Wikipedia talk:Editing policy

Displacing an existing article with a sandbox

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76.65.128.132 (talk) 13:12, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Tighten up policy on poor quality articles

The number of articles is approaching the four million mark so we need to look at preventing the creation of new articles. We almost have enough articles.
Narhh. Just kidding!
I would like to suggest a (serious) change in the policy wording. I would like the following paragraph in the policy rephrased:

"Perfection is not required: Wikipedia is a work in progress. Collaborative editing means that incomplete or poorly written first drafts articles can evolve improve over time. into excellent articles. Even poor articles, if they can be improved, are welcome. For instance, one person may start an article with an overview of a subject or a few random facts. Another may help standardize the article's formatting, or have additional facts and figures or a graphic to add. Yet another may bring better balance to the views represented in the article, and perform fact-checking and sourcing to existing content. At any point during this process, the article may become disorganized or contain substandard writing.

My suggested wording is an attempt to raise the minimum standard for articles. Even a short time spent on New Page Patrol will show that there is a need to raise the standard of new articles. The blasé attitude towards article improvements also suggests that we should reword the policy. It is being used as an excuse by editors to allow very poor quality articles to exist. Jimbo himself has stated that there is a need to improve quality of the existing articles. An AfD which in part prompted me to make this suggestion can be seen at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Non violent direct action in Australia.

There are sufficient warnings given to editors telling them to make a halfway decent, referenced article. Also, articles can be developed offline, or in user or project namespace.

Does this need an RFC? -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 06:42, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

What you're proposing to do here isn't justified and even if it was this proposal would not achieve it. It is fairly uncontroversial that we need to move towards improving the quality of our existing articles rather than adding more. However this does not imply that we should be more willing to delete low-quality articles. Even if we do want to start deleting low-quality articles the proposed change - which isn't the only or even the main piece of policy preventing this - would not achieve this aim. I can't help but think that this is an attempt to resurrect your proposal to speedily delete unreferenced articles after it was shot down in flames. Hut 8.5 08:39, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

I had completely forgotten about that proposal. -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 10:10, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

The policy as it is currently written is an explicit endorsement of very low quality articles. Why is that enshrined in policy? -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 21:37, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

The policy does not "endorse low-quality articles". It does not say that very low quality articles are fine as they are or that they should not be improved - the whole point of the paragraph you're proposing to change is that they can be (and are) improved. Just because it specifies that such pages should not be deleted merely for being low quality does not mean they are endorsed. Hut 8.5 22:14, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Ok. Whatever. I'm going to move on. Plenty to do and all that. Policy is ignored by newbies anyway, and that is where a lot of poor quality material comes from. -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 22:23, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Sure, but newbies are where long-time editors come from, too. If we make a habit of biting them for everything they do wrong, we'll have a lot fewer coeditors. LeadSongDog come howl! 02:15, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Fix problems

The entire goal of WP:5P is to fix the problem of ignorance. The point of WP:PRESERVE is that we should preserve content while doing so. Re-titling this section of this policy as "Fix the problem" buries the lede. Of course, we're here to fix a problem. But we're here to preserve content while doing so. -- Kendrick7^talk 03:57, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

No... we are not here to necessarily preserve content. We have had this discussion at least twice before. In both of these previous discussions, the consensus was that the point of this section isn't just to tell editors to preserve content. The point of the section is to explain when it is appropriate to preserve the content and when it is not appropriate to do so. There are many problematic situations (laid out in multiple policies and guidelines) where the best way to fix a problem is to NOT preserve the content. In other words... while the WP:PRESERVE aspect of the section is important... that aspect is balanced by the WP:HANDLE/WP:FIXTHEPROBLEM aspect (which tells editors not to preserve content in some situations). Blueboar (talk) 15:00, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

I'm with Blueboar. Once upon a time, PRESERVE and HANDLE were separate and contrasting sections. That is no longer the case. The section heading needs to reflect both goals, not just the first. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:57, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

Why is this a policy?

Policies describe standards that all users should follow. This reads more like an essay on the Wikipedia process, much like Wikipedia:Wikipedia is a work in progress. Users who habitually flaunt policy can be sanctioned. But can we sanction users who do not boldly add information to Wikipedia, or who do not try to fix problems, some of the main things we are told here to do? As far as any of it reaches the level of standards that all users should follow, it is already covered in other policies. The page was elevated to the policy level in October 2004 in a bevy of promotions, without any discussion that I've been able to find.  --Lambiam 10:05, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Actually, we can sanction editors who refuse to fix problems (or at least those who prevent others from doing so.) And, yes, a lot of what this policy says is covered in other policies as well, but repetition and restatement are not necessarily bad things when it comes to policy. Doing so allows us to better understand how the standard in question should be interpreted in various specific situations. Blueboar (talk) 14:31, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

I don't think this page should be a policy. Almost all the content of the page that isn't just common sense is a summary of something said in more detail elsewhere. About the only original thing is the principle that people should try to fix problems if possible and remove them where this isn't possible, but even this principle is subject to loads of caveats. I rarely see this page cited or quoted anywhere, and when it is cited it is frequently misused. Wikipedia does have an awful lot of policies and guidelines, and any attempt to simplify them or reduce the number of them it would make life much easier for new editors. Hut 8.5 20:26, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

This page is used

1) as a way of strongly endorsing (policy-level) the more philosophically stated guidance given in the Guideline WP:BOLD, and the Essays WP:WORKINPROGRESS, WP:DEADLINE, WP:BATHWATER, etc.

2) The list of "Instead of deleting text, consider: ..." options that are given in the WP:PRESERVE section, are not covered elsewhere (in policy, afaik). These options are critically important in balancing out the opinions of individual editors, and providing instruction on how to handle disputed content.

This page is THE reminder, that slow and steady wins the day; That it is better (preferable) to improve imperfect-content, rather than to eradicate it. It helps to prevent "1 step forward, 2 steps back" decisions, in a way that no other policy does. It's a comprehensible-elaboration of the blissfully-short WP:IAR. -- Quiddity (talk) 22:29, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

• Editing articles is a fundamental task on Wikipedia. The essence of a policy is that it well-represents the way that we do things. This policy is more grounded in reality than policies such as WP:CIVIL and WP:BURO which are routinely flouted with impunity. The section WP:IMPERFECT is especially important in explaining that we do not expect article submissions to be well presented and polished; that rough drafts and perfunctory stubs are quite acceptable. Warden (talk) 09:25, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

Problems that may justify removal - UNDUE

Kendrick recently changed this section from saying:

• WP:UNDUE discusses how to balance material that gives undue weight to a particular viewpoint, which might include removal of trivia, tiny minority viewpoints, or material that cannot be supported with high-quality sources.

to

• WP:UNDUE discusses how to balance material that gives undue weight to a particular viewpoint, which might include removal of trivia, or splitting tiny minority viewpoints to a new article.

I don't mind adding something about WP:CFORK... but the edit removed the key point of the original sentence. WP:UNDUE goes further than that just saying "don't split off tiny minority view points into a new article"... It makes it clear that there are situations when we we should not even mention a tiny minority view. In other words (to relate UNDUE back to this policy section) if mentioning a tiny minority view would give it undue weight, we should not preserve the information. Kendrick's edit took this out. I reverted. Now... discuss if necessary. Blueboar (talk) 12:18, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Generally, I think you're right, but there are occasions in which what seems like a tiny minority viewpoint overall might deserve mention "there" but not "here". In this sense, removal is about removing it from this article is justified, but removing all mention in all articles might not be. Similarly, there may be times when we need to use "medium-quality sources" rather than high-quality sources, e.g., to accurately describe what a subject says about himself. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:36, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

I agree. I think the policy already makes that clear... No? Blueboar (talk) 13:40, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

Ad hominem editing?

If a first editor makes an edit that improves Wikipedia, and a second editor simply has something against the first editor, should the second editor undo the edit? 128.196.126.151 (talk) 21:07, 6 September 2012 (UTC)