Talk:Albanian Regiment (France): Difference between revisions
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'''But can we correct or alter the original reference?'''<br /> |
'''But can we correct or alter the original reference?'''<br /> |
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Obviously Col. Elting (not a historian) is mistaken talking about "3.000 muslem Albanians". No other source supports this and he doesn't document it with a footnote. Ommitting the word "muslem" equals to interpretation and correction of the source which we cannot do, I suppose, because it leaves the door open to an interpretation as "muslems and christians" or "christians" which makes a big diference. Unless we find another source talking about "3.000 muslem Albanians" I propose we leave aside this source altogether. Alternatively, we can add Elting as a marginal source ("according to..."). Here is another source, based on Pappas etc, not aggreeing at all with Elting: [http://www.istorie.ugal.ro/anale/10/1005%20PAGRATIS.pdf]. |
Obviously Col. Elting (not a historian) is mistaken talking about "3.000 muslem Albanians". No other source supports this and he doesn't document it with a footnote. Ommitting the word "muslem" equals to interpretation and correction of the source which we cannot do, I suppose, because it leaves the door open to an interpretation as "muslems and christians" or "christians" which makes a big diference. Unless we find another source talking about "3.000 muslem Albanians" I propose we leave aside this source altogether. Alternatively, we can add Elting as a marginal source ("according to..."). Here is another source, based on Pappas etc, not aggreeing at all with Elting: [http://www.istorie.ugal.ro/anale/10/1005%20PAGRATIS.pdf]. |
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:It doesn't mention anything that could be used in this article.--<span style="background-color: maroon; color: white">[[User:ZjarriRrethues|<font color="white">'''— ''ZjarriRrethues'' —'''</font>]]</span> <sup>[[User_talk:ZjarriRrethues|talk]]</sup> 13:08, 28 September 2012 (UTC) |
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==Primary and other sources== |
==Primary and other sources== |
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Revision as of 13:08, 28 September 2012
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Constructive work needed
The present version of the article says that the "Alb. Reg." was manned by muslim Albanians. However, many sources (including Minot) make clear that the conscripts were certainly christians and at least part of them were Greeks. The present references of the article are at least hopeless.
Also it doesn't fit with the ref. in Souliotes that the latter served in the "Albanian R.".
I invite serious WPists to forget nationalistic propaganda and contribute to a version that makes sense. --Euzen (talk) 10:25, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
- What the sources say is that the early Russian unit was manned by Muslim Albanians, that later became the backbone of the new unit. Of course until it became the formation it was in 1809, the composition changed over time.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 11:54, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
Not "sources" but "a source" which can be added as "according to". Unfortunatelly for this source, it will be proved wrong by other undisputable sources and archival material.
Obviously you are working scenarios to avoid the fact that "Albanian" meaned "mercenary from the Levant".
And guess what: Some of those "Albanians" were Serbs, decorated during the wars in Italy in 1798. Names of decorated "Macedoni" (from Italian source) who later became "Albanesi": Giorgio Lalic, Demetrio Lecca, Marino Consolic, Antonio Viscovic, Angelo Robusco, Giovan Abramovic etc.--176.58.186.206 (talk) 18:46, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
(The above was posted by me, user "Euzen"). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.58.186.206 (talk) 18:47, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
- Euzen, source deletion and misrepresentation as an IP isn't prudent especially when you've been blocked twice regarding it and have been warned about logging out and then editing as an IP. This article isn't about units in Italy, but even so I wouldn't throw around names of people I know nothing about. I've added every possible ethnicity that was enrolled in the regiment. The only mention that I can remove is the religious classification as of the sources only one mentions that difference. Btw did you read Boppe's work? Except for religious part, which he doesn't mention, there's nothing exceptional to justify your BLP comment.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 19:58, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
But can we correct or alter the original reference?
Obviously Col. Elting (not a historian) is mistaken talking about "3.000 muslem Albanians". No other source supports this and he doesn't document it with a footnote. Ommitting the word "muslem" equals to interpretation and correction of the source which we cannot do, I suppose, because it leaves the door open to an interpretation as "muslems and christians" or "christians" which makes a big diference. Unless we find another source talking about "3.000 muslem Albanians" I propose we leave aside this source altogether. Alternatively, we can add Elting as a marginal source ("according to..."). Here is another source, based on Pappas etc, not aggreeing at all with Elting: [1].
- It doesn't mention anything that could be used in this article.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 13:08, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
Primary and other sources
I post here a draft version I created recently, contributing original Greek sources that are unaccessible to "learned" westerners who claim to know everything.
History of the Regiment
The Regiment passed from the Russians to the French in 1807.[1]
In Perraivos' text the title "Albanian Regiment" is used only in an official letter submitted by the unit to its commander Minot.[2] In the rest of the text he unofficially refers the unit as "Hellenic Corps" (Ελληνικόν σώμα)[3]. He refers to Greek conscripts,[4] while in one occasion makes a clear reference to Albanians[5].
In other primary sources the fighters of the precursor of the unit are refered as "Greeks", "Epiroto-Souliotes" and "Chimaro-Peloponnesians" (from Chimara and Peloponnesus).[6]
- ^ ” When the French re-captured Corfu (1807) with no war, the Russians transfereed us to the French as hostages"(Perraivos, p. 77).
- ^ “We, the Officers of the Albanian Regiment, to Lord Colonel Minot, commander of the Regiment. ... Corfu, April 7, 1810."
- ^ Perraivos, p. 76 bottom line, p. 77 bottom l. In page 81 the author reports that Minot was appointed by Napoleon himshelf as commander of the “Hellenic Corps”
- ^ p. 77, up. "Before the (Russian commander) Shinevin departs ... had promoted the author of this history to the rank of Major, ordering him to conscript new Greek soldiers and to pass to Hagia Maura (Leucada) as a garisson."
- ^ p. 75. “After one year a war broke out between Russia and France. The “Alvanitae” (Albanians) too, (among others) went to Napoli with the Russians.”
- ^ Under the Russians, a general named Emmanouel Papadopoulos had issued in Corfu a manual of fighing tactics titled "Military Teaching for use by the Greeks" (1804) and a regulation with the title "Details about the establishment of the Legeon of Epiroto-Souliotes and Chimaro-Peloponnesians" (1805). This legeon expedited in autumn 1805 to Italy, having in its ranks Fotos Tzavellas and his wife, Christos Kalogeros from Chameria and the hero of the Greek Revolution Niketaras. In: Kallivretakis Leonidas, Greek Armed Units in the turmoil of the Napoleonic Wars (1798-1815), History of New Hellenism, p. 190. In Greek. Available at http://helios-eie.ekt.gr/EIE/handle/10442/8780/
- Perraivos's 19th century account with its many gaps and personal stories is useless. Not to mention that the issues that you wish to add are raised by you and aren't part of the scholarly discourse. The second part can be found in Pappas's work and it's obviously a different unit, whose Suliots must have been later incorporated in other units like the Pandours de Albanie and then to the Albanian Regiment.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 11:51, 15 September 2012 (UTC)