Talk:League of Nations mandate

Modern mandates

I would be in favor of reformulating the idea of UN Mandates to meet modern needs. There are a number of countries which are so misgoverned that the world should do something to help. You can make your own list, but I would suggest perhaps Haiti, Congo, Ivory Coast.

Just a simple outline.

Administering mandates should be done by UN members who are not permanent security council members.

The mandates should be administer to insure:

 A: to insure Efficient government
 B: To eliminate corruption at all levels
 C: To establish health care institutions including schools for training health care workers.
 D: To establish an educational system
 E: To provide training and support for native businesses
 F: To negotiate specific aid projects on behalf of the mandate
 G: To establish a competent police force free of competition

In administering these mandates the administrators must insure that the mandate is protected from exploitation by outside parties.

I would enjoy the comments of others to this idea.

Howard McCarthy Lakeport, CA odessaguy@yahoo.cpm

The UN Charter allows the Organization to appoint trustees or to establish municipal governments and supervise territories directly as it did in Kosovo and East Timor. The UN also adopted a decision to govern Jerusalem and the surrounding area directly. harlan (talk) 17:58, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Reply

Although this is not the place to discuss it, I agree that some parts of the world are misgoverned: for instance, the United States has the disgusting habit of killing its own criminals... My point being, who is to decide on what countries are misgoverned? Flooding countries with humanitarian aid is as bad as we see: corruption, inefficiency, lack of local development. And if the UN concluded that a particular country was ungovernable, terraformation (aka genocide)?

Besides, isn't your idea already in place in Kosovo?

But it's funny, though: when I was a teen I wrote a sci-fi short story that adressed that, calling them "Blue areas".

Ricardo monteiro 11:43, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

Nice to meet you. Notice that I said that mandates would go to countries that are not permanent members of the Security Council.

I am not sure how to go about it, but if there was a way it would be of great benefit to countries such as Haiti, I'm sure you will agree.

Howard McCarthy

Well, you still don't set the criteria to make a country eligible. Take a look at democracy like you and I see it: you vote in a bipartisan system, I have plenty of parties to choose from; your president is the leader of the cabinet, my president can sack the prime-minister if he behaves badly; and so on.

Are any of our countries less democratic than others? Would you consider Venezuela democratic? And Cuba? Yet in the first case the leader was freely elected and in the second case there are undeniable social benefits. Where to draw the line in order to deploy "Blueaucracy"?

In my opinion, we have to let people get there by themselves.

We in Europe fought for 1000 years until slowly democracy, peace and good living conditions became the standard. Shouldn't we allow Africa to do the same, first of all by letting them draw new frontiers instead of the ones we imposed?

The United Nations system was a major improvement in international relations - it was really the first one since the end of papal sovereignty - and sure needs improvement, but not by occupying territories with refurbished arguments used since the Romans.

Ricardo monteiro

Just a few comments on your last note.

A. There are essentially two common types of democratic governments, a presidential system and a parliamentary one. Both types have many variations, but both allow the citizens to chose who will run the government and the basic policies the government will adapt. As to the number of candidates one may choose from, we also have many choices.

B. I agree that Hugo Chavez is the democratically elected President of his country. Fidel Castro of course is not. Cuba is a hell hole for most Cubans. They have to wait until he dies before any change can occur.

C. For many poor countries, mostly African, I don't believe that they need to indure another 1,000 years of bad governments, pverty, illness and backwardness because Europe did.

My original note was simply an idea put forward to elicit other ideas on how the rest of the world might hasten their progress.

Howard

I was asking: is election enough to proclaim that a State is democratic? All countries have elections (not sure about North Korea) but we obviously cannot compare elections in the US to those in Cuba.

Venezuela is the old Democracy dilemma: can an elected official overturn the freedom he stood for? As far as I know, he's making some undemocratic changes, always claiming the people his with him. Of course, freedom doesn't give you the right to end freedom.

As to Africa, I don't think they must wait 1000 years, but I believe the more we keep this kind of "Live Aid" help instead of opening our markets to their produces the more corruption will undermine those societies, in part because in most cases we're dealing with artificial entities created by European powers in the 1800s.

My country - who got there first - dealt only with local chiefs, that's why we had a hard time in the Berlin conference. You probably don't know, but Portugal and the UK (allies since 1385) fought for the control of southern Africa and there was a British ultimatum when Portugal presented a map with a claim for the territory between Angola and Mozambique.

Ricardo monteiro

Palesine and Transjordan as separate mandates

Elsewhere in Wikipedia and the internet it is reported that there was just one Palestinian mandate including present day Israel, Israeli controlled territories, and Jordan (plus a little of Syria). It is implied (but as far as I can tell never explicitly written) that the League of Nations never split the Palestinian mandate.

Did the League of Nations create a separate mandate for TransJordan, or was there only one class A mandate for the whole of Palestine? --Jsolinsky 01:15, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I am going to modify the text in accord with the better referenced British Mandate of Palestine article. Jsolinsky 19:29, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

The original mandate was Transjordan. Transjordan was subdivided in 1948, with the division being 90% Arab (Jordan), and 10% Jewish (Isreal), which was agreed to by all parties at the time. The Arabs reneged on the agreement the day after the division went into effect by invading in (and losing) in the 1948 war. 76.226.66.120 06:30, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

The Palestine Mandate was a system of multilateral administration, not a geographical area. The protocol of the Mandate itself allowed for separate administrative regimes in the eastern and western districts (aka Western Palestine/Cis-Jordan and Trans-Jordan). Technically speaking, the mandate was a self-imposed limitation on the sovereignty of the conquering or occupying powers. It did NOT originate within the League of Nations. The protocol of the Mandate was drafted and established by the principal Allied Powers, aka 'the Great Powers', at the San Remo Conference and in the Treaty of Sevres. The well-being and development of the peoples of the conquerored or occupied territories 'formed a sacred trust of civilisation', which was not merely the responsibility of the League of Nations. Securities for the 'performance' or oversight of that 'trust' were included in the letters of the Covenant (of the League). The advanced nations handled their responsibilities as mandatories on behalf of the League.

In terms of the mandate itself, the 'historical Palestine' of old was reduced to a borderless geographical expression. The Great Powers reserved the right to 'fix the borders' however they saw fit. The preamble of the Mandate reads:

'Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have agreed, for the purpose of giving effect to the provisions of Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations, to entrust to a Mandatory selected by the said Powers the administration of the territory of Palestine, which formerly belonged to the Turkish Empire, within such boundaries as may be fixed by them'

You have to suspend your sense of disbelief to even accept the notion that after killing or wounding 40 million people, the Great Powers were best suited for the task of civilizing the so-called backward peoples. harlan (talk) 05:28, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Germany

Weren't the Free City of Danzig, the Memelland and the Saarland mandates as well? Känsterle 21:32, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Somebody says "no" [1].--Matthead 23:55, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

There were certain attempts to impose international regulations on the status of these territories, but it wasn't done through the mandate system, so they aren't related to this article. Newyorkbrad 21:47, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Connect to UN Trusts

I linked to the UN Trust article thinking it would explain what happened to Palestine, Iraq, etc after 1946 and found that article only seems to cover the class 2 and 3 mandates. I have no clue as to what should be there or how to structure it which is why I was here. Mulp 03:22, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Palestine/Jordan, Iraq, and Syria/Lebanon never entered the U.N. trusteeship system (Iraq, Syria, and Lebanon were granted full independence before the U.N. was formed, and Palestine's status was, to say the least, contested). For further information you can see the articles on those respective mandates/countries. Newyorkbrad 21:54, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Norway offered mandate areas?

I have a vague memory of reading as a child that Norway was offered one or two mandate areas after World War I due to the importance of the Norwegian merchant fleet. As many of you may know Norway was referred to as "The Neutral Ally". Norway however supposedly turned this down an used the goodwill to secure sovereignty over Svalbard. Can anyone confirm this? - Nidator 17:43, 23 February 2007 (UTC) -

League Mandates Did NOT Automatically Become UN Trusts

The US Senate refused to ratify the Covenant of the League of Nations. The so-called 'Irreconcilables' completely rejected the proposed system of Mandates as an illegitimate rule by brute force. see Classic Senate Speeches and the denunciation of the Mandates, starting on page 7

The UN Charter addressed the 14 Senate reservations which had prevented the adoption of the former Covenant.

The Protocols of the Yalta Conference stipulated that future discussions and agreements would be required before the old Mandates were sanctioned or placed under UN trusteeship:

'Territorial trusteeship:

It was agreed that the five nations which will have permanent seats on the Security Council should consult each other prior to the United Nations conference on the question of territorial trusteeship.

The acceptance of this recommendation is subject to its being made clear that territorial trusteeship will only apply to:(a) existing mandates of the League of Nations; (b) territories detached from the enemy as a result of the present war; (c) any other territory which might voluntarily be placed under trusteeship; and (d) no discussion of actual territories is contemplated at the forthcoming United Nations conference or in the preliminary consultations, and it will be a matter for subsequent agreement which territories within the above categories will be place under trusteeship.

Articles 73-85 of the UN Charter were an attempt to eliminate the old colonial Mandates, not preserve them. New agreements were negotiated on a case-by-case basis:

'Article 75 The United Nations shall establish under its authority an international trusteeship system for the administration and supervision of such territories as may be placed thereunder by subsequent individual agreements. These territories are hereinafter referred to as trust territories.' see UN Charter Chapter 11 and UN Charter Chapter 12

The Palestine Question was placed before the General Assembly for a recommendation under Article 10 of the Charter, the League of Nations Palestine Mandate itself was never actually placed under any UN trusteeship agreement. see QUESTION OF PALESTINE, A/286, 3 April 1947 harlan (talk) 08:21, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Palestine Mandate

I removed a statement from the article which mentioned that there was some dispute regarding Palestine's status as a Class A Mandate ( because it was not mentioned in the text of the Mandate itself).

Article 22 (8) of the Covenant only permitted the Council of the League to specify the class of a mandate in those cases where the Supreme Council of the Allies had not already done so themselves. Lloyd George classified the entire Mideast as Class A on January 18, 1919 during the Peace Conference at the Quai d'Orsay in Paris. The Arab mandates were already designated Class A before they arrived at the League Council. see http://history.sandiego.edu/GEN/ww1/1919League2.html

The biggest delay resulted from the argument between Italy and France over Syria: here is a snippet from the New York times archived headline:

ITALY HOLDS UP CLASS A MANDATES; League Council Has Failed to Meet Her Views Regarding Palestine and Syria. BULGARIA GETS A REBUFF Her Appeal for Aid to Check Border Forays Is Sent Back to theBalkan Powers.

Copyright [expired], 1922, by The New York Times Company. Special Cable to THE NEW YORK TIMES.

July 20, 1922, Thursday

Page 15, 860 words

LONDON, July 19.--The A mandates, which govern the British occupation of Palestine and the French occupation of Syria, came today before the Council of the League of Nations. http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9B0CEFDF1239EF3ABC4851DFB1668389639EDE

The Memo approving the draft mandate hardly mentions anything other than the end of the dispute between Italy and France.[2]

harlan (talk) 09:34, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Citations for Class A Mandate Status

See Papers relating to the foreign relations of the United States, The Paris Peace Conference, 1919 Volume XIII, Annotations to the treaty of peace between the Allied and Associated Powers and Germany, signed at Versailles, June 28, 1919: 'The mandates under which the various territories have been administered were submitted by the mandatory governments to the Council of the League of Nations in accordance with paragraph 8 of article 22. The terms were reviewed by the Council, in some cases revised on its recommendation, and finally approved by it. The following table gives the pertinent data for each territory:

"A" Mandates

Palestine

Trans-Jordan

Syria and Lebanon' [3]

On November 22, 1947 the United States expressed agreement with the statement made by the Chairman of Ad Hoc Sub-Committee 1 that the plan presented by the Sub-Committee was legal under the Charter. There was nothing in the Charter which prevented an immediate transition from a Class A mandate to independence. Foreign relations of the United States, 1947. The Near East and Africa Volume V [4]

Class A mandates consisted of the former Turkish provinces of Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, and Palestine. "Class A mandate." Encyclopædia Britannica. 2009. Encyclopædia Britannica Online. 14 Nov. 2009 http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/120113/Class-A-mandate

The International Court of Justice explained that "49 ...The responsibility of the United Nations in this matter has its origin in the Mandate and the Partition Resolution concerning Palestine (see paragraphs 70 and 71 below). This responsibility has been described by the General Assembly as "a permanent responsibility towards the question of Palestine until the question is resolved in all its aspects in a satisfactory manner in accordance with international legitimacy"

In its brief legal analysis of the legal status of the territory, the International Court of Justice said that "70. Palestine was part of the Ottoman Empire. At the end of the First World War, a class 'A' Mandate for Palestine was entrusted to Great Britain by the League of Nations, pursuant to paragraph 4 of Article 22 of the Covenant" see Legal Consequences of the Construction of a Wall in the Occupied Palestinian Territory [5] harlan (talk) 06:11, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

The “Mandate For Palestine” was not a Class “A” Mandate

The document "Palestine Royal Commission Report" doesn't speak about "Class A" mandate for Palestine. It describe clairely the mandate for Palestine as a "Special Regime" : Meantime the "special regime" under wich Palestine was to be governed had not yet taken precise and legal form. (Palestine Royal Report, July 1937, Chapter II, p. 28, paragraph 29). You can download this document at this adress : http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/88A6BF6F1BD82405852574CD006C457F --FireJeff (talk) 19:45, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

This is weak sauce. The fact that one particular document does not call Palestine a class A mandate is not evidence of anything. john k (talk) 20:30, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

The "Mandate for Palestine" (in 1922) never speaks about "class A" for Palestine. And this is the only document which could legaly define a class A mandate (for Palestine), but it doesn't! Furthermore, the "Palestine Royal Commission Report" (1937), an historical and official document, clarifies this point and proves that the mandate for Palestine was not a "class A" mandate (but a "special regime"). This is the analysis of Eli E. Hertz (specialist of the arab-israeli conflict). Anyway, deforming the truth is not a sincere proof. --FireJeff (talk) 22:12, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

It sounds like the Jewish Internet Defence League has been here by throwing Eli Hertz of all the world's unreliable heavily biased individuals in as a specialist reference. That the referred to text never mentions "class A" in particular is of no relevance unless every single other mandate text has such an inclusion. The Palestine Royal Report, moreover, which except for Eli Hertz is a source this nonsense section heavily rests on has no legal power whatsoever. It is a report and not a decree or law. All in all the whole section can be deleted for the only ones claiming it was not a Class A mandate are people like Eli Hertz and they do it based on texts which clearly doesn't say what they pretend, or like in the case of the Peel Commission, are only recommendations and not enacted law or orders.//Gotipe (talk) 14:09, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Please, respect the rules : "Do not remove this message until the dispute is resolved. (October 2012)"

Futhermore, personnals "point of view" are not allowed in wikipedia. Your argumentation quotes no secondary sources : we don't need your antisionism opinion.

Besides, if the mandate for Palestine was a class A mandate, it is clear that the official and historical document "The Mandate for Palestine" (in 1922) would speak about this status. But it is not the case : then, Arabs can not claim that the mandate gives them the right to create an arabe national home in Palestine. This "right" was not include in the "Mandate for Palestine", where the Mandatory should provide a (jewish) national home for jews (not for arabs) in Palestine. The document "Palestine Royal Commission Report" (in 1937) clarifies this point and proves that was not a "class A" mandate (but a "special regime").

I don't know what you don't (want to) understand about this!? It is so easy to deform the truth, but writing a lie one million times doesn't make it more true! --FireJeff (talk) 17:04, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Then why do you refer to Eli Hertz' personal opinion that "there's much to gain from..."? "we don't need your antisionism opinion." Excuse me? "Arabs can not claim that the mandate gives them the right to create an arabe national home in Palestine." What? "It is so easy to deform the truth, but writing a lie one million times doesn't make it more true!" You really haven't adressed one single of the issues I pointed out with your single Peel Commission source (Which is a report, not a legal instrument) + Eli Hertz' personal opinions. An omission of an explicit reference in the Mandate text doesn't really mean the opposite and can only indicate so if it's included in all other mandate texts. Do you sincerely think Eli Hertz is the best source to insert here? The Curzon memo from 1920 clarifies the actual contemporary meaning of a "Jewish national home": "while Mr. Balfour’s Declaration had provided for the establishment of a Jewish National Home in Palestine, this was not the same thing as the reconstitution of Palestine as a Jewish National Home–an extension of the phrase for which there was no justification". You must learn to differ between "National home IN Palestine" and "National home OF Palestine". This idea that the "national home" reference in the preamble would legitimise a Jewish state has always been based on massive historical revisionism. Because what does the text say afterwards? Oh right, it says the "it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine". Moreover, when has something written in the preamble alone of a document has any actual legal bearing? To summarise, you only base your opinion on Eli Hertz' opinion and the omission of explicit references in two texts (Which clearly doesn't justify making up your own interpretation), one of which isn't a legal document, and something you've reinterpretated that's only mentioned in the preamble anyway.//Gotipe (talk) 10:56, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

You confuses opinion and analysis. Your argumentation is just your opinion, because you quotes no secondary sources. On the other hand, I justifies my argumentation with the analysis of Eli E. Hertz, specialist of the israelo-arabe conflict. Hertz bases his analysis with legals documents, specially the "Mandate for Palestine" (1922), and the "Palestine Royal Commission Report" (in 1937).

The first document legalizes the jewish rights in Palestine (to create a jewish national home): this document recognises civil and religious rights for Arabs in Palestine, but not a political right (refering to Jewish self-determination as an emerging polity). The second document is an official report (for the mandatory) which explains why the first document never mentions a "class A" status (or paragraph 4 of the article 22) for Palestine (because this mandate was a "Special Regime").

Furthermore, others mandates (like Syria or Lebanon) speak explicitly about paragraph 4 of the Article 22 (of the Covenant of the League of Nations), which meens these mandates had really a class A status. If you read the text of the "Mandate For Palestine" (1922), the paragraph 4 is not quoted : so, Palestine was not a class A mandate.

Finally, no UN resolution can change this fact (even when arabs contries want to deform the truth), because the UN charter (article 80) ricognises even today the legality of the "Mandate For Palestine" (in 1922), that is the jewish right to create a national home in Eretz Israel (occidental Palestine). --FireJeff (talk) 15:23, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

Eli Hertz is known for his extreme pro-Israeli bias and is not a proper source for Wikipedia.. The mere fact that you continue to fill out your already substance-less post with such nonsense as "arabs contries want to deform the truth" speaks for itself about your own extreme bias. Eli Hertz "analysis" is based on his own opinions, including his statement that "There's much to gain". Why do you think such an extremely biased opinion has any place on Wikipedia? Moreover I have already explained how he misinterpretates documents and moreover why neither of your two documents are valid in the way you use them. The first document does NOT refer to Jewish self-determination as a political right, merely a "national home", subsequently reinterpretated by people. Nowhere does it refer to the creation of a Jewish state. The second is a mere report which was subsequently overwritten by later reports, and the Curzon memo clarifies why the Balfour Declaration's wordings made even Balfour himself back about it's possible reinterpretation by Zionists at the time. Finally the reference to a "national home" (Not a Jewish state) is in the preamble and not the text itself. Again the omission of paragraph 4 does not mean it is not a Class A mandate, it just means the explicit reference to paragraph 4. it still refers to the hwole of article 22 or parts on several occassions which is more than enough except when one is hellbent on historical revisionism. It if meant otherwise it would explicitly state "Shall NOT be seen according to the fourth paragraph of article 22". "Special regime" can mean anything and clearly did not mean Jewish state, it is ridiculous to even assume that considering the future Arab state in Palestine too. I see this is futile as you seem to be another historical revisionist hellbent on propagating Eli Hertz conspiracy website and editing all palestine-related articles into a certain quite obvious bias, as Wikipedia frequently suffers. //Gotipe (talk) 20:13, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

See Harlan's comment in the previous section. Also, from the Encyclopaedia Britannica article on League of Nations mandates:

"Class A mandates consisted of the former Turkish provinces of Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, and Palestine. These territories were considered sufficiently advanced that their provisional independence was recognized, though they were still subject to Allied administrative control until they were fully able to stand alone. Iraq and Palestine (including modern Jordan and Israel) were assigned to Great Britain, while Turkish-ruled Syria and Lebanon went to France. All Class A mandates had reached full independence by 1949."

    ←   ZScarpia   19:03, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

Well, why do you think your antizionism opinion would have any place on Wikipedia? You said before that the "mandate for Palestine" never speaks about the creation of a "Jewish National Home", that is a "Jewish State". But, article 2 of the document clearly speaks of the Mandatory as being: "responsible for placing the country under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment of the Jewish national home". This mandate recognises "the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine and the grounds for reconstituting their national home in that country". A "Jewish national home" (or a "national home for the Jewish people"), quoted 5 times in the document, means a Jewish State or a State for the Jewish people. What don't you understand about this fact? Furthermore, this mandate never speaks about a right for Arabe people to have a "national home" in (occidental) Palestine (just in Transjordan)!

Finally, the legality of this mandate is still valid today, because the article 80 of the UN charter explains that "nothing in this Chapter shall be construed in or of itself to alter in any manner the rights whatsoever of any states or any peoples or the terms of existing international instruments to which Members of the United Nations may respectively be parties". That means the Jewish right to have a national home in Palestine is recognised since 1920, with the San Remo conference, and no UN resolution can alter this right. --FireJeff (talk) 23:10, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

It is funny because you are accussing me of "antizionist opinions" when this itself is your mere opinion of me, as is that that would be relevant to Wikipedia when so many others seem to agree with me with only biased conspiracy theorists like Eli Hertz having a completely different opinion. "means a Jewish State or a State for the Jewish people." No it does not. Where does it say Jewish state? Furthermore it doesn't say "Not a Class A mandate" either, indeed it firmly refers to Article 22 as is expected, but I geuss you can't help yourself going on about some "antizionist" conspiracy against your beloved Eli Hertz. The "national home" means Jews should be allowed to emigrate to Palestine and have a community there alongside existing communities. "this mandate never speaks about a right for Arabe people" No, they say the already existing communities should have the same rights as they had before, both civil and religious. Geez it is bisarre to see you spout what can only be seen as "kick all arabs out" in 75% of your text. Nothing in the UN Charter can alter the fact that the Jews have a right to a community in Palestine indeed. There's no mention of any State of Israel. While I have come with facts (Curzon memo expl etc) and shown the actual interpretation of wordings back then, you have only provided your personal opinions ("It means jewish state cus I say so"), reinterpretation from Eli Hertz and still not explained why such nonsens as "There's much to gain..." fits in a Wikipedia article like there's some kind of conspiracy riled up against him and "truth".//Gotipe (talk) 00:48, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Nonsense! The "Mandate for Palestine" speaks clearly about a "Jewish national home", for "the development of self-governing institutions". It said later that "the Zionist Organization" will be the "appropriate Jewish agency [...] as may affect the establishment of the Jewish national home". The purpose of the Zionist Organization is clearly to create a Jewish state for the Jewish people in Eretz Israel (Palestine).

Futhermore, the Council of the League of Nations explains clearly that the Balfour's Declaration recognises the right of the Jewish people for "reconstituting their national home in that country" [which was the old Kingdom of Israel]. The mandatory (Peel Commission) and later the United Nations (182 resolution) proposed plans of Palestine to create a "Jewish State" and an "Arabe State" (because of the arabs violences, specially the massacres in Hebron against the Jewish population) : this proves to you that this mandate (for Palestine) was created to facilitate the self-determination of the Jewish people in Palestine, for "reconstituting their national home" in Eretz Israel.

The purpose of "Mandate for Palestine" was to "put into effect the declaration originally made on November 2nd, 1917 [Balbour's Declaration], by the Government of His Britannic Majesty, and adopted by the said Powers, in favour of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people", which confirmed international recognition of the right of Jewish self-determination in Palestine.

This means that arabs and jewish doesn't have the same right in Palestine : a national and political right for the Jewish people (to "reconstituting their national home" in Palestine, that is a Jewish State), civil and religious rights for Jewish and non-Jewish communities (Arabs...) in Palestine. --FireJeff (talk) 14:24, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Did you notice that I provided a source saying that the Mandate for Palestine was a Class A type?     ←   ZScarpia   15:22, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes, from the Encyclopaedia Britannica. But Eli E. Hertz explains this nonsens : Many assume that the “Mandate for Palestine” is a Class “A” mandate, a common but inaccurate assertion that can be found in many dictionaries and encyclopedia...

Futhermore, he explains later that the "Mandate for Palestine" and the "Palestine Royal Report" proves that Palestine was not a class A mandate, but a Special Regime. --FireJeff (talk) 17:26, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Gotipe, to answer your question : Why the "Mandate for Palestine" speaks about "Jewish National Home", and makes no allusion to a "Jewish State"?

One reason why no public allusion to a State was made in 1922 was the same reason why no such allusion had been made in 1917. The National Home was still no more than an experiment. Some 16,000 Jews had entered palestine in 1920 and 1921. The Arab population was about 600,000. It would be a very long time, it seemed, before the Jews could become a majority in the country. Indeed, as late as 1926, a leading Zionist stated that there was "still little propspect of the Arabs being overtaken in a numerical sense within a measurable period of time". It was not till the great rise in the volume of Jewish immigration in the last few years that the prospect of a Jewish State came within the horizon. In 1922 it lay far beyond it. --FireJeff (talk) 19:03, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

In light of the sources that Harlan gave earlier, I think that you need more than Eli Hertz's opinion that the Mandate for Palestine wasn't a Class A type. The wording of the Palestine Mandate may be different from the two which are indisputably Class As, but does that have to mean that the Palestine one isn't a Class A too? Perhaps the correct route would be to indicate that the Palestine Mandate is normally/often included in the group of Class As, but sometimes treated as a special case, on its own?     ←   ZScarpia   22:08, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

That would be one way to do it but somehow I think this fellow is quite relentless since he'll see al such compromises as an attempt on "truth" (By Eli Hertz). Now Eli Hertz has a wellknown extreme bias in this, his own conspriacy website is called "mythsandfacts.org" and has often been used by people intent on making sites like Wikipedia suffer certain wellknown bias edits. Look at his text, nowhere does he provide a factual answer to the "Jewish state" question. He just repeats Eli Hertz' personal opinion and his own opinion of why no state was mentioned. Indeed his obsession with "arab violence" speaks for itself. No bear in mind, for the mandate classification topic at hand, none of this matters, nobody is interested in Mr FireJeff's opinion about Arabs, yet almost all of his text consists of it. Furthermore, time and again have I tried to explain how the Peel Commission is simply a report and not a legal document. Not only does it have no legal bearing due to it's type, it's also overwritten by subsequent reports and was itself produced in 1937, almost two decades after the mandate classification when the political climate was completely different. The 1920 Curzon memo is the best non-legal document to use to see clarification in the wording of the Balfour text. As you can see, the "FireJeff" account simply repeats it's own re-interpretation of "Jewish national home" without actually basing it on another valid source that speaks for his point. He continues to draw his own conclusions and back it up by the ramblings of Eli Hertz which, ironically, most probably was the source of his conclusions in the first place.//Gotipe (talk) 23:36, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

@ZScarpia: The "Palestine Royal Report" explains that the paragraph 4 of the Article 22 (of the Covenant) was not applied by the mandatory. This document gives some arguments to justify why the "Mandate for Palestine" didn't violated the paragraph 4 (added recently). Futhermore, the definition of "Class A" mandate is based of the application of this paragraph 4. Because this paragraph was not applied by the Mandatory in Palestine, and not quoted in the document "Mandate for Palestine", it is clear that Palestine was not a Class A mandate, even if a lot of dictionaries and encyclopediae said the opposite. --FireJeff (talk) 23:43, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

@Gotipe: The "Palestine Administration Reports" are legal documents which were made every years by the Mandatory Power to the League of Nations. The "Palestine Royal Report" (1937) explains the situation in Palestine, and the "Mandate for Palestine" according to international laws. Futhermore, this document is "a little bit" more truthful that your Curzon memo (which is was not added in the "Mandate for Palestine", in contrary of the Balfour Declaration!), and contemporary dictionaries or encyclopediae. --FireJeff (talk) 23:54, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

"Boundaries of Modern Palestine, 1840-1947" (2004, Routledge Curzon Studies in Middle Eastern History) - Gideon Biger: On page 94, in a section describing how the southern boundary of Mandate Palestine was fixed it says: "In the special concluding meeting with many participants it was suggested that a ‘C-type’ mandate (undeveloped areas – unlike the ‘A-type’ status that was about to be given to the rest of Palestine) would be given to the Negev triangle. This because it too was an area that had belonged to the Ottoman Empire prior to the war."     ←   ZScarpia   00:27, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

Good input ZScarpia, and as for that FireJeff guy, the Palestine Royal Report has no higher value of "truthfulness" than the Curzon memo. It has no legal effect at all, it's a report which was overwritten by the Woodhead Commission. Another of your mentioned Palestine Administrative Reports seem to be the June 1922 White paper which says: "the terms of the [Balfour] Declaration referred to do not contemplate that Palestine as a whole should be converted into a Jewish National Home, but that such a Home should be founded in Palestine." again emphasizing my repeated point. And the idea that it's "more truthful" than the Curzon memo is based again on your opinion which is of no value here. The Royal Report wasn't added to the mandate either, however the Curzon memo perfectly well explains and even refers to Balfour himself, the wordings of the declaration. I think you simply do not understand what type of document a report is. Anyway it's clear a vast majority of reputable sources stand by that it's a Class-A mandate, only Eli Hertz who is known to reject anything not fitting his extreme in absurdum narrative, stands like a perpetual naysayer in denial.//Gotipe (talk) 12:32, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

Like I said before : The "Palestine Administration Reports" are legal documents which were made every years by the Mandatory Power to the League of Nations. The "Palestine Royal Report" is one of these documents.

The Curzon memo had and has no legal value according to international laws, because this memo was not included in the Mandate for Palestine (on April 24 1920, during the San Remo Conference : which incorporated the Balfour Declaration), and was not in the document the "Mandate for Palestine" (on July 24, 1922).

The first White Paper was written to forbid jewish immigration in oriental Palestine (named later Transjordan). Whatever, this "paper" was written (on June 1922) before the document "Mandate for Palestine" (July 24, 1922) to limit the "Jewish National Home" in the occidental Palestine. This document never mentioned political and national right for Arabs in occidental Palestine (this right was recognised just in oriental Palestine, named later Transjordan).

Finally, your documents have no legal value today according to international laws, contrary to the "Balfour Declaration" (April 24, 1920), the "Mandate for Palestine" (July 24, 1922) and the "Palestine Royal Report" (July 1937).

PS: I think it would great to add your sources (dictionaries, encyclopedias...) in that paragraph : "Many assume that the “Mandate for Palestine” is a Class “A” mandate..." --FireJeff (talk) 14:53, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

The point with the Curzon memo was never one of legality but contemporary explanation of the wordings, further backed up by the 1922 White Paper. The Peel Commission is a report with no more legal value than the Goldstone Report on Israeli war crimesi n the Gaza War. Your continued obsession with "Arab rights" to make it sound like they were meant to be slaves for Jew immigrants speaks volumes about your bias. As I said before: "The Royal Report wasn't added to the mandate either". And as I also said before: You don't understand what a report is, you think it means law or even retroactive decree. The Palestine Royal Report has no legal value today since it didn't have a legal value when it was written either. Sigh...this seems futile, maybe you should start eliminate the inconsistencies in yoru reasoning such as denouncing the 1922 white paper on the basis of chronological precedence but then keeping the Peel Commission even though that was also succeeded by other reports. I already quoted which part of the 1922 White paper would be relevant, again, again, again and again: I do not care a iota about your personal opinion about it. //Gotipe (talk) 18:54, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

Curzon memo was written in November 30, 1920. That is before the League of Nations confirmed the "Mandate for Palestine" in July 24, 1922. This memo speaks about all the original Palestine mandate (included Transjordan). In 1920, the "Mandate for Palestine" document didn't exist, and the Mandate was not confirmed by the League. After July 24, 1922, the document confirmed that (occidental) Palestine was not a class A mandate, because paragraph 4 of Article 22 was never quoted in the document, and no national or political rights for Arabs were mentions in it.

But, the "Mandate for Palestine" document recognised national and political rights for Arabs only in Transjordan (oriental Palestine). Because the "Jewish National Home" was limited only in occidental Palestine (by the first White Paper) : Curzon memo refers to this fact (that, in 1920, Arabs had the right to create an Arab State in oriental Palestine).

Like I said above, the "Palestine Royal Report" is an official document which was written by the mandatory to the League Of Nations. It is clear that this document can not change the Mandate for Palestine, but it explains clearly why the Mandate was not a class A type, but a class of its own (in contrary to Curzon memo, which gives no arguments, and no proves).

PS : David Singer, a Sydney Lawyer and Foundation Member of the International Analysts Network, is agree with Eli E. Hertz analysis. --FireJeff (talk) 23:36, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

This is so laughable. You can't do anythign else but reset to square one every time? The Curzon memo explains the Balfour Declaration. That you didn't know this speaks for itself. I have already explained this three or four times but since it doesn't fit your extremist in absurdum narrative you have to shut your eyes. No document has ever confirmed Occidental Palestine not being a Class A mandate, as has been said all the itme by many others, and an overwhelming abeundance of other sources, omission of the specific paragraph does in no way constitue something else. As usual you just apply your ideas and bias and think others will take it for fact. I am still as amused by your Arab obsession, almost a faint genocidal mania there not uncommon for Jewish Internet Defence Force trolls. If we're going to talk about Arab states, subsequent UN documents confirmed an Arab state in Palestine anyway. Liek I said, the Palestine Royal Report is official but it is not a legal instrument. It is clear that the Curzon memo is more fit to explain why it is a Class A document, it both proves, illustrates and makes arguments. But then again, you have to read the texts which I have, whereas you don't seem to have read anything but Eli Hertz' propaganda. Oh look, you found another fringe scholar who subscribed to Eli Hertz, that makes it two. //Gotipe (talk) 03:39, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

That's enough. Your speech smells arabs propaganda. You claims that Jews stole Palestine from Arabs, because a memo with no legal value said Palestine was a class A mandate. Like I said before, it's just to support your antizionism thesis that people like you deform the truth to delegitimize Israel.

Like I said above, Palestine was not a Class A mandate, because the "Mandate for Palestine" document never recognised a national or political right for Arabs in (occidental) Palestine, and the paragraph 4 of the Article 22 was never quoted in the document. Whatever, the "Palestine Royal Report" confirmed this fact, that "the Mandate [for Palestine] is of a different type from the Mandate for Syria, the Lebanon and Irak".

Like I said above, Curzon memo was written (in 1920) before the Mandate was confirmed by the League (in 1922). This memo speaks about all the original Palestine mandate (included Transjordan), and explains why oriental Palestine (Transjordan) should be separated from occidental Palestine (and forbidden to Jewish immigration) to become an Arab State.

Some Arabs propaganda would like to use this memo to legitimate the right for the "Palestinian people" to create an Arab State in the West Bank and Gaza Strip (even in Israel!). But these people ignore the "Mandate for Palestine" document, which never gave national or political right for Arabs in (occidental) Palestine! "The penultimate paragraph of Article 22 prescribes that the degree of authority to be exercided by the Mandatory shall be defined, at need, by the Council of the League". Well, the Council is clear : it never mentioned national rights for Arabs (in occidental Palestine), just civil and religious rights!

You obsession to invent a right for Arabs reveals your malicious purpose : remove the Jewish right to create a "National Home" in (occidental) Palestine, and gives this right to the Arabs, named today "Palestinians". Well, you're completely discredit, and your argumentation lose all its value. --FireJeff (talk) 15:17, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

"That's enough. Your speech smells arabs propaganda." Hahahah, xD "You claims that Jews stole Palestine from Arabs" Where? "it's just to support your antizionism thesis that people like you deform the truth to delegitimize Israel." No, it indicates Palestine was a Class A mandate as per the original meaning of Balfour's wordings. The only one obsessed with Arabs and "antizionism" here is you. I have already adressed your Peel Commission ten times, but apart from Eli Hertz and your almost laughable extreme conspiratorial bias you don't have much else to come with. I still don't care what you claim "some Arab propaganda" says, the only propaganda I see here is your gibberish and emotional rants. As for your final rant: Already adressed your intentional misinterpretations (such as the fact that noone mentions the rights for a Jewish state either, just a Jewish community in Palestine as the early white paper confirms) and I have also repeatedly denounced your probably racist obsession with Arabs; your objective couldn't be clearer. Predictably you project all this, but in quite an amateurish way. "Well, you're completely discredit, and your argumentation lose all its value." Haha, well aren't you one to reach such conclusions: "derp i am right cus i ignore all facts, i hate arabs, u lose bye"//Gotipe (talk) 21:43, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

This idea that the "national home" reference in the preamble would legitimise a Jewish state has always been based on massive historical revisionism. The first document does NOT refer to Jewish self-determination as a political right, merely a "national home", subsequently reinterpretated by people. Nowhere does it refer to the creation of a Jewish state. (Gotipe) : Well, Israel has no right to exist, because Jews stole this land from Arabs? And that's me who is "probably racist"?

Your almost laughable extreme conspiratorial bias (Gotipe) : Well, that's not racist! The famous zionism conspiracy, like the "The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion"?

I still don't care what you claim "some Arab propaganda" : League of Nations said ‘Homeland for Jews’ not a Legal Claim on Territory : The League of Nations wanted the British Mandate of Palestine to serve the Palestinians in accordance with their status as “Class A.” It envisaged a Palestinian state. [...] So here is the Memorandum of Lord Curzon, British Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, concerning League of Nations “Class A” Mandates in November 30, 1920. (Juan Cole) You still don't believe me? I imagine that, for you, Juan Cole is right (because you said that nowhere does [the Mandate] refer to the creation of a Jewish state, but this right was given to Arabs)...

Just a Jewish community in Palestine (Gotipe) : the Balfour Declaration and the "Mandate for Palestine" refers to the "Jewish people" (and not the "Jewish community")!

It's filled with weasel words such as Eli Hertz' personal opinions. See FireJeff's nonsense on the talk page : Well, what are these weasel words? I'll be happy to explain you (again!). This is your personal opinion, and that's why "the neutrality of this article is disputed". But this article contains no weasel words!

Predictably you project all this (Gotipe) : No, 82.224.25.120 is not my IP adress.

But in quite an amateurish way (Gotipe) : Well, make a fool of somebody and say antisemitic thesis are a professional way maybe? I give you facts and proves, and my language was NEVER racist with Arabs (compared with you for the Jews).

u lose bye (Gotipe) : Right. Bye bye looser. ;)

The truth may not always win, but it is always right! (Eli E. Hertz) --FireJeff (talk) 00:46, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

I've had a look at the source, This Land is My Land by Eli E. Hertz. My opinion is that what amounts to a self-published book by the president of Myths and Facts, who is involved with CAMERA, isn't a reliable source in Wikipedia terms, and particularly not for a "fact" which the author says is contradicted by numerous encyclopaedias. Trying to build a case directly from primary sources, that is British reports, is to produce original research.     ←   ZScarpia   02:17, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

I agree, ZScarpia, it's producing original research and Eli Hertz is not in any way a source fit for Wikipedia. As for FireJeff: "Well, Israel has no right to exist, because Jews stole this land from Arabs?" Still only you who've said that. "The famous zionism conspiracy, like the "The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion"" I beg your pardon? "You still don't believe me? I imagine that, for you, Juan Cole is right" Well tell me why he is not right, he directly quotes the Curzon memo. "refers to the "Jewish people" (and not the "Jewish community")!" Yes, it refers to other communities as well with the National Home being a community for Jews. Not a state, a later idea. "No, 82.224.25.120 is not my IP adress." When did I say that? "say antisemitic thesis[..]my language was NEVER racist with Arabs (compared with you for the Jews)". Please show where I was anti-semitic, afaik I haven't mentioned Jews at all outside source quotes. "The truth may not always win, but it is always right! (Eli E. Hertz)" Hahahah, xD //Gotipe (talk) 13:42, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

• "Well, what are these weasel words?" The weasel words are: "There is much to be gained by attributing Class “A” status", immediately showing bias. "provided one never reads the actual wording of the document" indicating all these other sources haven't read "the document" when in factt hey just have a different opinion than Eli Hertz. "frequently used by the pro-Palestinian media" speaks for itself, is the entire world except Eli Hertz part of this "pro-Palestinian media"? The rest is just Peel Commission quotes misused by Eli Hertz and already dismissed in this talk page. //Gotipe (talk) 13:42, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

Given the source evidence I've seen, I think that the furthest that can be gone is to include Palestine as a Class A mandate, noting that its terms were different from the others in certain respects.     ←   ZScarpia   15:11, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

Eli Hertz is not in any way a source fit for Wikipedia : You forgot David Singer, a Sydney Lawyer and Foundation Member of the International Analysts Network! Whatever, why these are not reliable sources in Wikipedia terms? Because they are not agree whith you? You're joking I hope. (and why Juan Cole's article will be more truthful? Nonsense)

Still only you who've said that : You said that Israel has no right to exist (because the Mandate speaks about a "Jewish National Home", which, for you, doesn't mean "Jewish State".), but an Arab State in Palestine does (if Palestine was a Class "A" mandate). So?

I beg your pardon? : Why did you said that this article was added by an "extreme conspiratorial bias"?

Well tell me why he is not right, he directly quotes the Curzon memo. : Because Curzon memo was written before the League ratified the "Mandate for Palestine" in 1922. This memo has no value according to international laws. Whatever, it refers to the Arab right for creating an Arab State only in oriental Palestine (Transjordan). This right was confirmed later by the League in 1922.

National Home being a community for Jews. Not a state, a later idea. : No. The Balfour Declaration and the "Mandate for Palestine" documents refer to a "National Home" for the "Jewish people" (not only the jewish community in Palestine). These documents refer to a "National Home" because there was not enough Jews in Palestine to create a Jewish State in 1922: "The National Home was still no more than an experiment. It would be a very long time, it seemed, before the Jews could become a majority in the country." And Jews were not still able to became independent at this date (1922).

"There is much to be gained by attributing Class “A” status" : if you read the entire sentence, it explains later why "pro-palestinian media" would like to attribut Class "A" status for Palestine (to delegitimize Israel).

"Provided one never reads the actual wording of the document" : if they had read the document, they could never claim that the "Mandate for Palestine" recognised a national right for Arabs to create an Arab State in the (occidental) Palestine (or if they do, it is revisionism)

"Frequently used by the pro-Palestinian media" speaks for itself, is the entire world part of this "pro-Palestinian media"? : Lot of people speak about something they don't understand. And, if they do, they use this propaganda to serve their cause, like in this website : League of Nations said ‘Homeland for Jews’ not a Legal Claim on Territory. Futhermore, it is not a coincidence if the majority of the world (more than 50 %) have still negative views of Israel...

The rest is just Peel Commission quotes misused by Eli Hertz and already dismissed in this talk page. Where? By a memo which has no legal value according to international laws. I "think" you didn't understand the "Palestine Royal Report" and even less the Curzon memo.

Noting that its terms were different from the others in certain respects : Well, in the "Mandate for Palestine" document, the paragraph 4 of the Article 22 is not quoted, and this document never mentioned a national right for Arabs to create a "National Home" or a State in the (occidental) Palestine. --FireJeff (talk) 17:16, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

I recommend rolling the article back to the condition it was in at the Revision as of 22:35, 12 May 2012.     ←   ZScarpia   17:33, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

Right. I hope you're joking. This revision gives no secondary sources to proves that Palestine was a class A mandate. Why does it not disturb you? On the contrary, the current article gives 2 secondary sources, and a lot of primary sources... --FireJeff (talk) 11:55, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

In the view of FireJeff's total inability to actually adress my points and just repeat his inane nonsense ramblings and read into text what it clearly do not say (Like that just because I agree with 99,99% of the sources saying it was a Class A mandate, I somehow am against the State of Israel which relies upon documents from the UN etc that I never questioned) I agree with ZScarpia. FireJeff's misuse of primary sources, based wholly on Eli Hertz' misinterpretation, has no place here. I must say though, I am extremely amused by FireJeff's laughable attempt to back up Eli Hertz' conspiracy theories with somebody from the "International Analysts Network", a neoconservative, Muslim-obsessed "research" group barely any different from Eli Hertz and his "MythsandFacts".//Gotipe (talk) 12:48, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

As far as sources which say that the Mandate for Palestine was a Class A type go, we have:

• The International Court of Justice in the document Legal Consequences of the Construction of a Wall in the Occupied Palestinian Territory.
• The US government documents cited by Harlan in the Citations for Class A Mandate Status section above.
• The Encyclopaedia Britannica, a third-party source. Also, according to Hertz, other encylopedias also say that the mandate was a Class A type.
• A Line in the Sand by James Barr (2011), which I think would be accepted as a reliable second-party source.

Against that, I don't think that we have any reliable second-party sources. I've already given my opinion of Eli Herts's book. As far as David Singer's article goes, it appears to me that it was published originally on two websites at the end of July 2012, the Canada Free Press site and J-Wire. At least as far as Singer's article is concerned, it's not obvious that these sites fulfil the reliable source criteria of Wikipedia. In addition, it doesn't look to me as though Singer actually says that the Mandate was not a Class A type. The only reference to type I can find is where Singer confirms that the ICJ said that the Mandate was a Class A type. As far as the given primary sources are concerned, as I already wrote, to try to build a case using them would be original research in my opinion.

    ←   ZScarpia   14:30, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

Singer actually says that the Mandate was not a Class A type : Learns to read. David Singer said :The ICJ in its 2004 decision on the legality of Israel‘s security barrier, referring to it only once in the following statement (a class A. Mandate for Palestine was entrusted to Great Britain). That this statement was demonstrably wrong was made clear by the following statement in the Palestine Royal Commission Report of 1937. [...] The Mandate is of a different type from the Mandate for Syria and the Lebanon

Just repeat his inane nonsense ramblings' : These "nonsense ramblings are just in your mind!

Based wholly on Eli Hertz' misinterpretation : There is no misinterpretation. But it seemed that your closed mind can not understand Eli Hertz's analysis.

Muslim-obsessed "research" : You're obsession to make pass your detractors to arabophobe (or islamophobe) is a little bit childish.

As far as sources which say that the Mandate for Palestine was a Class A type : You can add these sources in the paragraph : "Many assume that the “Mandate for Palestine” is a Class “A” mandate...". Whatever, these sources are not truthful, because they are two primary sources, which can not prove that Palestine was a Class a type (because they have no legal value according to international laws), and the two secondary sources give no arguments, they just say that Palestine was a Class A type, without proves!

I've already given my opinion of Eli Herts's book. As far as David Singer's : We don't care about your opinion of Eli Hertz and David Singer. Points of View are not allowed in wikipedia.

Just because I agree with 99,99% of the sources : "Truth is not always on majority's side".

--FireJeff (talk) 21:26, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

Pardon me, I missed the quoted bit from Singer's article. However, the onus is on you to show that Singer's article is a reliable source as far as the Wikipedia criteria are concerned. As far as whether my opinion is relevant or not, it does count when it comes to determining consensuses, one of the things determined by consensus being the reliability of sources, which is what I was commenting on. If you can't produce compelling reasons why your two secondary sources should be regarded as reliable, they can't be used in the article for anything except providing the opinions of the authors. As far as that is concerned, I'd say that those opinions have no significance unless they are quoted in sources which are reliable. I still recommend that the article is reverted to its 12 May state.     ←   ZScarpia   22:31, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

Well why your sources should be more reliable that Eli Hertz's book and David Singer's article? These sources gives more arguments by using legal documents, like the "Balfour Declaration", the "Covenant of the League of Nations" (Article 94 vs Article 95), the "Mandate for Palestine" and the "Palestine Royal Report". Futhermore, Eli Hertz is a specialist of Israel and the Arab-Israeli Conflict, he wrote lot of books about this; David Singer is an Australian Lawyer and Foundation Member of the International Analysts Network.

Your sources are not specialized in this subject. They quote no legal documents, according to the international laws, and give no proves : they just say that Palestine was a "Class A" mandate as a fact, without proves. It's not enough. I still recommend that the article has to stay like this, but we can add your sources in that paragraph : "Many assume that the “Mandate for Palestine” is a Class “A” mandate."

PS: For you, if we say that Palestine was a Class A mandate, we don't need sources and proves, but if we say the opposite, we need a lot (which are never enough!) ? (Because you assume that the article has to be reverted to its 12 May state.) Weird... --FireJeff (talk) 21:52, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

If something is to be added it's that a few fringe "researchers" such as CAMERA-boss Eli Hertz (Who's written such totally unbiased, scientific texts as "Debunking the Biggest Lie: "Palestinian"" and "A Record Incompatible with the Civilized World" where he does nothing but bashes Arabs and Muslims in general), and one Australian from a neoconservative Muslim-obsessed thinktank unsurprisingly in agreement with Eli Hertz, thinks it was something else. Maybe you think massproducing nonsense books and calling oneself "expert" matters much. I love how you also, in your continued display of total reliance on Eli Hertz' website, quotes the Treaty of Sevrés even though it was annulled in 1923. Even so, "Article 95 of the Treaty of Sèvres, however, makes it clear" clearly makes nothing clear of the kind you (Eli Hertz) pretends. "Eli Hertz is a specialist of Israel and the Arab-Israeli Conflict" Acc to who, Eli Hertz himself? Avigdor Liebermann? Rofl. "PS: For you, if we say that Palestine was a Class A mandate, we don't need sources and proves" Except that he has offered reputable sources time and again.//Gotipe (talk) 16:09, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

Problems with the new paragraphs

In general they are way too long and make the part "Hidden Agendas and Objections" way too long and hard to read. They are inacurate, e.g. they give the impression that the said territories were completely unknown, whereas the sources only say that the precise were unknown.

The American view is given way too much weight. Mashkin (talk) 01:20, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Re: "Article 22 was written two months before the signing of the peace treaty, before it was known what "communities", "peoples", or "territories" were related to sub-paragraphs 4, 5, and 6."

I believe we've already had a conversation about one of these situations before. Here is the citation (again) to the FRUS Council of Four meeting where the independence of Faisal, and the Damascus, Homs, Hama, and Allepo Arab communities was discussed ad nauseum for more than ten pages. President Wilson finally said that he didn't care about either the British or French claims to Syria, if the people there didn't want them. It didn't matter if the territory of Syria was occupied or not. Article 22(4) didn't apply to all of Syria, it only applied to "certain communities": "Certain communities formerly belonging to the Turkish Empire have reached a stage of development where their existence as independent nations can be provisionally recognized..." Nobody knew which of those communities related to which of the territories. Some like Faisal in Damascus were supposed to be independent, but under a protectorate. The King-Crane Commission was being sent there to find out if that was acceptable to the inhabitants. Faisal's brother Abdullah was permitted to have an independent government in Transjordan.

I believe you don't give the American view enough weight. The United States declared that the Japanese mandate was invalid ab initio because the preamble said it had been approved by the Allied and Associated Powers, but the US had not been consulted. I gave you one citation for that in the article, here is another: International Law, Hersch Lauterpacht,page 36

The President demanded that all draft mandates be approved by the United States before they were approved by the Council. The League had been told they only needed to make sure the administrations satisfied the terms laid down by the Allied and Associated Powers, now it turned out that in many instances the Council of Four had not bothered to get the approval of the Council of Ten. Lauterpacht notes the United States position made it impossible for the League to complete any mandate business for the remainder of that session.

The United States also declared that the terms of the mandates were not legally binding, and that it intended to continue exercising its concessions and consular courts until the mandatory administrations entered into bilateral treaty agreements with the US. Those treaties imposed additional conditions on the mandates, required annual reports, and prohibited the administrations from altering or terminating the mandates without obtaining US consent. The US had one of those treaties for every mandate. The bilateral treaties survived the dissolution of the League, and led to direct US involvement in the Anglo-American Committee and Truman's demands for higher Jewish immigration quotas in Palestine. harlan (talk) 13:17, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Noting refusal to address issues after reverting (no valid reason given)

Attempted to address the issue - [6] - deleted.

Reason given for revert: "There is little uncertainty about what happened to the territory of Mandatory Palestine. I realize that you have issues with the legitimacy of that result, but Wikipedia is not a soap box for you to air those views"[7]

An unsourced opinion and personal comment are not a justification for reverting

The editor reverted to a statement referring to a period more than twelve months AFTER the Mandate for Palestine expired. The source is un-attributed, not WP:RS

What is certain is that ALL the Armistice Agreements say "dictated exclusively by military considerations". No borders were changed by them.

What is certain is 1946 is BEFORE 1947. Jordan could not possibly have been a part of the 1947 Partition Plan

Restoring accordingly ... talknic (talk) 11:32, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

First, I note your 1RR violation. Please revert.

Second, the goal here is to say what happened to the territory that was part of the mandate. See every other mandate listed. Presumably this would be after the armistice agreements were signed, since during the war the amount of territory held was constantly in flux. I have no particular attachment to any source. Feel free to use your own. But the article should answer the question of "what happened to the territory that was part of the mandate?" Jsolinsky (talk) 12:20, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Jsolinsky - There is no 1RR on the article. The Armistice Agreements - they ALL say "dictated exclusively by military considerations". No borders were changed ... talknic (talk) 03:36, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Futhermore : "But the article should answer the question of "what happened to the territory that was part of the mandate?" The article should accurately answer the question, with Reliable Secondary Sources which accurately reflect the Armistice Agreements and/or documents if the Secondary Sources refer to them.

Israel was already recognized and had already become a UN Member State and had already signed Armistice Agreements, which did not change or create any borders in any way what so ever, BEFORE 31st Aug 1949, when Israel made it's first official claim to territories not belonging to any State. "With regard to the territorial adjustments of which the Commission treats in Chapter II of it memorandum, the Delegation of Israel considers that in addition to the territory indicated on the working document annexed to the Protocol of May 12, all other areas falling within the control and jurisdiction of Israel under the terms of the armistice agreements concluded by Israel with Egypt, the Lebanon, the Hashemite Jordan Kingdom and Syria should be formally recognized as Israel territory". [8]. The claims were rebuffed, referring back to the Armistice Agreements and this common phrase to all of them "the terms of this agreement are dictated exclusively by military considerations".

"since during the war the amount of territory held was constantly in flux" Israel was already declared and recognized by the time the Armistice Agreements were signed. Non-State territory 'held' by the military forces of the respective States was constantly in flux. The Laws of War were customary International Law in force before Israel was declared Art. 42 SECTION III “Territory is considered occupied when it is actually placed under the authority of the hostile army. The occupation extends only to the territory where such authority has been established and can be exercised. “ ... talknic (talk) 10:31, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

I deliberately spoke to "control" because I am perfectly aware that there are questions of legitimacy.

But your previous text "Following the war, the area between the State of Israel and the area west of the Jordan[19] was controlled by Israel." is going to be nonsensical to most readers.

If there is a remaining issue on this part, I propose third party mediation Jsolinsky (talk) 14:38, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

Jsolinsky - Control by what? Feather dusters and kind words? May 22nd [9] and Aug 1948[10] Israeli Government statements to the UNSC and the Israeli proclamation tell us Israel held non-Israeli territory under military control. Customary Laws of War applied Art. 42 SECTION III. By Dec 1949 the territories in question were still NOT [11] Israeli. No territory has ever been legally annexed to Israel.

As it is now, the statement is based on the misleading presumption that Israel's borders somehow, magically, changed through the Armistice Agreements or by the acquisition of territory by war and/or that No Mans Land extended from Israel's borders, when it was actually only between disputed Armistice Demarcation Lines. Why are you are insisting on misleading the reader.

Israel agreed to the wording of the Armistice Agreements. The Agreements all say "the terms of this agreement are dictated exclusively by military considerations"

"If there is a remaining issue on this part, I propose third party mediation " go right ahead ... talknic (talk) 00:49, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

NOTING - Jolinsksi's refusal or in-ability to quote an alleged RS [12] ... talknic (talk) 02:27, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Talknic, I gave you a link that comes complete with highlighted text showing you exactly where the text begins (which can not be cut and pasted). What is wrong with you? Please don't engage me on my personal talk page anymore. It is not productive, and it keeps important history of your conduct off of the discussion pages where it belongs. Jsolinsky (talk) 02:52, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Jsolinsky - "I gave you a link that comes complete with highlighted text showing you exactly where the text begins (which can not be cut and pasted)." [13] Uh? There's no text. The reader has no idea what the source is supposedly saying.

Please don't engage me on my personal talk page anymore. It is not productive, and it keeps important history of your conduct off of the discussion pages where it belongs. Everything is available [14] ... talknic (talk) 05:16, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Third opinion

Of the two versions in dispute, i.e. this and this, I think it is pretty clear that the second version is preferable as it explains what happened after the mandate ended as with all the other mandates. Also, the insertion of the sentence "Following the war, the area between the State of Israel and the area west of the Jordan was controlled by Israel." is very confusing. What "area" is being referred to? Cheers, Number 57 11:40, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Number 57 - Unfortunately the source given for the second version is un-informative. The reader learns precisely NOTHING by following it. You apparently didn't read the sources, but prefer the version with a source that says zip... What was it supposed to have said? Please quote it...

"Also, the insertion of the sentence "Following the war, the area between the State of Israel and the area west of the Jordan was controlled by Israel." is very confusing. What "area" is being referred to?" On 15 June 1949 Shertock had no problems saying "As for the frontier between the State of Israel and the area west of the Jordan which is not included in Israel, there, too, our aim is peace, and peace negotiations. We have always declared that we should prefer to see a separate Arab State in that area, but we have not set this as a condition sine qua non to a settlement." Note: he did not say the Armistice Demarcation Lines and; he said 'an Arab in that area', so he's obviously not just talking about an Arab State in the area of no mans land.

It's sourced, so readers can find out, thus..

//"Following the war, the area between the State of Israel and the area west of the Jordan was controlled by Israel. Until 1967, the West Bank was under the control of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan and the Egyptian-occupied Gaza Strip. Small slivers of territory east and south of the Sea of Galilee were held by Syria.// ... talknic (talk) 12:41, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Given the basicness of the facts in question, the sources are not really required (I fail to see how anyone could dispute the statement currently in the text about what happened to the land) and are not a reason for reverting to a totally uninformative version. If you don't like the sources, I would suggest just removing them.

The sentence "the area between the State of Israel and the area west of the Jordan[1] was controlled by Israel" still makes no sense. What is this area that is being talked about? The West Bank? No-Mans Land in the Galilee or Jerusalem? Latrun? If you can define what this area is, then there should be no problem in adding it to the existing text. However, forcing readers to check a reference to figure out what on earth this refers to should not happen. Number 57 14:12, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Number 57 - "Given the basicness of the facts in question, the sources are not really required" When it suits you, of course... however The emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic, according to reliable, published sources The current source tells the reader exactly NOTHING!

"not a reason for reverting to a totally uninformative version" Nice try. I guess you'll say anything in desperation. The reverted source informs the reader of what Shertock described as "..the frontier between the State of Israel and the area west of the Jordan which is not included in Israel" The current source tells the reader exactly NOTHING!

"If you can define what this area is, then there should be no problem in adding it to the existing text." Oh? The current version doesn't actually define this area. The reader can click on the source and it will tell them exactly NOTHING! This, according to you is informative? AMAZING!!  :::Shertock described it as "the area west of the Jordan which is not included in Israel". But you don't like information being conveyed to the reader by a pesky source. Especially one that tells the reader the area was NOT included in Israel ... talknic (talk) 01:17, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Nothing has been done "in desperation" - I have no vested interest in this article and came here solely to provide a third opinion. Do you dispute the text

"A plan for peacefully dividing the remainder of the Mandate failed. The Mandate ended at midnight on 14 May 1948, and the 1948 Arab–Israeli War began. Following the war, 75% of the area west of the Jordan River was controlled by the new State of Israel. Other parts, until 1967, formed the West Bank of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan and the Egyptian-occupied Gaza Strip. Small slivers of territory east and south of the Sea of Galilee were held by Syria."

If so, how do you dispute it? If you do not dispute it and are only complaining about the references, change or remove them. Number 57 09:09, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

I have also reverted this edit you made, as your edit summary ("The source given says 1921. The article at that point is talking about a post 1948 period") is incorrect - the sentence the text was added to begins "In April 1921", so the article at that point is clearly not talking about a post-1948 period. Number 57 14:16, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Number 57 - My error on the revert. Apologies ... talknic (talk) 01:17, 21 November 2011 (UTC)