Talk:Sherman Minton

NPOV dispute

The statement that, "While a senator, Minton attempted to circumvent the Constitution" sounds more like opinion than fact. Kyleandrew1 (talk) 17:54, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Could rephrase as a broadening of legislative power. RafaelRGarcia (talk) 21:34, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

The comments about Minton voting, “in favor of order at the cost of liberty,” and being “unsympathetic” to challenges asserting violations of individual liberties, appeared to be too opinionated for Wikipedia. I deleted those statements. Kyleandrew1 (talk) 03:52, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

That removes important information about Minton's philosophy. Re-added with some more detail. RafaelRGarcia (talk) 04:19, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

War Department Clemency Board

We don't have an article on the War Department Clemency Board. I changed the article from Military tribunals to Courts-martial. Here is an article on the Clemency Board which was then being run by retired Justice Roberts from the Milwaukee Journal. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 20:41, 13 February 2010 (UTC) Stan

Copied from archived FAC page

If I've a criticism about the article as a whole (rather than these resolvable nitpicks), it's that it is to a certain extent missing the man behind the career. It comes as a genuine surprise to read in "Regular dissenter", for example, that Minton was "gregarious, backslapping [and] popular among his colleagues". It's the first time we've come across this kind of description of Minton; we're only finding out about the personal this late in the article? (And as an aside, this looks especially odd after we're told that Minton did not enjoy his later time on the Court, and that he found himself with little support in many of his opinions.) I suppose it's unavoidable if this is all the sources cover about the man, but it is a shame. Steve ^T • C

The sources I have go into a little more information on his personal life than in is the article. He was essentially a friend to friends, and an enemy to his enemies; he had many of both. I have tried to include interesting events to explain this somewhat, explaining his extreme partisanship, his troubled youth, disdain for religion, close friendships with likeminded people like Truman and Earl Major, but complete dislike for people like Eisenhower and Hugo Black. The sources I have though are wrote by people who did not know him personally and their works are based mostly off his writings and personal letters, so their summations are largely caricatures rather than detailed personality descriptions. —Charles Edward ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 22:14, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Understood, and with that explanation it's probably best to leave the bulk of their speculations out of the article. As for the "Regular dissenter" section, I think there's still an issue over the contrast between the paragraph's beginning with Minton's not enjoying his role in the later years of his Court tenure, and the description of his being "gregarious, backslapping [and] popular among his colleagues". The statement just seems misplaced there. I think the effect can be lessened by moving it; where to depends on which period it describes:

Truman's other appointees to the Court provided consistent conservative votes, and during Minton's first years on the Court it was returned to the conservatism of the William Howard Taft era. While on the Court, Minton transformed from a New Deal senator into an almost reactionary judge as an ally of Justice Felix Frankfurter. Empirical coding of votes shows that Minton was the most conservative justice on the Court during his first year, and remained in the conservative half of the court for the duration of his career. The gregarious, backslapping Minton was popular among his colleagues on the Court; he proved a soothing presence during a period marked by bitter personal feuds between strong personalities such as William O. Douglas and Felix Frankfurter.

Minton did not enjoy his judicial role on the Supreme Court in the later years of his term; he found himself more frequently in the minority following the deaths of Justices Frank Murphy and Wiley B. Rutledge and their replacement by President Eisenhower's appointees. After the death of Chief Justice Fred M. Vinson, Minton found himself with little support in many of his opinions. Minton informed Eisenhower of his intention to retire in a letter on September 7, 1956, in which he dryly stated his retirement was authorized by law. Eisenhower responded with a brief note wishing him a happy retirement. Although he did not tell the president, Minton informed the members of the Court that his duties were too taxing on his health. His anemia had steadily worsened, slowing him physically and mentally. Minton served as a Justice until October 15, 1956, retiring after 7 years and 3 days of service. He was succeeded by William J. Brennan, Jr.

Does that work better for you? O. Douglas was a Roosevelt appointee, so I think that preserves the narrative flow. Best, Steve ^T • C 08:08, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Where I was trying to go was something like this, "He disliked being in the minority and did not enjoy his lack of influence in decision making, which contributed to his desire to retire. This shift came in his last two years of his term. He was however very friendly to the other justices and worked to help them overcome their personal disagreements and maintain a degree of harmony on the court." I've integrated that thought into the section better by better explaining the nature of the feuding, Minton's reluctance to get involved, and his desire to maintain harmony. —Charles Edward ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 12:31, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Nice work; I think your change conveys the intended meaning a lot better than it did before. Best, Steve ^T • C 12:35, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Sherman Minton and judicial review

This article by a Supreme Court Correspondent, of The New York Times ""Because We Are Final" Judicial Review Two Hundred Years After Marbury" (PDF). 148 (1). Proceedings of the American Philosophical Society. March, 2004: 38. {{cite journal}}: |first1= missing |last1= (help); Check date values in: |date= (help); Cite journal requires |journal= (help); Missing pipe in: |first1= (help)CS1 maint: numeric names: authors list (link) is a good article on judicial review. And this was before some of the more recent and more colorful handiwork of the court. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 21:43, 18 March 2011 (UTC) |

Find a Grave external link

Sherman Minton at Find a Grave The reason I want this in (and I thought it was in when I self reverted) was that it has the close up of the headstone. I would be the first to agree that other than that, there is no content in Find a Grave (except for the article on the cemetery) that has any import concerning Sherman Minton. There is no rule that bars external links to Find a Grave, especially if they have unique content. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 19:05, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Minton-Capehart Federal Building

Could actually use a wiki link and an article. It has recently been renovated, outdoors upgraded and it is now Energy Star compliant. Lots of stuff in google on this building. The two mentions in the article might be put in one place, rather than two. Just a thought. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 16:27, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

I have some photos of it from a recent expedition to the American Legion headquarters, which is the next block down. I might have already uploaded them on commons, don't recall.. —Charles Edward ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 18:19, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Note regarding a recent edit

Please check the last few edits. In particular, one edit. I was trying to get it to go to a subsection of See Demographics of the Supreme Court of the United States. It doesn't link right. Thanks. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 13:18, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

No need for indicating both the section and subsection. Demographics of the Supreme Court of the United States#Roman Catholic justices will do. bd2412 T 13:49, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Yes. Also note that you missed the "s" off the end of "Roman Catholic justices." I'll leave the "helpme" in case anyone wants to check your other edits. JohnCD (talk) 13:55, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Resignation intent letter

Does Wikisource or the National Archives have a copy of the letter up on the web where Minton informed Eisenhower of his intent to retire? It sounds very interesting and something we should link to if possible. But even if not, I would be interested in reading it without taking a trip down to the nearest law library. NW (Talk) 17:55, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Law school attendance

Sherman Minton attended law school at Indiana University, he graduated in 1915. His alma matter is now known as the "Maurer School of Law." As evidence, his Congressional biography indicates this, and the Maurer School's website indicates this. http://bioguide.congress.gov/scripts/biodisplay.pl?index=m000800; http://law.indiana.edu/students/competitions/mootcourt/minton.shtml

Somebody has been editing Wikipedia to indicate that Sherman Minton attended a different law school, a school now known as the McKinney Law School in Indianapolis. This is incorrect. McKinney itself does not claim Sherman Minton as a graduate. Of note is that while the McKinney school is currently affiliated with Indiana University, this affiliation did not begin until 1944. http://indylaw.indiana.edu/admissions/about.htm.

Whoever is editing Wikipedia with the incorrect information regularly cites, as authority, "Gugin (1997), p. 51." I looked that book up, and checked it out from the library. That page from that book includes the following sentences: "One day when a flash flood swelled the normal trickle of the Jordan River, actually a creek that winds through the Bloomington campus, Minton plunged into the churning water and was swept away. With great effort he managed to pull himself to safety after grabbing hold of a bush." That exact same page also includes a story about him building scaffolding outside of Assembly Hall, which is on the campus at Bloomington, "to see an all-girl show." The scaffolding collapsed, and he was injured. It is absolutely and abundantly clear that Sherman Minton attended law school in Bloomington, at what is now the Maurer School of Law. Musskel (talk) 14:21, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

First off, let me be clear: I am NOT the Wikipedia editor who "has been editing Wikipedia to indicate that Sherman Minton attended a different law school" as mentioned above. I am, however, a Wikipedia editor who has ties both to the Indiana University Robert H. McKinney School of Law and to the Indiana University Maurer School of Law.

The history of Sherman Minton's legal education is not as well-documented as Musskel suggests. True, it has been well-documented that Shermin Minton began his academic career at Indiana University in Bloomington, Indiana. I don't at the moment have references in front of me that discuss this, but it has also been well-documented that Minton fell upon hard economic times when he was a student in Bloomington. And it has been documented that, prior to graduating with a law degree in 1915, Minton moved to Indianapolis, where he obtained a job as a law librarian at the Benjamin Harrison Law School, which is a predecessor of the Indiana University Robert H. McKinney School of Law.

Based on what I have read, the details of how and where Justice Minton completed his law degree remain unclear. It may be that Minton returned to Bloomington to complete his degree after working in Indianapolis. It may be that Minton enrolled in courses, or otherwise studied at, the Benjamin Harrison Law School and in some way relied his studies in Indianapolis to obtain his degree from Indiana University in Bloomington. Or it may be that Minton relied on his prior work at Indiana University in Bloomington to obtain a law degree from the Benjamin Harrison Law School in Indianapolis. So to reiterate, the details of how and where Justice Minton completed his law degree remain unclear.

Musskel cites two sources in support of the proposition that Minton graduated from the IU Maurer School of Law. One of those references is an IU Maurer webpage and the other is a found at the congress.gov website. With regard to the IU Maurer webpage, it is beyond argument that any law school would be pleased to claim a Supreme Court Justice as an alumnus. So the objectivity of that page should be questioned. As for the webpage found at the congress.gov website, I would be curious to learn when that page was created and upon what references it relies.

In view of the above, interested Wikipedia editors, including me, should confirm the details of how and where Justice Minton completed his law degrees. Lexalt (talk) 08:01, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

I vote for Bloomington. It appears that the bulk of Minton's papers (that Mrs. Minton didn't get rid of) are there. Federal Judicial Center. ("Sherman Minton". Retrieved March 3, 2011. It would be strange indeed for that deposit to be made there, unless he had graduated from that school. I recognize that this is not direct evidence, but it is persuasive circumstantial evidence, like footprints in the snow. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 15:27, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Sherman Minton, Supreme Court Historical Society says he graduated from Indiana University in 1915. That would mean Bloomington, wouldn't it? 7&6=thirteen (☎) 15:33, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

The newly renamed law school has a moot court competition named after Minton. Dick, Gerry (10/18/2012). "Law School to be Officially Dedicated". Inside Indiana. Retrieved October 18, 2012. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help) 7&6=thirteen (☎) 16:00, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Actually, no. Re-read your link. It says that the donor's "previous gifts to IU include the Robert H. McKinney Law Professorship and the Bose McKinney & Evans Sherman Minton Moot Court Competition, and contributions to the V. Sue Shields Scholarship, all in the IU Maurer School of Law in Bloomington." Musskel (talk) 00:21, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

For instance, here is the "Robert H. McKinney Law Professor" at the Maurer School of Law: http://info.law.indiana.edu/sb/page/normal/441.html. Musskel (talk) 00:26, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

As I wrote before, the history of Sherman Minton's legal education is not well-documented, and so this isn't really a question that can simply be put to a "vote" to determine the correct answer. Rather, additional primary references should be consulted to confirm/clarify the history. But just to reiterate: No one doubts that Minton studied law in Bloomington. Rather, as I wrote before, although I don't have the reference handy, I recall reading that Minton moved to Indianapolis before 1915, where he worked as a librarian at a law school. So one open question relates to whether, in addition to studying in Bloomington, Minton also studied law in Indianapolis before 1915, which is the date that Minton is said to have earned his degree. And if Minton did study law in Indianapolis before 1915, another question relates to whether Minton truly obtained a degree from Indiana University in Bloomington or whether he actually earned his degree from a law school in Indianapolis. (I suspect that he earned his degree was from Indiana University in 1915, but I recall reading another account that suggests otherwise.) I'll try to look into this at the Indiana Historical Society and elsewhere. I invite others interested in this topic to consult additional primary sources. Lexalt (talk) 21:25, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

I understand that he either graduated from Indian University in Bloomington or he didn't. We have good secondary sources that say he did, and a lot of corroborative circumstantial evidence. Whether you like it or not, these are good WP:RS. The burden of proving to the contrary is on those making the assertion. Consult additional primary sources. But the ball is in your court, and the burden is on those making the claim. Good luck in your quest, Don Quixote. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 21:58, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Why the vitriol? Did you not read that "I suspect that [Minton] earned his degree was from Indiana University in 1915" as I stated in my most recent post? As for your statement that "[t]he burden of proving to the contrary is on those making the assertion," have I suggested otherwise? No, I have not. Or have I edited the article to suggest that Minton did not graduate graduate from Indiana University in Bloomington? No, I have not. Rather, I simply pointed out here, in the "talk" page, that "[t]he history of Sherman Minton's legal education is not as well-documented as Musskel suggests" and offered to look into this topic at the Indiana Historical Society and elsewhere. I also invited "others interested in this topic to consult additional primary sources." Apparently, you have no such interest. So feel free to excuse yourself from further discussion. Lexalt (talk) 23:43, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

For my part, I welcome the examination of primary sources. Something for you to consider, Lexalt, as you bulid your research plan: The connection between "Indiana University" and what is now the "McKinney" School of Law did not begin until 1944. That is, the research should explain why/how Minton claimed to have graduated from the law school at "Indiana University" and not some entirely different law school in Indianapolis that was unaffiliated with Indiana University, and would remain unaffiliated for another 30 years.

Finally, I don't think there was anything in 7&6=thirteen's response that seemed vitriolic, and I do think the burden should be on people trying to reverse what is a common historical understanding. (The two sources you acknowledge, plus the book that was cited as proof that Minton attended law school at Indiana University-Indianapolis, but which very clearly did not state or prove that). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Musskel (talk • contribs) 00:16, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Musskel, thanks for your response, and I appreciate your civility.

I also agree that, in the words of 7&6=thirteen, “[t]he burden of proving to the contrary is on those making the assertion.” So let’s look at what was included as a part of a much earlier version of this article, and then determine whether subsequent edits have met this burden.

On 2 January 2010, Charles Edward, citing Gugin, edited the article to include the following information: “[Minton] then returned to Indiana and enrolled in Indiana University in September 1911… He completed graduate school at the top of his class in 1913 and moved on to Benjamin Harrison School of Law.” See http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Sherman_Minton&oldid=335408132 For clarity, I’ll just note that, through a series of mergers and name changes, the Benjamin Harrison Law School (located in Indianapolis) eventually became known as the Indiana University Robert H. McKinney School of Law (also located in Indianapolis).

To your credit, you mentioned in the first post of this thread that you reviewed page 51 from the cited Gugin reference. And based on your review of that page, you concluded that Sherman Minton did, in fact, attend school in Bloomington. Such a finding is consistent with Charles Edward’s claim that Minton “enrolled in Indiana University.” However, your finding does not refute Charles Edward’s contention that, according to Gugin, Minton “moved on to Benjamin Harrison School of Law” from Indiana University.

Did you, or did you not, review Gugin to determine whether, as Charles Edward contends, the reference teaches that Minton “moved on to Benjamin Harrison School of Law” from Indiana University?

Rather than address whether Gugin teaches that Minton “moved on to Benjamin Harrison School of Law” from Indiana University, you instead elected to replace the Gugin reference with references that better reflect what seems to be your preferred view of history. But please note that, as I mention below in reply to Newyorkbrad, the Congressional Biographical Directory entry, a reference on which you now rely, cites Gugin. If Gugin conflicts with Minton’s entry in the Congressional Biographical Directory, don’t you see a dilemma?

Now, having said all the above, let me once again state that I suspect that Minton actually did earn his LL.B. from Bloomington. I don’t have a dog in this fight, so I’m not going devote much more time or effort to this issue. But given that you went to all the trouble to locate the Gugin reference, this issue seems to be somewhat important to you. And I guess that it is important to the person who "has been editing Wikipedia to indicate that Sherman Minton attended a different law school." So why don’t you at least do a little more research to confirm or refute whether, as Charles Edward contends, the Gugin reference teaches that Minton “moved on to Benjamin Harrison School of Law” from Indiana University? Lexalt (talk) 20:30, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

As noted at the top of the thread, the Congressional Biographical Directory's entry on Minton reports that Minton "graduated from the law department of Indiana University at Bloomington in 1915, and from Yale University in 1916." The Guide has been published for decades, and this entry is probably based on information that Minton's office would have provided while he was in the Senate, although someone can look up the contemporaneous hard-copy version to try to be sure.

In addition, note that the law school explicitly claims him as an alumnus, here.Newyorkbrad (talk) 00:34, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

With regard to the cited Maurer webpage, note that it claims that Minton “earned his J.D. from our Law School in 1915.” However, Indiana University didn’t even offer a J.D. degree in 1915, but instead offered an LL.B. degree in that year. So the cited reference doesn't seem to be well-researched.

With regard to the Congressional Biographical Directory's entry for Minton, that reference includes a “Bibliography” that cites many recent references, including the above mentioned Gugin reference that was published in 1997. So no, I rather doubt that the cited version of the Congressional Biographical Directory's is identical to whatever Minton's office provided while he was in the Senate..

With regard to the accuracy of other recent references, consider the following: According to the The Oxford Guide to the United States Government at page 413, Minton received his LL.B. from Indiana University in 1925, not 1915 as currently listed in the Wikipedia article. See http://books.google.com/books?id=9nYh3RocaG8C&pg=PA413&lpg=PA413&dq=sherman+minton+indiana+university+oxford+guide&source=bl&ots=h9MI16qK_R&sig=5BvU7SZ4-Z97yh282lkv80LrWa4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=f1yDUJW1DqTnyAGZk4CABg&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=sherman%20minton%20indiana%20university%20oxford%20guide&f=false Am I suggesting that the Oxford Guide is correct? No, I’m merely demonstrating the inconsistent information abounds on this topic. Lexalt (talk) 20:30, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

No vitriol or opprobrium was intended. If you construed it that way, I am sorry for my part in any misunderstanding. Nevertheless, Congress and the court historians all thought he graduated from Bloomington. This is consistent with his biography. He or his estate placed most of his papers there. If you can find proof to the contrary so be it. But you need real proof to the contrary, not mere Ipse dixit or assertion. It seems obvious that if you want to change the status quo you need persuasive evidence. Correction of the historical record is a good thing; but even your use of erstwhile primary sources (if they exist) will have to go beyond WP:OR and WP:Synth, and would need WP:RS. To be sure, one can argue about the pedigree of the two campuses of the Indiana University School of Law. But even assuming they are now 'under the same umbrella' (they now share the "Indiana University School of Law" name, but they have separate campus/school names, locations and administration), anachronistic historical revisionism cannot transmute 1915 attendance on one campus into constructive attendance at a school that was not affiliated until much later. In fact, this discussion is at this point hypothetical and moot. Until the sources are produced, this is just navel gazing. Good luck in your endeavor. I would use the word "quest" but you might misconstrue that. Parenthetically, this will acknowledge that the moot court competition named for Minton is at the Indianapolis campus, not in Bloomington. If the campuses are to be treated as two arms on the same body, perhaps we should merge all of the Indiana University School of Law articles into one article. That may not conform to the legalities of the relationships and would paper over broad gaps, but it would unify them for Wikipedia purposes. If and when that happens (this is hypothetical), then we could modify the links and clarify the history (but not historical revisionism, please). 7&6=thirteen (☎) 00:31, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

I think you were speaking sarcastically, but I want to reiterate that the moot court competition at Indianapolis is NOT named after Minton. Instead, it is named after "Robert H. Straton." http://indylaw.indiana.edu/mootcourt/. Instead, it is the moot court competition in Bloomington that is named after Minton, as previous links have made clear, and as indicated in the "Inside Indiana" article linked above indicates. (Note that the original poster of the news article summarized its content in a way that was either ambiguous, as both schools are newly renamed, or incorrect). Thank you for your attention to this issue. Musskel (talk) 15:44, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

This had already been cited, but here is a more complete citation where the Indiana University School of Law/Maurer School of Law expressly states that Minton graduated from the school in 1915. "Sherman Minton Moot Court Competition" Who Was Sherman Minton?". Bloomington, Indiana: Maurer School of Law. 2012. Retrieved October 20, 2012. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 12:21, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

No sarcasm intended. Thanks for clarifying that.

We have lots of cites that directly clarify where and when Minton graduated. That the cooperating schools have eponymous moot court competitions is really beside the point.

Nor was I being sarcastic about treating the two law schools as one. They could share an article. The problem, of course, is that they have one 'brand name', but are administratively and fiscally separate. This is a bureaucratic 'camel' to say the least. One wonders if this would have happened this way in the private sector (although it did when Daimler bought Chrysler). In any event, I don't think that these amalgamated (if not fully merged) schools are going to change their path for Wikipedia. And we should work with what is a fact. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 18:42, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

7&6=thirteen, I’ve added a few comments above. Feel free jump in. And good to know that you didn’t intend to direct any vitriol toward me or sarcasm toward others.

With regard to your observations that the two schools are two arms on the same body and share one brand name, I’m afraid that neither observation is correct. Although the two schools both remain part of the same IU system, they are currently independent of one another, much like the UC Berkeley School of Law and the UC Davis School of Law are independent of one another. And also much like much like the UC Berkeley School of Law and the UC Davis School of Law, the two IU law schools market themselves under distinct brand names, namely McKinney and Maurer. So my feeling is that merging the articles would add to, not reduce, confusion. But for what it’s worth, a disambiguation page exists for Indiana University School of Law. And where I have been able to do so, I’ve done my best to assign alumni to the correct school. But in the case of Minton, because of the conflicting information, I’ve remained on the sidelines until now. Lexalt (talk) 20:30, 21 October 2012 (UTC)