as it existed from about 1960 to 1991. Steel has moved that article to CBS Records International. This reference from the New York Times says that CBS Records International ≠ CBS Records: "Mr. Yetnikoff was instrumental in the sale of CBS Records to Sony in January 1988 for $2 billion. ... Mr. Yetnikoff was made president of CBS Records in 1975. Before that he was president of CBS Records International, which he took over in 1971." --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 01:19, 29 August 2012 (UTC) Norton is showing himself to the Wikipedia community that is following this to be TOTALLY CLUELESS. I have given the landing points MANY, MANY MANY TIMES. So I will say it again. The landing point in regards to the CBS Records label is Columbia Records. The landing point for the CBS Records company is again Sony Music. Although based upon the context of the material, it could also land on the CBS Records International article AND ONCE AGAIN, ALL MATERIAL SUCH AS THE NEW YOUR TIMES ARTICLE NORTON MENTIONED WHICH WERE PUBLISHED BEFORE 1991 AND/OR MENTIONS EVENTS WHICH TOOK PLACE BEFORE 1991 BECAME OUTDATED BECAUSE THAT WAS WHEN THE NAME CHANGES TOOK PLACE. COMPRENDE???? Steelbeard1 (talk) 01:44, 29 August 2012 (UTC) Wikipedia requires a proper landing page for the 1,300 links, the term should not be going to a disambiguation page. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 02:38, 29 August 2012 (UTC) ONCE AGAIN, the disambig page is DESIGNED and INTENDED to instuct editors on WHAT LANDING PAGE to choose. So I will post the statement which is on the bottom of each disambig page. Steelbeard1 (talk) 02:43, 29 August 2012 (UTC) Wouldn't a straightforward resolution be to use a bot to change the links from CBS Records to CBS Records International? Make a request and one of the bot operators will do it for you.--SGCM (talk) 05:40, 29 August 2012 (UTC) That would be fine for recording artists outside North America. As for artists from the US or Canada on Columbia, Epic, etc. with a mention of then parent CBS Reocrds, that erroneous Wikilink should land at Sony Music. Steelbeard1 (talk) 10:39, 29 August 2012 (UTC) A proper landing page called CBS Records or CBS Records (1962) is the obvious and elegant solution for those 1300 links. Rothorpe (talk) 12:42, 29 August 2012 (UTC) The "CBS Records" landing place is the disambig page so that is not the proper landing place but serves, as I mentioned before, as an aid to assist the editor to find the correct landing place. The "CBS Records (1962)" is already the CBS Records International article regarding the operations of Columbia/CBS Records outside North America. Another complication is CBS Records became the name of the parent record company in 1966 which is now Sony Music. Steelbeard1 (talk) 12:55, 29 August 2012 (UTC) We have an article on the international arm (CBS Records International) of CBS Records, but not its domestic counterpart. This is why I suggested a separate article for the Columbia Recording Corporation (later renamed CBS Records). Perhaps we should create an article for CRC/CBS Records that operated between 1938 and 1991, and merge the international article into it? Or create a History of Sony Music Entertainment article as a landing page with the history of the ARC Corporation, CRC, CBS Records, CBS Records International merged together, which I think is a better solution.--SGCM (talk) 12:57, 29 August 2012 (UTC) My proposal: Create a History of Sony Music Entertainment article. Merge the American Record Corporation and CBS Records International articles into it. Then use that article as a landing page for all the incoming links from CBS Records. Large corporate entities usually have separate history articles (like History of Microsoft and History of IBM), and this should solve the problems raised over the landing page.--SGCM (talk) 13:02, 29 August 2012 (UTC) Oppose. This really complicates matters when the simple solution is to put all the history of the record company into Sony Music Entertainment and the entire history of the record label into Columbia Records which proudly celebrates its 125th Anniversary next year. Steelbeard1 (talk) 13:05, 29 August 2012 (UTC) Then why did you create a separate article for CBS Records International? The problem here is consistency. If you've split CBS Records International from the Sony Music page, you might as well split all the previous iterations. Then are you supporting a merge of the American Record Corporation and CBS Records International articles into the Sony Music article?--SGCM (talk) 13:09, 29 August 2012 (UTC) Because the operations OUTSIDE NORTH AMERICA have its own history that go back to 1960 when Columbia/CBS wanted to have their own identity outside North America and eventually control international distribution. Steelbeard1 (talk) 13:18, 29 August 2012 (UTC) Doesn't the domestic CBS Records/CRC have its own history as well? This inconsistency is exactly the problem. You split CBS Records International from Sony Music, but kept the domestic CBS Records (1938-1991) in the Sony article. It makes little sense to split the international arm of a subsidiary but not the actual subsidiary. Although it was done in good faith, you should have discussed splitting the article before doing so.--SGCM (talk) 13:23, 29 August 2012 (UTC) Arbitrary break Can someone explain why a business entity called "CBS Records" with 1,300 incoming links is a phantom that never existed. The New York Times reports: --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 13:28, 29 August 2012 (UTC) Yetnikoff Stepping Down As Chief of CBS Records. No single replacement for Mr. Yetnikoff was named. CBS Records said Tommy Mottola, president of domestic operations; Robert Summer, president of CBS Records International, and Neil Keating, president of the Columbia Record Club, would run day-to-day operations, reporting directly to Mr. Ohga. It said the board would consider long-term succession plans." This shows that "CBS Records" ≠ CBS Records International if they each have their own concurrent presidents. CBS Records Inc., in the first significant management shift directed by its new corporate parent, the Sony Corporation, plans to move its classical music ... CBS Records Ex-Chief Barred at Headquarters‎. Walter R. Yetnikoff, the colorful former chief executive of CBS Records who suddenly stepped aside earlier this month, has been ordered not to trespass on CBS ... CBS Records' Dispute Seen. A dispute is emerging over the price that the Sony Corporation will pay for CBS Records, someone close to the negotiations said yesterday. Sony agreed to pay ... He's CBS Records' chief star-maker‎. As president of CBS Records, he has helped turn some of rock's hottest newcomers into hitmakers. President of the world's largest ... Steelbeard's argument is that the history of the CBS Records entity is already included in the Sony Music Entertainment article, which it is. My position is that I find it inconsistent to keep the domestic CBS Records as part of the Sony Music Entertainment article, but allow the CBS Records International article to stay separate. It's either that both should remain merged in the Sony Music article, or both should be separate articles.--SGCM (talk) 13:32, 29 August 2012 (UTC) We already reached consensus on the talk page to have an article called "CBS Records". I am here to have that consensus enforced, not re-argue it, if you have a dissenting opinion, it should be made at the talk page. That is the dispute. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 13:44, 29 August 2012 (UTC) I'm just repeating Steelbeard's argument. It's not my own, if that's what you're implying.--SGCM (talk) 13:47, 29 August 2012 (UTC) We already reached consensus on the talk page to have an article called "CBS Records". I am here to have that consensus enforced, not re-argue it, if you have a dissenting opinion, it should be made at the talk page. That is the dispute we need resolved. I also need admin help in reversing the damage that Steel did when he made the changes when he refused to accept that consensus on the talk page did not agree with him. we now have cut and paste moves that damages the article histories and we have talk pages that are no longer linked to the proper article page. All of this arguing about other business entities is tangential to the issue being asked to be resolved. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 13:44, 29 August 2012 (UTC) About consensus. Consensus does not mean there is a prohibition on discussion. One of the purposes of DRN is for wider discussion, by third party volunteers. DRN is not a forum for administrative enforcement. As much as I disagree with Steel's article splitting, I think the discussion should continue.--SGCM (talk) 13:58, 29 August 2012 (UTC) A key admin has settled the issue by making CBS Records a disambig page intended to direct editors, AGAIN AS I AM SAYING FOR THE UMPTEENTH TIME, to change their wikilinks so they can land to the correct article associated with the correct former CBS Records entity, whether that entity is Columbia Records, CBS Records International or Sony Music Entertainment. Steelbeard1 (talk) That is incorrect. You made the unilateral decision for a disambiguation page, not an administrator, in this edit] when you disagreed with the consensus established on the talk page. You argued that not enough people had responded for there to be true consensus. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 14:55, 29 August 2012 (UTC) Administrators don't settle content disputes, which is what this is. The administrator made the move because of a speedy deletion request, but that has no impact on the actual content dispute.--SGCM (talk) 14:14, 29 August 2012 (UTC) Consensus was to have an article called "CBS Records" and not have the 1,300 links land on a disambiguation page and consensus was to not change the precise CBS Records links into an imprecise Columbia or Sony as you have been doing. Steel was asked to stop and wait for someone to answer at dispute resolution and he is still making the changes. It was his unilateral solution to make it a disambiguation page, when he refused to accept the consensus that was established. I am sure he is very knowledgeable on the recording industry but in Wikipedia decisions on style are made by consensus and facts are tied to reliable sources, not original research. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 14:20, 29 August 2012 (UTC) Again, THERE WAS NO CONSENSUS AS THAT CAN TAKE WEEKS AND NORTON COULD NOT WAIT FOR OTHER ADMINS AND EDITORS TO GIVE THEIR INPUT. A key admin, again, has taken action by making CBS Records a disambig page and as for those 1,300 or so links that go to the wrong CBS Records which Norton claims? Why do you think disambig pages exist, Norton????? I had stated this OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN that disambig pages aid editors in fixing incorrect wikilinks to land to the correct article. Although it's fine to be bold, Steel should have discussed the changes before making them, especially if they're controversial. Regardless, DRN is now the venue to further discuss the changes and whether they were appropriate.--SGCM (talk) 14:27, 29 August 2012 (UTC) A disambiguation page is not always the solution, although it is for certain circumstances. There's actually a guideline on when it's not appropriate, see WP:PRIMARYTOPIC.--SGCM (talk) 14:28, 29 August 2012 (UTC) I was not me who was bold, it was Norton. Norton was inserting too much info about the former CBS Records entities into the current CBS Records article which was objectionable. Steelbeard1 (talk) 14:46, 29 August 2012 (UTC) Agreed, he shouldn't have done that.--SGCM (talk) 15:52, 29 August 2012 (UTC) The word came from Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Damage at CBS Records. Norton is awarded a trout. Steelbeard1 (talk) 14:58, 29 August 2012 (UTC) Agreed that Norton handled this dispute badly. It was a primary topic dispute and he should have stated that right off the bat. What Cunningham suggested in the ANI is exactly what NAM should have done.--SGCM (talk) 15:41, 29 August 2012 (UTC) Summary of the dispute thus far For any new DRN volunteers interested in participating in the dispute, this is the basic summary of the (very long) discussion above. The current dispute is based on two issues. Which of the past iterations of Sony Music deserve separate articles? Should CBS Records (1938-1991)? Should CBS Records International (1962-1991)? Both, only one, or neither? Is CBS Records (1938-1991) the primary topic? Should CBS Records be disambiguated or should it be disambiguated at CBS Records (disambiguation)? Or is CBS Records (2006) the primary topic? Or neither. These are the positions of the two parties: Richard Arthur Norton believes that CBS Records (1938-1991) deserves a separate article, that it is the primary topic of the CBS Records page, and that a disambiguation is not necessary. Steelbeard1 believes that CBS Records (1938-1991) should remain merged with the Sony Music article, that CBS Records International should be split from Sony Music, and that CBS Records should remain a disambiguation. Both parties have firmly established their opinions on the dispute. So how do we compromise?--SGCM (talk) 14:55, 29 August 2012 (UTC)  Comment: This has been brought up at WP: AN. Electric Catfish 15:38, 29 August 2012 (UTC) I prefer it put this way: the 1,300 incoming links called "CBS Records" should land at an article on CBS Records as the company existed up until it was absorbed by Sony. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 16:08, 29 August 2012 (UTC) Norton's pitch is full of holes as the purpose of the DAB page is to direct editors to correct wikilinks which go to the wrong article. So the CBS Records article should remain a DAB page because the current incarnation of CBS Records is not related whatsoever to the CBS Records entities that existed prior to 1991 which now go by the Columbia Records and Sony Music names. Steelbeard1 (talk) 16:13, 29 August 2012 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Controversies at the 2012 Summer Olympics

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by Andromedean on 08:05, 29 August 2012 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Controversies at the 2012 Summer Olympics (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved Andromedean (talk · contribs) Sport and politics (talk · contribs) Dispute overview Constant editing and reversion without sufficient reason. Petty excuses to censor the article, failure to declare any conflict of interest. Have you tried to resolve this previously? Dispute Resolution, and extensive discussions and edits How do you think we can help? I really don't believe the RFC has been going anywhere. We need an expeienced Wikipedia editor to negotiate and clarify when rules are being broken or not. Opening comments by Sport and politics Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks. Controversies at the 2012 Summer Olympics discussion Please do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary. The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Bulgaria

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by Ximhua on 04:29, 25 August 2012 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Bulgaria (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved Ximhua (talk · contribs) WilliamThweatt (talk · contribs) Dispute overview Should 681 AD be added as Establishment date for Bulgaria in the Info box Sources: Encyclopedia Britanica Bulgaria, Indiana University, 1987, p. 53 Erik Kooper (2006), The Medieval Chronicle V, p. 97 R. J. Crampton (2005), A Concise History Of Bulgaria, Cambridge University Press, p. 9 Francisco Rodríguez Adrados (2005), A History of the Greek Language, BRILL, p. 265 M. Avrum Ehrlich (2008), Encyclopedia of the Jewish Diaspora, ABC-CLIO, p. 954 Juliet Lodge (2010), The 2009 Elections to the European Parliament, Palgrave MacMillan, p. 60 Have you tried to resolve this previously? It was discussed on Talk page, at the request for mediation I was advised to try DRN again. How do you think we can help? Review the sources provided and advise if 681 AD is indeed internationally recognized as foundation date for Bulgaria. If so, then it should be in the info box. Opening comments by WilliamThweatt Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks. Bulgaria discussion Please do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary. Hi, I'm a volunteer here at DRN. I looked at the talk page and there hasn't been any sustained discussion there since the previous mediation request was closed. I really think you should give that another go first - the second thing is that the mediation request was declined as all didn't sign on to participate. Has that changed? Steven Zhang Help resolve disputes! 04:05, 26 August 2012 (UTC) The dispute is between me and WilliamThweatt, I've initiated this here as the talk page doesn't seem to be productive and I'm really hoping that in a mediated environment as this one, we'll reach out a solution faster. I really don't see the point to go back to the talk page, as it moves away from a fact based discussion. As Wikipedia is encyclopedic content and not a forum, can you help lead us to a solution please? Ximhua (talk) 21:38, 26 August 2012 (UTC) I'm another regular volunteer here at DRN. What I actually see at the mediation page is that they recommended an RFC, not a return to DRN. However, I also see that you listed a RFC at the RFC request board on August 9, but then (not unreasonably) removed it when it had not been processed into an active RFC by August 25. It appears to me that the use of the request board for requesting RFC's seems to be not working very well at the moment. Could I suggest that you try again to request an RFC using the regular method for requesting an RFC? In your request, which ought to be placed at Talk:Bulgaria#Sovereignty_dates_in_the_Infobox, you might include a link to the prior DRN discussion on this issue. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 16:50, 27 August 2012 (UTC) I would've done an RFC, but I feel it will be better if the environment is moderated, as spirits run high on this simple topic apparently. Thus, would you kindly consider helping resolve this under DRN? Thanks! Ximhua (talk) 01:47, 28 August 2012 (UTC) I think it'd help if all editors involved were willing to participate. We can't really be of much help if half of those involved in the dispute aren't willing to come to the table. Steven Zhang Help resolve disputes! 02:29, 28 August 2012 (UTC) Hi! I'm yet another volunteer at DRN. I would do the RfC, as you were told to do, but since it hasn't worked out for you, I see why you thought to try DRN. I also see, much as Steven has, that not all of the involved are participating, It is critical in a DRN case that all of the involved participate so there is fair discussion and a conclusion can be reached with everyone getting "their side of the story" in. There isn't much more I have to offer than reiterate what Steven has said about not having a sustained discussion on the talk page before coming here. I'm not seeing one. Could you give me a link to that discussion? Thank you.  Joe  ₪  13:42, 28 August 2012 (UTC) I would note that WilliamThweatt wasn't notified of this discussion. I notified him. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 18:06, 28 August 2012 (UTC) Thanks for notifying WilliamThweatt, I thought the system will notify him. The issue with involving many editors is that last time this was done (Request for mediation), the editors were invited, then they didn't participate and the request for mediation was rejected, as editors didn't participate, so it is a bit of catch 22. I welcome other editor's participation, as long as they do participate and that their lack of participation is not used as grounds to reject the request. Ximhua (talk) 23:19, 28 August 2012 (UTC) Hi! I'm also a DRN volunteer and will help co-mediate this dispute. Please note that we much get a statement from WilliamThweatt before we can start. Electric Catfish 22:57, 29 August 2012 (UTC) Prior DRN case on Bulgaria - For the record, the prior DRN case on this exact topic is archived at Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard/Archive_40#Bulgaria. There is lots of good background material there, and quite a few editors participated. The resolution was not black-and-white. During that case, I posted a note at the Countries project to get some outside input, and I believe that two editors replied and both felt that 681 should not be in the InfoBox (instead it should start with 1878). --Noleander (talk) 01:31, 30 August 2012 (UTC) If you look at the talk page, there are easily 10 editors who feel 681 should be in the info box. However, I don't believe this should be a "who can shout louder" contest, but a fact based discussion. On the fact side, every reputable source you check will tell you that Modern Bulgaria started in 681 (I've attached some sources and you can also google "Bulgaria established"). At the end of the day Wikipedia is about encyclopedic content, not a forum space. On getting statement from WilliamThweatt, what is my recourse if he doesn't provide one? As if he doesn't provide one, then we are again in the same situation as with the Request for Mediation (when the other party simply refused to participate). Wouldn't you agree, that such a behavior is in fact setting up the rule: "whoever spends more of their time in Wikipedia and can do most edits wins" Again if you go to the talk page, you will see that there are more independent comments about keeping 681 in, however these editors are not as engaged as the two or three editors that feel otherwise. Please, help me to move this forward, as again this is encyclopedic content and we should be dealing with reputable proven and established sources, not opinions. Ximhua (talk) 15:51, 30 August 2012 (UTC) Ximhua (talk) 15:51, 30 August 2012 (UTC) Noleander, I checked the countries project and I didn't see anyone reply to your post actually http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Countries#Help_needed_re:_foudnation_dates_in_InfoBox_for_Bulgaria Ximhua (talk) 15:58, 30 August 2012 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Luigi di Bella

Dispute resolved successfully. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by Robertiki on 16:32, 26 August 2012 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Talk:Luigi di Bella (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved Robertiki (talk · contribs) Yobol (talk · contribs) Dispute overview I am uneasy about some information removal, and not sure (don't understand) the justifications from the cancel party. Have you tried to resolve this previously? Opened one talk page: "Parallel studies" and followed up in the talk page "Books" with request for explanation about more cancellations. How do you think we can help? Explain me where I am wrong, if I am wrong, anche if not, explain to Yobol that some of the information he as cancelled should be restored. Opening comments by Yobol Summary of dispute, since original poster did not give enough information for outside input to be useful: There seem to be two different disputes: 1) Robertiki wishes to use this source in the article about di Bella. A quick scan of this source shows no mention of di Bella, so mention of this source would seem to be WP:OR. Talk page discussion about this can be found here. 2) Robertiki objected to my removal of a list of published works by di Bella (see diff here). My main objection to such lists is that Wikipedia is not a CV; we can certainly discuss di Bella's works if they have received significant coverage in independent reliable sources. However, I object to the apparently arbitrary list of di Bella's works if they have not been noted to be significant, per WP:UNDUE. Review of possibly relevant guidelines for guidance in such cases have not been helpful, so further input on this from outside editors is appreciated. Yobol (talk) 02:44, 27 August 2012 (UTC) Luigi di Bella discussion Please do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary. I think we can open it for discussion. Just a couple points before. I cannot get past the paywall for Combined effects of melatonin and all-trans retinoic acid and somatostatin on breast cancer cell proliferation and death: Molecular basis for the anticancer effect of these molecules, so could someone send a copy by email? A source about Di Bella that has no mention of di Bella isn't nessesarily Original research, although it might be. ~~Ebe123~~ → report 11:16, 27 August 2012 (UTC) I can confirm the source doesn't mention Bella. The addition here: [3] on the basis of that reference is original research (this doesn't mean anything for other references, just this one). IRWolfie- (talk) 18:42, 28 August 2012 (UTC) Sorry, can't help with the full text. But I found a reference that makes a connection with Di Bella to that research: https://www.medify.com/insights/article/22532966/combined-effects-of-melatonin-and-all-trans-retinoic-acid-and-somatostatin-on-breast-cancer-cell-proliferation-and-death-molecular-basis-for-the-anticancer-effect-of-these-molecules where I read, under "Similar Articles": "Evaluation of an unconventional cancer treatment (the Di Bella multitherapy): results of phase II trials in Italy. Italian Study Group for the Di Bella Multitherapy Trails.", which is a link to: https://www.medify.com/insights/article/9915729/evaluation-of-an-unconventional-cancer-treatment-the-di-bella-multitherapy-results-of-phase-ii-trials-in-italy-italian-study-group-for-the-di-bella-multitherapy-trails?ref=related --Robertiki (talk) 16:18, 27 August 2012 (UTC) See, the fact that these works are considered similar doesn't make this research related to that of di Bella (or Di Bella?). If the work speculated on his research, it could be used in the article in some way, but it doesn't; thus it doesn't belong to the article about di Bella (or Di Bella?). That said, it might find its place in the article about the topic it belongs to, if it is needed there. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 16:35, 27 August 2012 (UTC) An automated algorithm for some website suggesting one is related to the other isn't enough. Secondary sources like academic review articles making the link between the papers is what is needed, otherwise it is original research. On wikipedia we can't accept original research (see WP:NOR). IRWolfie- (talk) 18:45, 28 August 2012 (UTC) An automated algorithm sees what humans shouldn't see ? :-) I am kidding, but ... --Robertiki (talk) 00:08, 31 August 2012 (UTC) Comment - I've looked at the article & the diffs identified above, and I concur with user Yobol's opinion on both issues: (1) the "Combined effects of melatonin ..." source should not be used; and (2) the list of publications is not appropriate for the article. --Noleander (talk) 00:43, 30 August 2012 (UTC) Before this case was opened, I argued on article's talk page that there is nothing wrong with inclusion of list of works. After rethinking the issue I would say that the list indeed is inappropriate in the spirit of WP:LINKFARM. Does anybody know any more detailed document on the issue? — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 22:02, 30 August 2012 (UTC) I'm not aware of a guideline that directly talks about how to decide which publications to include. Some related guidelines are: Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lists of works, Wikipedia:Layout#Works_or_Publications_or_Bibliography, and Wikipedia:WikiProject_Science/Guidelines. The rule that I've observed in biographical articles is: for authors, musicians, & artists, a complete list of works/publications is acceptable, even desirable. But for other kinds of persons (scientists, academics, etc) only notable works that are heavily referenced by peers should be listed. --Noleander (talk) 23:28, 30 August 2012 (UTC) That's a heavy handicap, how do you *measure* "heavily referenced" ? I would say that to evaluate that you need to do ... original research. There should a more objective criteria. Anyway I am stopping here, I am no Di Bella fan, but I simply noted an interesting connection. --Robertiki (talk) 00:08, 31 August 2012 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User talk:SudoGhost

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by Mr. Vernon on 06:25, 31 August 2012 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute User talk:SudoGhost (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved Mr. Vernon (talk · contribs) SudoGhost (talk · contribs) Mjbinfo (talk · contribs) Dispute overview User:Mjbinfo appears to be one Marcia J. Bates. Recently, this user began adding references to a number of articles on technical topics mentioning a book that Ms. Bates edited. See [4], [5], [6], etc., in possible violation of WP:REFSPAM guidelines. Mjbinfo feels differently, that these references are a contribution to the articles in question, and that since the book was published by CRC Press, the articles were peer-reviewed. Have you tried to resolve this previously? Warnings for adding promotional material and COI were added to User talk:Mjbinfo. In addition, both SudoGhost and myself have discussed the spam issue with Mjbinfo on SudoGhost's talk page. How do you think we can help? We would like guidance on whether this meets WP:REFSPAM criteria; if so, we should give guidance to Mjbinfo so that they understand Wikipedia guidelines, and the removal of the spam should be enforced. If this doesn't meet the REFSPAM criteria, then we can also clear this up and restore the content. Opening comments by SudoGhost Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks. Opening comments by Mjbinfo Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks. User talk:SudoGhost discussion Please do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary. Hello! I'm a volunteer on DRN. As DRN mainly handles content disputes, this dispute over COI should be brought to Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard.--SGCM (talk) 09:23, 31 August 2012 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.