Talk:Irony

Socrates

>(Socrates, in Plato's dialogues, was a master of this technique.)

Considering that the Socrates from the Dialogues is heavily fictionalised, we cannot really say this. It's easy for a writer to supply his hero with some cannon fodder. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.139.87.238 (talk) 14:08, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

We can very well say it. It doesn't matter whether he was a master in real life or not. The sentence includes the qualifier "in Platos's dialogues" [the literary works] where he clearly is. Dainamo (talk) 09:18, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Oxymorons

Some of your examples for 'Verbal irony' seem more oxymoronic than ironic. Perhaps an oxymoron is a form of irony? There definitely seems to be some connection. Classic examples: "jumbo shrimp", "military intelligence". I don't have any sources, but this seems to be common sense (which is rare these days -- sorry, couldn't help myself). ~Eric F 184.76.225.106 (talk) 02:57, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

"Oxy" means "sharp." "Moron" means "a dull thing." "Oxymoron" is merely a contradiction between two adjectives [sharp dull]. On the other hand, "irony" means "saying the opposite of what is thought or meant." If I am cold and I say, "I'm hot," then I'm being ironic. Irony always involves an opposite. It is an opposition between false words and true thoughts. By the way, in your so-called oxymoron "military intelligence," the word "intelligence" simply means "the gathering of information," not "smartness." Therefore, military intelligence" is not an oxymoron. Also, "shrimp" does not mean "small." It means "ten-footed crustacean." So "jumbo shrimp" is also not an oxymoron.Lestrade (talk) 18:58, 5 April 2012 (UTC)Lestrade

Mike091020 (talk) 10:35, 21 May 2012 (UTC) I'm not sure why you say that. Both of those examples use alternative meanings for the words (intelligence and shrimp) and it is in that alternative usage that the irony is to be found. I'm not sure that an overly restrictive definition of irony serves. The joke about jumbo shrimp is well understood as a form of irony and gives a good laugh for that reason. I'm sure someone somewhere discusses the idea that much humor turns on irony.

I agree. To fully comprehend the humorous wordplay and oxymoronic nature of the terms "military intelligence" and "jumbo shrimp", we must open our minds up to the alternative meanings of words. Otherwise, we risk being hoist by our own pedant.Twistlethrop (talk) 15:03, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

I don’t feel as though I am being hoist [blown up] by my own petard [bomb] when I say that tolerating alternative meanings to words renders words unusable for communication. Without conventional definitions, words are private, subjective, and no better than secret codes. “Irony” has a conventional definition: "a word’s literal meaning is the opposite of its intended meaning."Lestrade (talk) 13:12, 2 August 2012 (UTC)Lestrade

"Tolerating alternative meanings to words renders (them) unusable for communication" (??!!). Come now - you know better than that! All English words worth their salt have at least three meanings, for goodness' sake! Anyway almost all irony fails your definition - as very little of it is exactly "opposite". A better word here would be "(more or less) contradictory" or even bearing a sharply distinct meaning. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 03:41, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, Lestrade; I did mean pedant, certainly not petard. My play on the phrase was deliberate, especially with an eye to the beauty of the English language: its already enormous, but constantly evolving, lexicon. That beauty prevents anybody from being a true authority upon it.Twistlethrop (talk) 00:49, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

More definitions required

If we are including all possible definitions of irony, should we not inlcude "of, resembling, or containing iron"? Dainamo (talk) 09:25, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

This article is clearly about "irony" the noun; the device used in language.

The most appropriate place in this article for the adjective "irony" would be the disambiguation section. You could create an article to explain its usage etc, but this is not a dictionary and I'm unsure how it would fit into the encyclopedia.Twistlethrop (talk) 15:13, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Incorrect Use of Irony

The last time I looked at this article several years ago, there was a section on incorrect use of the word, including an amusing analysis of Alanis Morissette's 1995 hit song "Ironic", which featured a fly in her chardonnay. Sorry to see that section removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.188.181.210 (talk) 10:43, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

I think the world is collectively tired of her terrible song being used as an example of what irony is not, which is pretty ironic, really. Or is it? etc. 99.146.121.1 (talk) 10:38, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

The main WP article is excellent. However, I would also like to have seen reference to Alanis's song and it's lyrics. Why? Because some people genuinely think that "a traffic jam, when you're already late" is irony. It's not, unless you were on your way to a meeting about traffic congestion and how to fix it, etc. I vote for its re-inclusion. Thanks.

Cowbell Photo

What the hell is that about? Should it be removed? 86.10.244.90 (talk) 12:38, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

If you read the whole caption it explains "The combination of a peaceful, pastoral use and a militant detail gives this item an ironic character, symbolizing the tragic daily reality of the Middle East conflict.", although if this is a single editor's observation (it doesn't appear to be mentioned and/or sourced in the body of the article) we should remove it as WP:OR/WP:OI. --McGeddon (talk) 14:07, 28 August 2012 (UTC)