Talk:Japanese name

3-character surnames

I originally wrote the claim in the article that says 3-character names are less common than 1 or 2-character surnames. Now, I am not sure about this. Until we get some source, we should remove this assertion. -- Taku 10:46, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Kaneko a personal name?

We read that Kaneko is a personal name as well as a family name. Is this true? I've never heard of it being used as a personal name. [cough] Is it possible that this was written by some gaijin, pardon me, non-Japanese individual, unaware of "Kanako"? Or is it me that's deluded? -- Hoary 04:57, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

We read: (For example Kaneko 金子, or Masuko 益子). Yes, how about Masuko? I don't recall ever having met somebody with the personal name Masuko, although my circle of acquaintances may be smaller than average. -- Hoary 10:44, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I have never met someone whose name is Kaneko 金子, or Masuko 益子 neither but as those name's construction is not unusual, I don't think possibility is zero. --Kusunose 14:18, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

With Google, I found someone whose given name is Masuko 益子 here. There may be someone whose given name is Kaneko 金子 as well. --Kusunose 14:20, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Here, someone claims he/she knows a person whose name is Kaneko Kaneko (金子金子). --Kusunose 14:25, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

But an isolated instance isn't the point. To list Moon Unit as an example of an American name, without describing it as uncommon or unusual, would be misleading. Is the given name Kaneko a whole lot more common than Moon Unit? Or does the article give it undue weight? Fg2 21:03, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Ah, I've found that 金子 かねこ is indeed a girl's name, though a very old fashioned one. Ditto for 益子 ますこ. Putting aside the matter of the kanji used for them, Haruna and Satomi are both surnames and girls' names. -- Hoary 13:39, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Hi, I think the most good example for the topic is Mayumi 真弓 (female's personal name). The case Kaneko and Masuko is not common and I don't feel natural.

Only one reading correct?

We read:

A name written in kanji may have more than one common pronunciation, only one of which is correct for a given individual.

This is not my area of expertise, but I believe that this is wrong.

Is the pronunciation written (via "ruby", etc.) in the koseki? I don't think it is. (I may be wrong.) If it isn't, then the correct pronunciation of a child's surname would be that preferred by the family. If the adult later decided that "Miyakawa" sounded cooler than the family's traditional "Miyagawa", she could call herself the former.

Hang on, no, it's more complex than that. I have a friend called 鎌田, Kamata. I'll call her Nami. (Her parents are Kamata too, not Kamada.) On rare formal occasions Nami has to declare that the pronunciation of her name is Kamada (which she dislikes). And presumably the roman-letter name in her passport is "Kamada".

Thus the pronunciation is not arbitrary. But even so, it's simplistic to say "only one [pronunciation] will be correct for a given individual". If you call Nami "Kamada-san" or "Miss Kamada", she'll politely "correct" you the first time, be pissed off if you continue. If however you have some power of attorney or anyway are picking up Nami's passport for her, "Kamata" will be wrong and "Kamada" correct.

Unvoiced alternatives seem preferred in Japanese; I suspect that Nami's case is common.

Now let's move on to personal names. My own interest is photography. 森山大道 is a famous photographer. It's clear from what's printed here and there that his name is to be pronounced "Daidō". But if you go back to the seventies, you'll see it printed as "Hiromichi". This is no mere fluke: 東松照明 is written to be pronounced "Shōmei", but early publications have it printed as "Teruaki". And I could give more examples, but don't want to labor the point. Question, though: Is it right to talk about a single correct reading for a name? I very much doubt it, but lack either the knowledge to improve this or the time/energy in which to find out for sure. -- Hoary 05:23, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree that names sometimes have multiple readings, and that an individual sometimes uses multiple pronunciations for his or her name without changing the writing, with voiced and unvoiced variations, or on/kun variations. My impression is that these aren't very common, but common enough that they're not curiosities. It's probably worth avoiding referring to "the" singular correct reading of a name, and acknowledging that some people have names that they read in multiple ways. Fg2 08:21, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the response.

Increasingly, I'm tending to think that the voiced/unvoiced and on/kun ambiguities are pretty common (the latter especially so among male literati). Like you, I don't want to make a big issue of it, but I'm sure it's worth mentioning, not least because the flat statement that there's a single reading contradicts what's said in a significant and growing number of articles that have templates pointing to this page. But how should one mention it most accurately?

As I'm too lazy busy to travel 100km to look up the koseki in which (yes!) I appear, I'd like to ask about a simple matter of fact: Does the koseki give the reading of the surname and/or personal names? (I asked th' missus, but she didn't remember.) -- Hoary 08:40, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

According to these pages form Oshiete! goo, koseki does not record readings, though till Heisei 6 it did for those who requested. And although Jūminhyō records readings, it's for data processing and not legal. --Kusunose 12:24, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

If this is indeed so (and right now I'm too sleepy/lazy to want to read the links you kindly provided), then for some people there is an (a) legally correct reading and for others there isn't. Most people have a (b) single pronunciation at any one stage (s) of their lives, and for most purposes we can regard (b_s) as correct; (b_s) may or may not be the same as (a) (if (a) exists). Gulp. Consider 東松照明: if his name has a legally defined reading (a), it's likely to be とうまつ てるあき (though I don't claim to know this for sure); but in any non-legalistic, non-perverse way, the real-world correct reading (b) has for the last forty-plus years been とうまつ しょうめい. And 東松's case is pretty routine, I think. -- Hoary 13:58, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

WP:FU

The comment below was originally posted on my talk page and brought here --Kusunose 07:40, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

"(diff) (hist) . . Japanese name‎; 11:53 . . (-389) . . Kusunose (Talk | contribs | block) (→Japanese names in English - removed Image:SugorokuMutou.PNG. It does not meet WP:FU)"

It is fair use. And, I have no free alternative in the context of "Sugoroku Mutou." Now, why don't you find me a replacement picture in the context of "Japanese names," and I will accept the removal of the picture? WhisperToMe 04:45, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

No, it is not. You can discuss "Sugoroku Mutou"'s name without a picture. To know how differently he is named in different media, readers do not have to know how he looks. It's just decorative. --Kusunose 07:40, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually, the point was that the characters' name was printed, in English, in that order (Didn't you notice the English-language text?) - the point was to illustrate the typical naming order used in English-language translated manga (Hey, manga is a visual medium, so it kinda makes sense to show a manga panel to illustrate this, doesn't it?). Either keep the image, or ask me to find a more suitable example (e.g. a page of a manga series listing characters by name) WhisperToMe 07:37, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

You don't need to "quote" an entire panel just for a text. In my opinion, that's excessive; just providing a citation is enough. By the way, the image lacks fair use rationale so it may be speedy deleted. --Kusunose 13:35, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Western middle names?

The page says that «middle names are not recognized in Japan in the Western sense». What are middle names in Western sense? There's no two identical, or even similar, "western" person naming traditions.

I suggest that the article is chnaged to something like: «Middle names are not recognized in Japan in the U.S. sense.» But then it would beg the question «Why should they?» and some troll might even add, for completeness sake, that:

«Patronymics are not recognized in Japan in the Slavic or Icelandic sense; hyphenated given names are not recognized in Japan in the French or Scandinavian sense; father/mother surname order is not an issue in Japan in the Spanish or Portuguese sense; "de" vs. "De" surname sorting issues are not relevant in Japan in the Belgian sense.» Etc. ;-)

The right thing to do is to remove the sentence altoghether. It is already explained that Japanese names typically consists of surname and given name: two words, nothing in the middle.

194.65.103.1 12:16, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

If the right thing to do is remove it, please do. See Wikipedia:Be bold. Fg2 12:42, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Ah, but the "middle name", if you have one, comes last in Japan. Bendono 13:25, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Shouldn't that then be changed in the aforementioned sentence? I too, thought that the sentence regarding middle names was not very clear to say the least. I myself haven't the reference or resource to justify changing it. Would someone with the right information be thus obliged? Kei Yuki (talk) 09:51, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

References

Two references are poorly displayed (i.e., just the bracketed number), and one is omitted (#3). I do not know how to correct them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Skaizun (talk • contribs) 14:57, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Databases

In many databases, westerners typicly flip the order of the commonly used firstname, lastname format to make it lastname, firstnam. What format is used in japanise databases?

Last name, first name format. Oda Mari (talk) 07:47, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Though, since it's a database, as long as you have separate fields for first name and last name, you can have the output in either order. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 08:15, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, you are right, Nihonjoe. I thought of the index of reference books. Ha ha ha. Oda Mari (talk) 14:05, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Image issues

The image can't be seen in a white-on-black browser because it is black-on-transparent. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.167.69.31 (talk) 14:32, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Which image? And why are you forcing the background to be black in your browser? ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 03:31, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Image:Yamada-vertical.svg (the name "Yamada Taro") has a transparent background. The other question is beyond me. Fg2 (talk) 03:38, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Name Construction

I think it would be a good idea to list some general rules about how Japanese names are constructed. I have a ton of questions about Japanese names. Can a noun by itself be used as a name? How are word combinations constructed? Is it possible to just stick two nouns together and 'use' it as a name? I have searched everywhere and have found no such rules.202.33.24.131 (talk) 00:09, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

I would also like to see general rules about name construction. It would be a very informative addition in my opinion. --DavidD4scnrt (talk) 05:21, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. In particular, I would like to know whether there is any tradition in Japan (as there is in the West) of taking personal names based on historic or cultural associations. (For example, naming a boy Alexander recalls Alexander the Great; is there any similar association involved in naming a boy Hiroshi?) -Agur bar Jacé (talk) 03:54, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

history

This section needs to be created and developed, specifically about naming, or lack thereof, prior to the 1870s. Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 07:56, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Western name order applies to fictional characters?

I remember reading something from a guidelines page here - I think it belonged to the Naruto portal page, which was deleted for some reason. It said that Western name order (first-last) applies to fictional characters created after 1868, the date of the Meiji restoration. Would someone be able to find a reference for this? --SpyHunter29 (talk) 01:48, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

I suggest asking at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (Japan-related articles). That talk page is very active and a reader can probably answer your question or give you a better suggestion where to look. Best regards, Fg2 (talk) 06:45, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

If a fictional characters was "born" in 1868 or later (meaning the character's birthday, not when the creator of the character created the character), then their name should be written in first-last order. If the character was "born" prior to 1868, then Japanese order is used. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 07:28, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Japanese names in languages other than English

Hello, I was wondering if someone here may be able to answer this question and add it to the article.

I recently found out that Chinese names are often pronounced with Japanese readings of the characters with some exceptions, as in the following examples:

• Hú Jǐntāo (胡錦濤) is Ko Kintō
• Chiang Kai-shek (蒋介石) is Shō Kaiseki
• Kǒng Zǐ (孔子) is Kōshi

But Zhāng Zǐyí (章子怡) is Chan Tsiī and Chén Dàomíng (陳道明) is Chen Daomin

Locations also seem to be the same way: Chéngdū (成都) is Seito, Tiānjīn (天津) is Tenshin, and Shíjiāzhuāng (石家荘) is Sekkasō]], BUT Qīngdǎo (青島) is Chintao, and Shànghăi (上海) is Shanhai.

But, when it comes to Korean names, it seems to be almost always a kanazation of Korean, as in:

• Lee Myung-bak (李明博) is I Myonbaku
• Bak Eun-sik (朴殷植) is Paku Unshiku

And at most, Japanese articles list both Korean and Japanese pronunciations, as in Sejong the Great (世宗) listed as both "Sejon" and "Seisō". Locations also are usually in Korean with Japanese pronunciations coexisting with Korean pronunciations at best, as how Busan (釜山) is Pusan or Fuzan and Gwangju (光州) is Kuanju or Kōshū.

Basically, what I'm getting at here, is how do other languages approach Japanese names? Common Japanese names seem rather long compared to Chinese and Korean names, and a simple romanization of Chinese and Korean articles gives the following, but I'd just like to have some confirmation on whether this is correct.

• Jun'ichirō Koizumi (小泉純一郎)
  • C: 小泉纯一郎 (Xiǎoquán Chúnyīláng)
  • K:고이즈미 준이치로 (Goijeumi Junichiro)
• Date Masamune (伊達政宗)
  • C: 伊达政宗 (Yīdá Zhèngzōng)
  • K: 다테 마사무네 (Date Masamune)
• Minamoto no Yoritomo (源頼朝)
  • C: 源赖朝 (Yuán Làizhāo)
  • K: 미나모토노 요리토모 (Minamotono Yoritomo)

-Nameneko (talk) 21:25, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

You might have better luck asking at the reference desk with this question. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 18:28, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

I might be a bit late, but the Chinese, Japanese and Korean Wikipedias have very detailed dedicated articles on the topic: zh:漢字使用國間專有名詞互譯; ja:中国語における外国固有名詞の表記; ko:한자 사용국 간 고유 명사 표기. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 16:56, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

Given the diversity of Chinese and phonological differences, it is really difficult to transliterate names. In the cases of Hu Jintao and Confucious, Japanese readings are predominant. Basically, personal and places names are read in the Japanese way unless they are well-known (e.g. Qingdao and Shanghai).--Shinkansen Fan (talk) 06:22, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

A few questions

1. What does the Portuguese name Licínio become in Japanese?

2. In the West, there are people with 3, 4, 5, and more names. Considering the Japanese say their surname before the given name, how does one correctly say such names in the language? 84.90.102.4 (talk) 22:19, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

1. It would be rendered using katakana to approximate the phonics of the name. Perhaps something like リチニオ.

2. Western name order for foreigners is typically used in newspapers, etc. --ChrisRuvolo (t) 23:06, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

It would actually be pronounced リシニユ or リシニウ, which is how it would be pronounced (at least in Brasil, anyway). The "c" is not pronounced as it is in Italian, but is pronounced as an "sh" sound. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 23:26, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, I was guessing at the proper pronunciation. --ChrisRuvolo (t) 23:33, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

I have some Brasilian friends, so I just asked them to say the name a few times. ^_^ ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 18:25, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Thank you to the both of you. I used a site that rendered the name as リシニアウ for some odd reason and thought that couldn't be right. But both ways are correct (リシニユ and リシニウ), right? About the order of the names, the Japanese one can too be used for foreigner names. And what troubles me in that is how do you write a long name in that order. Let's say a 3-word name, what would be the result? Surname + Middle name + Given name?? 84.90.102.4 (talk) 17:10, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

For non-Japanese names, it is extremely uncommon for them to be said any way other than Western order. It would likely confuse people to say it in anything but Western order, too. We aren't here to argue with you over which way you think it can be written. You asked, and we replied. If you don't want to take our advice, that's your choice, but don't start arguing with us about it. As for both ways (リシニユ and リシニウ) being correct, yes, depending on regional pronunciation. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 18:25, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

OK, I got it the first time. I was just trying to understand how it would result but since it's very confusing, I'll leave that. On another note, what if I just care about the surname and the given name, much like how most Japanese names are constructed? Sure it would still be confusing because of the order switch, but when you classify it as such, are you referring to the Japanese people, non-Japanese people, or both? 84.90.102.4 (talk) 18:32, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Also, does the Portuguese name Torga render as トーガ or トルガ?

BTW, if there's a set of rules to guide in these conversions, could you please point them at me? 84.90.102.4 (talk) 19:00, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

The second one is how it would be pronounced by Japanese due to the rolled "r". I don't have any rules to point you at as there are no hard-and-fast rules for how non-Japanese names are rendered in Japanese. It's usually by pronunciation, but can be preference. For instance, I have a friend named "Patrick" who prefers パチクas opposed to the more common パトリク or パトリック.

I don't understand your other question, though (the one above). Please rephrase it. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 19:45, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Thx for the info. =)

In the other question, I was asking if even a Western 2-word name (surname + first name) is subject to the same ordering scheme. I was also trying to clear your classification of "Japanese order for Western names confusing" in the matter of to who such order is confusing. 84.90.102.4 (talk) 21:18, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Western names are always in Western order. Putting them in Japanese order will be confusing to both Japanese and Western people; there's just no reason to do it. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 23:37, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

OK, thanks once more for all the info you provided. 84.90.102.4 (talk) 12:14, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Kana personal names and government registration

Given that some people choose to have their children's Japanese given names are written entirely in hiragana, does the government prohibit naming using the ゐ and ゑ kanas? Given that there are a plethora of laws that prohibit using obscure and archaic kanji that no one can (probably) recognize (such as 龘 and 齉), would the laws also prohibit the use of archaic kana for the same reason? -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 16:49, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

Quote from 戸籍法施行規則:

“ 第六十条

　戸籍法第五十条第二項の常用平易な文字は、次に掲げるものとする。
一　常用漢字表（平成二十二年内閣告示第二号）に掲げる漢字（括弧書きが添えられているものについては、括弧の外のものに限る。）
二　別表第二に掲げる漢字
三　片仮名又は平仮名（変体仮名を除く。）

”

The ministerial ordinance only prohibits use of hentaigana. So you can use ゐ and ゑ. --Nanshu (talk) 11:28, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Surname extinction?

The following unsourced passage, which was added by Nbarth (talk · contribs)[1], is inaccurate.

“ This diversity is in stark contrast to the situation with Korean names (250 names, of which 3 comprise almost half the population) and Chinese surnames (a few hundred common, 20 comprise half the population), where the long history of surname usage has led to surname extinction. By contrast, modern Japanese family names date only to the 19th century, following the Meiji restoration, and thus have not yet undergone surname extinction for as long. ”

The large number of Japanese surnames cannot solely be attributed to the fact that they do not undergo surname extinction. If this theory is true, the Chinese and Koreans must have a very large number of surnames in the past, which we know is not true. Rather it should be attributed to creativity of Japanese surnames. For a long period of time, branch families often chose new myōji in Japan, which resulted in surname expansion. In contrast, as Chinese surnames (including Koreans') represent lineages, new surnames were not created except for China in the distant past. The Japanese counterpart of Chinese surnames is uji. Few families had uji and new uji (e.g. Toyotomi) were rarely created. As a result, uji did undergo surname extinction, and that is one of the reasons why uji were not chosen as modern family names. --Nanshu (talk) 11:28, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

This is a good point – thanks!

While surname extinction has occurred in (Han) China (from almost 12,000 identified in the past to a bit over 3,000 now – see ref (Ruofu et. al. 1992) I’ve added) this is only part of the story, and a relatively minor one. The productivity of Japanese surnames is also significant, and in fact (as you indicate) much more significant (over 100,000 Japanese names, compared to about 10,000 in all of Chinese history). A further factor, noted by Ruofu et. al., is that Japanese names came into use when there was already a very large population, rather than dating to a much smaller ancestral population.

In this edit, I’ve re-written the lede to correct and elaborate the history and give better priority – “surname extinction” is now a minor note, rather than (incorrectly) the main story. How does it look?

—Nils von Barth (nbarth) (talk) 10:56, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Family name branching was very common and that is why most family names derived from place names in Japan. I think we should reword that passage. It is misleading and not really true. Japanese family names have a complex history, from the uji and kabane system of gozoku to the present day. Many commoners did have family names even before the official decree, instead of using "(personal name) from (place name)", "(personal name) doing (occupation)", "(personal name)'s (relationship)", and such. --Shinkansen Fan (talk) 05:16, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Name dictionaries

• A dictionary of first names

By Patrick Hanks, Kate Hardcastle, Flavia Hodges

Appendix 8 (on Google Books) mentions meanings of several Japanese names. Some names for girls actually originate from English WhisperToMe (talk) 05:06, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Japanese names in Chinese languages

QUOTE:
Japanese names in Chinese languages
Question book-new.svg This section does not cite any references or sources. (February 2012)

In Chinese speaking communities, Japanese names are considered in the form of Chinese characters, but not pronunciation. When referring to a Japanese person, the characters in his name will be spoken as in the Chinese language used. For example, in a Mandarin speech, 山田 太郎 (Yamada Tarō) will become "Shāntián Tàiláng", while 鳩山　由紀夫 (Hatoyama Yukio) will become "Jiūshān Yóujìfū". As a result, a Japanese person without adequate knowledge of Chinese would not understand their name when it is spoken in Chinese.
/QUOTE

It says 「This section does not cite any references or sources.」
But it can be known from common sense, maybe no one is writing about it and so can't be sourced into that section, as majority peoples (in China, Korea and Japan) knows that fact.

Written by Muhammad Nur Hidayat / Hidayatsu on 10:36 PM - 27 November 2012 (+8). (Just call me Yacchan, thanks)
-- 빛다얕 /Muhammad Nur Hidayat /喜达亚 ^{(talk | contribs | email)} 14:36, 27 November 2012 (UTC)