Talk:Turkish War of Independence

This should be added

I've got this from the Treaty of Lausanne. This should be added into the article. If none does it, I'll do it. Treaty of Lausanne, Article 59: "Greece recognises her obligation to make reparation for the damage caused in Anatolia by the acts of the Greek army or administration which were contrary to the laws of war.

On the other hand, Turkey, in consideration of the financial situation of Greece resulting from the prolongation of the war and from its consequences, finally renounces all claims for reparation against the Greek Government." Source: http://www.lib.byu.edu/~rdh/wwi/1918p/lausanne.html

Template:WikiProjectWars

Author's comment regarding Wikipedia's above advice (to move the page): This war was not only between Greece and Turkey. It was between the Allies and Turkey, as a consequence of the World War I. Greco-Turkish War constituted this war's western front, starting more than a year afterwards. Although the decisive battles were between Greece and Turkey, this page has more information than what can be put under the title "Greco-Turkish War". The current page of Greco-Turkish War includes an unrelated war from the previous century, therefore that page has more information than what can be placed under the title of "Turkish War of Independence". Given that neither page can possibly be a subset of the other, they can not be merged. - 18.58.1.180

I disagree with the above (which I copied from the page). The Turkish Independence War, while very important to Turks and a main part of their history, is a term only used in Turkey. Other nations refer to it as World War I (up to the Treaty of Sèvres), and then the (Second) Greco-Turkish War (up to the Treaty of Lausanne). Since this is an English Wikipedia which takes a predominantly western POV, the events that eventually lead to the creation of modern Turkey should in my opinion be treated from this POV: thus split the info in WW1-in-Turkey and 2nd Greco-Turkish war. Of course a note that these events are by Turks seen as one single war for their independence from what they saw as invading and occupying nations is needed at both places. — Jor (Talk) 11:11, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Author:

• First, there were many other wars between Greeks and Turks, so I don't see the point of naming only two as such.
• Second, the events that are included in this page are strictly limited to 1919-1922, therefore there is nothing to be split in the page to be included in WW1. The events that Turks name as their Independence War do not include WW1 as wrongly mentioned in the coment above. That's why the pre-war politics section begins by saying "WW1 ended..."
• Third, until mid-1920, Greeks weren`t even the primary enemy. As I will detail in the "western front" section, Greek troops were only in Izmir and its surroundings until that time. Even then, the Greek offensive started coordinated with an Armenian offensive in the East. The Eastern Turkish Army could not reinforce the western front until after Battle of Sakarya. As in this example, the war needs to be studied in all fronts for a proper analysis. That is why I avoided the title "Greco-Turkish War".
• just to clarify things, I don't have an aversion to that title or contents of the page, in fact, I was the one to add details to the second war in that page last week.
• Finally, they could be merged with the second one if the Greco-Turkish Wars had separate entries, but even then, the name underrepresents the number of participating countries. It is like saying Israel-Egypt War instead of Arab-Israeli War; as in that case Israel's main opponent was Egypt but they fought against their other Arab neighbors as well.
• This has nothing to do with what Turks call this war, I am trying to be accurate here. The western POV was a product/propaganda of the British, who gave this war a convenient name as an attempt to clear their name. They were ashamed of their war-mongering in the face of other nations of the world in 1922. Why do you think Lausanne Treaty was between Turkey and Allies, instead of Turkey and Greece? Because the preceding war was between Turkey and Allies too. I wouldn't object "War in Asia Minor", or "Anatolian War", or something like those, a title without reducing the entire war to one front.

The name of this article is totally incorrect. It's just a translation error. Turks call this war "Kurtuluş Savaşı" or "İstiklâl Savaşı" both of which have nothing to do with independence. Possible correct translations could be "Turkish War of Liberation" or "Turkish War of Freedom". Turkey was already a recognized independent state before the war. Zfr 21:17, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)

   Translation is totally correct. İstiklal(Bağımsızlık) means independence in Turkish.

Not knowing Turkish, I can't comment on the literal translation, but this conflict is not one that I, a native speaker of English, would call a "war of independence", for exactly the reasons that Zfr put forth above. Both of Zfr's translations seem plausible as would calling it the "Turkish Revolution", tho I doubt that would be a literal translation. Caerwine 06:06, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

There was a title called "El Cezire". This doesn't even sound Turkish. I removed it do anyone know why it was there? 26 Jan 2006

WWI & Armenian Genocide Link

Links to World War I and Armenian Genocide are appropriate because those articles provides critical background for understanding The Turkish War of Independence/Anatolian War, which immediately followed those events. In fact, the Treaty of Lausanne not only effectively ended World War I in the East, but also put a final end to the independent Armenian Republic established under the Treaty of Sevres.

???? ^^^^^^^ What is this piece of 'drivel' doing here? Which 'Greece' did 'Thrace' belong to - there was no 'greece' pre 1821 - So called 'Greece' was set-up by Russians/British/French? from a Former Region of Ottomon Empire.

Hellenic/Byzantium empire was dissolved in 1453 - they lost out not because they were too nice/civilised or anything - but too weak. 15th century technology put an end to their rule.

Hellenic empire/city-'states' - just like all empires - depended on slavery; don't glorify its achievements without pinning down its costs to non-hellenes.

I disagree with putting Armenian Genocide here because the independence war starts in 1919 - and its background is that the empire is basically disolved after the WWI ending treaty - the Treaty of Sevres. So 1915 events don't really have any major impact here. This is also evident when you look at the timeline section - shows nothing about Armenians Genocide. Kizilmaske 08:46, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

I think he is right.The bastard İttihat ve Terakki Cemiyeti who ordered the evacuation of every living Armenian in the Eastern zones was gone by the time this war started.Its head was dwelling in Moscow.Later I learned he died in battle.Correct if I'm wrong.--Turkish Legacy 21:19, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

East-(Armenian & Georgia) section violates NPOV

The language and the events drescribed there reflect one POV only. I find some of the comments there offensive. Some claims are also baseless. More to come here but obviously this section needs quite some work before it can reflect a balanced view. Kizilmaske 08:54, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

What claims are baseless? Most of the things I see are historically accurate. Before the last edit the whole article violated the NPOV, as it was basically a laundry list of Turkish nationalist accomplishments and bragging about "crushing" Armenia.- Kwsty

Hmm, I am pretty sure the East war was against the Russians. Russian soldiers exclusively fought against Gen. Karabekir. Correct me if I am wrong. So why is the Armenian and Georgians mentioned here? I think this is incorrect. Will dig up some historical info when I get the chance. 26 Jan 2006

That is also in the Combatants side box as well. We need to add Russia there. Also really don't think there was a war againt Armenia. 26 Jan 2006

Are you being sarcastic? There surely was war against Armenia and Georgia, but I can't recall if there had been any major battles against RSFSR.

No dude wtf are you talking about? The war against Armenia is a stupid myth made up by Jews, the actual Turkish war of Independence was fought against Chinese forces under Chiang Kai-Sheck, aided by his warlord generals and receiveng help from Japanese emperor Hitohito. You have to remember that it was primarily due to the Turkish-Greek alliance that asian armies were eventually defeated. But Turkey must also be thankful to the governments of Texas and South Africa, both of which supplied the Turkish army with much needed oil, supplies, and raw materials.

I agree that this article is not neutral in its point of view, is simplistically anti-British or at least anti-European, the Armenian genocide should of course be linked from it. The First World War was of course dreadful and its aftermath appalling but one side to it was the resurgence of National identities that saw the demise not only of the Ottoman Empire but sowed the seed for the eventual dismantling of the British Empire.

Istanbul (Not Constantinople)?

Considering that the name of the city was not offically changed to Istanbul until 1930, well after the era of this article, wouldn't it be more appropriate to use Constantinople along with an in-text reference that the city is now called Istanbul the first time the city is mentioned? That is what is used in the article for Smyrna (Izmir). Caerwine Caerwhine 05:19, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm a user from Turkey...U said İstanbul isn't the name of Constantinapole until 1930...it is not true. When the Ottomans took this city, it changed İstanbul. Because, İslamic rules said this. Non-İslamic areas must be named in Turkish or Arabic. And İstanbul was İstanbul in the Turkish Independence War (İstiklal/Bağımsızlık Savaşı). ---İm not a member of English Wikipedia. İf u want to ask me anything, my e-mail adress is bkuddas@yahoo.com. And I want to say something about this war. İt's very important for Turkey. We changed our government system and our religion system. You know, only Turkey is a laic country of all İslamic countries. Tomorrow is (April 23) our democracy holiday...Our assembly was opened in April 23th 1920. And we know, if there wasn't a war of indepence and Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, we still have a Sultan and haven't freedom. I'm not good at English and i cant tell how important that war for Turkish people. But must say, this holiday for all of the children. And a present from Turkey to children. --88.226.58.231 22:31, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

I said that it wasn't changed officially until 1930, not that it wasn't called that by people at all until then. See Istanbul#Etymology for the details of how Konstantiniye became İstanbul. Wikipedia has a built in bias towards offical names. Caerwine Caerwhine 15:13, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Grammar and Spelling

My Turkish is rusty at best, but the English of the article's author is not much better and a great deal of the article is almost impossible to read. I would suggest that someone correct the worst grammatical atrocities and spelling genocides after the original author has finished his (or her) literary bloodbath. Theolein 00:06, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Independence/Liberation

I was doing some brainstorming about the use of Independece and Liberation words for the war. Basically, the Turkish War of 1919-1922 was fought against the occupying forces of Ottoman Empire. I assume nobody argues that Ottoman Empire was the sovereign state since 1299. My point is: "independence" word itself refers to gaining control of your soil after being a part of another state [1],[2]. If you look at the [Liberation Day] article, you can also find the description of liberation as "...a revolution, as in Cuba, or the end of an occupation by another state, thereby differing from independence in the meaning of secession from another state...". Finally, "Turkish War of 1919-1922" can be analysed in the perspective of secession from "Ottoman Empire" and it can also be analysed as being a war against the occupying forces. Since the lands of Ottoman Empire never actually changed hands, if we draw a spectrum at one end being "a war against occupying forces" and at the other end "a war of independence", my vote will tend towards the "war against occupying forces", which then results in calling the war as "Turkish War of Liberation". Therefore I suggest changing the name of the article to "Turkish War of Liberation" and directing the current name to the article. Cansın 5 May 2006