Talk:Galadriel/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Telepathy

I need someone who has the actual quote in the Biohraphy section, regarding her telepethic powers. It should be in the Silmarillion or another book that describes her... Hackeru

I don't know of any such quote, but it's pretty clearly implied in the Lord of the Rings books and appendices that after the death of Gil-Galad, she's the most personally powerful Elf remaining in Middle-Earth. In the Fellowship of the Ring (Book 2, Chapter 8) she apparently telepathically tempts each member of the Fellowship (the first time that the company meets Galadriel and Celeborn), and later in that chapter she says that she kind of mentally wrestles with Sauron. AnonMoos 02:58, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

You're sure? It was in some of those books... where it said "ever from her childhood she had a wondrous gift of seeing..." or something... ah well, I can look it up then (though I don't have the English ones) Hackeru

I'm only saying what I've seen. But in Unfinished Tales (U.S. paperback edition), page 412 (chapter "The Istari"), there's discussion of a Tolkien note which says very directly that Galadriel was "The greatest of the Eldar surviving in Middle-earth" at the time of "Sauron's final overthrow". By the way, it appears from the Galadriel chapter of Unfinished Tales that Tolkien changed his mind several times about the nature of Galadriel's ban -- or whether there even was such a ban... AnonMoos 19:18, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Galadriel's ancestry

Galadriel's Ancestry in her Article doesn't seem to match the Family Tree in the Wiki Article "Half-Elven." The "Half-Elven" Family Tree seems to have placed Galadriel's birth much farther along than I remember' as far as I can remember, she's one of the oldest Elves in the Simarillion/Lord of the Rings/Hobbit Books (second only to Cirdan or Celebrimbor, I think).

Also, it says in the "Galadriel" Article that she is "only" 8,000 years old. I could've sworn that she was old enough to have seen Feanor himself with her own eyes --and I'm pretty sure that the First, Second, and Third Ages covered WAY more time than that.

Could somebody with extensive Tolkien Knowledge correct both of those two Wiki Articles as needed and IF needed???—Preceding unsigned comment added by Cornholioprime (talk • contribs)

Galadriel was really the daughter of Finarfin, son of Finwe. She was in ME from the beginning of the first age, which is 500 (FA) + 3400 (SA) + 3300 (TA) is roughly 7000. So the article makes sense. In the HE article Galadriel's ancestry is not recorded; only her relation to Elrond and Elros. Bryan 18:46, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes it is well known that Galadriel was half elven, as well known a historical fact indeed as the Vikings original journey to England as economic migrants from Estonia in 2004. --JamesTheNumberless 16:59, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Seriously though, Elves in her parents more virile days suffered from a distinct shortage of humans to shag, a problem stemming directly from their not yet existing. --JamesTheNumberless 16:59, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Indeed she was around with Feanor. As a matter of fact he rather fancied her but I suspect she had some foreshadowing preminition of his fall as she never really liked him much. However, by refusing him a lock of her hair, she was indirectly responsible for the whole Silmarils episode. It was the shifting gold/silver colour of her hair which inspired Feanor to capture the combined light of the two trees, perhaps he would have been satisfied with a lock. The more astute of you will notice that this is what makes her gift to Gimli, so incredibly significant. --JamesTheNumberless 17:08, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

As far as Galadriel's place on the half-elven article's family tree, it is misleading but correct. Due to her placement it makes it look like she is much younger than she is. However, there are no lines leading to her and Celeborn's boxes, only from them to their child who marries into the half-elven line. They are inserted into the half-elven family tree at that point because that's when they were relevant to it, but it is not meant to indicate their age relative to any of the people listed above her.

--DarthVader1219 07:19, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Artanis

I had always though "Artanis" was "Sinatra" spelled backwards. I have never read the Tolkien books. --Gerkinstock 23:32, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Past tense

I suggest that this article should be written in present tense. Wikipedia:Manual of Style (writing about fiction)#Presentation of fictional material has stated clearly:"By convention, these synopses should be written in the present tense, as this is the way that the story is experienced as it is read or viewed. At any particular point in the story there is a 'past' and a 'future', but whether something is 'past' or 'future' changes as the story progresses. It is simplest to recount the entire description as continuous 'present'." Thus I will change the tense according to the guideline. Galadree-el 10:44, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

However, according to Wikipedia:WikiProject_Middle-earth/Standards#Tenses, "All articles that cover in-universe material must be in past tense(original emphasis), as decided as a consensus here. Though it states in the Guide to writing better articles that generally fictional articles should be written in present tense, Tolkien-related articles are an exception, due to the fact that we are discussing more than just plots of novels, we are outlining the history of a fictional world." Therefore, I am changing the tenses back to past tense.

OK, I get it. But it's problematic for a new editor like me to know how many futher exceptional cases in Tolkien-articles that I don't know. :( Galadree-el 10:09, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Last Ship

There is no indication of the ship she left on being the last ship to leave middle earth. -- 02:29, 1 December 2007 67.163.167.87

As Legolas sailed, probably accompagnied by Gimli, into the west after the death of King Elessar, it wasn't Remko2 (talk) 22:54, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, then the sentence in the article should be changed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.163.167.87 (talk) 06:15, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, as this ship carried with it the last of the High Elves, the term "Last ship" could be seen as appropriate, it is in fact the end of an era. Mind you Cirdan doesn't join them on board, it's his task/duty to remain in Middle Earth as long as there are any firstborn willing to go into the West. Remko2 (talk) 17:50, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Celeborn also doesn't leave at that time, nor does Sam. In fact, the term "Last Ship" doesn't occur at all in the Lord of the Rings. The only reference I could find was in "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" in the Silmarillion, where Cirdan tells Gandalf, upon his arrival that "I will dwell by the grey shores, guarding the Havens until the last ship sails." I think the term is coming from the fact that, in the Jackson films, Frodo tells Bilbo that the elves have given him a place on "the last ship to leave Middle Earth." So I think the term needs either removed or clarified. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.2.127.191 (talk) 23:10, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Led Zeppelin reference

I have added requests for citation after the following sentences.

The song Stairway to Heaven by English rock band Led Zeppelin contains references to Lady Galadriel.

The song's lyrics refer to the Lady in the magical forest who turns objects into gold.

While there are Led Zeppelin songs that reference Lord of the Rings or outright sing about it like "Ramble On" and "The Battle of Evermore" - I've never heard or read from any reputable source that there are any LotR references in the "Stairway to Heaven". It is often guessed at or even claimed by the fans of the band or the book or both - but I am yet to see any factual reference.

Not even "Like... dude... Robert and Jimmy were sitting at this mansion and just chilling like, and Robb said like... Man, you know what... I'm gonna write some words to those chords you are playing... AND IT IS GOING TO BE ABOUT GALADRIEL... man...".

So far, it is an urban legend - at best. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.146.165.0 (talk) 14:53, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Not able to use the Ring

Galadriel could not of used the one ring when she was tempted byit when it was heald by Frodo, because according to aragon in Rinindale "this one ring answers to Sauron alone, in has no other master". EmperorofFatalism 10:41 P.M 24 of August 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.235.127.86 (talk) 14:41, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Even Gollum "used" it... AnonMoos (talk) 19:38, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

She could of been corrupted by it, but she like everybody else couldn't of commanded others by useing the ring. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.7.154.159 (talk) 09:41, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Grammar and spellings set aside, that quote is from the Jackson movies, not from the official Tolkien canon. In the Council of Elrond, in FotR, Elrond says "Its strength . . . is too great for anyone to wield at will, save only those who have already a great power of their own. But for them it holds an even deadlier peril. The very desire of it corrupts the heart." And in The Mirror of Galadriel, she says tells Frodo that "the rings give power according to the measure of each possessor. Before you could use that power you would need to become far stronger,and to train your will to the domination of others." The point being, clearly, that anyone can USE the ring, as Gollum, Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam all do, but it would take an individual of great power and will to wield its full power, such as the other ring bearers, Galdalf, Elrond, and Galadriel. But they "cannot" use the ring because they know the power it provides will eventually, always turn to evil. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.2.127.191 (talk) 22:19, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Content from the Spanish Wiki

As Calliopejen suggested, we should add some content from the Spanish article. While the structure over there seems basically the same, the "crítica" section is particularly interesting. I added Drout's review to the English article but my Spanish isn't good enough for Pearce, so someone else please continue this work. De728631 (talk) 21:17, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

"the greatest of all elves"?

This is very dubious as an unqualified sweeping statement. What's indisputable is that she's "the greatest of all elves" remaining in middle earth after the death of Gil-Galad... AnonMoos (talk) 01:05, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, this is apparently what Drout says about Galadriel. We may not like it but it appears in his book. De728631 (talk) 21:52, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Near the beginning of appendix B to The Return of the King, Tolkien calls Galadriel the "greatest of elven women", so we could use that. He doesn't say that she's the greatest of all elves anywhere at any time (and I don't think that claim is really too plausible). AnonMoos (talk) 16:34, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

This is not about what we like to think about Galadriel or what Tolkien wrote about her. This is about a quote from a secondary source that says just that, Galadriel being the greatest of all elves. If you don't like it in the "Character" section, maybe we should open a "Reviews" or "Critics" section? De728631 (talk) 20:12, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Whatever -- the remark in the secondary source, in its unqualified and sweeping form, is pretty much stupid (not really a fair summary of Tolkien), and I think we're allowed to take that into account when choosing whether or not to make use of it... AnonMoos (talk) 00:45, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't think the author of two books on Tolkien and co-author of Tolkien Studies is unqualified and sweeping in his remarks, nor is he stupid. There are in fact a few passages in Tolkien's works that point out why Galadriel was even mightier than Feänor, if not in craftsmanship and power of command but in spirit and wisdom. De728631 (talk) 19:22, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Ban of the Valar/Doom of Mandos

As I was tidying up some of the tenses in the article, I noticed repeated references to the Ban of the Valar. I haven't read The Silmarillion in a while, but I seem to recall that the Ban was placed upon the Númenoreans in the Second Age to restrict them from sailing westward to Valinor and Eressëa, not upon the Noldor. The Noldor -- especially Fëanor's kin, such as Galadriel -- were under the Doom of Mandos, which declared that they would be the "Dispossessed". My memory of all this is sketchy, but I should like to clarify this and make sure the correct term is being used. (As an aside, Wikipedia's coverage of both these concepts is very weak, considering their importance in Middle-earth history. That is somewhat outside the scope of this article, however.) –The Fiddly Leprechaun · Catch Me! 19:30, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

According to the Galadriel chapter of "Unfinished Tales" (p. 240 in my paperback edition), Tolkien did use the word "ban" in a letter he wrote in 1967. However, it appears from this chapter that Tolkien changed his mind several times about the nature of such a ban, or whether such a ban existed ("There is no part of the history of Middle Earth more full of problems than the story of Galadriel and Celeborn, and it must be admitted that there are severe inconsistencies" -- Christopher Tolkien). AnonMoos (talk) 21:36, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

French Wikipedia

Not sure why it should have happened, but the article for Galadriel on French Wikipedia is actually better in some respects than this one... AnonMoos (talk) 13:20, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Queen and Princess

Where in the original text is Galadriel referred to as a Elf-Queen? The given reference is to a third party guide, is that a valid source if it is incorrect? Carl Sixsmith (talk) 07:07, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

The case for "princess" on account of her birth is plausible. Tolkien is remarkably stingy with the words "prince" and "princess", but the high-born Noldor are occasionally accorded such a rank, if not quite as a title (as, e.g., Celegorm in Silmarillion, p. 173). Foster routinely uses this rank for descendants of Finwë, and although textual authority is slim, I think it generally accords with Tolkien's view of the leaders of the Noldor.

"Queen" is harder to justify. Galadriel is never called queen in Tolkien; indeed, in Unfinished Tales (p. 245), he says that Celeborn and Galadriel "took no title of King or Queen; for they said that they were only guardians of this small but fair realm." Though this speaks directly only of Lórien, Tolkien does not call her queen of Eregion either, the only other land that she ruled (in some accounts). Ordinarily Foster is a very reliable source. (Christopher Tolkien calls him "indispensable" at some point, though I can't find the reference at the moment.) But his work only goes as far as The Silmarillion; it does not reflect the later books (UT in particular). I think in this case he was too quick to generalize. [But see my remark below.]

-- Elphion (talk) 09:03, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

She can be considered a queen because she's the ruler of the land of Lorien (for that matter, she was about the only prominent potential claimant left in middle earth to the High Kingship of the Noldor after the death of Gil-galad). She might not have called herself "Queen", but presumably others did so. Foster provides a whole long list of page references (mainly to 1970's U.S. Ballantine paperback editions), but I don't feel like trying to go through them all at this point. You requested a reference and I provided one. AnonMoos (talk) 10:31, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

There is a difference between being a ruler and being a queen. As Elphion points out in the text of the published works is actually quite explicit that she didn't claim to be queen. I'm concerned with your use of the term 'presumably others did so', that isn't what the article should reflect. Carl Sixsmith (talk) 10:41, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

The Galadriel material in Unfinished Tales is Christopher Tolkien's valiant personal attempt to impose some degree of basic order on a mass of conflicting and strongly divergent material which JRR Tolkien wrote over a number of years (see my previous comment in the section above). I'm not sure why any particular item from the "History of Galadriel and Celeborn" section of Unfinished Tales should take precedence over information which appears in works which JRR Tolkien took some part in preparing for publication, and I really don't see why Foster would have included "Queen Galadriel" in the following list -- "the Lady of Lórien, Galadhriel, the Lady of the Wood, the Lady of the Galadrim, the Sorceress of the Golden Wood, the Mistress of Magic, the White Lady, and Queen Galadriel" -- unless the phrase Queen Galadriel appeared somewhere in JRR Tolkien's writings... AnonMoos (talk) 11:27, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

In the letter to Milton Waldman (The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien #131) he speaks of 'the Elven-queen Galadriel' (while in letter #210 he protests that she is not a queen) and in The Road Goes Ever On there is a reference to Galadriel being 'the last survivor of the princes and queens who had led the revolting Noldor to exile in Middle-earth'. Still, I think it is better to avoid here the use of 'queen' to describe Galadriel. Troelsfo (talk) 13:13, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Formally, the Noldor don't have a High King or High Queen in the Third Age, and although Galadriel might have claimed such titles being Finarfin's daughter, there is in fact no evidence she ever did. I wouldn't rely on Foster alone but stick to the canonical first source texts. We can easily call her the "Lady of Lothlórien" though. De728631 (talk) 17:54, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Foster, as usual, is correct: "Queen Galadriel" occurs on one occasion in LotR, in "The Road to Isengard" in The Two Towers (p. 194, Ballantine), where Gimli speaks to Legolas of the wonders of Aglarond. (Oddly, this does not occur among Foster's page citations.) As mentioned above, Galadriel is called "the last survivor of the princes and queens of the Noldor" in The Road Goes Ever On (p. 60). Tolkien calls her "the Elven-queen Galadriel" in Letters, #131, p. 146, reprinted also at the front of the second edition of The Silmarillion (p. xiii, Houghton-Mifflin). So there is clear evidence on both sides: she was certainly a powerful ruler, functioning and seen by others as a queen; but she did not claim the title of "Queen", and is almost universally called "the Lady Galadriel" instead. -- Elphion (talk) 19:15, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Great find, Elphion. The explanation in the article looks good too. I'd say "problem solved". De728631 (talk) 13:30, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Celeborn going over the sea

The prologue says this: It is said that Celeborn went to dwell there after the departure of Galadriel; but therer is no record of the day when at last he sought the Grey Havens, and with him went the last living memory of the Elder Days in Middle-earth.

This does NOT support the notion that Celeborn left. There are no record of the days. Celeborn vanished from memory and with him the living memory of the Elder Days but it is not said that he went over the sea. It could be, but we don't know for sure.--Fogeltje (talk) 18:27, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Good point. But then let's say that in the article. -- Elphion (talk) 18:37, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

I was already contemplating that, but something else suddenly demanded my attention. I shall make an attempt now, using the reference you gave.--Fogeltje (talk) 18:45, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

I've amended that to use Tolkien's language, since that suggests that Celeborn did indeed seek out the Grey Havens. -- Elphion (talk) 18:56, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Banning

Why was Galadriel banned to begin with? Sotakeit 16:21, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

She was one of the leaders of the Noldor who wished to return to Middle-earth... and while most versions indicate that she was not involved in the Kinslaying she was held by the Valar to have helped stir up the movement which led to it. Ergo, she was banned from returning even after the general amnesty granted at the end of the First Age. --CBDunkerson 17:13, 21 March 2006 (UTC) And Galadriel is not Half Elven.

Didn't the ban get revoked but she refused to return out of pride? Carl Sixsmith (talk) 18:27, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

That's one of the later versions of the tale. An even later one was that the Ban never even applied to her, she just wanted to stay in Middle-earth. Tolkien floated both explanations in the progressive exculpation of Galadriel long after LotR was completed. Neither squares well with the obvious implication in the Lament (made explicit in The Road Goes Ever On) that she was barred from returning (But if of ships I now would sing, what ship would come to me?) until the Ban is lifted when she forswears the temptation of the Ring offered by Frodo. -- Elphion (talk) 19:43, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

The Storm Queen

99.39.249.69 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) has twice now added that Galadriel was called "the Storm Queen". I'm aware that this name is listed by The Lord of the Rings Wiki; but they don't provide a source, and I don't know where it came from. -- Elphion (talk) 02:22, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

It certainly doesn't come from the Lord of the Rings books or appendices, or the Silmarillion -- it was established in previous discussions on this page, that in the Tolkien works that Robert Foster knew about, only Gimli calls her "Queen Galadriel" (not "Storm queen")... AnonMoos (talk) 03:38, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

There's a Darkover character with that epithet; maybe someone is misremembering the context of something read long ago. (Farfetched, but it's all I've got.) —Tamfang (talk) 05:33, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Also noticed that Artanis becomes "Artanias"... -- AnonMoos (talk) 12:04, 6 June 2012 (UTC)