Talk:Air Rhodesia Flight 825

Nel's book

I have reinstated Nel's references to the rape incident.

May I remind readers that WIkipedia is about verifiability, not truth. This can be seen in the context of the question "Does God exist?". Wikipedia does not take sides in this argument, but provides a forum where relevant arguement from both the Bible and from Richard Dawkins can be put side by side. In exactly the same way, I have quoted from both Nel's and Rickards' writings and also summarised their credentials to assist the user. I beleive that my summary is fair. It is up to the interested user to read for themselves what both have written and to decide for themselves. Martinvl (talk) 09:57, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Exactly right. Rape is an allegation in most juridictions unless proven in court. Also, we have to decide if the writings of these individual meet WP:RELY, otherwise they may fall into what we would now call a blog. Socrates2008 (Talk) 10:24, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Please note ALL the "facts" on my website are extracts from news reports as it clearly says at the top of the relevant webpage on my site. That is why I edited the reference to me "Rickard" (incorrect spelling) making the statement about the sensationalist newspapers reporting rapes. I made no such statement but was quoting another. Please edit to reflect this. If you wish to mention the comment and the rape issue leave my name out of it. I will look in my records and find the source of that report when I have time.

{{edit protected}} Support and request removal of the following

Rickard,<ref name=RobRickards>{{cite web |url = http://home.iprimus.com.au/rob_rickards/viscounts/hunyani.htm |title = The Hunyani Disaster |author = Rob Rickards |work = Viscounts in Africa - The Air Rhodesia story |accessdate = 2010-10-09}}</ref> a former Air Zimbabwe pilot claims that the alleged rape incident was invented by the "sensationalistic Jo'burg papers".

The cited source appears to state that this is uncited hearsay. For this reason alone, this is not a WP:reliable source for allegations of rape or journalistic malpractice. --Boson (talk) 21:06, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

 Removed — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 21:52, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

My Book "Viscount Down"

I want to make it perfectly clear that I did not claim at any time to have parachuted into the Hunyani crash site and neither have I claimed anywhere at any time, that anybody was raped. Your report stating myself as a source, is considered to be malicious as it has no founding whatsoever and will be deeply disturbing to relatives of the victims. You (Martinv1) are hereby requested to cease attributing references to me that are grossly misrepresentative of the facts. Failure to do so will result in a serious complaint to Wiki against you. Keith Nell. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Spigieli (talk • contribs) 09:59, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Keith, I have reread your website and request that you accept my apologies regarding the rape allegation. I must have read your website rather quickly.

However, may I respectfully point out to you that your website can give the impression that you were in the party that parachuted into the area. The website reads "When the SAS parachuted into the crash site ... This is a rare story by a member of the Rhodesian SAS ... I was there". Most of the page in question is devoted to the aircraft tragedy itself and only a short paragraph to the military follow-up (to which I now understand you were referring when you wrote "I was there"). Perhaps you could look at rewording that phrase of your website - maybe something like "I was there helping to track them down". Martinvl (talk) 12:45, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

To Martinvl - I can accept that some people might 'assume' that I parachuted into the crash site - but the paragraph in which I stated that I was there, is clearly about the mission to locate the Viscount Gang, and therefore its not really of importance whether I was part of the search and rescue team or not. I am very much more concerned about your statement that the Hostess was repeatedly raped, referring to me as the source of that information. How could you conclude that when there is nothing of the sort? You say you 'must have read the website rather quickly' - this is no excuse for that blunder. Apart from the trauma your allegation causes relatives of the victims, it also affects my reputation since my forthcoming book is already regarded as the main source of reference to all aspects of the terrorist missile campaign that caused these disasters. I will accept your apologies though - and thank you for setting the record straight. --Keith Nell-- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.16.170.37 (talk) 14:27, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

I think we can mark the above as resolved. For the record, this is related to OTRS ticket 2010102910008463. Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry (talk) 00:21, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Clear

It should be made clear how much military equipment there was on the two planes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.151.23.82 (talk) 12:22, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Good article nomination

I am concerned that User:Cliftonian, who is now the principal contributor to this article assessed its quality on behalf of four different Wikiprojects before submitting it as a Good Article. I was always under the impression that reviewers should not be editors who were closely involved with writing the article. Martinvl (talk) 21:48, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

According to my understanding, for classes below GA class (stub, start, C and B) it is possible to assess the article yourself so long as you are impartial in doing it, which I did my best to be. I apologise if my actions seemed presumptuous. If you or anybody else wishes to re-assess the article for B-class, I have no problem with that. In the meantime, the article is now nominated for GA, which does have to be reviewed by somebody else. —Cliftonian (talk) 04:07, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

In my view, this article automatically fails a "B" quality test because:

1. It is not stable - by definition it cannot be stable four minutes after it was posted.
2. It has not been independently reviewed for completeness. If the original editor had a "blind spot" when writing it, he will have the same "blind spot" when reviewing it.

May I respectfully suggest that you revoke your own assessments of the article, withdraw the GA nomination and invite member of the relevant four Wikiprojects to assess it. Once that has been done, I will look at it more carefully (I am not a member of any of the four interested Wikiprojects). BTW, it looks to be a reasonably good article, but on skim-reading it I noticed a few ommissions. I also feel that the lead might need revisiting.

Martinvl (talk) 10:54, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

I have made a number of what I believe to be non-contraversial changes. There are a other points that I believe should be seen to including:

• The lead needs an overhaul - it concentrates too much on the incident itself whereas it should be a summary of the article as a whole - in particular you should try to summarise the political situation in a few lines. You should also try to trim down a lot of the detail. May I suggest that you ensure that each of the following are covered in equal proportions, both in the lead and in the artcile as a whole:

1. The political context - the reader might not know anything about UDI
2. The state of the bush war, in particular why were the guerillas able to operate
3. Details of the attack
4. Consequences of the attack

• Be careful of WP:NPOV - the inclusion of Smtih's statement when declaring UDI can be seen as a promotion of your own POV.
• Try to remove all citations from the lead itself, except where you are making direct quotes. This is only possible if the lead is a true summary of the article itself.

Martinvl (talk) 14:52, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

I have downgraded the article to "C" class across the board as you requested, as I feel I cannot reasonably argue that I did not have a blind spot while writing this; if that were the case, I would still have the blind spot now. On the other hand, I disagree with the view that the article can not be considered to have been stable immediately after posting: in my view, an article should be considered unstable when two or more users are regularly making considerable and/or contradictory changes to it.

I noticed two changes you made to the article, both of which are not entirely correct:

The first was that concerning the name of the colony, which you incorrectly changed the article to say was changed on UDI. Not so. Salisbury began using the name without "Southern" in October 1964, following the independence of Northern Rhodesia as Zambia. Reasoning that the qualifier "Southern" was superfluous as there was no longer a Northern, the Southern Rhodesian government announced the change on 7 October and confirmed their intent to change the constitution on the 23rd. Assuming it was a matter of course, they started using the new name immediately without waiting for Britain's assent, but Britain ultimately blocked the move, saying the acts naming the country were British, and therefore could not be altered by the colonial government; but Salisbury went on using the name anyway (see Claire Palley (1966), The constitutional history and law of Southern Rhodesia 1888–1965, with special reference to Imperial control, Oxford University Press, pp 742–743). This is a rather complicated affair, but the point I am trying to make is that the name was not changed concurrently with UDI: Salisbury had actually been using "Rhodesia" for a year by that point.

The second was some that you added at the end, regarding Muzorewa's 1979 election victory and so on. All of this was unsourced and not entirely accurate. I've written a new, more accurate version, with sources; I hope it meets with your approval.

Regarding the GA nomination, I can't see how it is really harmful to the article to have it listed for review, particularly as I believe the article stands a good chance of passing, which would upgrade it to GA class across the board anyway, thereby superseding all of the relevant B class reviews. I won't make a fuss about the step between C and B class as it has little significance, but if you or anybody else wishes to review it for B class, that can only be constructive.

I hope all of this is helpful and that you are well. I will attempt to have a run through the article, and particularly the lead, in the manner you described above. I will quickly say that the references in the lead are only present on direct quotes and following the word "terrorism", which I believe is a strong word that requires a reference after it, even in the lead, to lend it credence. Thanks, and all the best, —Cliftonian (talk) 15:15, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

I beg to differ over the use of "Southern Rhodesia" vis-a-vis "Rhodesia". I have in my possession stamps that I collected when I was a student during my first year at the University of Natal in 1965. These stamps have the country name "Southern Rhodesia" and are overstamped "Independence 11th November 1965". A few weeks later new stampes appeared with a similar design, still bearing the Queen's head, but the country name "Rhodesia". A particularly good example can be seen here. If you visit Southern Rhodesia you will see that the bill to change the country's name from "Southern Rhodesia" to "Rhodesia" that was passed in 1964 never received assent from the Governor so never became law.

As regards a GA status, I suggest that you request a review on all the Wikiprojects concerend, stating that you woudl like it to submit it for GA. I am sure that with a bit of tidying up here and there you should be on the last lap, but you cannot hold the finishing tape while you are running.

Martinvl (talk) 16:38, 22 November 2012 (UTC)