Talk:Zadar

Crystal night

Why this article is so subjective? There's vanished story about "Crystal night in Zadar" when on the 2nd of May 1991. Croats did horrible ethnic cleansing of 11 000 of Serbs and crashing Serb houses and shops, including cafe "Time out" of basketball player Serb ethnicity Marko Popovic (who today plays for Croat team). http://www.jadovno.com/intervjui-reportaze/articles/zaboravljena-zadarska-kristalna-noc.html 79.175.102.27 (talk) 16:58, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Austrian policy

I am curious why Grifter72 changed "Under the Austrian Empire Zadar was subject to the same policy" to "After Italian unification, under the Austrian Empire Zadar was subject to the same policy" The policy was enacted some years before the completion of Italian unification, as is shown by the quote that Silvio1973 provided from Emperor Franz Joseph. While the explicit policy may have been inspired by growing Italian nationalism, that should be stated and shown by citation, and not by an implied assumption. Congruity in time is not causation ([[David Hume#Causation|Hume). The Austrian policy is only unusual for having been so explicitly stated. Most conquerors throughout history have employed a similar policy, look, for example, at the French policy in the Languedoc, Brittany and Normandy. --Bejnar (talk) 16:54, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Before Italian unification, Austrian political in Dalmatia was pro italian with the Autonomist Party, because Italian nationalism was considered less dangerous that the Croatian one. Hungarians (pro-Croatians) supported instead union of Dalmatia with Croatia People's_Party_(Kingdom_of_Dalmatia). --Grifter72 (talk) 17:54, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Actually, that does not address the issue at all. The Austrians are not political parties. Also, it certainly does not provide a citation. --Bejnar (talk) 20:13, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

I linked Treccani... if you understeand Italian: "Negli anni Cinquanta e Sessanta, nel dibattito legato alle riforme costituzionali dell'Impero asburgico, i Croati, sostenuti dagli Ungheresi, aprirono una vivace polemica chiedendo l'unione della Dalmazia alla Croazia. Costituita nel 1861 la Dieta di Zara, si sarebbero confrontati al suo interno due partiti, l'autonomista e l'annessionista, l'uno sostenitore di una provincia autonoma all'interno della cornice asburgica, l'altro favorevole alla sua unione con la Croazia e la Slavonia in un'unica entità politico-amministrativa. Lo scontro era destinato a concludersi in un primo tempo con la vittoria dei Dalmati italiani, i quali avevano in quel momento il sostegno di Vienna ed erano favoriti dai provvedimenti insiti nella patente del febbraio 1861. Da parte dell'elemento croato era forte la volontà - sia in Dalmazia, sia in Croazia e Slavonia - di intervenire nella realtà politica ottenendo una trasformazione federale della monarchia." --Grifter72 (talk) 21:08, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Reading the above quotation, and not the source, it was still not the unification of Italy that caused the change in policy. It looks as though it was Croatian pressure that made the change, unless I am misreading: Da parte dell'elemento croato era forte la volontà - sia in Dalmazia, sia in Croazia e Slavonia - di intervenire nella realtà politica ottenendo una trasformazione federale della monarchia. Tale tendenza era diffusa soprattutto negli strati colti della popolazione, cioè preti e insegnanti, e le sempre più numerose sale di lettura esercitavano una forte influenza, in senso nazionale, tra le popolazioni dei centri minori. --Bejnar (talk) 21:20, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes, this is not directly indicated but Italian unification happened between 1861 and 1870 (Rome). Before Vienna was for the Dalmatian autonomists (this is reported by Treccani); on November 1866 Franz Joseph did is declaration against Italian elements in Dalmatia, Tyrol and Istria.--Grifter72 (talk) 21:54, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Fellas, you're in danger of being too Italo-centric in your thinking. The main reason why Austria backed Italians before 1866 (and yes, there was a reason other than charm ;)) was that Slavs were lobbying for union with the Kingdom of Croatia - which was part of the Hungarian crown. Austria did not want to lose its littoral provinces to Hungary. So it was the threat of Hungary that caused Vienna to back Italians (and that disappeared after the Compromise of 1867), whereas it was the threat of Prussia that caused Vienna to back Slavs. -- Director (talk) 22:03, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes Director, this is one of the causes but remember that Franz Joseph also cited South Tyrol. --Grifter72 (talk) 22:21, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

As I said, the cause behind an explicitly "anti-Italian" policy was the Austro-Prussian War and the threat of Bismarck. I am pointing out in addition that the cause behind the pro-Italian policy was the Croatian/Hungarian push for Dalmatia as a historic part of the "Triune Kingdom of Dalmatia, Croatia and Slavonia" that was part of the Hungarian crown since its annexation or personal union (depending who you ask) of 1102. -- Director (talk) 23:44, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

• So, based on these comments and the quote from Treccani, it seems that there is agreement that it wasn't just Italian unification driving the policy, thus it is better to leave out Italian unification in that sentence, and leave causation unstated. --Bejnar (talk) 04:32, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

I do not completely agree. I replaced "Italian unification" with "1866" that gives to everyone a possibility of an interpretation.--Grifter72 (talk) 07:28, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Come on Grifter72. This still create a link of causation.

• There are not so many relevant things about Italy and the Italians happening those years.
• Also I disagree on the organic matter. It is certainly true the policy of the Austrians become more evident in the second part of the 19th century but it was enforced well before. There is no proof of that and this is the reason why I am not insisting to put it in the text but the sharp decrease of Italian speaking people in Dalmatia in the period 1800 - 1850 are a demonstration of that. Again this is not a source and I do not insist on it, but also I am against putting a link of casuality unless does not sustained by a serious scholar or tertiary source.

However, I have put During the second part of the 19th century to reach consensus.

Also, I do not like the cn because it looks the entire sentence require a source. Do we need sources for things so evident? If the answer is yes I will provide one. And I do not understand why the reference to Franz Joseph has been removed from the text. This is EXTREMELY relevant. --Silvio1973 (talk) 16:15, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

I disagree on that point. Why is he personally relevant? -- Director (talk) 19:00, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

The quote is evidence of the policy and as such belongs in a Note, not in the text. Hardly ever is a quote appropriate in an encyclopedia main text. --Bejnar (talk) 04:52, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

It's relevant because makes evident how clear was the policy of the Austrian Empire. However I see the point about the appropriateness of putting the quote in the main text. --Silvio1973 (talk) 10:11, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

19th C. conflict between Italians and Croatians

Can I have an explanation about this thing of This compound sentence lacks a parallel structure? Thank you. --Silvio1973 (talk) 10:11, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

The sentence in question is: Until the beginning of the century it had been of moderate intensity and mainly of a class nature (under Venetian rule the Italians were employed in the most profitable activities, such as trade and administration), but with the development of the modern concept of national identity across Europe, national conflicts start to mark the political life of Zadar. The subject of the first part is it namely conflict between Italian and Croatian communities, the subject of the second part is national conflicts. I suspect that national conflicts is a euphemism for something else, since it does not mean "conflicts between nations". The sentence would have a parallel structure if the second half dealt with what the non-class nature of the altered conflict was, and dealt with the new "level of intensity" if there was one. If not, then intensity doesn't belong in the sentence. Parallel would be: The conflict was of X intensity and based on unequal opportunities in the workplace, but after Y events, the conflict was of Z intensity and based on differing political goals. Maybe shorter sentences would help. However it is rewritten, I hope that someone will have an appropriate citation to substantiate the data. --Bejnar (talk) 10:40, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

OK, I will re-write the sentence to give it a parallel structure. National conflicts it is not an euphemism for something else. And I will add an appropriate citation to sustain the content of this sentence.

--Silvio1973 (talk) 04:24, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

The sentence has been rewritten. I have also removed from the text the reference to the Panslavism. I cannot justify with a valid source other than the book from Monzali but this book is already quoted twice in this article and cannot be resonably used in support of a third statement. --Silvio1973 (talk) 12:21, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

First newspaper

Do you all want Il Regio Dalmata - Kraglski Dalmatin to be discussed under "19th Century" or under "Culture"? Right now almost the exact same text is duplicated in the article. --Bejnar (talk) 11:45, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

I prefer in "Culture". There were two other newspapers published in Zadar in that years. From 1832 "La Gazzetta di Zara" (in Italian) and from 1844 the "Zora Dalmatinska" (in Croat): http://antunbauer.mdc.hr/index.php/enwiki/static/bibliografije/V_1

--Grifter72 (talk) 14:45, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Ok to put under "Culture".

--Silvio1973 (talk) 04:21, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Complete list of newspapers published in Zadar in XIX century:

• Il Regio Dalmata – Kraglski Dalmatin (1806-1810) - In Italian and Croatian.
• Gazzetta di Zara (1833-1846) - In Italian.
• Zora Dalmatinska (1844-1846) - In Croatian.
• La Dalmazia (1845-1847) - In Italian.
• Osservatore Dalmato (1849-1853) - In Italian.
• Glasnik dalmatinski (1849-1866) - In Croatian.
• La voce Dalmatica (1860-1863) - In Italian.
• Il Nazionale (1862-1920) - In Italian from 1862 to 1876, then in Croatian with the name Narodni List (still living in Zadar, from 1946).
• Il Dalmata (1865-1916) - In Italian (still living from 1950, today printed in Italy).
• Hrvatska (1884-1897) - In Croatian.
• Vuk (1885) - In Croatian.
• Iskra (1891-1894) - In Croatian.--Presbite (talk) 11:12, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Some changes

• Jurai Dalmatinac, Lucijan Vranjanin and Frane Vranjanin names changed to their equivalent romance versions. This is to put the names in accordance with the the names used in the relevant articles in en:wiki. If some editor suppose the slaviks name should be used in the Zadar's articles, he/she is welcome to justify that with appropriate sourcing (but in the relevant articles first).
• I changed the wording, because Giorgio da Sebenico is not a renaissance man but an architect and sculptor.
• Giorgio da Sebenico was probably born in Zadar.

--Silvio1973 (talk) 05:05, 21 March 2012 (UTC)