Talk:Sydney anti-Islam film protests

Bias?

Considering that the orignal list of perpetrators included "Nutcases and Hypocrites" I think it's fair to say that the original writer of this article has a bias and this article should be checked against factual information that's out there.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Onthehook (talk • contribs)

Please explain to me where there is any bias in the article? All of this information can be found in those links. By the way, if the perpetrators were not Islamists then who were they? The tooth fairy?--Collingwood26 (talk) 21:18, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

Why is this protest called a "riot" in the title and lead. No reliable independent media have used that term. Bias? I will also support any action to redirect this page to the worldwide article. This page is just short term news, not worthy of a standalone article. WWGB (talk) 06:54, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

Actually ten news and I think nine news labelled the protest as a riot, I remember recalling that term being used several times in their reports, it's obviously a bit sensationalised but they're nonetheless reliable sources. YuMaNuMa ^Contrib 10:34, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

As you can see, YuMaNuMa, this article has instantly been met with leftist bias which wishes to scrub Wikipedia of politically inconvenient history. Apparently WWGB has consulted "all reliable independent media" and concluded that these events were never described as riots. I congratulate whoever took the initiative to actually begin the composition of the article, which would have been completely ignored otherwise by the majority of the Wikipedia community.Bobinisrael (talk) 16:16, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

This article could certainly be better written, but I disagree that it should be marked for deletion. This event is significant and had a major public response in Australia. It deserves to be included although some of the current language seems a little colloquial for a wikipedia article. Betchaboy —Preceding undated comment added 12:30, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

The very fact that this event is being considered for deletion is a damning indictment of the pervasive leftist bias the infects Wikipedia and seeks to propagandise the uninitiated reader.Bobinisrael (talk) 16:16, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

needs a little more TLC; but is significant enough an event that it should not be deleted. 58.165.31.232 (talk) 15:45, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

No Opinion on deletion etc... Just from a grammar point of view shouldn't the title be "2012 Sydney Islamist riots"? Islamic riots doesn't make any sense. You don't say that guy is islamic, you say he's a muslim or an islamist. A riot can't be called islamic... unless its some sort of religious thing they do every year!!! :D like: "I really enjoyed the islamic riots this year, the floats were much better than last year" LOLAlertboatbanking (talk) 19:12, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

I agree, "Islamist" is an appropriate term to describe these riots/demonstrations/protests, considering the nature of the "participants", their placards, slogans, and statements to the media. Unfortunately, there is a widespread effort to sanitise these articles and cleanse them of references to either Islam or Muslims.Bobinisrael (talk) 02:18, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

I think it's correct, "Islamic riots" means that the riots are of or pertain to Islam. Correct me if I'm wrong. YuMaNuMa ^Contrib 02:21, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

I agree that the article pertains to islam. Specifically political Islam. The ideology of the people at this protest was islamist which has a clear well-understood meaning. The folks saying other people are not allowed to criticize their prophet are making a political statement that goes beyond their belief in their own god/book/etc, that political statement pertains to islam and is called islamist. We can safely assume that there are some muslims who do not agree with silencing other people. These people (very hated by the islamists) are not islamists, and they didn't go to this rally. Thus the rally should be call by the well understood name of the people who went to the rally.

For example if there's an pro-life rally in Oklahoma, we don't call it a christian rally even though you can be sure that all of the people there are Christians and the reason they are there is deeply related to their Christianity and many Christians agree with them. It just doesn't convey the correct meaning. Alertboatbanking (talk) 20:39, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

It's ridiculous to label every Muslim who disagrees with the anti-Islam film an "Islamist". This is exactly why the vast majority of reliable sources call these protests in response to the anti-Islam film. See section below for examples.VR _talk 20:44, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

More inconsistency at Wikipedia serving so-called "politically correct" agendas.

Why is this article (accurately) titled "Sydney Islamic riots", while the terrorist attacks/riots/demonstrations/protests targeting consulates and embassies in Muslim-majority countries (Cairo, Benghazi, Tunis, Khartoum, etc) aren't labelled as Islamic/ist? The other article is generically titled "2012 diplomatic missions attacks", with no reference to the Islamic/ist character of the events. The answer for this discrepancy is obvious, and stated in the header of this section. Bobinisrael (talk) 16:09, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

This article shouldn't be titled "Sydney Islamic riots". The term "Islamic" implies that this riot is a part of Islam or enjoyed a support of the majority of Muslims in Australia, both of which are false.VR _talk 19:35, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

The term does NOT imply that these events enjoy a support of the majority of Muslims any more than defining the 9/11 terrorist attacks as "Islamic/ist terrorism" does. Islamism is a core component of these events, and your suggestion seeks to obfuscate this truth. What the term indicates is that there is an Islamic character to these events, which is undeniable given the fact that the participants/rioters/agitators/demonstrators are shouting things like "Obama! Obama! We love Osama!", holding signs stating "Behead Those Who Insult The Prophet", and took a break from their activities to get down on their knees for group Muslim prayer session. You are trying to sanitise the article of references to Islam and Muslims in order to conform to the dominant so-called "politically correct" narrative on Wikipedia, which is EXACTLY what I'm trying to demonstrate here at Wikipedia through my contributions. Your post reaffirms my position, and for that I thank you.Bobinisrael (talk) 20:29, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

WP:DNFTT. This user has stated that he does not wish to interact in a WP:CIVIL fashion with other editors or comply with Wikipedia policy in general, spilling onto yet another talk page now. Ignoring him is best. – 2001:db8:: (rfc | diff) 21:42, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

Right, because the glaring inconsistency of the articles and misleading titles in question are not relevant topics to discuss. Better to pretend that these problem don't exist, right? I have also never said that I will be not be civil, but I reject your definition of civility which is essentially a demand for acquiescence to consensus around dishonest politicisation of articles. 2001:db8 continues to obsess over niceties rather than content. Bobinisrael (talk) 22:01, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

I believe that this article should be kept (ie. I am against the deletion request), although obviously the wording and title of this article needs to be carefully monitored to ensure it remains neutral and free from over emotive wording from either side. --TinTin (talk) 05:09, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Why has the concept "protests" (in the text) come to the article title as "riots"? This does not make it an objective article, beginning from the wrong title... --E4024 (talk) 08:48, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

So which word is inaccurate? Riots or protests? If you'd actually take a moment to look at footage from these events, it's not a stretch to describe them as riots. The Muslim rioters/agitators/protesters/agitators were assaulting police officers all over the place. Bobinisrael (talk) 14:35, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

I am a muslim and have not hit anyone since I was a kid. I also watch BBC everyday. Does it reach Israel, or do you watch IDF raids live there? Take care. --E4024 (talk) 14:42, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

In other words, you cannot answer my straightforward question, and continue to reveal your commitment to sanitising the true character of these events. The evidence is abundant that much of these events can be accurately described as riots. For your convenience, here is the definition of a riot:

1.a noisy, violent public disorder caused by a group or crowd of persons, as by a crowd protesting against another group, a government policy, etc., in the streets.

2.Law . a disturbance of the public peace by three or more persons acting together in a disrupting and tumultuous manner in carrying out their private purposes.

3.violent or wild disorder or confusion.

All of the above criteria apply to the events in Sydney, much to your dismay. Bobinisrael (talk) 16:38, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

7news has described this as a riot. Bobinisrael (talk) 17:09, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Bobinisrael, didn't you just claim that media use the term "Muslim protests" to describe the events. So does that mean you prefer the term "protests" over "riots" to describe the events?VR _talk 22:08, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

I've stated, clearly, that reports are mixed and seem to interchangeably use the terms "riots" and "protests" to refer to these events. I've seen many sources use both terms, sometimes even in the very same article. Bobinisrael (talk) 22:54, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Ah, so you would then agree that using the term "protests" in the title is legitimate since so many reliable sources use it?VR _talk 01:01, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Proposed temporary move

I propose to move the article, at least temporarily, to 2012 Sydney anti-Islam film protests. Here are my reasons:

• the term "protests" covers both peaceful and violent protests, but the term "riots" only covers the violent protests. According to Australian media, there were peaceful protests.
• "anti-Islam film" is better than "Islamic" because that was the whole reason for the protests and riots. It is hard to prove that these events were representative of Muslims in Australia. Most news sources (both Australian and international) describe the protests as over an "anti-Islam film" or "anti-Muslim film" and not simply "Islamic": Sydney Morning Herald, Brisbane Times, Australia Broadcasting Corporation, The Age (Melbourne), The Australian, Sky News Australia, AFP, Vancouver Sun, Xinhua, Channel News Asia, Haaretz, BBC News, CBS News.

VR _talk 15:45, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Your own links contradict your assertion. The first link you provided from the Syndey Morning Herald states, in the first twelve seconds of the video, that "This was supposed to be a peaceful protest, but as you can tell by the sirens behind me it has turned out to be anything but. The link also quotes Prime Minister Julia Gillard as condemning the violence. The third link is titled "Violent Sydney Protests". You cannot reconcile these facts with your narrative of their having been peaceful protests. How many sub-groups are we to divide these rioters/demonstrators/protesters into? Should we have an article for the violent participants, the not-so-violent participants, and Islamist messaging participants, and the peaceful participants? Are you now going to tell us that the violence only came from a "tiny minority" that "wasn't representative" of the broader group? There are many more example from your own links completely contradicting your narrative, but I'll leave it there. My advice to you is this: try actually reading your own links in the future. Bobinisrael (talk) 20:51, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

The Sydney Morning Herald link clearly says "The protest began peacefully at Town Hall at lunchtime, where 400 protesters had gathered after receiving text messages and social media updates."

The link titled "Violent Sydney Protests" also says: "While the protest started peacefully enough on Saturday afternoon, with some 300 people marching from Sydney Town Hall to Martin Place."

Brisbane Times: "The vast bulk of Saturday's protesters were peaceful, and Muslim community organisations are lining up to condemn the outbreak of violence."

Channel News Asia: "But police said while there were peaceful elements in the crowd, others had a different agenda."

No on is denying that violence occurred. But you should not deny that much of the protests were actually peaceful and not-violent.VR _talk 00:37, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

More evidence of the Islamist character of these demonstrations/riots/protests.

Video from Russia Today's official channel (there are many other sources I can provide) clearly show these theme. I do not know how to edit and cite articles, so perhaps someone would be kind enough to add to the third paragraph the fact that signs were held stating the following: "Our dead are in paradise, your dead are in hell", "Shariah will dominate the world".

Here is another video from the Associated Foreign Press, which unfortunately has been deliberately edited to mask the prevalence of extremism/Islamism, although signs with Islamist messaging can still be seen ("Behead those who insult the prophet", "The followers of Muhammad will never stay silent even if it costs us our lives", black Islamist/Al-Qaeda flags, etc). Bobinisrael (talk) 16:57, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

I agree call a spade a spade. It's plenty obvious this was not an "anti-islam protest". It was an islamist protest/riot/etc. I'm agnositic on whether it should have its own article or be part of the whole video reaction article (as long as the important verifiable information is not removed). However if it is kept it should be called islamist not islamic as I explained explained earlier based on grammatical correctness.Alertboatbanking (talk) 20:16, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

What of the plenty of reliable sources that call the protests as against "anti-Islam film". Please see the many, many sources, I've quoted above.VR _talk 20:18, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

There's no problem with using both descriptors for the article. It can be described as an Islamist riot/demonstration/protest in response to a film. The Islamist component, however, is crucial to honestly describing the character of these events. Bobinisrael (talk) 20:38, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

I was referring to the title of the article. Most reliable sources describe the protests to be in response to the anti-Islam film. Everything must be sourced to reliable sources.VR _talk 20:45, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Considering you don't even read your own links, your assessment of how "most reliable sources" describe these events cannot be taken seriously. Many sources I've come across describe these events as "Muslim riots". In about five seconds, I found these articles describing the events as "Muslim protests":

Herald Sun - No hiding as police hunt angry mob photographed during violent Muslim protests in Sydney

ABC Sydney - Muslim protests

9NEWS - Islamic protest sparks violence in Sydney

Global News - Muslim protest spread to Sydney

The Courier - Sydney ride verges on riot as Muslim protest explodes

Bobinisrael (talk) 21:04, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

So you are now suggesting we call the protests as "Muslim protests"? That unfairly stigmatizes the whole Muslim community.

And the sources you provided all appear to be local Australian sources. Which is fine, but we many other Australian sources (Sydney Morning Herald, Brisbane Times, Australia Broadcasting Corporation, The Age (Melbourne), The Australian, Sky News Australia) call the protests as against the anti-Islam film. This is also the wording used by most international sources as well: AFP, Vancouver Sun, Xinhua, Channel News Asia, Haaretz, BBC News, CBS News.

Once again, it is most neutral to refer to the protests as anti-Islam film protests, because plenty of Muslims have spoken out against what happened at the events, and the protests are not representative of the Muslim community in Australia.VR _talk 21:32, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

I've stated my position, I think the title should include the term Islamist, as well as a reference to the YouTube movie trailer "Innocence of Muslims", either by name or otherwise. To remove the Islamist/ic component from the title serves only to advance a dishonest so-called "politically correct" narrative. The common denominator among the rioters/demonstrators/protesters/agitators was Islam. You cannot demand a virtually unprovable standard such as majority support from Muslims towards something before that very something can be described as Islamist/ic. Bobinisrael (talk) 23:01, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Ok VR, so I grant you, there is a possibility that there were some people there who were protesting anti-islam expression but did not support the suppression of that expression (I doubt it, but lets say it was true) let's say we don't call the protests islamists because there may have been some people there who didn't support political islam what do you propose? "The anti-anti-islam movie protest"? :D there needs to be some kind of shorthand way of approximately describing the nature of a thing. I think I'm being reasonable here.Alertboatbanking (talk) 21:13, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

I've given a very simple alternative "2012 Sydney anti-Islam film protests". This is the same thing that is being proposed at Talk:2012 diplomatic missions attacks (minus the Sydney part).VR _talk 21:32, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

That is a horribly titled article. It has omitted the Islamist/ic component from a transparently dishonest political agenda. You seem to be playing the usual game that comes from the left who wishes to pretend that both Islam and Muslim are four-letter curse words. Bobinisrael (talk) 23:03, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

I will politely ask you not to ascribe a political ideology to me. Please see policies on WP:CIVIL.VR _talk 00:59, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Full text required

There is content that is sourced to an article called "Extremists seen among Muslim Rioters at Sydney Protest". Can we get the full text of the article? Some of the content makes negative claims about living persons.VR _talk 20:25, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Title

The title is both wrong and misleading, a news reporter asked questions to these rioters and the majority claimed they had never even seen the film, which means these people or even the majority were not truly protesting against the anti-Islam film, and most had their own "agenda". Also the media has not named this an "anti-Islam film protest", many news sources have either called it a muslim riot, muslim uprising, and some have even called it a "street battle". Using the term "protest" implies it was peaceful which again is misleading, the event was violent NOT peaceful, it should either be called the 2012 Sydney Islamist Riot, or 2012 Sydney Muslim Riot.--Collingwood26 (talk) 23:34, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Predictably, the title of this article has been dishonesty edited. How do we go about changing it back? I do not know how to change titles and I do not wish to waste my time only to find it reverted again. Bobinisrael (talk) 00:39, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Actually most Muslims protesting against the movie have likely not seen it, given the fact that it is so offensive to them.

You must acknowledge that peaceful protests took place that day, just as violent protests did. I've given reliable sources showing that that has happened. In fact most reliable sources call these events "protests".

Even Bobinisrael has found reliable sources that call the events "protests".VR _talk 00:44, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

What's your point, exactly? The events have been reported with all sorts of language, including protests, riots, and demonstrations. Moreover, how do we acknowledge the violent nature of much of the folks involved? The videos and news coverage make this clear. Personally, I am not opposed the title choosing the term "protest", as long as there is a mention in the body of the article that there were descriptions of at least part of these events as being riotous. Moreover, the title of article MUST include some mention of Islamist/ic nature of the events. Bobinisrael (talk) 01:03, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

I agree the body must cover the violent acts.

The title does include "anti-Islam film", so if you are looking for the word "Islam", its already there.

The word "Islamic", as has been pointed out, is grammatically incorrect since the protests are not a part of Islam.

To brand all the protests as "Islamist" is far from obvious, cause many people were peacefully holding signs "I love prophet Muhammad". How does holding such a sign automatically make you an Islamist?

And to call these protests "Muslim" gives way too much credibility to the small group of people (around 500 people out of 500,000 Muslims in Australia). In fact some Muslim leaders in Australia have urged their followers not to protest at all.

VR _talk 02:30, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

We're going in circles, here. It is clear that you are deliberately trying to obfuscate the common denominator of Islam that unifies virtually all of the rioters/demonstrators/agitators/protesters, as well as downplay the violent character of these events. The evidence speaks for itself. Bobinisrael (talk) 04:05, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

The most specific common denominator is that they were all protesting against the anti-Islam film. This is what the reliable sources say. (To see a list of reliable sources that say this, look at this comment of mine)VR _talk 13:19, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

I would also like to point out the these "protests" were NOT authorised by any governing body, and the police were not notified of any plans for a "protest", this offers further proof that it was both illegal (in a sense) and violent.--Collingwood26 (talk) 02:55, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

That fact alone proves only that it was unauthorised. As I'm not fluent or 100% conversant in the law in this area (unlike perhaps you), I can only say it might have also been illegal. But I don't understand your suggestion that it was violent because it was unauthorised/illegal. --Merbabu (talk) 06:32, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

What do you mean "suggestion it was violent"??? It was violent, thats a clear fact, many people were wounded during the riots hardly peaceful.--Collingwood26 (talk) 07:12, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Read your previous comment again. You said the lack of notification is proof it was violent. I disagree with that logic. That is all. --Merbabu (talk)|

Perhaps you didn't read it properly it says this offers further proof that it was both illegal AND violent, in other words not only was the protest violent in nature it was also illegal.--Collingwood26 (talk) 08:02, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

OH I see why Merbabu is against this article, its because he is muslim...--Collingwood26 (talk) 08:04, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, double fail. I voted to keep on the AFD (just like you), and what makes you think I'm a Muslim? Stupid comment. But so what if I was? Are you saying a Muslim should not contribute? Would a Muslim be any more biased compared to a Muslim hater such as yourself? (since you're making sweeping assumptions, allow me the same pleasure) And, using your (again faulty) logic, do you only support the article because you are a Muslim hater? DOn't assume that others think (as stupidly) as you. --Merbabu (talk) 08:23, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

And one more time, the fact that it was was unauthorised doesn't prove it was (or wasn't) violent. I find it hard to understand how you don't' get this. --Merbabu (talk) 08:27, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Images

Many, many more images under the Creative Commons Attribution 2.0 license are available in this photostream if you guys need it, 1. YuMaNuMa ^Contrib 03:08, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Citations tag

I'm removing the tag requesting more citations. I can't see a discussion specifically about it. Most points in the article have a footnote (although I have not checked each one to see if they are reliable or correctly used). Given that there are actually a fair few footnotes, if additional ones a needed, and inline cn tag/s should be used rather than a blanket banner. cheers --Merbabu (talk) 08:53, 19 September 2012 (UTC)