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October 11

Nothing is impossible OR impossible is nothing

What's the difference stylistically and grammatically between both sentences? OsmanRF34 (talk) 14:15, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

The first statement is another way of saying 'everything is possible'. It's grammatically fine to express the thought in either way, although saying 'nothing is impossible' is a good way to reply to someone telling you something can't be done.

The second statement is, on the face of it, grammatically incorrect. The word order is wrong - it sounds like something Yoda would say. However, spoken with a certain emphasis: "impossible is nothing!", it can mean something like 'I am prepared/able to do absolutely anything, including things others consider impossible, and to go even further than that'. It would be fine in advertising copy or political speech writing, but probably wouldn't work well in a formal report, for example. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 14:59, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

The second one seems to be invoking the Use-mention distinction: "'Impossible' is nothing!" = "Claims of impossibility are as nothing to me!"AlexTiefling (talk) 15:03, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

Nothing is the subject and is impossible is a predicative expression that describes it. The latter comprises a linking verb orcopula, and a predicative adjective. English relies mainly on word order to identify the subject and object of a sentence, whereas some other languages actually mark them by changing them. See Subject-verb-object. It's possible to read the second sentence in the way Mike and Alex have suggested, in which case impossible is the subject and nothing is a predicative nominal. In theory, inversion could also allow nothing to remain the subject - for example, compare with Tender Is The Night. But it sounds odd and mannered, and isn't the first assumption a native speaker would make on reading the phrase. - Karenjc 15:48, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

Just to correct something that Cucumber Mike said, "Nothing is impossible" is not necessarily the exact same meaning as "everything is possible". The concept of Litotes shows how double negation isn't always equivalent to no negation at all. It may be the sense the speaker is trying to convey, but it doesn't have to be. If I say "She's not ugly", I could mean either "She's plain looking, but not offensive" or I could mean "She's smokin' hot". The second usage would be the use of litotes, but it isn't always clear without some context, such as the body language or intonation of the speaker, or the nature of the conversation to know what the exact meaning of a phrase like that is. For example, if two friends are discussing a third friend, and the one said "She's hideous!" and the second said "Well, she's not ugly!", that's the first usage. If the two friends conversation went this way Friend 1: "Damn she's fine looking". Friend 2: "Well, she's not ugly!", that's the second. It only takes a subtle change of context to completely change the meaning of a phrase. For a humorous example, seethis video, fast forward to 2:00. --Jayron32 16:17, 11 October 2012 (UTC)ʙ̩

No, you're right. I expressed myself badly. I meant to get over the point that, if your friend tells you he wants to have his 21st birthday party on the Moon, you can say 'Hey, everything's possible' or 'Hey, nothing's impossible' and be fine, grammatically speaking, either way. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 16:25, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

Grammatically yes. Semantically, not at all. --Jayron32 16:45, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

In the meantime I found a WK link to Impossible Is Nothing (video résumé) confirming that it sounds mannered, but the author appears to be a native speaker. I am aware that the second sentence is much less uncommon, but does that make it ungrammatical? I thought that it was a way to putting stress on 'nothing' instead of on 'impossible.' The phrase was also used by Adidas, probably taking some liberty to break the grammar for marketing purposes. OsmanRF34 (talk) 16:00, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) First, the two statements in no way mean the same thing. They are not simply restatements of each other. The second statement undoubtedly does not follow normal, standard rules of English grammar. However, there are times when it can be useful to break the rules in order to emphasise a point - something like when Shakespeare has Julius Caesar say "This was the most unkindest cut of all." I'm sure there's a word for this practice, but I can't think of it right now. Someone will be along shortly to rescue me. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 16:09, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

Consider this paraphrase of Alice in Wonderland:

"Alice laughed: "There's no use trying," she said; "one can't believe impossible things."

"Impossible?" scoffed the Queen. "Impossible is nothing." "When I was younger, I would practice for half an hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast."

μηδείς (talk) 17:18, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

Help fixing an apparent translation from Italian

The article Aliprandi looks like it's been badly translated, either in part or in full, from the Italian version of the article, it:Aliprandi. Could someone with appropriate skills possibly fix up or delete the sentences that don't make much sense in the English version?--Dweller (talk) 16:00, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

Russian help

What are the Russian words in File:Brightonbeachbrooklyn.JPG? Some of one is obscured by a pillar. Can you figure out the full word? Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 16:33, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

My knowlegde of Cyrillic letters is limited (and my knowledge of Russian practically non-existent), but the obscured words read Чёрное море, meaning "Black Sea". The first word is "Magasin" meaning "shop", so I'd bet the whole thing reads "Black Sea bookstore", just as the shop's English name--Ferkelparade π 16:46, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes, exactly, except that that's a z in магазин "magazin". μηδείς (talk) 17:11, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

The other word is knigi, "books". 109.99.71.97 (talk) 18:51, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

МАГАЗИН КНИГИ ЧЕРНОЕ МОРЕ. The diaeresis of the letter Ё is not actually obligatory in Russian spelling; see halfway down the #Russian section of Yo (Cyrillic). --Theurgist (talk) 19:06, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

Thank you! Anyway, what is the Russian at File:Storefront of NY Central Pharmacy.jpg? Also, would anyone mind adding a Russian language description to File:Brightonbeachbrooklyn.JPG? Found a description on the Russian Wikipedia. Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 22:11, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

That's центральная аптека, tsentral'naja apteka, "central apothecary" (i.e. drugstore). μηδείς (talk) 22:19, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

Thank you! It would be nice to have a Russian description for File:Storefront of NY Central Pharmacy.jpg as wellWhisperToMe (talk) 00:24, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

I don't speak standard Russian, so am afraid to compose it myself, others here are competent to do so. μηδείς (talk) 01:06, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

Just added a Russian description. Lesgles (talk) 01:56, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

Chinese sources -> English

I'm working on the State Grid Corporation of China, one of the biggest companies in the world according to Wikipedia[1], but as a Chinese-only company, most of their sources are in Chinese.

I have done the best I can to improve the article with the English sources I can find. Does anyone have some guidance on how to (a) see if there is a better version in the Chinese Wikipedia that can be translated or (b) a good way to to get a translation of the sources? Corporate 19:10, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

Visit the article at zh:国家电网 and then find a user who speaks good English (EN-3 to 5 or N) on ZH Wikipedia, and see if they can helpWhisperToMe (talk) 22:14, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

Do a google translate, pick out the paragraphs that look interesting, and post them here, plenty of native speakers of Chinese are active here.--PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 09:47, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

"Nicholas" with an "M"

Can anyone explain how in a group of central and eastern European languages, the variant of the name Nicholas begins with an M? It seems to be inPolish, Czech, Slovak, Hungarian (but not any related language),Lithuanian (but not Latvian), Belarusian and Ukrainian (but not Russian). Clearly an areal feature (possibly corresponding with the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth), but how and why did it occur?93.96.208.82 (talk) 19:14, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

The name is also used in Ruthenian and, according to Babynames.com, in Finnish. A search at Google Scholar doesn't return anything useful. My suspicion is it is due to interference from the name Mikhail. μηδείς (talk) 19:37, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

See, and I was thinking that there was some sort of transition, akin to Grimm's law in western Languages, that perhaps those languages have some sort of N-->M shift present in many words. I don't speak any of them, but are there other analogues where N words in Western European languages are M words in the cognate in Eastern European languages? Maybe in all positions, maybe only in initial positions, maybe when followed by a vowel? I only ask because my 3-year old son (an obvious native English speaker, but a very young one) confuses and swaps "N" and "M" sometimes (my favorite is that he says "Lenomade" for Lemonade and "Walnart" for "Walmart". Otherwise, he's quite eloquent). So, does anyone who speaks those languages know? --Jayron32 20:13, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

Lemonade > lenomade is metathesis, Walmart > Walnart is phonetic assimilation. Both phenomena can occur regularly accross the sounds of a language, or just in individual words. My little sister used to call medicine "bedimus", which exhibits a complex case of both changes. Theunconditioned sound change of initial /n/ to /m/ is unheard of as far as I know. Final /m/ to /n/ is common. Final /n/ to /m/ is quite rare, and in Portuguese is a result of the neutralization and reanalysis of final nasal consonants. μηδείς (talk) 22:16, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

But the fact that it's languages within a certain area (irrespective of the familial relations of the languages: we have all the West Slavic languages, some East Slavic ones, one Baltic and one isolated Uralic) suggests that there is some kind of specific influence in that area that seems to have spread. Perhaps for instance, there was some (say) Polish leader whose name became spelt like this, and then it spread to the various areas he was leader of? 93.96.208.82 (talk) 21:52, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

No, it is definitely not a regular sound change in this case, which points strongly to interference. (Unfortunately our link linguistic interference doesn't help here.) Compare the word citizen which comes from the same source that gave the expected modern French citoyen, but shows interference from denizen: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=citizen The areal surmise is likely right in tracing it to thePolish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, just can't confirm that without a source, and my net searches have been unhelpful. μηδείς (talk) 22:02, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

Medeis's hypothesis is correct, according to Vasmer: "Народн. Мику́ла получило м- от Михаи́л, как и польск. Мikоłаj. Объяснение м- из нов.-греч. невозможно, вопреки Соболевскому." "Popular Mikula [m forms are also found in folk Russian] gained an m- from Mikhail, as did the Polish Мikоłаj. The explanation of m- from modern Greek is impossible, despite what Sobolevsky says." [2]Lesgles (talk) 02:10, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

If it is found in Russian it is likely traceable to northern (i.e., Western and Eastern) Slavic which is a dialect continuum, or even earlier. It's curious whether it's attested in Bulgarian or Slovenian, which are the outliers of Southern Slavic. μηδείς (talk) 02:47, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

Extended discourse not relevant to the central question.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Not sure what you mean by "It's curious whether ...". -- Jack of Oz [Talk] 03:52, 12 October 2012 (UTC) It's suspicious you can't guess. μηδείς (talk) 04:03, 12 October 2012 (UTC) Must you, Medeis? Can you not simply answer a simple question? It's not my fault if you can't write comprehensible English. You seem to have confused possibly 3 idioms: (a) "It's curious that ...". This takes something that is at least asserted as true, and wonders something about it, which could extend to its very truth value. (b) "I'm curious about ...". This is a non-specific expression of curiosity about something. (c) "I don't know whether ...". This is simply wondering whether something is true or not. I have no idea whether you're saying: this N-M phenomenon is attested in Bulgarian and Slovenian, and you find that a curious state of affairs; or you don't know whether it's attested in those languages or not, but you're interested in finding out; or something else. -- Jack of Oz [Talk] 04:42, 12 October 2012 (UTC) The use of It's curious whether in my first statement and the use of It's suspicious (that) in my second statement was intentionally functionally analogous and meant as a rather broad hint as to how I was using the phrase in the first case. (And it is curious that you would think, even though I used the term "whether", that I was suggesting it might be a fact that Mikolai is attested in Slovenian and Bulgarian.) Hopefully, you will find this helpful.μηδείς (talk) 05:03, 12 October 2012 (UTC) Your erudition may be your undoing. I have not had the formal training in linguistics that you seem to have; all I know is when something makes sense and when it doesn't. Do not necessarily expect me to pick up on the subtle clues that someone with your level of education could be expected to. I can stretch my brain to handle many cases of sub-optimal expression, but sometimes that would require me to make unwarranted assumptions. I've been hanging around here long enough to know not to do that. (The only possibly unwarranted assumption I ever make is that good faith is being exercised.) As you were using a combination of words ("It's curious whether") that has no known precedent, I couldn't possibly know that "whether" was meant to bear the main meaning, as opposed to "It's curious". That is why I asked a simple 9-word question. A simple 9-word answer would have been really good. Thanks for the explanation you did provide.. -- Jack of Oz [Talk] 05:30, 12 October 2012 (UTC) There is an aphorism I often use in cases like what Jack is describing above. "I don't need to be a chef to know what my food tastes like". It is quite a suitable sentiment for what just went down here, I think. --Jayron32 16:23, 12 October 2012 (UTC) "No known precedent"? Here are six dozen or so usages of "is curious whether" ("it is curious whether the Court analyzed in detail all situations where PLF's liability would cover medical expenses in a malpractice situation ..." "It is curious whether internet marketing companies will be able to stay on their toes and take advantage of trending news about the products or ..." "As such, it is curious whether or not the latest model of saber, the M1860, developed just last year, will even come into service." "As they worked in the same area, it is curious whether the three African American statisticians Charles Bell, Albert Turner Bharucha-Reid, and David Blackwell ..." "It is curious whether Chelsea Clinton signed a Pre-Nuptial Agreement prior to her marriage.") mostly in formal edited writing, and including a Yale linguistics paper: "Hirayama (1964) records the above –ha ne-‐nu as the negative, so it is curious whether the negative form has changed or whether these are instances of ...". Here are a few thousand uses with "it's curious whether". No specific linguistic training is needed here, no more than is needed to understand what someone means when he starts a sentence with "hopefully". It's truly curious whether anyone else is confused by this impersonal phrasing. μηδείς (talk) 16:37, 13 October 2012 (UTC) Thanks for that. The things you learn here. All I can say is that I have never in my life heard it until now; I would never choose to say or write it; and I would suggest others also refrain from it, because, as I said above, it is inherently confusing and ambiguous, seeming to conflate different and contradictory idioms and not clearly meaning any one of them (because it couldn't possibly cover all these bases). "It is curious" normally precedes something that is curiosity-worthy but not in doubt. My first hit when I google "It is curious" is a classic example: "It is curious that physical courage should be so common in the world and moral courage so rare". My understanding of your examples is of things that are in doubt. And that's what troubles me with all of them. The sentences start out leading the reader down the track of certainty ("It is curious"), but then, "whether" immediately diverts them onto the track of uncertainty. Which bit of the sentence are they supposed to believe? They end up in no-reader's-land. They have to choose. Different readers will choose different meanings. If my life depended on it, I'd probably be guided by the presence of "whether", and believe that "It is curious whether Chelsea Clinton signed a Pre-Nuptial Agreement" means "We don't know whether or not Chelsea Clinton signed a Pre-Nuptial Agreement, but we're curious". But if you're telling me that it actually means "It is curious that Chelsea Clinton signed a Pre-Nuptial Agreement", and that there is no doubt being expressed, I'd have to ask you how you can be so sure of your interpretation. I'm not saying mine is necessarily any more valid, btw. Either way, it's a Fail with a Capital F for Good Writing. The fact that we can find many examples of its use means nothing more than we can find many examples of any badly composed sentence we care to think of. -- Jack of Oz [Talk] 19:44, 13 October 2012 (UTC) Two things. The "whether" makes it a question, so there's no overlap between "It is curious whether" expressing curiosity about whether something is the case, and "it is curious that", expressing that there is a fact which is odd. The other is that "it is curious" is being used here impersonally. There is no "it" which is curious. Similar to the impersonal use of "hopefully" as in "Hopefully the Yankees will win." One is not saying that when the Yankees win the will be hopeful as they do it. What is being expressed is, "One hopes the Yankees will win" or "It is a matter of curiosity whether the form exists in Slovenian and Bulgarian." Of course one suspects all this drama from the beginning has been in order to allow you a venue to say such things as "Fail with a Capital F for Good Writing". Instead of implications of bad faith that make it hard for me to take you seriously, you couldd simply have google the phrase and found tens of thousands of instances of its use. I am quite certain you understood what was meant from the beginning, and that no one else has shared your reported confusion. I have no intention of reading or responding further on this silliness, so I do hope someone will hat the conversation of what I mean by "it is curious whether" to here and put it out of its misery.μηδείς (talk) 20:00, 13 October 2012 (UTC) We were having a civil conversation until now, one that was about meaning and interpretation. It was not about you and me personally. It's sad that you've injected incivility, and that you've made it personal, and that you've accused me of bad faith, and that you've abandoned the conversation after your final spray so that you're safe from whatever I may have to say in response to your incredible and unforgiveable, but sadly all too predictable, rudeness. No matter, it will be here in perpetuity for you to read in your spare time. I asked a simple agenda-free 9-word question (Not sure what you mean by "It's curious whether ..."), and all I wanted was a simple agenda-free short answer in return, not all this palaver. That was in your power to provide. You chose not to provide it. That is and remains your responsibility. You really need to examine your problem with anyone ever asking you to explain anything you say. If you're so insecure that you can't just answer them without suspecting their motives, I feel very sorry for you. I hope you can find peace. -- Jack of Oz [Talk] 21:11, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Aaand to bring the debate back - in Slovenian the name is not among the most popular ones, but it does have both variants. There's Nikolaj and Miklavž. Although that second one is limited almost entirely to the name of the Slovenian folk version of the Christmas gift bringer. Not saying this second version is non-existent as a personal name, but it is fairly rare.192.51.44.16 (talk) 09:09, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Meanwhile, I know someone named Nichael (with an English surname). Our acquaintance isn't close enough that I've dared ask how that happened.—Tamfang (talk) 07:18, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

There is always Nichelle Nichols

Horse/Hors/Pferd/Equus

dictionary.com says that the word "Horse" is cognate with the Old Norse "Hross", and cognate with the German "Ross". But the German word for Horse is "Pferd". Where did "Pferd" come from? It certainly doesn't appear to be related to "Hross" or the Latin "Equus". 69.62.243.48 (talk) 23:46, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

Wiktionary says it derives from the Latin paraveredus, meaning "An extra horse; post horse or courier's horse for outlying or out of the way places". Presumably the Romans considered Germany an out of the way place. Looie496 (talk) 23:56, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

English palfrey is from the same root, via Anglo-Norman. Lesgles (talk) 02:16, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

According to Mallory and Adams, horse itself is apparently cognate with hurry, course, car, and Epicurus, all from PIE *kers.μηδείς (talk) 02:36, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

And then there's French cheval and Spanish caballo, which I believe come from late Latin caballus, meaning "nag" - from which we ultimately get "chivalry". --Nicknack009 (talk) 09:13, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

In German, "das Ross" does mean "the steed" and I have seen it used, although it is true "das Pferd" was much more common in my personal everyday experience. Falconus^{p t c} 15:46, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

October 12

Which one is the headquarters of Air China (Chinese help)?

Which building is the Air China administrative headquarters? I seem to be getting some contradictory stuff

• 国航信息大厦 at 16 Tianzhu Road File:AirChinaHQ1.JPG - says it's 16 Tianzhu
• http://www.airchina.com.cn/www/en/html/index/ir/financial_informatio/3039/D13A3036915754AEEE740D6A60912C03.pdf - http://www.webcitation.org/6BM0HGZNysays that the "registered office" is the Blue Sky Mansion
• "Air China HQ Building" at 30 Tianzhu Road File:AirChinaBuildingShunyi1.JPG from http://www.pata.org/Members/6131/ andhttp://www.cibtm.com/en/Exhibitors/111706/Air-China and http://www.iata.org/membership/pages/airline_members_list.aspx

It's possible the company may have one building as its "registered office" and another as its administrative headquarters

I put this in the language section because Chinese speakers may be needed to pore over documents which explain things Thanks, WhisperToMe (talk) 08:05, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

• After looking through some documents, I think I've figured it out: Blue Sky is the registered office and the 30 Tianzhu building is the Administrative HQ WhisperToMe (talk) 10:39, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

-tr

Is there a word for words ending in "-tr" (e.g. Polish teatr), "-tl" (Icelandic "jökull") and other "unpronounceable" combinations? In what languages do such exist? bamse (talk) 11:43, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

The combinations may be unpronounceable by you, but that doesn't mean they are unpronounceable by speakers of these languages. Phonotactics is the study of how phonemes may be combined, such as the consonant clusters in the examples you mention. Gabbe (talk) 12:45, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

Indeed. I don't know Polish that well, but is the end of "teatr" any different than the french word "quatre" (four), in terms of how the final consonant cluster is sounded? Each language has a set of sounds that are used by that language, which is only a small subset of the possible sounds availible for all languages. Without practice, some sounds are difficult for non-native speakers. It doesn't make them unprouncable, it just means the non-native speaker isn't as practiced in making them as native speakers. --Jayron32 12:49, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

It's pronounced VERY different from the French. The Polish "r" is flapped or trilled. And the word is pronounced exactly like it is spelled. Approximately like "TEH-aht-rrrrrrrr". Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 21:51, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

In this case I think it may just be a matter of spelling. The fact that English spells the word "theater" doesn't mean that English speakers always pronounce a distinct "e" sound in the last syllable. In general spelling only correlates approximately to pronunciation, whatever language you look at. Looie496 (talk) 16:05, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

But lots and lots of words in Nahuatl end in "tl"; besides the language's own name, examples you may recognize includechocolatl, coyotl and of course the useful military implement, the atlatl. --Orange Mike | Talk 16:12, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

There's a distinct difference in pronunciation in the final consonant sounds of the French word "quatre" and the English word "theatre". Indeed, one thing that makes native French speakers apoplectic is the way in which native English speakers butcher their language by substituting native English sounds for native French ones based purely on spelling (vowels are particularly problematic in this regard). I have a decent knowledge of French as a second language, however I am not comfortable speaking it often in front of native French speakers because I don't want to be disrespectful of their language by butchering it. --Jayron32 16:20, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

The French getting upset at others butchering their language. Ah could nev-AIR ev-AIR believe zat.  :) -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 22:07, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

There's a general problem in confusing pronunciation and spelling. The final r, l, m, and n in English words like butter, bottle, bottom, and button are actually 'stand-alone' syllabic consonants. There's no actual vowel sound between them and the t's that precede them. We usually write them with a schwa, because we expect every syllable to have a vowel, but this is more a matter of convention and expectation than fact. We could just as rationally write those words as butr, botl, botm, and butn, and as we do write rhythm. Indeed there are many languages that do just that. The Czech tongue-twister Strč prst skrz krk "Stick your finger through your throat", ignoring other minor differences, would be written "Sturch pursed scurrs Kirk" if it were an English phrase. See Vowel#Words_without_vowels and English words without vowels.

Yet, in the case of Nahuatl and French words ending in -tre (if the r is pronounced at all) those consonants are fricatives likes and 'sh'. The tl sound in Nahuatl is somewhat like a lisped English ch. The ɫ is a voicelss fricative like the double ll of WelshLloyd, pronounced with the tongue in the position for /l/, but with air hissing out around both sides of the tongue, rather than the throat humming in the way we pronounce the /l/ in lick. (You can approximate the sound of this phoneme by trying clearly to enunciate "hlick".) As for the French -tre, the r may be silent, but if it is pronounced, it will usually be a fricative made in the back of the throat, sounding vaguely Arabic. See French phonology.

Topics like these are complicated, and surprisingly scientific. I would suggestA Mouthful of Air as a great introduction, and then an old edition (it's a textbook, and new editions are expensive, but no better) of Fromkin & Rodman's Introduction to Language.μηδείς (talk) 17:14, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

(ec)The OP used scare quotes around "unpronounceable", indicating that he already realized that these words are not really unpronounceable, just seemingly so. To paraphrase and update his question, what languages have final consonant clusters other than "-tl" and "-tr" that are seemingly unpronounceable to speakers of English, and is there a term for words ending in such? Duoduoduo (talk) 17:23, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

Don't know much about Russian, but can their "shch" sound be word-final? Duoduoduo (talk) 17:25, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes, борщ, "borscht" is one such word. The ad hoc phrase 'cluster-final word' would seem to cover the necessary meaning. I can't see the concept being needed so much that it would necessarily have its own word. μηδείς (talk) 18:21, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

The "borscht" spelling is really misleading and I don't know how it ever gained prominence. The final consonant is -shch, just like the-shch- of "ashchurch". It could be romanised in German as -"schtsch", and that's how a t could creep into the middle. But to end it with a -t is not right, in any language. Of course, many people probably do now pronounce it as "borsht", but only because it was mis-romanised in the first place. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 21:04, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

You think that's bad, explain me why the French spell the very easy word "bishop" évêque? μηδείς (talk) 21:55, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

Correct me if I'm wrong (as happens rather more often than I'd like to admit) in this case, the little hat the second <e> wears indicates an <s> used to be there (unlike English where when the sounds disappear, the bloody letters remain). Looks to me like it would be from epísk(opos) with the p -> b -> v or p -> f -> v in some process the people who really do know about this will probably be able to name? --Shirt58 (talk) 06:15, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Well, now you have "ruined" my joke by explaining it. Yes, your explanation is spot on. The pair is often used as an example of how words from cognate sources can evolve to be very different, since these don't share a single sound or letter. Oh, and p>b>v is the proper sequence, likesapere to savoir, with Spanish saber showing the middle state. μηδείς (talk) 15:39, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

In Bulgarian, the letter щ is regularly /ʃt/. I don't know whether there are Russian dialects in which that is the case, but it wouldn't surprise me. When I studied Russian at school forty years ago, we were taught that щ was a palatalised /ʃ/, and only pronounced /ʃt͡ʃ/ in very careful speech: I have since read that this is a Muscovite localism. --ColinFine (talk) 23:50, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

bamse: Regarding your two particular examples, see Sonority Sequencing Principle and Sonority hierarchy. It is generally normal that asonorant like /r/ or /l/ should stay closer to the syllable nucleus than a stop like /t/ should, but as they said, each language has its own patterns and limitations of combining sounds. The initial /kn/ cluster has now been impossible in English for centuries, but is still very much possible in most other Germanic languages. There are pockets of languages worldwide where any initial consonant clusters are forbidden and "unpronounceable", and that's why, for example, you can sometimes hear someone in Turkey referring to Bill Clinton andBrad Pitt roughly as "Bill Kill-lin-tawn" and "Beer-rat Pitt". An initial /ŋ/ (ng) might be giving Westerners hard times mastering it, but is a perfectly regular thing in many languages of Africa, Asia and the Pacific Islands. Examples are as many as you'd like. --Theurgist(talk) 22:21, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

I don't know about Canadian French, which might be the variety that Jayron and Medeis know best, but in France the r of quatre and the l of table are frequently omitted. It is regarded as a marker of working class speech - normally - but not, I think, if the speaker is a learner of French with a cool/cute/quaint English/American accent. Jayron, I'm sure there's no call to be self-conscious; it's a courtesy to make the effort to speak your listener's language. Itsmejudith (talk) 00:03, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

My French is school-learned and conservative, meant to be broad enough to be clearly understood throughout francophonia. I did explicitly qualify above: if the r is pronounced at all. When it is, /fǝnɛːtʁ/ and even /katχ/ for quatre are possible, with ʁ and χ being fricatives. μηδείς (talk) 04:12, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes, you did say that. Relevant to the discussion on consonant clusters is that the r isn't dropped if a vowel follows. Quat' personnes but quatre enfants. (Quatres enfants is regarded as uneducated.) In accents of southern France and in West Africa r's are rolled. Itsmejudith(talk) 07:40, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

We were instructed that in graded recitations, American r's would be marked wrong, but trilled r's would be acceptable for those who couldn't do the gutteral r. (Not that I remember anyone finding that any easier.) We were told to expect the trilled r in poetry and song (along with silent e's being pronounced) and given Edith Piaf to listen to for an example. I never did go to France though, touring the German Alps instead when I had the chance. I have probably spoken 10 hours of French over the last 10 years, and all with Africans and Haitians. μηδείς(talk) 15:53, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

There's a commercial in France at the moment (or, at least, over the past couple of months) where a kid is cooking for his parents and calls them to dinner, "à tab'!" When they don't come (they're looking at cars or something) he enunciates it more fully, "à table", pronouncing the normally silent -e. For words like "quatre" it's definitely convenient for non-native speakers like me that you don't have to pronounce the -re. Otherwise when the "r" is an important part of the word, sometimes French people had no idea what I was saying (I could never pronounce the name of my bank counsellor, for example). Adam Bishop (talk) 12:29, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

October 13

African languages

Map showing the six language families represented in Africa

Why are (Sub-Saharan) African languages so much more phonologically complex than other languages? (tones, clicks, large phonemic inventories, etc.)--168.7.234.32 (talk) 01:13, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Actually, that generalized statement is wrong. You're probably thinking of Khoisan, which is just a small group. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 02:06, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Some links: Khoisan languages, which is quite small, population-wise, compared to the Niger–Congo languages that dominate sub-Saharan Africa.Pfly (talk) 03:28, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Southern Africa is home to the Bantu languages and the Khoisan languages. The former are not terribly phonetically complex. They include the Zulu language and the Swahili language among several hundred others. They are a sub-branch of the Niger-Congo language family. Most Bantu languages are tonal but not with very complex systems. Zulu has two tones, Swahili as adopted as a lingua franca has lost its tones. The Khoisan languages are noted for their clicks. Their non-click consonant systems are not very complex. If combinations of sounds with clicks are interpreted as single entities, and not clusters, they can have among the highest consonant inventories. Zulu has just over 30 non-click and three click consonants. If combinations aren't seen as clusters, it has about 48 consonants, a rather large inventory, with its five vowels and two tones on top.

The Nguni language subfamily of Bantu, which includes Zulu and the Xhosa language, the native language of Nelson Mandela, has inherited clicks from a Khoisan substrate language. These languages are very similar, but Zulu speakers may not understand Xhosa utterances with their even more complicated click inventory.

To the northwest of Bantu lie the remaining several hundred Niger-Congo languages (of which Bantu is a subgroup of a subgroup of a subgroup). Many of these languages are similar to Bantu in sharing noun prefix-classes, although this has largely disappeared in some, like the Yoruba language. These diverse languages tend to be tonal and of CV type with moderate consonant systems and simple vowel systems, often with nasalization.

The Hausa language, spoken in Nigeria, is a member of the Chadic languages subgroup of the Afroasiatic languages, distantly related to Semitic, Berber and Egyptian. It has a moderately complex consonant system and five vowels with length and tone, totally about the same number of phonemes (40) as English.

To the northeast of the Bantu languages lie the very old and diverse Nilo-Saharan languages, which includes the Maasai language, the Dinka language and the Nubian languages among several dozen others. Their consonant systems don't make them stand out from the Niger-Congo languages. (In fact, there is very controversial evidence that Niger-Congo may itself be a small sub-branch of Nilo-Saharan. But you can't determine that just by saying the consonant systems are similar.)

Unfortunately I am not aware of any good surveys of African languages in general. Lyovin'sAn Introduction to the Languages of the World is cheap, excellent for the educated layman, and widely available. It doesn't concentrate on Africa, though. μηδείς (talk) 03:32, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Are there theories as to why some languages (and language families) have more or less phonemes than others? My intuition says it is just "historical chance", but maybe there are other ideas? Anyway, that seems to be the basic question here (and in the next topic), why more in some and less in others? Pfly (talk) 03:43, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

There's no natural selection in language evolution (although there may be sexual selection for complexity) so it is basically random. Sounds are lost that are difficult to pronounce (knight). New sounds are borrowed into a language (clicks in Nguni) or caused to become phonemically distinct by outside influences (z, ʒ, and oɪ in English from French). Sounds merge (marry Mary merry) and sounds split (halve have, trap bath). See the remarks in the thread below as well. μηδείς (talk) 03:55, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Pacific Island languages

Why do Pacific Island languages (e.g. Hawaiian, Rapa Nui) have such simple phonology? --168.7.236.74 (talk) 02:41, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Because Proto-Polynesian *did. Why *did Proto-Polynesian such simple phonology? Er, I dunno. But that map is probably going to come up later in discussion. --Shirt58 (talk) 03:19, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

There seems to be a possible vague correlation between language spread and language simplification. See Johanna Nichols fascianting but highly speculative (to the point of numerology, sometimes) Linguistic Diversity in Space and Time. The Georgian language and the North Caucasian languages have been in one place a long time. People take pride in the dialect of their village. When languages tend to simplify their sounds over time, they usually compound their words. "I need a /seɪl/." "What a boat-sail?" "No, a garage-sale." As Shirt58 has said, where a language can go depends on where it started out. See drunken walk.μηδείς (talk) 03:47, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Do not fold, spindle or mutilate

A question for oldies (like me)...

There's a discussion over at Talk:Punched card about the expression "Do not fold, spindle or mutilate". The article describes it as a "a motto for the post-World War II era." An editor has observed that "motto" isn't really the right descriptor for it, and has suggested "meme". I see that as anachronistic, since that word didn't exist back then.

Any suggestions? HiLo48 (talk) 05:50, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Aphorism ? Saying ? Catchphrase ? StuRat (talk) 06:08, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Maxim, adage, dictum, saw? Does anyone know how to say it in Latin? Then we could call it "The baby boomers' brocard". -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 06:13, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Maxim, motto, adage, etc all imply a certain significance that I don't think the phrase has - I think "catchphrase" works well (and certainly isn't anachronistic). "Catchword" is now a bit archaic, but would work for a century or so earlier. Andrew Gray (talk) 06:18, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

In the Emily Litella article, it says "The line "Never mind" became a lighthearted catchphrase of the era", which seems to be in accord with the meaning you want to express... AnonMoos (talk) 11:17, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Fixed phrase aka set expression or set phrase or occasionally formula. meltBanana 14:33, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Wha? Did memes not exist before Dawkins named them? —Tamfang (talk) 05:33, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

They were called "fads", "crazes" etc. Before the Internet, there was Xeroxlore... AnonMoos (talk) 06:06, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Ah, isn't it nice to educate the young'ns occasionally? HiLo48 (talk) 07:07, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks folks. I like catchphrase. I'll take it back to the other discussion, and point it here as well. HiLo48 (talk) 21:49, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

How about "mantra"? Roger (talk) 09:21, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Umm ... that works for me. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 07:30, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Rhyddfrydol

Morning reference desk regulars. The Welsh word for 'liberal' is 'rhyddfrydol'. Do we have any idea of the etymology of this word, given how different it looks and sounds? doktorb _words^deeds 08:28, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

"Different": different from what? "Rhydd" is an adjective meaning "free" (as in speech). Marnanel (talk) 09:38, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

I think the OP means it looks and sounds very different from "liberal". -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 10:21, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

The History of the Welsh language is different from the History of the English language, and many words that mean the same look and sound completely different.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 12:37, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

I suppose it's worth noting that Latin liber means "free", so rhyddfrydol is something of a calque. Deor (talk) 13:01, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Rhyddfrydol = rhydd-bryd-ol = free-will-adj.

According to Pokorny, rhydd ("free") is from an IE root prāi-, prəi-, prī-, "be willing", and is cognate with "free". Bryd ("mind, will") is ultimately from IE bher- ("bear, carry"), so related to "bear" and Latin "ferre"; but more immediately to Irish brith ("judgment"). So rhyddfrydol is partly related to "free", but not to "liberal". --ColinFine (talk) 17:52, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, sorry, I didn't do very well with my question first thing in the morning. I am British and posted that question with only having one cup of tea beforehand so that's my excuse. Thanks for the answers - it's interesting to see the responses you've given, many thanks for the help.doktorb _words^deeds 20:50, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Arabic help

Hi! What is the Arabic for "Offices of Air Algerie in Beijing" ? I want to add that to File:AirAlgerieOfficeBeijing.JPG - Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 11:27, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

"مكتب الخطوط الجوية الجزائرية في بكين" should work fine. --Soman (talk) 14:48, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Thank you! Also what is the Arabic in File:Fmso front.jpg? Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 01:15, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

" کلیة الطبا سوسة ". --Omidinist (talk) 04:24, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Thank you! WhisperToMe (talk) 05:04, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

October 15

Bristish

Resolved

I noticed that "Bristish" is a common misspelling for "British". As there are so many of them, could you get your bots to fix it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.12.252.114 (talk) 06:21, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

I think the page you want is "Wikipedia:Bot requests". Gabbe (talk) 06:50, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

It probably means people from Bristol. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 07:05, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

You know he's right -- Q Chris (talk) 08:25, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Well, rightish, there are 49 instances of this misspelling in the whole English Wikipedia. Is that common? I have (hopefully) fixed them. If you use the search within WP for misspelled words you'll get a much more condensed report (try parrallel for example). Richard Avery (talk) 09:56, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

How odd - my search shows 807 and previously showed over 1000, most still seem to be there. -- Q Chris (talk) 10:53, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

How odd, yourself. I get 49 in content pages, and 183 in the entire site. What are we doing differently? -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 11:00, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

It seems that a google.co.uk search for site:en.wikipedia.org Bristish gives 1,040 results, but a serach on google.co, gives 800. The wikipedia's own serach gives 49! -- Q Chris (talk) 11:23, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

If you exclude talk and user pages from Google it is down to 111 matches but even then Google includes some correct spelling of 'British' on it's search results. Wikipedia under lists and excludes the match in some none prose area's and excludes results such as word variations, so you have to search separately for 'Bristishers' et cetera. Regards, Sun Creator^(talk) 12:12, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Those are interesting stastistics.  :) -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 19:00, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Typo rules used by AutoWikiBrowser and WPCleaner have now been extended to handle Bristish typos. Regards, Sun Creator^(talk) 12:12, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Boats/ships given feminine article in English

Why are (or were, if the practice has decreased) naval vessels described as "she"? It doesn't seem to be a linguistic carryover from other European languages that give nouns gender, because I checked that in French, "a boat" is "un bateau" (m), and "a ship" is "un navire" (m); in Spanish, "a boat" is "un barco" (m), and "a ship" is "un buque" (m); and I checked German, in which "a boat" is "ein Boot" (m), and "a ship" is "ein Schiff" (m). So why are (or were) boats/ships described femininely in English? 20.137.2.50 (talk) 13:43, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Here are links to five related discussions now archived.

• Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2010 January 13#Are ships feminine in American as they are in English ? And why ?
• Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2008 February 2#Feminin Ships
• Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2008 November 17#"he" and "she" nouns
• Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2010 January 23#a Ship is a she? or a it?
• Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2010 January 27#Use of “She”

—Wavelength (talk) 14:52, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

NB: In German both are neuter, not masculine - das Boot and das Schiff. - Karenjc 14:57, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Moreover, the German language nevertheless has the same tradition of referring to specific ships as feminine. For example, the German article on the MV Wilhelm Gustloff (de:Wilhelm Gustloff (Schiff)) starts out with "Die Wilhelm Gustloff war ein Passagierschiff". "Die" is a definite, feminine, singular, nominative article, even though Wilhelm Gustloff himself was a man, and even though, as pointed out by Karenjc, "das Schiff" (and likewise "das Passagierschiff") are neuter. ---Sluzzelin talk

The German tradition of calling ships "she" is a very recent phenomenon. In books from the 1920ies you routinely encounter "he" for a ship. (Not, curiously, "it" although "das Schiff" is neuter, as Karenjc pointed out). Allegedly, emperor Wilhelm II wanted to emulate his British relatives not only in having a big navy but also in traditions surrounding the navy and thus started using "she" when referring to ships. Whether that is true or not I don't know but it's not unlikely that it was a fashion that arose after the English usage.--Zoppp (talk) 21:55, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for providing the opportunity to quote from the famous tea-towel: “A ship is called a “she” because there is always a great deal of bustle around her; there is usually a gang of men about, she has a waist and stays; it takes a lot of paint to keep her good looking; it is not the initial expense that breaks you, it is the upkeep; she can be all decked out; it takes an experienced man to handle her correctly; and without a man at the helm, she is absolutely uncontrollable. She shows her topsides, hides her bottom and, when coming into port, always heads for the buoys.” - Cucumber Mike (talk) 17:07, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

By the way, the English articles (the, a/an) are completely indeclinable for grammatical categories; it's only in pronoun references ("she" etc.) that feminine personification of boats, countries, etc. is manifested in English... AnonMoos (talk) 16:36, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

• Is it likely that the beginning of the feminization of nautical vessels traces back to female busts being placed on the bow of them, whenever and wherever that first started to happen? i.e., are there, or are there not references to boats/ships as a 'she' before any boat/ship made with a female bust on the bow is known to have been made? 20.137.2.50 (talk) 16:48, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

See "Figurehead (object)" and Acts 28:11.

—Wavelength (talk) 18:49, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

"American" accent

I just love the accent of Elizabeth McGovern as Lady Cora in Downton Abbey, but what kind of accent is that? And is it her natural speaking voice? I am English and to me it sounds essentially American, but different from most American accents I am familiar with. What does it sound like to Americans? (Maybe it sounds British!) For those whe don't know the series, I could find surprisingly few clips on YouTube; just these short ones with not-great audio:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwZKPAY7fkU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQsLJP7mRgM — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.128.4.150 (talk) 19:27, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

I don't hear any accent at all, so I suppose that makes it my accent, General American. The one exception was the word "late", near the end of the 2nd clip, which sounded like "lyate" to me. StuRat (talk) 19:35, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

An aside: I watched Ordinary People last week, for the first time since I saw it at the cinema on first release in 1980/81. When the Elizabeth McGovern character appeared, I recognised her voice and face but could not for the life of me place where I knew her from. Even seeing her name in the credits didn't cause pennies to drop. I finished up checking her out here, and the first mention of Downton Abbey made it all clear. Then I wondered how I didn't recognise her as Cora Grantham straight away. She's hardly changed in 30 years. Except, she wasn't wearing crinolines in Ordinary People. Yes, that must be it. Nothing to do with advancing Alzheimers. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 19:43, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

• She enunciates her /t/s clearly, not reducing them to flaps or glottalizing them. (General_American#Consonants) Other than that its a plain General American accent. There is such a thing as Stage English and the Mid-Atlantic accent, but she doesn't really affect that. μηδείς (talk) 20:11, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Strange, it doesn't sound "plain" to me at all, it sounds quite distinctive. I wonder why. 86.128.4.150 (talk) 20:13, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Well, I love the show, have had a crush on McGovern since childhood, and as one might guess, have listened closely to her speech. She does pronounce her /r/s, unlike the Brits who have an RP accent on the show. Other than enunciating very clearly I don't think she's got an peculiarities that stand out. I'll have to listen whether she has the Mary-marry-merry merger. Given the care of her speech I doubt it. μηδείς (talk) 20:18, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

I just fast-forwarded through an episode. Unfortunately she really only has a minute or two of lines at most in an episode. The only thing that stood out beside her /t/s was her speech rhythm, which sounded influenced by the received pronunciation accent. Her stressed syllables were lengthened, as for instance, when she said the shell-shocked butler Lang "looked like a RAAAbit in front of a SNAKE." μηδείς (talk) 20:43, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

I had recently watched the show together with an American (native American-English speaker having grown up in Southern California) who found McGovern's pronunciation to be special too, a bit like that of an American who has spent a long time living in England (which applies both to her character and to Elizabeth McGovern herself). I now revisited her diction in Once Upon A Time in America, almost 30 years ago and before she had moved to England, and, to me, it sounds distinct/unusual even there, though not the same as in Downton Abbey. Then again, I'm not a native English speaker, so I can't claim to hear the same subtleties an American person might hear. ---Sluzzelin talk 19:51, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

I am downloading OuaTiA to compare. But yes, her accent on Downton Abbey is exactly what one might expect from an American in Britain, she's partially assimilated her speech to the locals. Americans do, when speaking very carefully, (or did when I was a child,) clearly enunciate their /t/s. When I was in choir in elemantary school the director made a point of it. (You can hear Billy Joel make an effort to enunciate his /t/s in his singing.) I can remember the director getting incensed when we sang "Silen' Nigh'". See code switching and compare Madonna's acquired British accent. μηδείς (talk) 22:06, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

McGovern seems to have much the same upscale stage voice in Once upon a Time in America that she does in Downton Abbey. Given she's a native of Evanston, Illinois, you'd expect her to have the rather unattractive Northern cities vowel shift if she were a working class male. As it is she seems to speak a midwestern form of General American similar to that of John Goodman of St. Louis, Missouri or Kate Mulgrew (Captain Janeway) of Iowa. μηδείς (talk) 20:18, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Abrogate

It is defined as: Repeal or do away with (a law, right, or formal agreement). However, the word is also used to mean: to treat as non-existant <an abrogation of responsibility>. Is this a valid form of usage? In this sentence: "Paul Ryan launched a withering attack charging the US president with ______ responsibility for the economy", are abdicating and abrogating equally acceptable verbs to use? Ankh.Morpork 19:52, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

The OED has the legal meaning as the first entry, followed by "To do away with, to put an end to; (occas.) to reject or deny." Marnanel (talk) 20:46, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Dereliction or abdication of his duty would be better than abrogation. μηδείς (talk) 23:33, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Abrogation of a person's own duty has a specific legal meaning in an administrative law context while dereliction and abdication have different specific meanings and, depending on the intention of the author here, they may well not be interchangeable. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 09:25, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

caisse

Can you record the pronunciation of the word caisse in Quebec accent ? Fête (talk) 22:17, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

That should be [kɛ:s] in standard French, which would be [kaɛ̯s] (or [kei̯s] among older speakers according to our article Quebec_French_phonology#Diphthongization. But I have absolutely no personal experience with this myself, and am just giving you the links and what they say. μηδείς (talk) 04:13, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

There are plenty of youtube videos of politicians and journalists blathering on about the scandale de la Caisse de dépôt et placement du Québec. Clarityfiend (talk) 06:32, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

October 16

British and southern US accents

I saw a program on TV that said that some accents in the southern US are very similar to British accents of the 18th century. How do they know what 18th-century accents were like? Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 01:16, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

You may be interested in Historical linguistics. I tried looking for a Wikipedia article on phonological reconstruction, but that redirected to "historical linguistics". User:Medeis may have some better clues for you, they seem to be very knowledgeable on linguistics. --Jayron32 02:32, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

I don't think that what is thought of as a typical Southern accent is very 18th-century. One voluminous scholarly work with a lot of information is "English Pronunciation 1500-1700" (vols. 1 and 2) by Eric John Dobson (though it technically ends at the beginning of the 18th)... AnonMoos (talk) 02:51, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

One obvious point - there is no such thing as a 'British accent', even now. There certainly wasn't one in the 18th century. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:53, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

I have come across various not very scholarly references that have attributed characteristics of genteel Southern American English to Cavalier English speech of aristocrats under the reign of Charles I of England and other landed aristocrats. (See Charleston, Virginia (where I was conceived--yes, I went there) and The Carolinas) They are supposedly the immigrants who could afford estates and slaves. One can draw obvious parallels between the non-rhotic speech of the South (and New England) and received pronunciation. But I have never come across anything I have found particularly convincing in respect to this and have no worthwhile references to offer. My suspicion is that the non-rhotic aspect of Southern speech is an issue of random fixation based on an original bias of Southern non-rhotic speakers than anything else. μηδείς (talk) 03:09, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

I know this is anecdotal evidence and original research, but I have a US Southern accent and several times people have thought that I was from the UK because of my accent. Just as there isn't one British accent, there isn't one Southern accent. Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 03:30, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

The recent source of the accent comparison was David Stern of the University of Connecticut. Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 04:06, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

You think that's bad? I have a South Jersey accent and have been accused of being British. I think it's the enunciation. μηδείς (talk) 04:03, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

I have a very typical Southern English accent, and when in the USA once I was mistaken for a Texan, which astonished me. 86.146.105.202 (talk) 17:24, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm not a linguist, but I'm rather sceptical of the whole premise. How could an accent be transplanted to an alien setting and remain ossified for 200 years, while the same accent has changed (apparently) out of all recognition in its home environment? It makes no sense. Alansplodge (talk) 12:36, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Actually that's a rather common phenomenon, where there is a center in a language from which innovations spread, with peripheral areas retaining conservative and even archaic features. For example, consider the spread of the loss of final /r/ from the center to the periphery in Britain Rhotic_and_non-rhotic_accents#Development_of_non-rhotic_accents and the retention of archaic features like pronunciation of "gh" and trilling of /r/ in some Scottish dialects. See wave model. μηδείς (talk) 16:53, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Other examples include Quebec French which retains elements of 18th century French lost in modern French, and Icelandic which is much closer to ancient Norse than modern Norwegian, Swedish or Danish. Modern Icelanders take pride in their language and actually put extra effort into maintaining their language and eschewing loans from other languages. It seems counter-intuitive that languages in isolated areas would develop less than the language in its 'original habitat', but it seems to be the case. V85 (talk) 19:46, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

It's the opposite of what one would expect from biology, since species in fringe areas adapt to their new surroundings and change because of it. But there is no natural selection as such in linguistic change. A large amount of linguistic change is due to innovation in a prestigious center such as Paris in French or youth culture centered on NY and LA in the US. But the phenomenon even can be found in the innovative Satem dialects of Indo-European which were centered on the Pontic homeland with the Centum languages being found on the periphery. See centum-satem isogloss. μηδείς (talk) 19:53, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

But how do they know what the accents were like 250 years ago (the article oesn't say). Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 21:46, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

I don't have a specific answer (someone may) but it's usually done via two methods, either the comments of educated writers or writers from other areas who comment on the peculiarities of local speech (think Mark Twain portraying local dialect in his writings) or by misspellings of untutored local writers which reveal their actual pronunciations rather than accepted spellings; "wif dat" for "with that" in Britain, "nigga" in the US, and the like. μηδείς (talk) 21:55, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Arabic help

What is the Arabic on the billboard: File:Corruption-Nouakchott.jpg? How do you say "Billboard of a campaign to prevent corruption in Nouakchott" in Arabic? Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 03:07, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

"أبرهن على نزاهتي بالامتناع عن الرشوة". I don't know how to translate the description, though. Lesgles (talk) 04:24, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Thank you! Also, what's the Arabic in http://web.archive.org/web/20100804212603im_/http://www.mf.gov.dz/images/bannnn.gif ? Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 05:02, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

The first one, Lesgles is referring to, says: "I show my integrity by refusing to be corrupted". And the second one is الجمهوریة الجزائریة الدیمقراطیة الشعبیة (the Democratic and Popular Republic of Algeria), وزارة المالیة (Ministry of Finances). --Omidinist (talk) 05:38, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, Omidinist! Now, what would the image description "Billboard of a campaign to prevent corruption in Nouakchott" be in Arabic? And for File:Rue_Champollion_in_Alexandria.JPG what is the Arabic on the sign? WhisperToMe (talk) 12:44, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

The street sign says "شارع شامپوليون", Champollion Street. Do note the letter پ (Pe_(Persian_letter)), usually not used in Arabic. --Soman (talk) 14:19, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

The image description would be "لوحة من حملة لمنع الرشوة في نواكشوط". --Omidinist (talk) 15:07, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Thank you! WhisperToMe (talk) 16:38, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

What is the Arabic name of Karim Djoudi, the Algerian minister of finance? WhisperToMe (talk) 16:58, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

"كريم جودي"

[3] Lesgles (talk) 17:23, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks a bunch! WhisperToMe (talk) 18:03, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Is there a noun, derived from "hear"?

The noun derived from "see" is "sight". Is there an analogous noun derived from "hear"? "I heard her voice, and it was love at first ...?" --KnightMove (talk) 06:08, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Hearing is the word, I believe. The 5 traditional senses are sight, touch, smell, taste and hearing. These words can all be used as verbs as well. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 06:24, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Ignore the man behind the curtain. He's offering you a red hearing. Clarityfiend (talk) 07:29, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. Well, "Hearing" is not a noun in the strictest sense, but it's good to know that there is no other.

Clarityfiend: In case you deem me to be a troll... I don't know why, but I'm simply not. --KnightMove (talk) 08:49, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean that it's "not a noun in the strict sense". Are you claiming that gerunds are not quite nouns? You can claim that if you want, though I'm not sure the position really makes sense, but in this case it doesn't matter, because hearing as a sense is a different thing from hearing as an instance of what happens when you hear something. And hearing as a sense is quite clearly a noun, in the strictest possible sense, and is equally clearly derived from the verb hear. --Trovatore (talk) 08:57, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

As I had accepted that hearing is the only English term, there is no vital necessity to continue this discussion, but for clarification an answer and out of curiosity one more question:

1. I think that in poetic/literary contexts there is indeed a difference between gerunds and what I call nouns in the strictest sense, because gerunds as a rather trivial derivation of verbs often leave a weaker impression. I deem the sentence "I demand your obedience!" to have much more impact than "I demand your obeying!", even though there is no actual difference in meaning. I feel the need to contrast love at first hearing to love at first sight, which sounds somewhat strange, quirky, and weak, IMHO. Thus I was looking for a better word. Ok, there is none!
2. "...hearing as a sense is a different thing from hearing as an instance of what happens when you hear something. And hearing as a sense is quite clearly a noun, in the strictest possible sense, and is equally clearly derived from the verb hear." Actually, I do not understand the difference. Both are gerunds, aren't they?

--KnightMove (talk) 10:12, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

You know, actually, I think you have still a third meaning in mind. Sight in "love at first sight" is, I think, neither the sense of sight nor an instance of seeing, but rather a thing (phenomenon rather than noumenon) that is seen, a visual image. The corresponding word for "auditory phenomenon" is probably sound. But "love at first sound", unfortunately, sounds like a joke. --Trovatore (talk) 23:25, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Colin accurately explains my point, below. --Trovatore (talk) 16:13, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

1) You may wish to consider the poem/prayer "God be in my Head", in which each line ends in a gerund:

God be in my head, and in my understanding;

God be in mine eyes, and in my looking;

God be in my mouth, and in my speaking;

God be in my heart, and in my thinking;

God be at mine end, and at my departing.

2) While it's obviously the same formation, and no verb forms the two parts differently, there is an obvious difference of quality, meaning and usage between 'hearing' in "I was hearing of new disasters every day" and in "My hearing has started to go; please speak up". I am insufficiently a linguistic pedant to know whether the terms 'present participle' and 'gerund' overlap in meaning. AlexTiefling (talk) 10:43, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Alex: no, the present participle is not at issue here. The point Trovatore is making, and KnightMove questioning, is that "hearing" as a noun is different from "hearing" as a gerund. No doubt they started as the same word, but the noun "hearing" has shifted its meaning to encompass exactly the same range of meanings, mutatis mutandis as "sight". I guess you could regard this as a broadening of the meaning of one word, but I find it more natural to regard it as now two separate words. When it means "act of hearing" (eg I wasn't happy about hearing that), or "acts of hearing in general" (eg Hearing about acts of generosity always makes me happy), it is clearly a gerund, exactly parallel to "seeing"; but when it means "auditory faculty", the suggestion is that it is not a gerund, as my hearing is good, parallel to my sight is good, does not refer to any acts of hearing, but to the faculty itself. --ColinFine (talk) 13:17, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Nah. I'm just having my little jest. Clarityfiend (talk) 09:59, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

EO unequivically declares "hearing" to be a noun form.[4] It's worth pointing out that "sight" as a sort-of noun form of "see" is a later development. It originally meant "something seen".[5] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:22, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

tenable, meaning?

"Commonwealth Academic Fellowship tenable in UK". What does the word "tenable" in this document mean? --202.88.252.2 (talk) 07:06, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Tenable: "capable of being occupied, possessed, held, or enjoyed, as under certain conditions: a research grant tenable for two years

In this case, "The Fellowships are for a specific programme of academic collaboration ...." and candidates should "be available to commence their Fellowship in the United Kingdom on 1 September, 2013". -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 07:32, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

"Tenable" is one of a family of words derived from the Latin tenere, which means "to hold" or "to keep"; hence it also means "to have" in the sense of "to possess".[6] Words such as "tenant", "tenet" and "tenor" are also from this root, and words such as "tendril" and "tentacle" are cousins. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:30, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

We’re done for

Meaning we're doomed.

I'm curious as to how this expression arose. This says it dates from 1803, but doesn't tell me who first said and why and in what context. Or, most importantly, how they expected anyone else to understand what they meant. Because there was no existing corresponding active expression that might have given the game away. All there is is this passive expression "<someone's> done for". Or am I wrong in making that assumption? Maybe there was an idiom "To do somebody for", that's fallen into disuse.

Another thing. It seems to exist only in the present. Never "He was done for" or "We will be done for". I can say that the world will end on 21 December, but I can't say we will be done for on 21 December. Can I? We're done for right now, because our fates are already set in stone, even if our actual grisly and agonising deaths will not occur for two more months.

Can anyone shed some light on this, please. Preferably before December. Just in case. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 10:57, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

I would certainly understand "We will be done for"; I may even have used that form myself. And the phrasal-verb form is "to do for somebody", not *"to do somebody for" - again, this is something which I've heard and used. AlexTiefling (talk) 11:02, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

"To do for somebody" - doesn't that mean to look after somebody, tend to their needs, etc; rather than be the agent of their doom? -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 11:11, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Siegfried Sassoon thinks not: http://poetry.poetryx.com/poems/7220/ AlexTiefling (talk) 11:13, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes, that is one meaning, but apparently there is another meaning of 'do for': To ruin, damage, or injure fatally, destroy, wear out entirely. (first known from 1740 in "D–mn you, I'll do for you") - Lindert (talk) 11:16, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

e/c We'll be done for, could also be used in conditional sense. Alanscottwalker (talk) 11:20, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

It is first found (according to the OED) in a letter (dated 1803) by Lord Nelson, quoted in The dispatches and letters of Vice Admiral Lord Viscount Nelson. You can find it online here. - Lindert (talk) 11:10, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

"We have had a dreadful winter. The Kent is almost done for, and she is going to Malta merely for a passage in the summer. Stately is obliged to have her lower-deck guns taken out, she is so very weak."

Excellent, thank you. But I still want to know how Nelson could have had any confidence his reader would have understood what he meant. Context helps greatly, but if the actual sequence of words he chose was completely unknown, then they'd still be scratching their heads. I suppose it could be a relative of "to be done in". -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 11:18, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

It doesn't seem far from "done with," either. Alanscottwalker (talk) 11:22, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Most linguists will tell you that the earliest known written reference to a word or expression often substantially postdates the first oral use. These things come into being in the vernacular, eventually become accepted as standard, and only then used in writing. Additionally, we only get to see a fraction of the stuff that was actually written in any period, so other earlier uses may be lost. Rojomoke (talk) 12:01, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Very true, Rojomoke. See my response to Norwegian Blue below. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 22:09, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

In the "sleepy suburb" thread some days ago, I learned about the google ngram viewer feature, which works nicely here too, and fits well with a date around 1800: We are done for. --NorwegianBlue ^talk 20:09, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Lovely, thanks. I fiddled around with a few variations on the phrase, and found this result for "I am done for", which shows some results from around 1780. All the others (You are, he is, she is, we are ...) start around 1800 and have a pronounced spike around 1900. Maybe that was turn-of-the-century angst at work. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 22:09, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

If you click through from the ngram to the Google Books search you'll see that the 1780ish results are all false positives from Mercutio in Romeo and Juliet: "Nay, if our wits run the wild-goose chase, I am done; for thou hast more of the wild goose in one of thy wits than, I am sure, I have in my whole five." --OpenToppedBus - Talk to the driver 16:56, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Check. Seems my analytical powers are done for. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 20:33, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

volume

Can you turn up the volume of the file File:FRQC-tête.ogg please ? Fête (talk) 22:11, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Why don't you just turn up the sound on your computer? --Viennese Waltz 22:15, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Can you turn up the volume of the file File:Fr-Normandie-ça va.ogg please ? Because it's not loud. Fête (talk) 22:18, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

See VW's response, above. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:58, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

I often run into the same problem, and wish the source file were louder. μηδείς (talk) 23:17, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Is there a practical way to fix it here? Or would it have to be downloaded, tinkered with, and re-uploaded? Would the folks at the "village pump" know? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:33, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Might get an answer on computing. μηδείς (talk) 02:45, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

If the problem is that the file is recorded at a low volume, this is can be adjusted ("normalized") in a sound editing program. The workflow is download, adjust, upload new version. Audacity would be fine. This of course amplifies noise as well. I'm on a work PC now, which doesn't even have sound, much less Audacity, but I can take a look and see if it is easily adjusted or not later tonight. --NorwegianBlue ^talk 14:46, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Done. Both files were recorded at a very low volume. --NorwegianBlue ^talk 17:51, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

October 17

Equivalents to Basic English/Special English in Spanish, French, and German?

Hi! I noted that Simple English Wikipedia has a basis in Basic English, Special English, two standardized simplified Englishes. Do you know of any equivalents in Spanish, French, and/or German? If so, they could form bases of Simple versions of their Wikipedias - Since I know there are large numbers of Spanish speakers in the United States who may have access to technology through public libraries but are not well educated, I think a Simple Spanish Wikipedia could be very helpful. WhisperToMe (talk) 01:42, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Basic English isn't meant so much for uneducated English speakers, but for speakers who have English as a second language, it being the language with the most second-language speakers in the world. French, Spanish and German are all easy to pronounce once you know the spelling rules, while English is a crap shoot in that respect. But none of them takes kindly to having its grammatical desinences removed. μηδείς (talk) 03:20, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

French? Easier than English, maybe. But it has plenty of stuff you just have to know, especially in terms of when letters are silent and when they aren't. (An old colleague summed it up as "don't pronounce anything in the second half of the word", which works pretty well for, say, prennent.) --Trovatore (talk) 04:02, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

It's true that Basic English was meant for ESL purposes, but Simple English Wikipedia is also trying to target people who are relatively uneducated and children as well as ESL. WhisperToMe (talk) 04:04, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

To be honest I don't think SEW has a clear rationale. It was my understanding that it was supposed to be able to treat material that was just as difficult, but using simple language. The problem is, of course, that in practice this is not in fact possible — while it is certainly true that it is a bad habit to use unnecessarily difficult language, it is also true that precise discussion of specialized material requires specialized language.

As a same-level-of-sophistication copy of en.wiki using simple language, SEW is just a flat failure. As a "children's WP" it could possibly make sense, but in that case it probably shouldn't e treated as a "language" WP, but as a different WikiMedia project. --Trovatore (talk) 04:15, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Would it be fair to say that it is difficult to introduce complicated/precise topics to relatively uneducated people anyway? If they aren't able to understand complex sentence patterns and/or terminology then it would be very difficult to discuss certain things with them. There are languages which by design have great difficulty in discussing things like sciences and modern technology (It can take a long White Hmong sentence to convey what a short English sentence can say) - Because of these two aspects we can have language wikis which aren't/can't be as "sophisticated" or "technical" as say, English and French WhisperToMe (talk) 04:38, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

“The untrained man reads a paper on natural science and thinks: ‘Now why couldn't he explain this in simple language.’ He can't seem to realize that what he tried to read was the simplest possible language – for that subject matter. In fact, a great deal of natural philosophy is simply a process of linguistic simplification – an effort to invent languages in which half a page of equations can express an idea which could not be stated in less than a thousand pages of so-called ‘simple’ language.” —A Canticle for Leibowitz

French may have a lot of silent letters but there is no confusion over how they are pronounced, nor is there confusion over how the non-silent ones are pronounced. And if one drops the verb endings it is simply no longer French. Those languages are simply not amenable to the same project that English is, for the same reasons I just gave, regardless of the uneducated trying to take advantage. μηδείς (talk) 04:18, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

There is confusion over whether they are silent or not, and no simple rules for determining that. There are also one-off pronunciations specific to a given word (e.g. the schwa in the first syllable of faisons). --Trovatore (talk) 04:23, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Getting back to your original question, the only non-English equivalent of a standardized simplified language that I know of is français fondamental. These languages are restricted on purpose; any natural language, including the Hmong languages, can express complicated concepts through loanwords, calques, etc., if the speakers are motivated to do so. I think that the paucity of scientific literature in Hmong is more a product of the social situation of Hmong speakers than of the languages themselves. Also, just so we're clear in this discussion, Basic English and Simple English have nothing to do with pronunciation or spelling reform. Lesgles (talk) 05:03, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes, it's true that natural languages can adopt loan words, etc. And I agree that the limited natural languages do have to do with cultural/situational issues. But sometimes it can become cumbersome to incorporate and explain all of these loanwords. In some countries people switch from their native tongue to a second or third language just to discuss scientific topics/etc. Anyway, thanks for the tip! I'll review the failed French Simple nominations, and then make a proposal regarding starting a "Simple French" Wikipedia based on "français fondamental" WhisperToMe (talk) 06:22, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

You'll have to give examples, Trovatore. Prennent is perfectly regular in regards to pronunciation for a third person verb and presents no confusion. French spelling may be more complicated than its surface phonetics, but that is not bad given it conveys information you'd otherwise have to gather from context. μηδείς (talk) 05:05, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

I have never lived in France, so I don't really know, but I was taught in high school that prennent is a single-syllable word. I have heard other French speakers say it with two syllables, but the second syllable was at most a little glide. It certainly does not rhyme with, say, maintnent. --Trovatore (talk) 08:19, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes, it's just a rule you have to learn that the -ent ending of otherwise polysyllabic third person plural verbs are silent. You have to apply grammatical criteria; it's not like Spanish where surface orthography tells you all you need to know. But it's not like prennent has an irregular pronunciation once you know the rules. μηδείς (talk) 18:02, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

On Trovatore's "little glide". Speakers in the South of France have a schwa at the end of prennent, as they do with word-final e. I also recently discovered that some dialects systematically pronounce the -ent ending, and do indeed rhyme prennent and maintenant. It is regarded as very non-standard, a dialectal form rather than an accent. I am trying to find out more, but there is such a stigma attached to non-standard French, people don't like to admit to theses variants. Itsmejudith (talk) 20:55, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

That's very interesting. I hadn't known about the regional aspect. I did know that these syllables come back in sung French. --Trovatore (talk) 00:59, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

I started a Meta page to explore the concept of a Simple French Wikipedia: Meta:Babel#Simple_French_Wikipedia_proposal_based_on_fran.C3.A7ais_fondamental WhisperToMe (talk) 06:35, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Can you give a IPA transcription or description of how they pronounce the -ent in prennent, Judith? (BTW, are you yourself Judith, or are you telling Judith it's you?)μηδείς (talk) 03:58, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Ils prennent. Standard French: Template:IPA-fr, non-standard French (heard in Sarthe and Mayenne French départements: Template:IPA-fr I don't know how to get rid of the square brackets (I use the IPA-fr template) — AldoSyrt (talk) 08:47, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

See the new article "Français fondamental".—Wavelength (talk) 15:19, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Help with Chinese names

Hopefully quite a simple question: I'd like to use this book as a reference, but don't know how to cite the names of its authors. They're listed by Google as "Dan Yao, Jinhui Deng, Feng Wang, Huiyun Tang"; however the front cover of the book reads "Yao Dan et al", and Feng Wang redirects to Wang Feng. So, are Google's versions reversed/westernised? And if so should we return them to family-name-first per WP:NC-ZH? Thanks! – Arms & Hearts (talk) 01:44, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

• Google probably listed the name in western order. Chinese names#Chinese names in English states that in most situations Chinese people use the family name first. It may help to try to find the Chinese characters of the authors. Deng, Yao, Wang, and Tang are all Chinese surnames. WhisperToMe (talk) 01:49, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

If you're trying to work out which is which, but are not up on Chinese surnames, it's useful to note that Chinese given names are often (not always) two syllables, while surnames rarely (though occasionally) are. Henry^Flower 04:23, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes it looks like these names have been re-ordered - so if you are citing them as "Surname, Initial." they would be "Yao, D., Deng, J., Wang, F., and Tang, H." --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 09:31, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

(Belated) thanks everyone! – Arms & Hearts (talk) 16:54, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Linear A and Linear B

I couldn't find mention of this in the articles Linear A and Linear B, but in what sense are they "linear"? Being that Linear A is still unintelligible and that these names were coined before Linear B was deciphered, I assume it must refer to something fairly superficial. Some orthographic feature, perhaps? 129.234.186.45 (talk) 09:03, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

From Writing and Script: A Very Short Introduction by Andrew Robinson: "The term 'Linear' was used not because the signs were written in sequence but because they consisted of lines inscibed on the flat surface of the clay. (...) This writing was quite different from the three-dimensional, engraved images of a third, primarily pictographic Cretan script." ([7])

I've added this to the Linear A article as well. - Lindert (talk) 09:45, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, Lindert. I'm not sure I follow the "flat" vs. "three-dimensional" distinction, but the Linear scripts are certainly less pictographic and more... ahem, linear. 129.234.186.45 (talk) 11:19, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

The terms were originally coined by Arthur Evans as part of his various speculations about the origin and development of writing. This is discussed in detail in "The Story of Archaeological Decipherment: From Egyptian Hieroglyphs to Linear B" by Maurice Pope (ISBN 0-684-14303-8)... -- AnonMoos (talk) 17:20, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Can someone point to a transliteration of a Linear A text assuming the values assigned to Linear B? μηδείς (talk) 19:23, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Older versions of the article have such ( http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Linear_A&oldid=492272596 etc.) AnonMoos (talk) 04:27, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

"They need to see the new 4-84s to make sure it works with their OC"

From Punch-drunk love, what does it mean? Groupask (talk) 12:22, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Don't know about 4-84s, but OC usually means "original content". --Viennese Waltz 12:39, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Or Officer Commanding, Offensive Coordinator, Old Carthusian, etc. "usually", at best, depends on context and at worst a . Many more options on our OC dab page. --Tagishsimon (talk) 12:56, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Given the protagonist's occupation, "4/84s" might apply to a case of 4 times 84 (total of 336) flushable wipes. If you google "case of 4/84s" or even just "4/84s" you mainly get references to Cottonelle fresh flushable wipes. ---Sluzzelin talk 13:08, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. That still leave us with the question of OC, as well as the poor grammer of the sentence ... new 4.84s ... it works. --Tagishsimon (talk) 13:22, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

It might not mean anything at all. It could be Hollywood Technobabble; designed to sound like he's saying something that has meaning, but doesn't. --Jayron32 13:29, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

I tend to agree with Jayron32. Note that the sentence in question is spoken, not by the Adam Sandler character, but by his sister to her coworker Lena and is clearly intended to relate to their job. In a hasty scan of the film's script, I don't see any mention of what their job actually is, so it's likely that the sentence is just supposed to be generic "job speak". Deor (talk) 16:23, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Is defer here wrong?

"Dear Cecil: Is it true that, as a class, psychotherapists and other mental health professionals are crazier than average? And that despite their training and experience, they can recognize their own issues less readily than the average nutcase? — Paul Cecil replies: I defer judgment on whether shrinks don’t recognize their problems. On the contrary, there are indications some mental health professionals enter the field because they do recognize their problems and think their work will help them get a grip."

It seems that the author thought 'refer'defer means something else. Groupask (talk) 13:34, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

I don't see an issue. The respondant is deferring his judgement on shrinks, whilst noting that some do know they're nuts. Where do you get your "refer" from? --Tagishsimon (talk) 13:41, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Agree - it looks fine to me -- Q Chris (talk) 13:46, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, I meant "defer". OK, the author says "I defer judgment", I understand this as "I won't get into it myself", but then goes on "On the contrary", judging it. It seems that the author thought 'defer' means 'deny'. Groupask (talk) 13:55, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

"Defer" can mean to "put off to a later time", as in "Now is not the time to pass judgement on shrinks, so I'm not going to do that in answering your question" is basically what he is saying here. --Jayron32 13:57, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

(EC) I parse it as the repondant saying he defers judgement, but notes that there are some indications to the contrary. None of that seems problematic to me. Certainly not enough to presume that the word used was ill-chosen, such that the substitute changes entirely the meaning of his response. --Tagishsimon (talk) 13:59, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

But, wouldn't the sentence be better with "on the contrary" substituted for "However"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Groupask (talk • contribs) 14:05, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

The text you cited has "on the contrary" in it; however, I can see no "however". Lectonar (talk) 14:51, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

The OP asked if "however" could be on the place of "on the contrary." OsmanRF34 (talk) 17:44, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Groupask that the passage contradicts itself -- it says that it defers judgement, and then makes a judgement. Looie496 (talk) 15:04, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Only if you're unaware of the differences between indications and proof. --Tagishsimon (talk) 16:00, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

But what does "on the contrary" refers to? It has to refer to something contrary to what will be said. If you say "I defer judgment about this, but/even if/however there is evidence to it", it makes sense. In the present form, the sentence doesn't make much sense. OsmanRF34 (talk) 17:22, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

(ec) There are two different definitions of "defer". From Wiktionary: To submit to the opinion or desire of another in respect to their judgment or authority and To delay, or postpone, especially to postpone induction into military service. If it means the former (i.e., to be deferential to someone else) the speaker wouldn't offer his own opinion. If it means to delay, then the speaker wouldn't give his opinion in the next sentence -- that's not much of a delay! Either way, the speaker contradicted himself. Duoduoduo (talk) 17:27, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Or there is a "not" missing somewhere. "I won't defer judgment, on the contrary ..." would be OK. OsmanRF34 (talk) 17:42, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

No, I think Cecil meant what he said, more or less. "I decline at this time to commit myself to the proposition that shrinks don't recognize their problems. In fact, there is evidence for the contrary proposition." He doesn't commit himself to the contrary proposition either, but says there is evidence for it. He probably didn't choose the best possible wording, but it's not quite a self-contradiction. --Trovatore (talk) 03:14, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

"Doctrine" used in a scientific context?

What is the metaphorical/figurative meaning of "doctrine"? I'm still trying to figure out the meaning of this sentence in a peer-reviewed journal:

• Research on symbiosis developed in virtual conflict with the aims and doctrines of the major biological disciplines for most of the 20th century.

The doctrine article suggests: "In some organizations, doctrine is simply defined as 'that which is taught', in other words the basis for institutional teaching of its personnel internal ways of doing business." Therefore, I am guessing that, in scientific institutions, doctrine is simply defined as 'that which is taught', and when used absolutely figuratively, forms the foundation of that particular discipline. I suggest you to google this article and read this abstract. I believe it's written very poetically. 140.254.226.244 (talk) 13:38, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

The term is actually not all that widely used in science, but basically it is as you say, "that which is taught". The only scientific "doctrine" I'm really familiar with is the neuron doctrine, which is a set of beliefs about the structure of the nervous system. (By the way, if you were trying to link to a web page, it didn't work.) Looie496 (talk) 15:00, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Neither is evolutionism or evolutionist. Apparently, the journal article, The dynamics of symbiosis: an historical overview, does use American spelling, but also amusingly uses the term "evolutionist" as in "microbial evolutionists" or "classical neo-darwinian evolutionists". Another instance, "We so-called higher organisms did not just evolve from bacteria; we were created and maintained by bacteria," imprints an strong image in one's mind. Note how the sentence begins with "so-called" and ends with "by bacteria". With this slight wording, this article tries to imitate the words of a typical creationist but from a biologist's perspective. 140.254.121.36 (talk) 16:35, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

How about the term Central Dogma of Biology? That's a "dogma" I am quite familiar with. 140.254.121.36 (talk) 17:47, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

I have no opinion on the sentence you quote, but two other 'doctrines' would be the evolutionary synthesis and the central dogma. μηδείς (talk) 17:52, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

The discovery of Romance

When did people realize that tongues as Catalan, French, Italian, Portuguese, Spanish, Romanian, & cetera were all related? When was the lingual family of Romance languages proposed? --66.190.69.246 (talk) 16:42, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

I suggest that you check out the Wikipedia article on Romance languages. :-) The Romance languages are related to the Romans; the name Roman in the word stands for something. Those are all Romance languages, because they are derived from the Roman language, which is dead Latin. Latin, despite being "dead", is still being spoken and written and used in many academic disciplines. 140.254.121.36 (talk) 17:00, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

I suspect that they realised early on, because there is a degree of mutual intelligibility. I once heard a Portuguese friend hold a conversation with an Italian ice-cream man without either being able to speak the other's language. The relationship between French and Spanish is easy to spot once you write it down. In the Medieval period, every educated person would have been able to speak Latin too, so it wouldn't have taken a genius to see the similarities. Alansplodge (talk) 17:26, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Literate people in the areas where all these languages were spoken never lost consciousness that they were speaking a language which was a modified (they might have termed it "degenerate", "decayed" or "vulgarized") form of Latin. In each region, from Catalonia to Sicily, the question of whether people were speaking a separate language descended from Latin but entitled to consideration and respect in its own right, as opposed to a bad and ungrammatical localized Vulgar Latin, was debated for centuries. --Orange Mike | Talk 17:28, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

66.190.69.246 -- Up until around the time of Alcuin, people in Romance-speaking areas tended to pronounce written Latin using their own particular spoken vernacular dialect, and were not necessarily conscious that they spoke anything other than Latin. After that, the accumulated phonological, morphological, and grammatical changes became too great for it to remain practical to use Latin writing as a kind of loose spelling system for spoken Romance vernaculars, so that standardized Church Latin pronunciations started to be adopted, and Romance vernaculars started to be written quasi-phonetically. However, most early medieval Romance-speakers were not really aware of long-term language change, and often assumed that the ancient Romans spoke and wrote more or less as they did (i.e. using a written Latin which was very divergent from their spoken language). Dante was one of the first who forcefully and systematically presented evidence for change in the spoken language from ancient to medieval times, and classified the Romance languages into several approximate subgroups... AnonMoos (talk) 17:43, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Orange Mike and AnonMoos have covered this quite well. To emphasize the point by summing it up in one sentence; it is not the fact that these separate languages were related that was discovered, but the fact that they were separate languages which was discovered. μηδείς (talk) 19:20, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

More interesting would be to ask: when exactly did all these people realized that they were not speaking Latin anymore. OsmanRF34 (talk) 23:31, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

At least as early as the Strasbourg Oaths, in the case of French. Adam Bishop (talk) 00:08, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Are the dh's in adiudha and cadhuna meant to represent edh (ð)? The text from the oath from our article:

[Old French:] “Pro Deo amur et pro christian poblo et nostro commun saluament, d'ist di in auant, in quant Deus sauir et podir me dunat, si saluarai eo cist meon fradre Karlo, et in adiudha et in cadhuna cosa si cum om per dreit son fradra saluar dist, in o quid il mi altresi fazet. Et ab Ludher nul plaid nunquam prindrai qui meon uol cist meon fradre Karle in damno sit.”

μηδείς (talk) 18:03, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

• Yes: [8][9][10]--Luboslov Yezykin (talk) 15:00, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

If you really want more detailed analyses of this kind of issue, I will refer you to the articles Ausbausprache, Abstandsprache and Dachsprache, dialect continuum, and post-creole continuum. --Orange Mike | Talk 16:35, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

"A(n) historic event" in American English

What fraction of American speakers say "an historic event" rather than "a historic event"? Is this regionally based? Duoduoduo (talk) 17:38, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure where you'd find hard evidence, but I would guess it's a very small fraction of American English speakers who speak thus. It's not all that uncommon in print, but consonant sounds following "an" are unnatural in American speech. When I see this in print, I imagine a Cockney accent: "an 'istoric event." Given that this makes more sense in British English, I would guess you'd see it more among people who are pretentious, linguistic prescriptivists, and/or New England aristocrats. --BDD (talk) 18:12, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

See also H-dropping, which reminds me of another concept I was trying to get at: hypercorrection. --BDD (talk) 18:13, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

What led me to ask this question was that in this article, the University of California-Berkeley scientist Geoff Marcy, who according to our wikibio is an American who got both his graduate and undergraduate degrees in California, wrote in an e-mail This is an historic discovery. He's probably not a New England aristocrat or a hypercorrecter. Duoduoduo (talk) 18:39, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm from New England, but very much NOT from an aristocratic background, and I use "an historic" and "a historic" somewhat interchangably. Both sound perfectly natural, so long you don't aspirate the "h" in the first. I would say /ænʔɪstɔərɨk/ for the first an /eɪhɪstɔərɨk/ for the second. The first sounds more casual, while the second is what I would say for emphasis; the distinction is like the distinction between pronouncing "the" as /ðə/ or /ðiː/, I would use "an historic" in the same contexts as I would use "/ðə/" and "a historic" in contexts where I would use /ðiː/. --Jayron32 18:52, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

That's interesting, Jayron. My accent is mostly Buffalo, NY-based, and I always say /ʌhɪstɔərɨk/. So unlike you I use the casual pronunciation /ʌ/ before the /h/. Duoduoduo (talk) 20:37, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Buffalo's native dialect is Inland Northern American English, while New England has a different dialect: New England English. Of course, I have developed a somewhat peculiar idiolect since my childhood. My New England accent, which was full-on before I left New England at 18, and still creeps back when I get around the right kind of people, has been tempered by living away from New England for the past 18 years. I now speak General American or fairly close to it, so I was only offering the above as a single data point. --Jayron32 22:12, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Even as a kid, I followed American politics. And to this day I remember a cover of TIME about the nomination of Geraldine Ferraro as Walter Mondale's VP running mate in the United States presidential election, 1984: it read, "A Historical Decision". See TIME's archived front cover pic. (Erm, and yup, I got the "remembered" caption wrong.) --Shirt58 (talk) 09:55, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

This was discussed just last month [11] and many times in the past [12] [13]. μηδείς (talk) 18:41, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Don't know about percentages ('a historic' is in the majority I think) but it's probably going a bit far to think only a tiny aristocratic segment use 'an'. I usually use 'an historic', but then again my speech has always been a bit on the pretensious (in the US at least) side - I'll often use words such as 'quite' instead of 'really' or 'perhaps' instead of 'maybe'. AlexiusHoratius 20:33, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

• I think it's a learnèd affectation. I will say /æn hɪs'tɔrɨk/ or /ænɪs'tɔrɨk/ /ʌ hɪs'tɔrɨk/ in free variation, (and /eɪ hɪs'tɔrɨk/ as a citation form,) but I remember remarking to myself that "an historic" was odd when I first encountered it in elementary school in the Delaware Valley. The nunated forms are acquired secondarily so far as I am concerned. μηδείς (talk) 00:13, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Chinese help: How is this read?

• File:Beijing SLS Flags 4515.jpg

The storefront says "双隆盛旗亚" - The characters would be Shuāng Lo?ng Sheng/Cheng? qí yà - What would the second and third characters be read as?

Also how do I say Category:Shops in Beijing by product in Chinese ?

Thanks, WhisperToMe (talk) 20:10, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

From Googling around it appears to be Shuang1 Long2 Sheng4 ("Double Abundance"?). Note that the fifth character is actually 业/業 (ye4).--Cam (talk) 02:47, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes, the easiest way I know of for people (like me) who don't know Chinese is to put it into Google Translate, make sure the Ä toggle is on, and look below to find the pinyin: "Shuāng lóngshèng qí yà". Not foolproof, though, since sometimes a character can be pronounced two different ways and Google may not always divide the words properly. Lesgles (talk) 15:25, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Actually, it's 双隆盛旗业 (Shuāng lóng shèng qí yè, if Google Translation's transcription can be trusted). The last two characters, 旗业, are the description of their line of business - "Flags Industry /Flag Manufacturing" (formed on a common pattern seen e.g. in 林业 "forestry" etc.). Shuāng of course is "double", while 隆 and 盛 both appear to me as some of those several characters with a nebulous good meaning of sorts ("grand", "prosperous", "flourishing", "abundant", etc) - members of the same family of characters that you often see in company names, along with e.g. 丰,兴,喜,博,福， etc. Think of the entire title as "Double Acme Flags Inc." :-) -- Vmenkov (talk) 02:01, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

P.S. Here's that company's website (also in English): http://www.slsflag.com/

Language issue on the Mathematics Refdesk

Please take a look at Wikipedia:Reference desk/Mathematics#"The" calculus. The question is why does "the calculus" take an article but other branches of mathematics such as algebra, geometry or trigonometry don't. Roger (talk) 20:43, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

I think it's because 'the' calculus is specifically the integral and differential calculus (the Major-General was very good at it) - 'calculus' without the article used to have a much wider range of meaning. Nowadays the article is often dropped - but the Lambda calculus keeps it, as do other more specific topics such as the binomial theorem (...lot o' news...) AlexTiefling (talk) 22:05, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

That was asked a number of weeks ago. The answer at least in part has to do with the fact that 'calculus' means 'reckoning'. Hence, "the reckoning". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:19, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

That makes no sense at all. How does that distinguish the calculus (meaning a particular collection of mathematical methods initiated by Newton and Leibniz) from, say, the propositional calculus? As far as I can see, no one has given a remotely plausible answer to the "why" part of the question, and many of the participants simply refuse to acknowledge the descriptive basis of the question at all (the fact that "the calculus" as a fixed phrase has this particular meaning). --Trovatore (talk) 03:48, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

The intro of our article calculus says Calculus has historically been called "the calculus of infinitesimals" . So maybe (speculation here) everyone was calling it "the calculus of infinitesimals" and calling other things "the propositional calculus" or whatever, but 99% of references to "the ... calculus ..." were to "the calculus of infinitesimals", and finally people just dropped "of infinitesimals" because they thought it was obvious which calculus they were referring to? Duoduoduo (talk) 14:44, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

That rings true to me. Not sure how to check it, though. --Trovatore (talk) 19:26, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

I hope it's understood that "the calculus" is pretty much archaic nowadays. Mathematicians almost always just say "calculus". Looie496 (talk) 15:58, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Mathematicians don't talk about calculus much at all, except as an annoying class they have to teach :-). I wouldn't call the calculus archaic, exactly, at least not in the usual non-linguist's understanding of that word. More like "dated"; carries a sort of a classic feel that can come across as an affectation if used outside extremely formal contexts. --Trovatore (talk) 18:42, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

caisse

Someone can record the pronunciation of the word caisse with a Quebec accent please ? Fête (talk) 21:59, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

You already asked this, and were given good answers. Please, go to YouTube and find videos of Quebecois politicians discussing appropriate topics. AlexTiefling (talk) 22:01, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Record in Wikimedia. Fête (talk) 22:02, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Don't be so hostile, Alex. User Fête may not understand the IPA. Do you understand the International Phonetic Alphabet, Fête? The answers I gave above imply it is pronounced to rhyme with English case or to sound like cah-ess run together almost as if it were rhyming with General American "goddess" with a silent "d", or close to "kice", similar to the way you described your own username vowel being pronounced on my talk page. Tiefling's suggestion that you search Youtube is a good one. Perhaops he can find a link to offer you, rather than telling you to find one on your own? μηδείς (talk) 22:09, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

I don't understand IPA either. That's why I thought the YouTube suggestion was smart. But that wasn't my suggestion - it was made in the thread which is still visible further up this page, which the same OP started, asking the same question. AlexTiefling (talk) 22:17, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

My bad, that was Clarityfiend, might try their talk page if my explanation isn't clear enough. μηδείς (talk) 23:09, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

fête

Why Quebeckers pronounce "fight" for the word fête ? Fête (talk) 23:16, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

See Quebec French phonology. --Jayron32 23:20, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

See below: OsmanRF34 (talk) 23:50, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Nous t'avons deja dit beaucoups de fois que <<fête>> se prononce [faɛ̯t] ou [fei̯t] en francais quebecois. Tu dis que tu entends l'IPA. On ne peut pas dire pourquoi c'est vrai. C'est simplement vrai que se prononce comme ca. Il faut lire http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonétique_historique μηδείς (talk) 00:04, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Diphthongs

Why Quebeckers make diphthongs. Fête (talk) 23:23, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Language change? OsmanRF34 (talk) 23:33, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

See above. --Jayron32 23:34, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

extrême

Why the word extrême cannot pronounce as /ɛk.stʁaɛ̯m/ in Quebec French ? Fête (talk) 16:06, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

The circumflex here is purely orthographic; it does not indicate a long vowel in Quebec French. See this chapter for a discussion of this and other exceptions, which I hope will satisfy your thirst for knowledge about long ê. Lesgles (talk) 16:35, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Now that's a weird one. Why would there be a circumflex there? I don't know of any extresmus or extresmo in Latin or any neo-Latin language. --Trovatore (talk) 18:47, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Accent of Gaspésie

I want to listen the accent of Gaspésie ? Fête (talk) 21:46, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Listen here. I get about one word in 25; in Montreal, I get three out of five. Bielle (talk) 04:18, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Céline Dion

Céline Dion is French ? Fête (talk) 23:48, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Canadian. See Celine Dion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.104.5.244 (talk) 23:57, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Ethnically, she is kinda French. OsmanRF34 (talk) 00:42, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

That would make me kinda Viking, since I have ancestors from Iceland? No, she's Canadian, specifically Quebecoise. Not French. Mingmingla (talk) 01:56, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Isn't the term, Canadienne? Alanscottwalker (talk) 01:51, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Only in French. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 04:00, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

But then, in French, adjectives are not capitalized, even if derived from proper nouns, so Céline Dion est canadienne. — Kpalion^(talk) 14:18, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

(ec) She's French Canadian. Note that that article says French Canadian or Francophone Canadian (also Canadien in Canadian English or in Canadian French).... Presumably for a female the English synonym Canadien becomes Canadienne (?) Duoduoduo (talk) 14:26, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Luc Bourgeois

Luc Bourgeois is French or Quebeckers ? Fête (talk) 01:01, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Il est québécois, fr:Luc Bourgeois. Adam Bishop (talk) 01:50, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Fete, did you read the box which is heading this page? it say "You can search first. Please do this".

There is a search box on every single wikipedia page. happy searching! --Lgriot (talk) 11:29, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Pourquoi croyez-vous que ceci est un question juste pour un lieu qui discute les langues? AlexTiefling (talk) 11:43, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

accent of Quebec City

In Quebec City, the word fête is pronounced /fɛːt/ or /faɛ̯t/ ? Fête (talk) 11:27, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Pourquoi repetez-vous ces questions si similies? AlexTiefling (talk) 11:44, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

By the way, this user was banned from the French wikipedia for similar obsessive behaviour, including on the ref desk. --Xuxl (talk) 13:17, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

...and according to his page he is living in Quebec!!! a local expert you might think. Caesar's Daddy (talk) 14:09, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

C'est pas surprennant, ça. AlexTiefling (talk) 13:27, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

accent of Quebec City

I want to listen accent of Quebec City. Fête (talk) 16:06, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Might I suggest you take a stroll down to the shops and listen to the folks chatting. You are in a good place to here a quebec accent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.4.182.75 (talk) 19:01, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Angela Tong

Angela Tong speaks French with an Quebec accent ? Fête (talk) 16:19, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Pourriez-vous expliquer pourquoi vous, qui êtes québecois et francophone vous-même, nous avez demandez plusieurs questions comme ça? AlexTiefling (talk) 16:27, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Est-ce qu'on peut tutoyer? Je ne crois pas que Fête a dit qu'il parle français nativement dans sa page user. On ne sait pas que soit sa langue maternelle. μηδείς (talk) 20:18, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Toi, Medeis, je peux tutoyer, je crois. Nous ne sommes pas toujours d'accord, mais nous nous comprenons assez bien. Ce type-ci, alors, je ni connais ni comprends point. Je ne le vais pas tutoyer, sinon je recois un reponse, un mot, qui signifie q'il a lu ce que j'ai ecrit. (Et je suis desole, mais cet ordinateur n'a pas les accents si faciles que l'autre.) AlexTiefling (talk) 22:16, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Il faut lire ce qu'il m'a dit dans ma page user, Alex. Je le pense bon type. J'espere sa reponse maintent, mais je crois de ce qu'il m'a dit qu'il parle nativement le cantonais. Par ce que je ne sais pas aussi utiliser les accents avec mon ordinateur, il faut que je vous prie pardon de tout le monde, mais je n'essayerai pas de les utiliser. μηδείς (talk) 23:45, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Belgian accent

In Belgian French, the word caisse is pronounce /kɛs/ ou /kɛːs/ ? Fête (talk) 00:55, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

I know that you are blocked from editing French Wikipedia, for whatever reason, but I assume you can read French Wikipedia. All of the phonological questions you are asking can be answered by reading the articles on French Wikipedia, fr:Français de Belgique has information on the pronunciation of Belgian French. Similar articles exist on French Wikipedia for other varieties of French, so you can get more answers that way before you have to ask here. --Jayron32 01:14, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

fête

In American English, the word fête is pronounced /feɪt/ or /fɛt/ ? Fête (talk) 14:36, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Both, according to the Merriam-Webster New Collegiate Dictionary on my desk. Deor (talk) 14:39, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

muffin

In American English, the word muffin is pronounced /ˈmʌfɪn/ or /ˈmʌfən/ ? Fête (talk) 14:53, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

It could be pronounced either way, or /ˈmʌfn/. These questions are getting pretty annoying. Looie496 (talk) 15:08, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Why don't you look things up in the obvious place (in this case, a dictionary)? I propose that everyone just ignore these questions that the OP could have looked up for himself. Duoduoduo (talk) 15:47, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

October 18

asked ----> 'axed'

How does such a corruption occur? This isn't simply a difference in accent or relaxed pronunciation but a reordering of consonants. Ankh.Morpork 00:28, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

It's called metathesis, and in this word it's ancient. Even in Old English the word is attested as both ascian and acsian; the "ax" variant was accepted in literature through the 16th century. So when a modern-day person says "axed" for "asked", it isn't some newfangled "corruption", but a variant form that's over a thousand years old. Angr (talk) 00:33, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Well, a re-invention maybe. It's only ever used in the UK by those wishing to imitate black Americans. See Aks; "Aks," a metathesis of "ask" in African American Vernacular English" Alansplodge (talk) 00:45, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

I believe it is common in Caribbean Englishes, where it is not standard but not particularly looked down on, and has entered Multicultural London English from there. Itsmejudith (talk) 20:31, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

I won't say that's not attested, but I have only ever heard it from working class white people in the NYC and Philly metropolitan areas, and Hispanics, never once in person from a Black. μηδείς (talk) 02:45, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

I hear it often from highly-educated U.S. blacks (especially slightly older ones), and occasionally from Southern whites like myself. --Orange Mike | Talk 02:56, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Clarifying that some folks use it all the time, others not at all; I seldom find a given individual drifting across the boundary, unless code switching is going on. --Orange Mike | Talk 03:01, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

You mention that some highly educated blacks, especially slightly older ones, use it. I've heard Jesse Jackson the elder saying it. Duoduoduo (talk) 14:33, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

But Mike was talking about highly educated people. μηδείς (talk) 17:56, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Medeis, I'm doing you the favor of straining to assume that you and I differ drastically in our definitions of "highly educated"; because the other interpretation of your remark is not even remotely acceptable. --Orange Mike | Talk 20:19, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

I think Jackson's article is clear enough about his educational history. μηδείς (talk) 20:39, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Oh, I just figured out what you are implying I might be implying. No. μηδείς (talk) 03:49, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Just ask Asterix what he thinks of asterisks. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 01:40, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

It might just be easier to say "ax" and "asterix". The former is strongly associated with blacks in America. The latter I've heard many times without regard to race, color or previous condition of servitude. Which reminds me, a black comic once referenced that well-known black usage with this joke: "When Lizzie Borden went to the maid and said, 'Can I borrow the carriage tonight?', the maid said, 'I don't know - you'll have to ax your parents.'" ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:17, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Tee hee.

People saying "aks" for "ask" is all too common in Australia. (And saying "asteriks" for "asterisk", too - but that's only in those cases where the speaker actually knows the name of that funny thing, which would not be universal, thanks to our brilliant education system; no offence, HiLo48). It has zero to do with anyone imitating African Americans or anyone else, in my experience. More to do with sloppy speech patterns picked up from their environment. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 03:29, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes, good one, Bugs. μηδείς (talk) 04:54, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Purely anecdotal, but "aks" (as /aːks/, not /æks/) is common in Australian Aboriginal English. Looking for refs right now.--Shirt58 (talk) 08:56, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Not disputing that, Shirt, but I think the bigger picture is it's something more likely to be found among people of socioeconomically disadvantaged background, not a race thing per se. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 17:59, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

I must confess I've never heard ax anywhere, in my 40-odd years in Australia. Maybe I should get out more often. I first came across it the other day in Chaucer, where I think "ask" does not exist at all. IBE (talk) 22:58, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

I dunno about that Australian Aboriginal English claim. In the movie Australian Rules, about a culture clash between Aboriginal and European Australians, it was one of the European characters who actually gained a nickname based on his pronunciation of aksed. HiLo48 (talk) 22:56, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

This is pretty widespread. I knew an English chap from a Sikh background who always used these pronunciations. The TV show Futurama uses this early on - it's mentioned that the pronunciation has become standard by the show's 3000AD timeframe, and it's done fairly consistently for the rest of the show's run. AlexTiefling (talk) 08:15, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

As mentioned in the article metathesis that Angr has already linked to, "wasp" is another word which has been unstable in exactly the same way over the centuries. --ColinFine (talk) 17:48, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

I wonder why we never hear about people who riksed their lives. Or maybe we do. I haven't. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 18:01, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Because the metathesis of "ax" and "wopse" is no longer productive, and possibly never was. Risk didn't enter the English language until the 1660s, by which point people were no longer switching their /k/'s and /p/'s with their /s/'s. And I don't know if they did so in any words other than ascian ~ acsian and wæsp ~ wæps even in Old English. Angr (talk) 19:57, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Metathesis seems to occur rather often only in single instances rather than always regularly. Consider chthonic which comes from PIE *dhghom, cognate with OE guma and NE goon and (bride)groom. μηδείς (talk) 20:13, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

However, PIE *tk and *dhgh quite regularly became kt and khth in Greek, not just in that one word. In Irish, -ts-, -ps-, and -ks- all metathesized to -st-, -sp-, -sk- in pretty much all words where they occur (though not in all dialects), and in Hebrew, prefixing hit- to a verb beginning with s, š, or t͡s causes metathesis to hist-, hišt-, and hit͡st-. (I'm not sure what happens with verbs beginning with z; hizd- perhaps?) So sometimes metathesis is a regular sound change. But probably not in Old English. Angr (talk) 21:24, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Our metathesis article says that t-z -> zd in Hebrew, and van de Merwe, Naudé and Kroeze's A Biblical Hebrew Reference Grammar implies it, though without giving an example. --ColinFine (talk) 21:36, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

To walk down Dizengoff Street is lehizdangef (though that's kind of a joke word)... AnonMoos (talk) 21:57, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Fromkin and Rodman gives Hebrew reciprocal sibilant infinitives prefixed with lehit as regular targets for metathesis. There are indeed many mutated and metathesized Greek T/K roots. Ichthys compares quite nicely with PEA Tik-, see Tiktalik. μηδείς (talk) 22:42, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

My curiosity is aroused: What is this prefix hit of which you speak? —Tamfang (talk) 06:02, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

The mark of the Hebrew "hitpael" verb stem, often (but not always) with a reflexive or reciprocal meaning. Becomes mit- in the participle, and it-, yit-, tit-, nit- in various persons and numbers of the imperfect/future. What Wikipedia has from the modern Hebrew point of view is at Modern_Hebrew_verb_conjugation#The_binyanim... AnonMoos (talk) 11:53, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

You could risk your life in a rixe (French word), or on a Rixe. —Tamfang (talk) 06:02, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Languages in Singapore

Singaporean people speak English or Mandarin ? Fête (talk) 19:02, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

See "Languages of Singapore". Both English and Mandarin are official languages of Singapore, and many people in Singapore speak either or both of the languages. — Cheers, JackLee ^–talk– 19:27, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

There are so many ethnicities (and by implication spoken languages) in Singapore that they formed a thriving football league. My father has a 3rd Division Runners-up trophy from the early 1960s (he played for the Royal Army Pay Corps team). {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 84.21.143.150 (talk) 10:26, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

"minute" pronounced: / mɪnʌt /, rather than: / mɪnɪt /. Is there any English variety having this attribute?

HOOTmag (talk) 19:50, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

According to my copy of the Longman Pronunciation Dictionary there is no variety of English in which the word "minute" (in the sense "60 seconds") is pronounced [mɪnʌt]. It does list [mɪnət] used outside the US as a non-RP British variety. Gabbe (talk) 21:08, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

But the LPD only lists Southern British and General American pronunciations. There are lots of other English varieties not listed in LPD. Angr (talk) 21:17, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

I can't think of a variety of English in which I would expect that pronunciation. --ColinFine (talk) 21:38, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

What exactly is the question here? All I see are a header and a signature. Who has asserted there is such a pronunciation of either form? Why not ask who pronounces the word /mi:nu:t/? Please give a reference to a published source. μηδείς (talk) 22:12, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

On my browser, the header reads "minute" pronounced: / mɪnʌt /, rather than: / mɪnɪt /. Is there any English variety having this attribute? Gabbe (talk) 06:56, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Correct. I'm asking whether there are dialects that have an /ʌ/ for the "u". HOOTmag (talk) 07:53, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

HOOTmag -- In the majority of English phonetic transcription conventions, the symbol [ʌ] refers to the vowel as in "duck" occurring in stressed syllables. If there's one thing which holds across almost all English dialects, it's presumably that the second syllable of "minute" (as a noun meaning 60 seconds) is unstressed... AnonMoos (talk) 08:10, 19 October 2012 (UTC).

The vowel /ʌ/ may occur also in unstressed syllables, as in "unknown", "adult" (in British English when stressing "adult" on the first syllable, and also in US English - that may pronounce the second syllable of "adult" - with an /ə/ as well as with an /ʌ/ ). Further, the Scots don't have a schwa (e.g. they pronounce "sofa" with an /a/ at the end, and also pronounce "hurt" like /hʌrt/). Anyways, I still don't know whether or not there are dialects having an /ʌ/ for the "u" in "minute". HOOTmag (talk) 11:53, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Unknown and adult are not examples of true unstressed syllables (comparable to the second syllable of "minute"). If no meaningful context is provided, your question is semi-pointless. See further below. AnonMoos (talk) 03:09, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

My guess is the OP is attempting to ask whether there are dialects that have a schwa in minute [mɪnət] as opposed to the schwi [mɪnɨt] which the OP is presumably more familiar with (as am I). Lsfreak (talk) 03:36, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Nope, I'm asking about an /ʌ/ rather than about an /ə/. HOOTmag (talk) 07:53, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

In dialects which lengthen unstressed [ɪ] to [iː] before another vowel and at the ends of words, there's sometimes a tendency to neutralize remaining unlengthened [ɪ] to [ɨ], or even in some cases to [ə] -- since very few contrasts between different words would be lost by such a merger. However, in RP-type dialects, where there is no such unstressed [ɪ] to [iː] change, and all non-pre-vowel "r" has vanished, there's a tendency to strongly preserve the unstressed [ɪ] vs. [ə] distinction, presumably because if the distinction were to be merged, there would be no contrast in pronunciation between "cities" and "sitters" etc. etc. ([sɪtɪz] vs. [sɪtəz] in RP, [sɪtiːz] vs. [sɪtərz] in American). AnonMoos (talk) 08:05, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

I guess you're referring to User:Lsfreak. If you're referring to me, then please notice that I've been asking about the /ʌ/ rather than about the /ɪ/ or the /ə/. HOOTmag (talk) 11:53, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

I was explaining that among quasi-standard-English dialects, it's only those varieties of speech that show what Wikipedia calls "happy-tensing" where unstressed [ɪ] commonly takes on a vowel quality similar to that of [ə] (or in some cases actually neutralizes with [ə]). To get to [ʌ] you would presumably have to go through [ə]. AnonMoos (talk) 03:09, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Distinction between people's and peoples'

I'm second guessing and confusing myself about the correct form of the word as part of a formal title, People's/Peoples' Liberation Army, and in a generic description: "the army is a people's/peoples' militia with only a small professional leadership corps". Is there in fact a difference when it's used in a title versus as an ordinary adjective? My instinctive feel for my own language has let me down, help! Roger (talk) 20:54, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Well, we have People's Liberation Army, which is the army of a single people. Were it to have been the army of several peoples, then it would be the Peoples' Liberation Army. Does that help? The distinction is between (a) people and many peoples (or a race/ethic group, and several races/ethnic groups, to get away from the use of the word people). Does that help? --Tagishsimon (talk) 20:59, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Another way of putting is that the word "people" can be both singular and plural. Singular, meaning a race or nation, as in "The Mexican people is one with a proud history". And plural, meaning more than one person, as in "I saw three people walking past". In the first sense, there are many peoples (including the Mexican people, the Romanian people, the French people and hundreds of others). See Churchill's A History of the English-Speaking Peoples. He knew a thing or two about the language. But an army belongs to only one people. The possessive of people is people's. If there were an army that somehow managed to belong to more than one people, then it would have to be Peoples'. But that's unheard of, in my experience. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 21:25, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Most countries are populated by multiple peoples and there are many examples of a single people being divided amongst multiple countries. In my experience armies belong to countries and a one-to-one correlation between peoples and countries are quite rare (off the top of my head, except for tiny island countries, they exist only in Europe). Thus it is perfecly possible for Peoples' Armies to exist. Roger (talk) 12:19, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

I think both Tagishsimon and JackofOz are confusing two things. It is true that when people is used as a countable noun meaning 'tribe' or 'nation', it follows the normal rules and people's and peoples' would indicate singular and plural possessives. But when people is a plural (the far more common case) it follows the rule of other suppletive plurals such as men and women, and forms its possessive as people's. I suggest that a people's republic and a people's army are always of the people = masses not of the people =tribe. --ColinFine (talk) 21:46, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

David Peoples' film credits or Peoples' return policy or indigenous peoples' plight may all properly utilize the second choice, but in most other cases, the first is correct. Something like "freedom-loving people's' manifesto" can go either way. Clarityfiend (talk) 23:54, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

I asked my native Mandarin speaking wife about what the Mandarin name actually means -- The Liberation Army of the Persons (people = persons) or The Liberation Army of the Nation (people = nation). She says it's literally the former, although with a tinge of the latter meaning as well. Duoduoduo (talk)

You should note that the full name of the military force in Chinese is literally the "Chinese People's Liberation Army" (and not, for example, the "PLA of the PRC"). So although the "People's Liberation Army" and "People's Republic of China" both use the Chinese word for "People", they are used in slightly different senses. For the army, it can be read as "the army for the liberation of the Chinese people", while the state is more likely to be read as "the republic that belongs to the people, and is ethnically Chinese". --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 15:58, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Language of Haiti

Generally, Haitian people speak Haitian Creole or French ? Fête (talk) 21:22, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

According to our article Haiti#Languages, French "is spoken by all educated Haitians, is spoken in schools, and is used in the business sector. It is also used in ceremonial events such as weddings, graduations and church masses", while Haitian Creole "is spoken by virtually the entire population of Haiti." So generally, Haitian people speak Haitian Creole, and a lot of them speak French as well. Our article doesn't mention this, but I suspect there may also be something of a post-creole continuum among many Haitians, where they can slide between pure Creole and more or less standard French without there necessarily being a sharp boundary between the two. Angr (talk) 21:35, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) It probably breaks down along class lines. People from working classes probably speak more Haitian Creole, and people in upper classes speak more French, although there is likely a LOT of code switching going on in Haiti, where the same person in different social situations speak different languages. Also, many creoles are in a Dialect continuum with the "official language", so that you aren't going to find sharp dividing lines between the two languages in Haiti. That is, you'll find people speaking everything from Metropolitan French to French with a little creole thrown in, to a mix between the two, to mostly Creole to all Creole. This is called a Post-creole continuum, and the article specifically cites such a continuum existing between Haitian Creole and French in Haiti. --Jayron32 21:31, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Also see diglossia. --ColinFine (talk) 21:48, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

October 19

How to say 'or' in colloquial language?

If you want to use the exclusive 'or' and/or the inclusive 'or' but still sound informal, how do you do it? OsmanRF34 (talk) 00:40, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Either/or is not "formal"--and you just used the inclusive or in your question. μηδείς (talk) 01:51, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

The point here is that we constantly use inclusive and exclusives 'or's, but without specifying them explicitly, although that's sometimes necessary. 'and/or' sounds stupid when speaking. OsmanRF34 (talk) 11:58, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Not among us edycated folk it don't. In any case, in spoken English it's usually clear from the context. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:51, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

If you mean an inclusive or, say "A or B or both"; if you mean an exclusive or, say "either A or B but not both". I'm not sure how colloquial that is, but at least it's clear. Looie496 (talk) 01:55, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

OK, that's what I wanted.

Spanish help

How do you say "Each child had over 10 teeth drilled and given silver caps" (caps on teeth) in Spanish? I'm doing work on es:Small Smiles Dental Centers to discuss the history of the clinics when they were operated by the DeRose family. I wrote the section about the DeRose family at Small Smiles Dental Centers on here, and am now translating that section into Spanish WhisperToMe (talk) 14:15, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

I would say A cada niño les taladraron más de 10 dientes, dándoles tapas de plata. But I am getting tapas from google translate, so I am not sure if that is the proper noun to use here. μηδείς (talk) 17:58, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks! I'll wait around and hear about the Spanish term for caps - You could say coronas since they are stainless steel crowns. WhisperToMe (talk) 18:50, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes, "tapas" is not the term for them, and AFAIK it is indeed "coronas" (see here and here on es.wiki) — Frankie (talk) 19:05, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

(ec) Yes, use coronas dentales instead of tapas, see http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corona_(prostodoncia) μηδείς (talk) 19:07, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

And don't just say dándoles coronas de plata without the dentales or people will be imagining the kids each got a silver tiara. μηδείς (talk) 19:09, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, guys! The last one... "The board also reported Edward and Michael DeRose and Mueller to two national databases that serve as clearinghouses for information on actions filed against dentists. The DeRoses and Mueller filed a complaint asking the board to have their names removed." - I'm not sure how to do these two WhisperToMe (talk) 19:52, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, my Spanish is coming out half French right now. What board? I need the broader context--please provide a direct link to the section or source, not just the relevant page. μηδείς (talk) 20:25, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

The Colorado Board of Dental Examiners WhisperToMe (talk) 22:30, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Who on their lunchbreak eat tapas and drink Coronas. And then clean their teeth thoroughly. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 23:15, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Llol! μηδείς (talk) 23:30, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

That was a good one, Jack! It's welcome too, since after doing research on the topic of "Small Smiles" I felt really depressed WhisperToMe (talk) 00:38, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

I forgot.. Here's the direct link to the relevant source on HighBeam (cited as "vogrindisc" on the English article: Vogrin, Cary Leider. "Dentists move to clear reputations, Three file complaint to remove names from disciplinary database." The Colorado Springs Gazette. May 20, 2004. Retrieved on October 3, 2012. Available at HighBeam Research.): - If you don't have a Highbeam account, I'll send you an e-mail WhisperToMe (talk) 00:23, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Chinese help

In Karate Kid there is a character named Liang. I uploaded a section of a screenshot to my Flickr - http://www.flickr.com/photos/30646153@N03/8103165243/in/photostream What are the Chinese characters? WhisperToMe (talk) 17:31, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

That definitely says more than just Liang, because it's three characters, which means three syllables. The first one looks like 梁, which is the surname Liáng. The middle one looks like 子 (zǐ) and is thus presumably the first syllable of the person's given name. Somebody else will have to help you with the third. Angr (talk) 00:43, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks! Isn't the third one 浩? WhisperToMe (talk) 00:49, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Looks like it. If so, then I guess Liáng's given name is Zǐhào. Angr (talk) 01:08, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

an English word to describe this thing?

This is not a cauldron though it has two rings. What could be another word?--117.253.198.143 (talk) 17:33, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Brazier? --Jayron32 17:58, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

It's more like a casserole that goes on top of a brazier. I don't see why you couldn't just call it an uruli. You can also compare it in shape to a shallow krater, although those were used for serving wine. One might also search Category:Ancient Greek pot shapes and see http://www.penn.museum/documents/publications/expedition/PDFs/11-4/Scutella.pdf for a patina which is where we get our word pan from. μηδείς (talk) 19:17, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Looks like somebody lit a fire under a birdbath. Trying to catch and boil squab in a single step ? :-) StuRat (talk) 20:41, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Does this even make sense?

OK. I am just making up this sentence, but theoretically, would it make sense if I were to use the verb "save" as a noun? In real life, I never really heard it being spoken this way, but still, I am wondering if they are still understandable or too florid/poetic.

Example 1: I have saved $10.00 in my piggy bank.

Example 2: My piggy bank, which stores $10.00, is my salvation when I become needy.

Example 3: My piggy bank, which stores $10.00, would become my saviour when I become needy.

Yes, I know that I am personifying an inanimate object in the third example. I think the next example would be better:

Example A: The firefighter saved the little girl's life by rescuing her from the burning house.

Example B: The firefighter rewarded the little girl salvation from the fire in the house.

Example C: The firefighter was the saviour of the little girl in the burning house.

People do use salvation and saviour as nouns, right? The root word is save. All I am doing is changing the suffixes. 140.254.121.34 (talk) 19:43, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

"Save" is a verb, not a noun (except in colloquial expressions, as when, for example, a goalkeeper "makes a save"). In the piggy bank context the usual noun would be "savings", and in the second example, "rescuer". The sentence about "rewarded the little girl salvation" makes no sense at all. The other sentences make logical sense, but "saviour" and "salvation" are not normally used in that way.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 19:54, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

It would really help people to answer these overly complex questions if you would at least number and letter your examples. μηδείς (talk) 20:06, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Then, I can use the Spanish term then? El salvador means saviour. Salvar means to save. So, salva- means to save. And -tion means the state of being or the action of doing something. Add salva- and -tion together, and it would supposedly mean the action of saving someone/something or the status of being saved. When I was thinking of "rewarded the little girl salvation", I was thinking of "the status of being saved", so that it would read "rewarded the little girl with the status of being saved", thereby treating her salvation as a status. The action of saving someone or something would deserve another example: The firefighter's salvation of the little girl proves that he/she is a man/woman of merit. 140.254.121.34 (talk) 20:22, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Example B doesn't make sense. The others all do, but they're not the most natural way of expressing the ideas. It's important to note that in English, the meaning of a word is dependent on its derivation - words with virtually identical roots can have quite divergent meanings if they arrive in English by different roots.

'Salvation' in English usually has religious connotations - although a metaphorical usage is fine. 'Savings' on the other hand is entirely secular. I think (now I consider it) that 'salvation' is connected to the Latin for 'health', salus - like 'salud' in Spanish. Conversely, there's a German word for 'salvation', 'Heil', which is linked to the English 'health' - and it should be easy to see that 'heil' meaning 'hail, greetings' is like the English 'hail', and also parallels the Spanish 'salud' for 'cheers'.

'Savings' on the other hand has its roots only in English - it's a later development from the long-established English verb 'save'. AlexTiefling (talk) 22:11, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

It might be helpful to point out that save has (at least) two very different meanings. In the sense of "rescue from danger or mistreatment" the nouns saviour and salvation may be used, though they are most often used in a religious context. In the senses of "keep and amass money" and "pay less than one might have", these nouns are not used, and would be liable to be misunderstood if you tried to. --ColinFine (talk) 22:32, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Doubt <-> Question

I've noticed on a number of occasions that some of our customers used the word doubt in an unusual way. They often say "I have a doubt about...", or "my doubt is that...". It seems that they are using doubt where I, in my BrEng, would use question. So, my doubt is this: Is there a form of English which has doubt and question as cognates (for what it's worth, I suspect the answer might be InEng), and is this an influence from another language or maybe a re-emergence of a former usage? - Cucumber Mike (talk) 20:13, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

This, or something like it, is actually a very old usage. I'm not going to try to pin down the details, but up until at least the 1700s "doubt" was often used to mean "fear" or "suspect". Wiktionary shows that meaning, marking it as archaic. Looie496 (talk) 20:32, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

I would say they are using it to mean "uncertainty". I suspect that this manner of speaking might be more common in people coming from cultures where modesty is highly valued. That is, you having an uncertainty implies that this is some shortfall on your part, while "I have a question" does not, and "You haven't explained X" downright puts the onus on the other person. StuRat (talk) 20:37, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

I see this all the time in InEng-- as soon as I saw the section heading I knew what this question was going to be about. However, I don't think that doubt and question are synonyms, even for the speakers in question. You never "ask a doubt". In my observation, if a speaker is asking about something for which they have no prior knowledge, such as someone's name, it is still a "question". But if the speaker is asking about something they have some context for, like if they are trying to clarify some piece of text they have read, it is a "doubt". Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 20:42, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes, when you say you have a doubt/uncertainty, this implies that you would like to ask a question, but doesn't say so explicitly. StuRat (talk) 00:14, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

You say "in an unusual way", but to me there is nothing at all unusual about "I have a doubt about..." or "my doubt is that...". However, in neither case is "doubt" exactly synonymous with "question". I am a BrE speaker too. 86.160.220.225 (talk) 21:29, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Sometimes people say "I have a doubt about ... " or similar words, and that's done as an invitation for others to respond. It is not a question in a formal sense, but it may as well be.

It's like newsreaders who cut to a reporter in the field; they'll start talking to them without asking a question, either explicitly or by voice tone: "Hello, Tracey. The Freedom Commandos have launched yet another attack". If I were Tracey out there in the battlefield, I'd say "Oh really, Jim? Do go on. I thought I was telling the story here". But what Tracey actually does is treat it as a question like "Tell us more about this attack by the Freedom Commandoes". -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 22:06, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

I suspect 86.160 has not encountered the form of question Cucumber Mike is talking about, but like Orange Suede Sofa I have many times seen it from speakers of Indian English. See http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/2429/can-doubt-sometimes-mean-question for discussion. --ColinFine (talk) 22:39, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

This usage doesn't strike me as wholly foreign to American speech. I am quite certain that at least twice I have had professors or employers give me syllabi or policy statements with the suggestion that if we have any doubts we should approach them during office hours. I took this to mean "uncertainties/questions", not crises of faith. The terminology used here http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/2429/can-doubt-sometimes-mean-question strikes me as perfectly familiar. And I have never had an Indian boss or teacher. μηδείς (talk) 00:10, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

If someone said, "Let me ask you a doubt" (instead of "let me ask you a question") that would seem baffling. But not so with: "True, without doubt" (for "True, without question"); or "I have no doubt that . . . " (instead of "I have no question that . . .). Alanscottwalker (talk) 01:12, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

I concur with Orange Suede Sofa, as my experience working with Indians is that it's in common usage. But I don't recall any of them saying "Let me ask you a doubt", it's typically, "I have a doubt." It's kind of quirky way of saying, "I have a question." Maybe they're taught that "questioning" someone is less polite than "doubting", although in American English it would be the reverse. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:18, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

However, EO indicates that "doubt" has been a synonym for "question" for a long time.[14] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:21, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

What does EO stand for, please, Bugs? μηδείς (talk) 18:16, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

EtymOnline.com, apparently —Tamfang (talk) 18:44, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Sorry Bugs, but I don't see where it says that doubt means question at the link you posted. Can you give a quote? - Cucumber Mike (talk) 19:52, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

""from L. dubitare "to doubt, question, hesitate, waver in opinion" (related to dubius "uncertain;" see dubious)..."" ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:12, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Doesn't that refer to the verb ("I doubt what you say is true" = "I question whether what you say is true")? I'm not sure that I've yet seen a source that gives an etymology for doubt the noun being the same as question the noun, as in I have a doubt vs I have a question. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 12:30, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

So, I take it the formulations in the dock is are, "I have a doubt, [followed by question]" (eg. I have a doubt, is his real name Abu?), or is it "I have a doubt, [followed by statement that the speaker intends as a question but which the hearer takes as a statement] (eg. "I have a doubt his real name is Abu." But the reader thinks the speaker is saying, "I doubt his real name is Abu." So, the speaker is expecting an answer and the hearer does not know whether to answer, or ask, "Why do you doubt?") It seems some of the miscommunication maybe tied to whether asking questions is more polite than making statements, or that questioning is less polite (importuning) but that 'putting the doubt' in the speaker's mind seems less aggressive. On the other side, the hearer does not know if they are responding to rhetoric or to question. Alanscottwalker (talk) 11:24, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

My range of experience with that Indian expression is rather narrow - I've only ever heard it in reference to project specifications. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:36, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Medeis's link http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/2429/can-doubt-sometimes-mean-question gives this interpretation of its use in Indian English: doubts in their mind about their understanding. I think that when an Indian (or possibly someone else) says "I have a doubt" they mean "I have a doubt in my mind as to whether I understand this." Duoduoduo (talk) 19:05, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

That would make total sense. It's a deferential way of asking about something that doesn't make sense to them. A face-saving approach to a situation. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:45, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

See #would usage in english below for an example of what this question is about. --ColinFine (talk) 21:45, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Hence we will not say that Greeks fight like heroes, but that heroes fight like Greeks

According to Battle of Greece, this is a quote from Winston Churchill. But what is the name of the literary trick he is employing by reversing "heroes" and "Greeks"? I am sure I've seen other examples of the same technique in Churchillian rhetoric, and in puns, although right now I can't think of any. Can anyone help fill me in? ManyQuestionsFewAnswers (talk) 22:43, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Antimetabole - another example being "Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country". Mikenorton (talk) 22:59, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Or the Archie Bunker version of the Golden Rule: "Do unto others, before others can do unto you". :-) StuRat (talk) 00:28, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Chiasmus. Matt Deres (talk) 22:14, 20 October 2012 (UTC) Never mind; Mikenorton's answer is better. Matt Deres (talk) 22:16, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Top answers thanks. Chiasmus is interesting, but definitely antimetabole was nail-on-head. There is an A-B-B-A pattern to it, so presumably most antimetaboles are chiasma? ManyQuestionsFewAnswers (talk) 22:30, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

It appears that antimetabole is a particular, more restricted, type of chiasmus [15]. Mikenorton (talk) 22:40, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

That link is particularly interesting - antithesis can sometimes be chiastic and the comparison with antimetabole is helpful. "It would seem convenient to use the term chiasmus for the criss-cross order and correspondence in meaning or syntax of two pairs of words, whether or not involving word repetition, and restrict antimetabole to the narrower meaning of a pair of words repeated (usually with some morphological change) in reverse order". But another description is more confusing for me - apparently antimetabole can be "a large epanados". Can someone explain? Would Churchill's Greek example be an epanados too? ManyQuestionsFewAnswers (talk) 00:16, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure if I find this link [16] more helpful or more confusing - it may help answer your question. Mikenorton (talk) 15:09, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

October 20

Dramatic monologue

I was asked what are the primary characteristics of dramatic monologue and was given 5 choices. One of them is "The reader identified with the listener addressed in the poem" --> Which I don't understand what is the statement even saying? Please explain to me what is the meaning of it and point out to me in the way that anyone can understand. Thanks!184.97.240.247 (talk) 08:03, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

'To identify with' someone is to be able to put yourself in their position or role. So it's saying that the poem is written as though it's spoken to some (possibly specific person); the reader is able to put themselves in the position of that person.

To give a concrete example: The anthem 'O vos omnes' says (in translation)

All you who pass by upon the road -

Is it nothing to you?

Behold and see

If there be any sorrow

Which is like my sorrow.

These lines are from the Old Testament, and have been adapted for a Christian context several times. I would identify with the listener ('you who pass by upon the road') if the poem made me feel like a person who has been forcibly reminded of another's suffering, and turned back to consider it.AlexTiefling (talk) 08:12, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Compound word, but different

I'm looking for a term (which may not exist) for those compound words which are not just two nouns. NOT words like: Lighthouse or Bedroom. Rather, words like: altogether, always, albeit - I know that I chose three that include 'all' but my interest is for any words formed out of 2 (or more!) words that aren't just simple object-type of nouns. Is there a term for such words, or can someone point me to a list of such words?199.94.68.91 (talk) 14:56, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Basically you're asking for a term for a word composed of multiple morphemes, or perhaps of multiple lexemes. I don't think linguists have a standard term for those concepts, but "complex word" is sometimes used. Looie496 (talk) 17:04, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

No term whatsoever ? StuRat (talk) 16:20, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

You are talking about compound words with bound morphemes as opposed to only free morphemes. I have never heard of a single term for this, but maybe Looie has a link to his complex word suggestion. μηδείς (talk) 18:13, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

The article on English compound just classifies them according to the word classes of their components (including pairings of modifier and head such as adverb-preposition, preposition-preposition, etc.), but I saw no special word for those which are not noun-noun compounds. We do have a separate articles on compound verb and compound modifier too. ---Sluzzelin talk 18:36, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Chinese help

What is the Chinese in http://www.beijing-hyundai.com.cn/images/lxwm_02.jpg ? I'm trying to see if this is describing a corporate office WhisperToMe (talk) 20:46, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

It says 销售本部, "Sales main office" or "sales HQ". --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 22:50, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks! WhisperToMe (talk) 00:20, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

IPA

How is the name "Conley" pronounced in English? --77.12.231.144 (talk) 21:25, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

In American English, at least, it would be like "Khan-Lee", stressing the "Khan", the "o" like saying "ah" when the doctor asks you to open up. IPA? I don't speak IPA. But if you know how it's pronounced as-is, you could theoretically figure out the IPA. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:43, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. I would like to add the IPA to an article and it's a pretty cryptic knowledge. --77.12.231.144 (talk) 21:56, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

[kɒnlɪ] or [kɒnliː] according to quasi-standard conventions (see footnote 24 at Help:IPA for English for the variation)... AnonMoos (talk) 22:06, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Thank you so much! --77.12.231.144 (talk) 22:26, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

English Midlands: My friends who are Conleys use a very short o. I don't speak IPA either, but it's basically the word "con" + "lee". --TammyMoet (talk) 09:28, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

As a Londoner, I don't have the cot-caught merger, and I agree with TammyMoet. The first syllable of 'Conley' is very much not like 'Khan' to my ears. AlexTiefling (talk) 08:52, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Can someone explain to me what's difficult about going through Help:IPA for English and looking for each sound in "Conley" in turn? If I knew why people were finding this tricky I might have some idea about how the page could be improved. Marnanel (talk) 09:11, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

October 21

would usage in english

hi sir! i am trying to learn english correctly.i need your help to learn good english. my doubt is on would usage. "wish+subject+would can be used to express actions which the subject can control i.e the actions he could change if he wished." can you give some examples and explanation on the above structure? i hope you help me — Preceding unsigned comment added by Phanihup (talk • contribs) 02:48, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

"I wish he would learn to leave the toilet seat down" is OK, "I wish I would eat less so as to lose 5 pounds" sounds a bit funny, though not blatantly ungrammatical... AnonMoos (talk) 05:50, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

"I wish he would" means "I want him to, even though he doesn't", whereas "I wish I would" does indeed sound strange, though grammatically correct. When talking about one's self in this case, "I wish I could" would be more appropriate - the reasoning being, if you wish it, but have not accomplished it, then you have failed to do it so far, therefore the conditional tense of 'can' (='could') should be used, IMHO. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 07:14, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

As KageTora says, "I wish he would" means "I want him to, even though he doesn't". For contrast, "I hope he will" means "I want him to, and maybe he will". So "wish" refers to something that does not happen or will not or is very unlikely to happen, and "would" is used in that kind of situation; "hope" refers to something that may or may not happen, and "will" is used in that kind of situation. Duoduoduo (talk) 14:48, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Just a token

I presume that one of the more famous English short poems is Moondog's

The only one who knows this ounce of words is just a token

is he who has a tongue to tell that must remain unspoken.

As token means many different things in English, but by definition an icon of something valuable, I'm not able to figure out what "...just a token" wants to express and ask for help. --KnightMove (talk) 06:00, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

'Token' can also mean something almost valueless, as in 'a token gesture' - something which is done just to show you can. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 07:19, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Even using your specific definition, "just a token" is not the real thing of value itself. So, if that is the whole poem, it would suggest that speaking is of little value in the circumstances described (although poetry often has and is meant to have a personal meaning for the reader, so what's important is how you interpret it). Alanscottwalker (talk) 12:03, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Also, if it helps, "token" in New York City, at the time this author was writing was probably most popularly used for a small metal coin, which you bought and used instead of money to ride the subway. (It represented money in a limited use). Alanscottwalker (talk) 12:13, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

The terms "token" and "icon" both mean a sign or symbol.[17][18] Neither word necessarily suggests something of great value. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:57, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

"Token" here refers to a "love token", a keepsake. A lover gives his beloved a token inscribed with a poem. This poem is self-referential and seems to be about complicity. It is very clever in its simplicity. Itsmejudith (talk) 16:33, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks you all so far, this is great help! Judith: Where do you know this interpretation from? --KnightMove (talk) 17:31, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

It's just my reading, but I can't see any other meaning of token working here. If you Google "love token" you will find some explanations, but there is not much in the article that love token redirects to in WP. A bit in our article wedding token. There are other references to love tokens in poetry. Itsmejudith (talk) 21:08, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

More Chinese help

As the name of a building, is 津蒙大厦 read as "Jīnméng Dàshà" or does it use a different "meng"? WhisperToMe (talk) 11:45, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Do you know anything about the history of the building? If it refers to some kind of relationship between Tianjin and Inner or Outer Mongolia (as seems likely in the absence of any other context), then it should use the "Meng" in Mongolia, which is pronounced with the third tone "Měng" in Mandarin. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 13:42, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Google search of the name seems to confirm that initial suspicion: the building is used by the "国航天津内蒙古分公司北京培训中心", the "Air China Tianjin-Inner Mongolia Branch Company, Beijing Training Centre". --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 13:43, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes, it's a building that is associated with Air China. It houses two hotels too. Thanks for the clarification! I have also been trying to find the official English name for "津蒙大厦" - I am trying to see if it would be "Tianjin Inner Mongolia Building" or something like that??? - BTW this is the building File:JinmengHotelBuildingShunyi.JPG WhisperToMe (talk) 14:29, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Plebiscyty zyczliwosci i niecheci (need PL>EN)

This is from the title of an article by Janusz Korczak and Ada Poznanski, published in 1934 in a journal, Polskie Archiwum Psychologii, about a survey done on the socializing of institutionalized children. I gather it refers to an opinion poll or survey about affinity vs. antipathy. How would this best be translated into English? -- Thanks, Deborahjay (talk) 13:44, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

I don't speak Polish. But Google translate gives "plebiscites of kindness and dislike". Plebiscyty is obviously the plural of plebiscite, or "survey". Zyczliwosci and niecheci seem to be in the genitive ("of") case. The word i is simply "and". The word nechciem is "I dislike" in my dialect, so niecheci would seem to be "of dislike" or "of not liking". From context your "survey [of] affinity [and] antipathy" seems spot on. But you might try a Polish help desk page. μηδείς (talk) 04:27, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Would "Survey of likes and dislikes" be a suitable idiomatic English translation? AlexTiefling (talk) 08:50, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Why do the Republic and People's Republic of China use different terms for Republic?

I've always wondered what the significance was of the Republic of China being The Mínguó of China, while the People's Republic of China is The (Rénmín) People's Gònghéguó of China. Which means that the PRC and ROC use different terms for the word Republic, and I have wondered what the significance of that is.

The transliteration of 中华人民共和国 People's Republic of China is Zhōnghuá Rénmín Gònghéguó . While for the 中華民國 Republic of China it is Zhōnghuá Mínguó . Why isn't the PRC called the Zhōnghuá Rénmín Mínguó or vice versa?

In no other language is the word Republic different in a People's Republic as opposed to a regular Republic.

What is the significance of Mínguó vs Gònghéguó? --Gary123 (talk) 15:03, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Wouldn't that have the character 民 occurring twice in a row? -- AnonMoos (talk) 15:21, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

That is not a problem in Chinese and happens quite often. In any case, lots of countries are called 'Democratic Republic of [blah blah]' even though 'democratic' and 'republic' mean exactly the same thing. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 16:52, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

It does? The UK would be surprised to find that their government was a Republic, or that it was not Democratically elected. The terms do not coincide. --Jayron32 19:49, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Well, I am sure we would be, having a pretty reliable voting system. Do you have references for this? As far as I know, it's a constitutional monarchy. See Politics of the United Kingdom. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 06:06, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

You appear to have misread or misunderstood Jayron's response. You claimed that "democracy" and "republic" were the same thing. Jayron said that the UK is a democracy but not a republic. You reply that it is a constitutional monarchy with a voting system, which appears to me to be nothing more than a restatement of Jayron's response. What do you mean? Marnanel (talk) 09:15, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

According to my Chinese wife, Mínguó and Gònghéguó were simply synonyms. The Nationalists had to pick one of them for their name, so they (presumably randomly) picked one; then the Communists needed one for their name, so to set themselves apart they picked the other synonym (and added People's to it). Duoduoduo (talk) 15:35, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Minguo means "People's Country" and hence 'Republic'. "Gongheguo" means 'Country [of People Working] Together' and hence 'People's Republic' - essentially a more communist sounding name. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 16:39, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

It's not just PRC/ROC. North Korea (DPRK)/ South Korea (ROK) have exactly the same difference, 共和国 vs. 民国, in the word for "republic". DPRK is 朝鲜民主主义人民共和国; ROK is 大喊韩国。 （Incidentally, they use different words for "Korea" as well, 朝鲜 vs. (大)喊). -- Vmenkov (talk) 23:21, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

民国 was a Chinese translation of Republic and 共和国 was a Japanese translation. As the Japanese terms of Western concepts and things (translated or coined in Meiji period; see Wasei-kango) spread to other Sinosphere countries, 共和国 replaced 民国. The names of ROC the ROK (ROK's name comes from Provisional Government of Republic of Korea) were establishd in 1912 and 1919 respectively while PRC and DPRK were establishd after the Second World War. --Kusunose 04:24, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Arabic and Russian help

How do you say "Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the People's Republic of China headquarters" in Arabic and Russian?

The Russian name of the ministry is "Министерство иностранных дел Китайской Народной Республики", the Arabic name is "وزارة الخارجية لجمهورية الصين الشعبية". Thanks, WhisperToMe (talk) 16:18, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

• Штаб-квартира like ru:Штаб-квартира ООН which officially are Центральные Учреждения ООН. Russian MFA's HQ are called Центральный аппарат МИД России. So Центральный аппарат Министерства иностранных дел Китайской Народной Республики may be the best variant. Other alternatives are Центральный/Главный/Головной офис/учреждения/управление, it's difficult to choose.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 18:51, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
  • Thank you! WhisperToMe (talk) 20:52, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
    • Though I'm still in doubt, maybe I've made a mistake. Центральный аппарат is more about internal structure. Of course it's possible to call both the head body and the building where this body is sitting with one word (a kind of metonymy). I've not found an English name for the main building of the Russian MFA. But speaking about a building, Центральное/Главное здание/офис is more appropriate.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 22:34, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

I don't speak Arabic but if the UN HQ is called مقر الأمم المتحدة, most probably the Chinese MFA's HQ is مقر وزارة الخارجية لجمهورية الصين الشعبية. Though maybe the article al- before "ministry" الوزارة is needed in this case, but I'm not sure.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 22:59, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Lyuboslov: The first item of a ʼiḍāfa construction can take neither the article "al-" nor nunation. Therefore, I'd think مقر وزارة الخارجية لجمهورية الصين الشعبية is correct. --Theurgist (talk) 23:20, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm not arguing but I've spoken not about the very first noun maqarr "seat", but about the second wizaarat "ministry". §12.4 of "Arabic. An Essential Grammar" (2007) says that it (the second) may take the article. But §12.9 says that in a complex idaafa only the last word can take the article. I wonder why then the translation of the Chinese MFA has four articles.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 01:01, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

It's two sentences in construct state linked by "li-" ("in"). There are only three "al-" articles. In the second sentence the last word is an adjective describing China, so they both get the definite article. Adam Bishop (talk) 01:11, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Ah, yes, I haven't noticed the absence of alif. Indeed, al- before wizaarat is not needed. Thanks!--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 01:21, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Любослов Езыкин -- when you see a long sequence of "al-" prefixed words in Arabic, it's usually adjectives and/or appositional forms. In an A-al-B idaafa construction, an al-prefixed adjective following it can modify either A or B (though the meaning or the number/gender form used will often exclude one of the two as the modified, leaving no ambiguity). AnonMoos (talk) 02:00, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Clarifying theoretical matter: A complex idaafa is an idaafa where either the first or the second item is itself an idaafa. That's why only the last word in a complex idaafa can take the article. --Theurgist (talk) 02:02, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

In A-B-al-C, I think that [A-[B-al-C]] is the usual interpretation, and anything else would be out of the ordinary. However, there are some complications to allow a conjoined phrase (A-and-B) to appear as the first member of an idaafa... AnonMoos (talk) 03:22, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, guys! For Commons:Category:International relations of China I would like to know the Russian and Arabic for "International relations of the People's Republic of China - For relations with Taiwan (Republic of China), see category:Cross-Strait relations". - There are no articles on the Arabic and Russian wikipedias about "International relations of China" or about "Cross strait relations" so I don't have a reference for that. WhisperToMe (talk) 00:41, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

• Added.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 01:15, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
  • Thanks! All I need is the Arabic :) WhisperToMe (talk) 02:16, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
    • العلاقات الدولية لجمهورية الصين الشعبية Wrad (talk) 04:22, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Asian names

When something in English refers to a Japanese person, their name is generally reversed to the Western order (e.g. Hideki Tojo), but Chinese names are usually left with the family name first (e.g. Mao Zedong). Why is this? --128.42.153.5 (talk) 22:16, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Until other respondents manage to give you satisfactory input, you might want to take a look at the #Name order section of the Personal name article. --Theurgist (talk) 23:14, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Japanese name#Japanese names in English and Chinese name#Chinese names in English tell some of the story WhisperToMe (talk) 00:41, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

As an aside, it is also interesting that Chinese people also give themselves 'Western' names (and sometimes silly ones, like 'Apple' and 'Pizza'), but when they use them, the surname comes after it, instead. Japanese people don't use Western names. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 06:00, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

October 22

Were / was?

"If Facebook were a country,..." or "If Facebook was a country,...". Which one is correct? 117.226.219.230 (talk) 08:20, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Under traditional rules, "if" governs the subjunctive mood, so "were" is undoubtedly correct. But most people don't even know what the subjunctive is these days, let alone apply it, so there's a new grammar at work, and most people would use "was". Those who use "were" in that example are in danger of being regarded as old fogies.

Letting the people decide these things seems pretty radical and republican, even revolutionary, to me, I must say. Not like my day, when we were told what to think, what to feel, what to say, what job to do, whom to marry, and how many children to have. It was so much easier that way, really. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 08:37, 22 October 2012 (UTC)