Request concerning Nishidani
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Activism1234 04:24, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Nishidani (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:ARBPIA#General_1RR_restriction
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 26 August - As brought below by No More Mr Nice Guy - Nishidani reverts an edit made by NMMNG.
- 26 August - Reverts No More Mr Nice Guy, related to a different passage
- 26 August - reverts me by placing a reference in the article I removed before on that day, and which two other editors objected to. I can't say whether it was intentional or not, but Nishidani has been told a number of times (on the article talk page and on his/her talk page) to kindly self-revert and did not.
- Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
He/she has been blocked before for 8 hours, 24 hours, 72 hours, and 1 week.
Nishidani has also been blocked indefinitely from I-P, and was also topic-banned for a certain amount of time on I-P (both cases are over now and he is allowed to edit).
I also warned him/her to self-revert here. A short amount of time before that, I warned about 1RR and asked to self-revert here as well (that was solved). --Activism1234 04:30, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
Strikingly, I've had this problem a few times before with Nishidani, but never took it to 1RR. I understand people sometimes make mistakes, and I'm not interested in the drama and attacks that results from an AE (now it's become too much though). But what's surprising is that during those cases, such as this, Nishidani said "Thanks for the tip-off. I'll never understand that rule [1RR]" and "I never could understand these revert niceties." I think I thoroughly explained it to him/her on those threads (as did some other editors). Based on the editor's talk page here, it still seems that the editor doesn't understand what 1RR really is, and thus is refusing to self-revert.
This, I feel, is also surprising when you consider that Nishidani was topic banned for violationg 1RR. Has nothing been learned? And this is regardless of whether or not Nishidani violated 1RR here, as Nishidani has openly admitted he still doesn't "get" 1RR.
It is my understanding also that penalties can be enforced even for a first 1RR though.
Not looking to receive full-blown drama and attacks here, so crossing my fingers that it won't. This is just a case about a violation of 1RR.
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
See here.
@Nishidani - my interpretation of WP:1RR is, as I've said on your talk page, straight from the 1RR page - any edit, whether in whole or in part, that undoes the work of another editor. Hope that clarifies it. You don't need an "authority" to explain this either, it's straight there on the 1RR page, and you've been here long enough, which is why it's surprising that you haven't understood - openly admitting that here - what 1RR is all this time, especially when an editor like yourself focuses heavily on I-P articles. --Activism1234 14:41, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
@Nishidani When I woke up, my talk page contained an edit on the article from something you wrote. I checked it out, noticed you wrote a passage from a fringe unreliable biased reference, and removed it, with a very clear edit summary explaining why. A bit later, I noticed activity on the talk page, where I saw your comment about removing it. I also, once again, explained very clearly, along with links to mainstraem news site, why the referene was unreliable, so saying I didn't explain it on the talk page is ridiculous and not true. Later on, another editor, NNMG, voiced support as well for removing it, explaining his/her reasons too, and yet while you were asked for a number of hours to just self-revert, you refused to do so. --Activism1234 15:07, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
@Pluto - This is a different scenario. This is not a case where an editor X writes a passage referencing The New York Times, and another editor Y removes that passage (for any reason related to the passage itself, such as distorting the source, not being accurate, etc). X then goes, and writes a different passage in a different section of the article, using the same reference. Great.
Here, however, X writes a passage in the article with a reference from a certain website, not a reliable media outlet. Y removes the passage because of the reference itself - such as being unreliable or fringe or heavily heavily biased. X then goes, and writes another passage in a different section - but uses the same reference that was previously removed as problematic, and which a number of editors supported removing. --Activism1234 15:07, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
@All/admins - I added another diff as supplied by another editor below to the list of diffs of edits above, which should be helpful. --Activism1234 22:06, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
@Mac - Please don't strike out other editor's comments on a talk page without their permission... That's often frowned upon, and can change what an editor was meaning to fit what you want, which isn't right. Thanks. --Activism1234 17:55, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
@JohnCarter, in regards to Nishidani violation 1RR but not sure which sanction to give:
Nishidani's violation here isn't his/her first. Indeed, Nishidani was blocked for 8 hours for violating 3RR and edit warring on Hebron, blocked for 24 hours for violating 3RR on Haj Amin al-Husseini, 72 hours for edit warring on Norman Finkelstein, 1 week for personal attacks on an editor (the latter two cases, however, were lifted before the time expired). Moreover, Nishidani has been previously prohibited from editing I-P at the original ARBPIA case, and at another AE, Nishidani was topic-banned from I-P articles. Since the original ban from I-P in the ARBPIA case, Nishidani has continued to reoffend, as shown in the topic-ban and now this case. --Activism1234 05:21, 31 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
@Nishidani - please don't try to frame editors like myself as being hired by someone or paid... Everyone can say that about someone else, it doesn't make it true, and I find that very offensive. Thanks. --Activism1234 15:18, 31 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
@Nishidani - That's pretty simple. There aren't any intermediate edits - it's 1 revert. People who are familiar with WP:3RR or 1RR would know that - "A series of consecutive saved revert edits by one user with no intervening edits by another user counts as one revert." It's distressing that even after being sanctioned multiple times for 1RR or 3RR, you still don't get this. --Activism1234 16:07, 31 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
@Nishidani - that's an admin decision, not mine. --Activism1234 16:43, 31 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Discussion concerning Nishidani
Statement by Nishidani
Eric Berne,[Games People Play].
User:Activism1234 is quite an activist in this complaint, see also here, particularly when I am in mid-stride building a defective page rapidly. I freely admit I am not a stickler for the reclusive hermeneutic niceties of the 1R rule. I call its use in circumstances like these the 'stick in the spokes' tactic in edit-warring that aims to block article composition, but I may be wrong. The first instance I cite looks as though I did inadvertently make such an infraction. At the risk of WP:TLDR, since this is recurrent in my regard, and some editors are pressing for my permaban on piddling issues like this (see archives), I am obliged to ask for clarification.
- In the first instance, I was bewildered and asked for input, which Activism, kindly, did provide. I took her word for it.
- In the second instance I asked Nableezy, the nabob of rule interpretation in my parts, and his response - he's not a brownnosing POV-pal truckler on technical matters -was:
Nish, unless you actually removed something that somebody else wrote in your first set of edits then you did not perform a revert.'
- I took note. Perhaps it was wrong for me to accept Activism's sphinctural interpretation of 1R, given another authority disagrees.
- On this third occasion, when grumbling circulated on the talk page, I explained exactly what I was doing, and why I failed to see the logic of an accusation I had made a IR infraction. I made two edits in two open windows on the article in succession, one of which was this, which was particularly important because the connotation of 'lynch', borrowed into modern hebrew and endemic in our sources, is not clear to editors or readers, and led User:DGG to change the title. I closed my first (lead) edit, and then looked at the second window, did this second edit, wholly unaware that Activism in the meantime had shown up on the article to remove the source I was using there precisely at that moment, complaining it was from (absurdly) an antisemitic source, namely Mondoweiss, a summary accusation that is, to any one familiar with Philip Weiss's web page not only nonsense, but tantamount to a WP:BLP violation, since Activism was saying effectively that Weiss is a self-hating Jew, an antisemitic Jew, and anything, even by a tenure-track Israeli-American academic anthropologist appearing on his webpage was likewise just 'Israel-bashing'.
- The most serious thing in this absurd kerfuffle is the revert practice I complained about in an earlier A/E case. Reverting without deigning to discuss the objection on the talk page, until the editor whose work has been undone insists on an explanation, is improper. It is worth noting that before I introduced the source, I explained it on the talk page in depth, and for 3 hours no comment was forthcoming. Activism simply deleted the material and the source, with an absurd edit summary. User:Shrike said it was WP:Undue after 20 minutes, though it's hard to figure out from his Englkish why and Activism , not to justify this deletion, but to complain I had reverted it, turned up half an hour after making her IR deletion, and in what followed there is no serious attempt to justify the deletion or respond to my initial points.
Technically this is called preemptive use of 1R to make a "fait accompli" irrespective of one's obligations to the talk page where prior explanations have been given.
Activism notified me on my page. I engaged in a dialogue, though it was very late: I was in pyjamas, and would examine it (under Nableezy's reading it is not an infraction) on getting up and do whatever was required, hoping input from third parties who know about these things became available to my page in the meantime.
I woke up and found that, instead of the courtesy of waiting, as I asked, Activism had preempted all and made a formal complaint here. The worst of it is, (s)he insist I remove material that is actually totally neutral, an objective remark on what everyone familiar with Hebrew and English knows to be a truism. To save the bother I actually did revert the questioned edit
In brief, apart from Pluto's comment below, Nableezy's clarification that Activism's prior complaint of this type is questionable, and several stray remarks Activism made yesterday refusing to apologize for insinuating I was abetting antisemitism and genocide, see here and the exchanges that ensued (I could have raised this at wikiquette. I decided not to. I dislike this relentless pettifogging to score points)
I've reverted and this could be ignored. But for once I would like some neutral specialist to clarify for me if Activism's latest complaint is correct. I simply cannot see it, and think this is POV badgering to disturb another editor. One should not allow work here to be bogged down continuously by such trivial pursuits. Nishidani (talk) 10:34, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Preemptive clarification.Her is a 'politically correct' variation on standard 'him', which I have adopted because an author I respect and am reading challenges my conservative prejudices in this regard.Nishidani (talk) 11:03, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Activism
- @'any edit, whether in whole or in part, that undoes the work of another editor. Hope that clarifies it.'
- Precisely, and Nableezy and Pluto, both very experienced editors who know what I don't, the niceties of rule interpretation, differ with the way you construe that. I myself am clueless. I cannot see how I undid anything you touched. I was simply using up the page a source reference which, unbeknown to me, you not only challenged but removed elsewhere. Do you realize the implications of your interpretation (perhaps correct, I don't know)? It means operatively that any editor who has made one revert on a page (I reverted NMMGG's incomprehensible deletion of substantial material from an excellent source when he could have copy-edited if that was the problem) cannot continue to work the page with an open window serenely for fear that someone might in the meantime pop in and remove a source he is using, so that any edit he does within those minutes will automatically qualify as a violation of 1R. This morning as I did a few edits, I had to keep thinking, 'heck, if in the meantime someone removes the source I'm using, I'm up excrement creek'. Perhaps the rule works out that way, but it would make, if lucidly formalized thus, work hell for editors like myself who usually sit down and write a page in at least a dozen or more edits over consecutive hours.
- @'When I woke up, my talk page contained an edit on the article from something you wrote. I checked it out, noticed you wrote a passage from a fringe unreliable biased reference.'
- In layman's language, you reverted me without looking at the talk page where every objection you made in your edit summary had been addressed by adducing relevant policy. When I protested, neither you nor the two other editors supporting you troubled themselves to respond to my detailed explanation. Nishidani (talk) 16:54, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Ed. I'm terribly sorry to bother admins on this, but since Activism believes(s)he has identified a recurrent problem in my editing, and the interpretation of 1R on which (s)he bases this has been challenged by (a)Nableezy and (b) Pluto who come to the I/P area from quite distinct perspectives, I wonder if I could prevail on you to wait a little, until this specific 1R interpretation is clarified, in whoever's favour. I'd prefer not to work here with the shadow of that threat looking over my shoulder. Surely someone up there can give a call on this specific interpretation as it was applied to what I did, since at least three of us are confused? Sorry for the bother.Nishidani (talk) 16:52, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- John, look at the time stamps. The contested edit occurred within 10 minutes of Activism's deletion, i.e, while I had 2 pages open, and was slowly checking my source file, and the net, to make two distinct edits. I had absolutely no knowledge of what Activism had done (ignorance is not an excuse but) a few minutes earlier. I find this intensely unfair. 1R rules are not meant, surely, to lend themselves to use that may make consecutive edits impossible. This would never have happened had the plaitiff followed best usage, and replied to my explanation for using that source on the talk page, where I could have noted it beforehand. Nishidani (talk) 17:32, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- John. This page is the first time I've applied the -ref name =""/ - template, and had to (a) copy the Mondoweiss ref (ref name = "Benjamin"+Jessie Benjamin(Zion Square) at Mondoweiss, etc (b) then use it for my second edit up top, then reduce it to just ref name =Benjamin"/ref below which had, unknown to me, been removed except for the article as it existed in my window. That's what happened, but there's no obligation to believe me. But the point is, the guilt thesis assumes, perhaps reasonably that I must be a complete fucking moron, after 6 years, and after repeated attempts to get me permabanned, to note Activism had, after NMMGG, deleted another source, and persist consciously in a defiant 1R violation. Perhaps in the psychology of deviant self-haters, there is room for such a deduction, but despite some years in Japan, I have never espoused the cause of suicide (except for a natural form of assisted extinction, like smoking). Nishidani (talk) 20:13, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- NMMGG. As someone who implied I am a congenitally dishonest by saying wikipedia needs people (like yourself, one presumes) to keep me honest and, some while back, looked forward, with a prediction, to the permaban you thought inevitable for someone like myself, you have a remarkable talent for reading malevolence into whatever I do. I rather admire your ability to put the worst possible spin on most of the things I do round here. The gravaman of your charge that I am somehow a POV warrior editor requiring minute surveillance relies on the fact that you affirm I described the Palestinian victims as children, while their adolescent Israeli assailants are 'youths'.
- It's true for the infobox which I did rapidly while concentrating on the complex narrative. Knowing nothing about infoboxes, I pilfered one from the Bat Ayin ax attack, which spoke of the victims accurately as children, but gave no indication of the age of the perpetrator. I put the perpetrator in as youths, because everywhere in the text I drafted before you raised this charge, the neutral narrative default term for both groups of adolescents is 'youth'. Your suspicions are disgusting. Read the text. I have gone out of my way to record every instance of generosity and kindness from Israelis in the sources, rather than ignore them, as some drafters of terrorist articles customarily do.
- As the history will show, I'd written, over 20kb of material in two days in almost consecutive edits. Working off a long file, and from memory, at speed will by the normal logic of things lead to slips, oversights or whatever. Nishidani (talk) 20:13, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- NMMGG. Just a brief course on the hermeneutics of suspicion, which your remarks in my regard consistently ignore, while evincing the defects that discipline documents. All suspicions are based on facts. The problem is not in the facts, but in their interpretation. Objective assessment of "facts" means setting aside assumptions and a priori hypotheses in order to allow "the facts to speak for themselves". They rarely do, of course, since facts are meaningful only within a framework, and if you wish to "frame" someone, or find facts to corroborate a preconceived impression, you'll find them everywhere. This is what fringe theorists do, and, unfortunately, many amateur psychologists. Wikipedia's principles are based on "Randian objectivism" which, in its original form, is sheer epistemological nonsense, but, as consensually formulated in working principles, fairly functional for governing (a) interaction between individuals in an anonymous multitude of aspiring editors (b) to arrive at the construction of informed articles. While checking my memory of Goethe's dictum, which I think true:"Höchste wäre, zu begreifen, daß alles Faktische schon Theorie ist," I noted that Raymond Firth is also quoted appositely: "There are no brute facts".Bref, you're at liberty to suppose the worst, but suppositions are not evidence, and, as a working rule, despite the predictable antipathies, we should be looking at the quality of sources, the material used and the style adopted to represent the "facts", and not assess edits invariably according to our personal profiles of the "opposing" editor. Even bristling pricks can be (pro)creative.Nishidani (talk) 09:19, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, yeah, add racially prejudiced Israelopaedophobe to the charge sheet. Every editor on the wrong side of the I/P border who is worth her salt should come to, and work in the articles, fully and patiently aware that she's going to cop a lot of provocative flack, just as happens in the real world. The game is to keep baiting preemptively until the unlucky gudgeon bites back and then gets him or herself into the agonies of a death struggle as the angler on a fishing expedition wriggles the line. Even if unsuccessful, it makes for a good spectacle. I've no problem with that. At my age one feels sufficiently squamous to brush off the scratches as mere aesthetic exuvious streamlining on a thick-skin. It's part of the job, and I won't be intimidated.
- You assumed the dour prophetic mantle a few months back and looked forward to the inevitability of my being permabanned over what was a single stubborn but I think principled refusal to revert what every editor knew was sheer crap reintroduced into an article in what turned out to be a 1R violation. The damage I refused to restore was done by a POV jokester who was then almost immediately permabanned for his chronic disruptiveness.
- Here, despite my doubts as to whether the 1R rule was infringed, I did as requested, and reverted. No, the amicus curiae is not satisfied. let's go to AE and get the nuisance properly jugged in perpetual porridge, somewhat like the fraudulent Geryon. In this c(h)ase, you are now actively nudging to make the prophecy come true, and you are grasping at straws to build a molehill of innuendo.
- User:Activism1234 herself managed to insinuate that I regarded editors who opposed me mechanically as vermin, and, when asked to retract a serious NPA violation, ratcheted up the innuendo by openly asserting that I was using genocidal language typical of Holocaust activists, i.e., that I was behaving like an anti-semite,perhaps intentionally, and against further remonstration at the suggestion I was intimating people here should be exterminated, piled it on by adding my innocuous use of a metaphoric term in English meant they were mushrooms and cockroaches, while refusing to accept the forthcoming evidence that she had grossly confused the meaning of the word in English with its connotations in Hebrew. Were I the usual run of POV-warrior tactician that thrives here, I could have jumped at this to take the editor to court. I didn't. It's a waste of everybody's time, as (apart from a request for clarification for my own enlightenment) I suggest, this thread is.
- As I say, no one is obliged to accept my good faith, or the record I have for spending most editing time constructively building articles rather than bitching or snitching. But there is a point hyperbole becomes farcical, intemperant innuendo rather vulgar and tactical troublemaking a waste of everyone's time, as here.Nishidani (talk) 06:52, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- To refocus, the issue here requiring clarification is:-
- (a) A source whose rationale has been explained in detail on the talk page remains there without challenge for several hours.
- (b) The editor who used the talk page preemptively to explain his intended introduction of that source, seeing no one challenge it, opens the page to make one further edit from it (of a purely uncontroversial nature), to a wholly different section of the page.
- (c) A second editor at that very moment, who hasn't troubled, by their own admission to look at the talk page, reverts the first edit from that source on sight, on waking up in the morning, while the first editor is making his second edit from it. The second editor finds, when his version of the page comes up, that the source he used has been elided from lower down in the page, while his second edit is preserved. Has he "reverted" in the sense of "undoing" the second editor's edit, or has he simply used a source that, as the time stamps show, he had no idea had been removed some minutes beforehand? It's important to know if there is a difference because if this is a 1R infraction, it opens up, for the future, inadvertently, considerable margins to finesse WP:GAMING, though I am certain that was not Activism's intention. This was a freak, and the malice spun out of the coincidence is rather depressing.Nishidani (talk) 09:19, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Since Activism's last edit, the evidence does look on surer ground at last. I might add that I suspect a fourth revert could be added to the score. I reverted the cluebot here. There again I had nothing in mind other than the integrity of the text, and the coherence of edits being made to it.
- So technically, since the law is uninterested in whether a person is intentionally disruptive or inadvertently makes an error, a sanction does appear fair. I don't want exceptions made on my behalf.
- But one final comment, concerning the other three as now ordered. But I'll do that after breakfast, in about 2 hours time.Nishidani (talk) 07:12, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, just permabanban or suspend me. I really am missing the beach, and a good book. This malevolent nonsense has already devoured more time than it took me to write a 30kb article. I’ll have to do this in sections because it risks WP:TLDR, but the points have to be made, if only for the record.
A general reflection. If rules are clear, they are either followed or, when broken, applied. I know my edits are placed under the microscope to make life difficult. In three days, examining just a few edits over one day's span of time, the original plaintiff who just found what is putatively one 1R infraction, then combed out, with NMMGG's help, another, and now, sieving and resieving has found a third. It's absolutely weird that the plaintiffs never saw this when making the original complaint. I can't understand it as it is being interpreted, but neither can the two plaintiffs, for they keep on adding examples of ostensible infractions they missed the first or second time round. At this rate every edit other than one I make over 1 a day on any page will be some infraction by the end of the thread. As I note below, it looks to me like NMMGG, by the same reading, broke 1R.
User:Activism1234’s novel rearrangement of events, placing her own initial accusation third, while showcasing the rather complicated interaction between NMMGG, myself and another editor above it, leads to misapprehensions. I have trouble figuring it out, but I'm notoriously bad at things like this. Let me examine what NMMGG was doing on the page, and how other editors reacted.
- (1) I reverted (07:32, 26 August) this edit made by NMMGG at (00:47, 26 August 2012), which I personally viewed as vandalistic, since the edit summary is arguably false, and the reason given in bad faith. To justify his deletion of a large swathe of text reporting what a notable figure said, NMMGG wrote he was ‘removing possible copyright violation’. I.e. he acted on a personal suspicion which he did not trouble to argue on the talk page preemptively or afterwards. He struck, and I reverted. Very effective, restoring the text ('wholesale removal based on a suspicion, not on evidence') I used up my revert rights for the day. Privately I think, without evidence other that that it is a repeated pattern, that this is what that sort of bad editing basically intends to do. The source is The Forward, the writer is rabbi Jill Jacobs, a distinguished figure in American Jewish life. You don’t in my book go about deleting information sourced to a respectable mainstream journal or magazine, written by a notable public person as an op-ed. IPs do this every day. Experienced editors know it is intolerable practice, and my revert was sensible. I then rewrote the text more closely to elide any suspicion that there might possibly be a cv problem. That is how you fix texts, by building them, not by sitting around and hacking them.
- (2) At 04:09, 27 August 2012, a day later, NMMGG again removes another swathe of material, apparently without reading the source carefully, because his edit summary is patently weak, and then changes the lead. User:Bali ultimate then makes two edits. One reverts NMMGG wholesale, i.e. restored the text to what it was before the two distinct edits NMMGG had made, and he then rewrote the passage to show that in fact the Ynet source and material which NMMGG blanketed does indeed connect the two. For once a discussion was opened on the talk page. Despite repeating himself, NMMGG had no leg to stand on.
- There was not the slightest skerrick of evidence for NMMGG’s assertion that what Tibi said of the Tel Aviv assault was unconnected to the Jerusalem incident which is the subject of the page. To the contrary, as Bali ultimate clarified, the journalist in the source writes:
Two east Jerusalem teens are claiming they were assaulted by three men in Tel Aviv earlier this week in what could be another case of racist violence after last week's Jerusalem lynch.
- I.e. The journalist makes the connection. Tibi himself is then quoted as remarking
"Imagine Israel's response had the tables been turned and a Jew was lynched at an Arab town. We are outraged and appalled over the wave of racist violence sweeping the country sponsored by the Right."
Tibi’s remark about the Tel Aviv incident concludes by making an analogy which, though expressed as an hypothesis, explicitly uses and alludes to the Arab lynched in a Jewish town, meaning The Zion Square assault which is the object of the article. That is as plain as day. It is simply not opinionable given (a) the journalist's use of another and the obvious allusion in Tibi's words.
In other words, NMMGG has been (a) quite within the law, his two reverts being on successive days (b) But these two substantial and wrongly motivated or at least highly questionable removal-reverts of large amounts of material from the page, concerning the views of notable people cited in mainstream newspapers or magazines, are only with the most lenient interpretation defensible as oversights. They were restored because either argument or checking showed that his edit summaries were wrong, misleading or question-begging.Nishidani (talk) 13:14, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I personally have no idea whether or note NMMGG's alteration of the lead I wrote and, a minute later, removal of the Tibi section which I wrote, qualify as two reverts in several minutes. From Activism's interpretation of IR, they certainly would qualify as two reverts surely? Personally, I couldn't care less, and didn't think of it that way, until now, and even if it were true I would not regard it as anything but piffling. But since he is adding his voice to the sanction, I'd like some clarification, as requested, since the interpretation used by Activism1234 for sanctioning me seems to apply to him as well.
- When I saw both NMMGG's edit and Bali Ultimate's revert, I didn't stand by happy that the version I had written was defended. I re-examined the merits of the two edits NMMGG had made, agreed with Bali's revert of the Tibi reference, but, on doing a word check through my downloaded file of 40 odd articles on the incident, thought NMMGG's alteration to the lead reasonable (severely beaten), if questionable, and therefore I restored it, while altering the language. I did this, though I thought NMMGG's challenge to that wording underplayed what several sources confirm, that the lad wasn't simply 'beaten unconscious' but kicked repeatedly in the head, left without a pulse and, when both the medics arrived and the police roped off the area, thought by the police to be dead. The facebook account, carried in Nir Hasson (Haaretz) of him 'being almost beaten to death' written by an eyewitness who saw the assault, the paramedics, and what the police stated, was not 'sensationalist' but congruent with what later reports confirmed. The BBC doesn't say just that he was 'severely beaten'. It said: An Israeli policeman said Jamal was beaten so severely that he lost consciousness and was thought to be dead. I take the force of that so . .that far more seriously than NMMGG. Still, I accommodated NMMGG's point. This is now being used, in the updated accusation, as proof of my delinquent behaviour, rather than as evidence for scrupulous attention, as an editor. Nishidani (talk) 13:14, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- @Activism. That strike out was actually a very humorous touch. Maculosae tegmine lyncis and I rarely interact but when we do, it is by obscure allusions, and his strike out reorganization of my remark was an allusion to Mallarmé's 'il se promène,...lisant au livre de lui-même,’ (S. Mallarmé, Oeuvres complètes, Paris, Gallimard, Pléiade, (1945) rev.ed. 1984, p1563-1564, p.1564), which I appreciated. A laugh's needed when the going gets tedious.Nishidani (talk) 18:26, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- @Activism. Reminding admins that they have to consult a block log already in the complaint, and what they by training look at first, is rather pointless, esp. when you've now taken the trouble to dig up the links that point out User:Amoruso, User:Zeq or even User:Luke 19 Verse 27 as plaintiff (see their block logs) that make my record look angelic. Though responding to my block log's impression here, I have never had a problem in promptly suspending myself whenever someone has had the courtesy of notifying me of an oversight, except on one occasion, and this is not it. I am not in the category of POV-pushing settler- victimist, (or Palestinian-victimist, for that matter) article creators, disruptive reverters, and tagteaming gamesters in this troubled area. I'm already at risk of winning by default the prize editors are vying for, so I'll be brief. I posed an additional request, which should interest you. If your interpretation is correct - I cannot see it - then why are these two reverts, here and here within minutes of each other by No More Mr Nice Guy exempt from your concern about putative disruptiveness of inadvertent IR lapses? Nishidani (talk) 11:23, 31 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Activism. Where did I try to frame you as 'hired' or 'paid'? You appear to have misread a joke directed at myself about being a blow-hard, and the article has, even if taken that way, no mention I recall of people being "hired" or "paid". In a short time, It's been insinuated, on the strength of a simple word, that I am a Israelopaedophobe: someone who calls people vermin: a supporter of Holocaust-inciting language - neither you nor NMMGG find insinuating these things offensive, you use a link to insist I am given to 'personal attacks' when it was a deeply ironic comment to shake a person I thought an excellent editor and a 'friend' out of his self-destructive complacency which everyone but an admin in a hurry understood to be an amicable remonstration, and now I'm also framing you? You're losing a sense of proportion. Back to focus. Please tell me why your disputed interpretation of the 1R rule does not apply to NMMGG's two edits (perhaps there are more, but I don't waste time combing people's contribs for a page) to the same page. Nishidani (talk) 15:50, 31 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, you may have a point. Operatively you're saying that if you want to avoid 1R just make a series of edits at an ungodly hour when no one is around. People like myself, then, if, as is my practice on pages I set to build, make dozens of edits in daylight hours, they're dead set to be caught up, because all it takes for them to break 1R is for a few other editors to drop in (a) make a revert which will almost inevitably be rereverted it is so patently bad, so (b) that any consecutive work is then under a 1R sanction. I.e., the whole process of page building becomes hugely complex as, at each consecutive edit, one has to pour over the intervening edits to determine if one's next correction or edit will hit the trip-wire. If that's the case, well, (a) I deserve a sanction for the inadvertent trip (b) I can't build pages as I used to do, because given the speed I work at, it's child's play to make me inadvertently hit the trip wire. I had a month last time, for stubbornness. I reverted myself even if in genuine perplexity this time round. Whether those who want blood will be satisfied with another month or want, as an escalation, a stronger penalty, should be clarified. What length of sanction would you like (if admins see your point)? We should try to help out here, because this is a massive waste of everyone's time, since you refused to be courteous and accept both my GF and my promise I would revert, and preferred petitioning AE, before I could obtain clarification, or indeed do the revert. Nishidani (talk) 16:32, 31 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Ankhmorpork. As is my practice, I wikibanned (not I/P topic-banned) myself 2 days ago, and though that would include therefore this page, I really must protest at the abuse of the use of my log for specious argumentation. Your first two diffs, show my suspensions for edit-warring with abusive reverters in 2007, five years ago, who showed consistent utter contempt for RS and collegial editing (no excuse for my neophyte naivity in combating their deletions by breaking like them the 3R rule). By the way I went on and brought both the articles on Hebron and Haj Amin al-Husseini up to informed, academic RS-based articles of quality with a further several hundred edits. The third, re Norman Finkelstein should never be cited for the simple reason that I was blocked by User:Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry for a 3R revert which never occurred, and this fact, without my actually addressing A/1, was unblocked by User:Haukurth, who even had the courtesy to apologise for the poor way this was handled after unanimous agreement I had neither violated the 3R rule nor edit-warred.
- Outside of that, the crucial piece of evidence for my permaban was not that I revert-warred (8 reverts in 45 days over several articles, far lower than the average of those indicted there. It was that I was uncivil and indulged in personal attacks, and for this serious charge the following diff was adduced, that I had viciously attacked and offended Ashley Kennedy. User:Jehochman not noticing the date April 1 in whose spirit it was written to a fellow editor and 'friend, got upset and sanctioned me. Several editors complained that he had completely misunderstood my remark. User:Sandstein, as usual, read it with great precision and found nothing objectionable. and the block was immediately overturned.
- It's very easy to distort impressions by marshalling a block-log in the natural expectancy that no one will take the inhuman trouble to familiarize themselves with context. That happened in the the Arbcom decision leading to my permaban, where the log note by Jehochman was specifically cited as proof of my putative tendency for incivility and personal attacks. I took it on the chin. I haven't protested these oversights, and I suspend myself usually if I slip-up, without bothering AE or A/I. I have a problem, and it is not evidence of malevolent approach to wikipedia. I don't keep in mind 1R except as a blanket revert, and when notified on my page, my practice is to self-revert and self-suspend when that happens. The problem can be solved by the courtesy of notifying me, and I will self-ban myself after reverting if this happens again. I think 1 month is fair. The rules are to further the composition of encyclopedic articles, not to make their construction impossible by alienating people one dislikes. Nishidani (talk) 13:12, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- WP:EW - Note that an editor who repeatedly restores his or her preferred version is edit warring, whether or not his or her edits were justifiable: it is no defence to say "but my edits were right, so it wasn't edit warring".
- NMMGG. Whatever the verdict, I will stick to my one-month self-ban. I know there's a lot of pressure here to get the escalator going, from a prior one month for obstinacy to three months, till I get the permaban both you and Shrike (and I think Ankhmorpork and several others) would prefer. But please read the policy you cite. I was not repeatedly restoring my preferred version. I was writing and rewriting the page fluidly with an eye to whatever people (yourself included) questioned, with a regard simply to the weight of what sources reported. If I had had a preferred version, rather than a regard for the weight of sources, I wouldn't have backed your judgement against Bali Ultimate's (who restored my prior version) in the lead. Nishidani (talk) 21:58, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment by Pluto2012
Activism1234 complains because Nishidani used somewhere in the article a source that Activism1234 had removed somewhere else and to refer to another material and he counts this as a revert! Activism1234 should be forbidden to come and complain on this page per WP:GAMING, WP:LAWYERING and WP:POINT until he copies 100 times WP:AGF (with a pen, scan this and upload thi son wp:commons). Pluto2012 (talk) 06:36, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- @NMMNG : aren't you tired of coming again and again with such details and making a world of this ? What is your point ? That somebody who tags Israelis as 'youth' and Palestinians as 'children' whereas they are roughly the same age is biaised or a dangerous pov-pusher that should be topic-banned ? Somebody made a mistake. You corrected this. Great job. Would you have done this with a little bit more WP:CIVILITY would have been even better. For the remaining, any clever reader will understand that in this event, all these 'teenagers' are victims. Pluto2012 (talk) 06:06, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment by No More Mr Nice Guy
Actually, what Nishidani is "semi-graciously" talking about is the first part of that edit, which was sourced to a Haaretz article that mainly quotes from Facebook. I removed it Here and asked for sources on the talk page since only one source in a verbatim quote from Facebook used this terminology, he restored it Here. Then, about 12 hours later he made the first edit mentioned in this report. So if you're looking for a 1RR violation, that's it.
Personally, I'm more concerned about stuff like this where 16-17 year old Palestinians are called "children" (not a single source calls them that) while 13-19 year old Israelis are called "youths". No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 18:00, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- My "suspicions" are based on fact. As usual, you were "working in haste" or "from memory" or you pressed a button and something completely unexpected happened or whatever. The fact is that you put that infobox in the article, and edited the text above, below, and right next to the problem. This is not the only place where you preferred sensationalist terminology, from the original title of the article through the facebook quote to the extensive use of blogs, op-eds and editorials. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 20:52, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- @Nishidani - Let's look at the facts. 1. The article called 16-17 year old Palestinian "children" while calling 13-19 year old Israelis "youths". 2. No source calls them children. 3. You copied the infobox from another article, then proceeded to edit every single line there, including the word right before "children". These are the facts. You say you didn't notice (the word right next to something you edited). If this was one slip that would be one thing, but the general tone you've given to the article, the original title, the extensive use of a direct quote from facebook, blogs, editorials, and op-eds, often unattributed, not to mention the fact that just a few days ago you said articles like this shouldn't exist (and that was in relation to an event where a child was actually murdered), paints a different picture. I doubt the admins will bother to look into this, but those are the facts. There's also the pesky business of the 1RR violation (not including the Mondoweiss source).
@Ed, BK: WP:EW - Note that an editor who repeatedly restores his or her preferred version is edit warring, whether or not his or her edits were justifiable: it is no defence to say "but my edits were right, so it wasn't edit warring".
Are you guys setting a precedent that if someone was "trying to improve the article" then edit warring (and that's what 1RR is supposed to prevent) is not so bad? In most cases of edit warring people think they're trying to improve the article. I don't really care what you decide, as long as the decision will be applied similarly in future cases, both in regards to the 1RR violation itself as well as how much weight a history of similar infractions influences sanctions. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 21:19, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment by Maculosae tegmine lyncis
cui bono? Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 07:26, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Plus, I guess, how much time and energy is being wasted here, how much enthusiasm-sapping diversion from the real business of article-building? All this petty gaming makes me sick of the place; can sense please rule, Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 07:53, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I struck a comment above, Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 15:43, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Don't worry, mature, dispassionate, neutral article building carries on. Here for example, the Benjamin Netanyahu article is, according to the complainant's edit summary, expanded to include important info, A copy of his evaluation from his 6th grade teacher Ruth Rubenstein revealed that Netanyahu was courteous, polite, helpful, Netanyahu's work was "responsible and punctual," and that Netanyahu was friendly, disciplined, cheerful, brave, active and obedient. Gotta love the topic area. Sean.hoyland - talk 17:32, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- hmm... anyway, short of clarification on points of principle, the matter is perhaps now moot, Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 10:22, 2 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment by AnkhMorpork
Nishidani has a long history of disruptively editing IP articles. He was blocked for
This culminated in Nishidani receiving an indefinite IP topic ban. This indefinite topic ban was lifted after two years in 2011 topic-banned from I-P articles.
Since his unblock, he self-blocked for
Violating 1rr at Jerusalem,
In my view, he should receive at least a 3 month topic ban for persistent disruptive editing and as an escalation from a previous 1 month ban.
Result concerning Nishidani
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
- It seems to me that on 27 August Nishidani removed the citation to Mondoweiss, with a semi-gracious acknowledgment in his edit summary ("Actually for once NMMGG's is right.."). So he undid the material that was objected to by Activism1234 in the head of this report as 'Revert #2.' At present no citation to Mondoweiss remains in the reference list. Unless there is more to this, I suggest closing the report with no action. EdJohnston (talk) 16:25, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I really hope I'm following this correctly. I tend to agree with Ed above that this discussion could be closed. In response to Nishidani's question above, if I'm following this correctly, he is asking whether adding material sourced from a source whose acceptability is disputed by another party, after that other party has already removed that source and the information it sources from the article, qualifies as a reversion. So far as I know, the answer there is I think a qualified "No." In some cases, if, for instance, substantially the same material that had already been removed were added elsewhere in the article, like perhaps a description of an individual, that might qualify as a form of reversion and gaming the system. But, if I'm following this, and I hope someone tells me if I'm wrong, the complaint seems to be that 1RR was violated by adding different material than has been deleted from the article elsewhere in the article, with the alleged "reversion" being about using a source that is objected to. If I'm right in the above, I think I would have to say that is probably not a reversion per se. It might be some other form of sanctionable activity, but I don't think it qualifies as a reversion. I think. John Carter (talk) 17:25, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- @Nishidani: Obviously, others are free to jump in here as well, and I hope they do. With the added information about the time frame involved, I regret to say that, at least theoretically, it could be even more confusing. An apparent "reversion" of a source within minutes of that source being removed from the article could be seen, by some, as a form of unacceptable behavior, if one assumes that the edit adding the material was made knowing about the prior edit removing the material, and as some form of response to it. We are supposed to AGF of others, but in contentious areas we also know that some editors don't. We also know, that in some cases, some particularly, well, malevolent, people might do something like this in full knowledge of the situation, out of spite or vindictiveness, and assuming AGF of them is unreasonable. If there were good cause, taking into account such things as the nature of the edit, the prior history of behavior of the editors involved, etc., to think that the restoration of the source was or could have been done for base reasons, that would be potentially sanctionable in some way. And I suppose it could possibly be seen by some that adding a comparatively brief amount of text like the edit in question could conceivably be seen as being done with prior knowledge of the reversion, and thus unacceptable. I can also see how in some cases the very quick turnaround could be seen by some as being a form of retaliation, and how, in some cases, with some editors, it might be reasonable to see it as such. I can also believe that someone who might be outraged by what they might see as the temerity of such a quick retaliation might bring it here. But, in this case, I cannot see that there is any reason to believe that the edits were necessarily retaliatory in nature. John Carter (talk) 18:12, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- With the addition of the third link by Activism above, there is clear evidence that there was a violation of the 1RR rule. I was myself one of the editors who spoke to lift the topic ban on Nishidani, because the existing sanctions would also apply, including discretionary ones like those posted here. So, yeah, I have to assume that I would support some sort of appropriate sanctions here, although I admit to not being myself sure what is appropriate in this case, regarding this subject. Unfortunately, like I said above, I am comparatively new here, and I don't know the history here as well as others. I am also, honestly, a bit of an easy mark once in a while, and a bit more "generous" than others in general. Would appreciate any comments from others, particularly any familiar with previous actions in this subject area, regarding what sort of sanctions, if any, to apply in this case. John Carter (talk) 00:18, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm now convinced from reading Nishidani's edit summaries that he knew that #1 and #2 were reverts:
- Edit #1 — 07:32, 26 August 2012 (Undid revision 509170884 by No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) Rt wholesale removal based on a suspicion, not on evidence. I'll rewrite it. Don't do that again)
- Edit #2 — 12:27, 26 August 2012 (Restored almost to death as per source because Nir Hasson's account has an eyewitness mentioning police soon after marked the site as a murder scene.)
- Nishidani might have an argument that he was unaware that #3 was a revert. In any case to see a violation you would have to interpret "addition of a cite to Mondoweiss" as the thing being reverted. Nishidani was adding different material than the the text previously removed, although his newly-added text cited Mondoweiss. It is unnecessary to reach a conclusion about edit #3 being a revert to verify that 1RR was broken, since #1 and #2 are adequate, given that they are two reverts and they happened within 24 hours. I propose that Nishidani's sanction for the 1RR violation be a one-month topic ban from the I/P conflict on all pages of Wikipedia, both article and talk. EdJohnston (talk) 17:29, 3 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- A question, though: in Edit#1, Nishidani restored a section removed by NMMNG (who claimed it was a copyvio); with his next two edits he "fixed" the possible problem. If those three edits had been made in a single one, would it have been claimed as a revert? I suspect not, because the "copyvio" was being replaced by something that wasn't, even though it shared some text. On that basis, and given the doubt about Edit#3 I am unconvinced that this should be sanctionable. Black Kite (talk) 21:39, 3 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Edits #1 and #2 are the reverts that establish the case. Neither #1 or #2 is removing an alleged copyright violation. It was some text *added* by Nishidani that needed to be fixed, and he did fix it in some later edits, but that doesn't cure the original 1RR violation. Though N's revert #2 is in a sense 'understandable', since he intends to fix the copyvio, it still counts, in my opinion. If we were to give Nishidani credit for good intentions we might not be here, since he was trying to improve the article, but he technically broke 1RR. EdJohnston (talk) 15:14, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Yeah, which is my point really Ed ... would we block someone for a technical 3RR under normal editing if it was clear they were trying to improve the article? WP:IAR sort of applies here. If we're going to sanction Nishidani for this, I would suggest it should be a "technical" topic ban that matches the "offence", i.e. one day or something. Black Kite (talk) 18:18, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- If you have an idea for closing this, please go ahead. I won't object to a shorter sanction. Since the case has been open so long, it's clear there is no strong feeling one way or the other in the admin corps. EdJohnston (talk) 19:12, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Closing. Nishidani is banned for one month from the topic of the Arab-Israeli conflict anywhere in Wikipedia. The ban covers articles, talk pages, user talk and Wikipedia-space discussions. He is allowed to appeal the ban itself in the usual way. EdJohnston (talk) 04:12, 6 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
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