Talk:Lancashire/Archive 1

• NOTE All unsigned edits will be reverted to the last signed edit, (unless they actually ADD to the knowlege within the article). Skull 'n' Femurs 23:31, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Mediation

The mediation case discussed at Talk:Traditional_counties_of_England#Mediation also refers to this page. --Fasten 14:33, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Lists of Places in Lancashire

The current list in the Settlements section of the article is in a bit of a state: it purports to list the main townships in Lancashire, whilst still having room for Knott End-on-Sea, Shaw and Crompton and Brindle (an animal coat colouring, it appears!). It's also a hopeless mess of places in the current county, and those in the pre-1974 county, with no distinction given.

My first reaction would be to ditch the list entirely and simply redirect to List of places in Lancashire; however, this only lists those places in the ceremonial county, and I think there is a need for a list of places that were within the pre-1974 boundary in addition. So here are my six preferred options (in descending order of my personal preference):

1. redirect to List of places in Lancashire; include separately at the bottom of that a list of those places in the pre-1974 county.
2. redirect to List of places in Lancashire; with the pre-1974 places in-line but demarcated by asterisk.
3. create a new list of those places in the pre-1974 county under a clear title, redirect to both lists (ie, shunt the current list to a new page of its own and tidy it up). Make the difference between the lists clear in the article.
4. demarcate pre-1974 places by asterisk in the current list, prune back to places over a certain population figure
5. demarcate pre-1974 places by asterisk in the current list, no pruning.
6. leave everything as it is.

For comparison, at the Yorkshire article, they redirect to the List of places in Yorkshire page which is a list of all the places in the pre-1974 boundary (with no demarcation).

There's similar confusion in the [[Category:Towns in Lancashire]] which currently contains Wigan etc.; can I suggest we restrict inclusion in those categories to those places in the current ceremonial county, and say so at the top (much like the current List of places in Lancashire)?

All thoughts and suggestions welcome. Aquilina 16:29, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

I would welcome the changes for one. I think they bring the page in line with other counties (e.g. Yorkshire) like you say. Furthermore, a distinction should definiately be made between the pre and post 1974 local government reformed counties. The Wikipedia encyclopedic |Official Naming Conventions stipulate that their must be a distinction and marked context between the two differing versions of Lancashire. I would wholly concur with Aquilina proposals, I should imagine most users would also be in agreement, and not mind the changes which I believe would improve the article. I vote for number 1 with preference, or 2 failing that. Hope that helps, thanks Jhamez84 22:13, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

I vote 4, subject to my demarcation of settlements in Yorkshire. I think we need a list of the major towns in Lancashire on the main page, with a more detailed list on a separate page. 86.2.0.204 09:38, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

• I'd vote first for 1, or if that is ruled out then 3. I am a little wary of the option involving pruning based on population. Important events often occur in places of low population, and I think it will prove awkward later if we place restrictions on links to places in Lancashire simply because few people live there. I can understand the point of the list becoming over-large and unwieldy at some point in the future, but perhaps a better way of categorising is the solution, not restriction of content? Road Wizard 17:20, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

• Support 5 - there's no need to prune - it's all valuable information and it shouldn't be lost. Otherwise support 2. Stringops 17:28, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your suggestions thus far. Looking back, I wasn't very clear in what I said above - apologies. What I meant by "pruning" was the following - have a population or some such limit just for the list in the Lancashire article (which is meant to be a quick overview of the county), and keep the Knott-End-On-Seas for the full list on a separate page. Generally, there seems to be support for sme sort of demarcation - I'll have a go at a trial scheme now, and please leave your suggestions and comments on it here! Aquilina 16:13, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

• I've had a go at this - comments welcome. Lancsalot 15:41, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Overlay

When I look at the Lancashire page on a 1024x768 screen I notice that the "Duchy Palatine of Lancaster" info box overlays onto the Settlements' section, so that some of the Settlements' information is obscured. Is anyone else having this problem, or is it just me? Road Wizard 12:00, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I also notice that on the same size screen 'edit' buttons for "Industry", "See also" and "Rejected options for change" also appear in the middle of the Industry section's text. As this is next to the "Duchy Palatine of Lancaster" box, I am wondering if the box has been coded correctly. Road Wizard 12:08, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Traditional vs administrative counties

It is an established fact that traditional and administrative counties have separate legal identities. This has been confirmed by the government on numerous occasions eg.

"The new county boundaries are administrative areas, and will not alter the traditional boundaries of counties, nor is it intended that the loyalties of people living in them will change despite the different names adopted by the new administrative counties." Government Statement quoted in The Times 1st April 1974

Michael Portillo, then Minister of Local Government and Inner Cities, in a reply of 11 July 1990 to a letter about the status of the County of Avon wrote “I can confirm that the government still stands by the statement ..... that the local authority areas and boundaries introduced in April 1974 do not alter the traditional boundaries of counties. The 1974 arrangements are entirely administrative, and need not affect long-standing loyalties and affinities.”

This article needs to differentiate clearly between the two. 84.9.x.x is trying to push a POV that the traditional county of Lancashire no longer exists. This is factually incorrect. Lancsalot 11:15, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Rubbish.--84.9.194.132 11:42, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Stop the edit war now

Before making any further edits, re-read the agreed naming conventions for this sort of situation. One of the agreed acceptable examples is the following:

Southwark is a village in the London Borough of Southwark in Greater London. It is in the traditional borders of Surrey.

Please merely substitute the relevant town names and county names into the above template; eg

Ashton-under-Lyne is a town in the metropolitan borough of Tameside in Greater Manchester. It is in the traditional borders of Lancashire.

That's the agreed wording, formed after an unbelievable amount of strife and argument; please use it to the letter wherever possible. Aquilina 12:16, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

It was formed after a group of bullied everyone else. Your version does not conform to the standard. The traditional counies do not exist. They do not hav eborders so nothing can be within them. It is perfectly clear, places that in the past have been in Lancashire but now are not, are simply no longer in Lancashire. It's just a fantsy of some reactionary regrsives.--84.9.210.236 12:21, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

I regard myself to have been born in, and currently reside in Greater Manchester rather than Lancashire. However, I don't see what the problem is with mentioning that a location or event happened within the traditional boundaries of Lancashire, especially when such an event happened or a location was built at a time when it was inside the traditional boundaries. Sprouty76 13:07, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Greater Manchester was abolished in 1986. Which cricket team do you support? Lancsalot 13:14, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Greater Manchester was no more abolished in 1986 than Lancashire was in 1976. Greater Manchester County Council was abolished but the administrative county of Greater Manchester certainly still exists. Sprouty76 13:37, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

I know it still exists as a ceremonial county but all this means is that there is a Lord-Lieutenant of Greater Manchester. The majority of people probably don't even know what a L-L is, let alone which one covers their particular locality. Lancsalot 14:43, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

As I've said below, it exists in legislation as the collection of quasi-unitary authority metropolitan boroughs that used to fall under that council's jurisdiction. All official references to Bury for example will be to Bury, Greater Manchester and never to Bury, Lancashire - even if no reference is made to the Lord Lieutenancy per se. Aquilina 14:49, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

It's pretty obvious that 84.9 is a serial vandal and troublemaker and should be banned forthwith. How can the traditional counties be a fantasy of reactionaries and regressives when their continued legal existence has been confirmed several times by the government? Given this fact, why the wording "within the traditional borders of Lancashire" rather than "in the traditional county of Lancashire"? And why can we not make clear that the post-1974 counties are administrative only, as the government has confirmed? Lancsalot 12:47, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

I have had several wars with this particular user, who starts calling everyone "CountyWatch vandals". I agree that your wording is better and there should be a certain degree of flexibility. Given that we have articles about traditional counties where we call them as such it seems petty not to allow the phrase to be used in articles that refer to them. Owain (talk) 15:10, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

The current situation

I'd like to collect a few comments together to give people entering this debate on WP for the firet time a taste of what is going on. I'm not the greatest expert on these issues, but I've dealt with them quite a lot.

1. 84.9.x.x is banned - it is the IP of User:Irate = User:IanDavies = User:Pick-A-Low = ... As a banned user, any edits he makes are automatically vandalism, and may be reverted on sight by any user.

1. All the required information on how we refer to the "traditional" (I prefer ancinet and geographic, or historic, as per the Office of National Statistics) county is on this page, with the discussions preceding the convention here. For anyone wishing to delve further into this, this is required reading. The crux is that as the post-1974 counties have legal definition and standing they are our primary reference frame. However, due to the long history of previous borders we may in addition refer to those. The agreed formulation was that we use the template "X lies in the traditional borders of Y" (or even better "Z lies in the pre-XXXX borders of Y" - borders are in a constant state of flux, so it is best to be precise and add a date)

1. Reliable sources are very hard to come by - where possible use the albeit ambiguous wording of the Local Government Acts relevant.

1. The counties of Greater Manchester, Merseyside etc. do still exists - only their councils were abolished in the 1980's. They remain as ceremonial counties and as collections of their constituent metropolitan boroughs.

1. "administrative counties" as a technical term no longer exists, and it is best not to use this term. The word "county" has myriad clashing and contradictory uses, but it is the term used in the legislature, and should be the term we use here in all its ambiguity. The article Traditional counties of the British Isles explains some of this. You could use the formulation "counties used for administrative purposes", but aren't all counties used for that to some degree? The best way to specify a county is by the date its borders were established, or by the act which established them.

1. WP:V is one of the cornerstones of Wikipedia; if content is challenged you must be able to quote sources explicitly. The famous Portillo letter is one example - this is referred to in may third-hand accounts, but I have never seen its full text in an impartial source. Until this is found, accoridng to WP:V we cannont use it as an informaiton source.

Hope that all helps, Aquilina 13:34, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for that. In relation to your last point, how about the 1st statement quoted from The Times 1 April 1974? Or this debate from Hansard, which mentions both the 1974 statement and the Portillo letter (col 116)? Lancsalot 14:55, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Those sources have been brought up in debate before (I'll try and find the link) - it's interesting, but it's only a statement from a parliamentary under-secretary, and most importantly it does not seem it was actually acted upon - no official statement was drafted, or legislation passed. It is fine to use this source to say that the question was debated and that the informal answer given was as quoted in Hansard, but we cannot say anything stronger than that. It would, however, be interesting to write to the MP concerend and verify the basis for his remarks, and see if the sources can be chased up. The full text of the Portillo letter would be allow a lot of statements in the articles to be strengthened, also; anything other than primary sources will tend to be strongly challenged on this topic. Aquilina 15:10, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

The only people who think you not talk out of your arse are you equally dim witted bullies and firend. You lot would know a rational argument if you saw one. You think that just shouting I'm right all the time is an argument. It just a pit such badly educated idnivduals decide to place there ignorance all over Wikipedia. It is affirming their dellusions and is not psycologicaly ggood for such weak minded people.--87.75.131.131 15:18, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Sports Teams In Lancashire

In the list of sports teams in Lancashire, it currently lists Bury, Rochdale and Wigan Athletic. However, these are currently in Greater Manchester. If we wanted to use the traditional definition of Lancashire, then the statement that "Lancashire is home to one Premier League clubs" is incorrect as Blackburn, Wigan and Bolton all meet that criterion and that's excluding the old County Boroughs of Manchester and Liverpool.

As far as I can tell, either Wigan, Bury and Rochdale should be removed from the list, or the "one Premier League club" statement should be amended to include at least Wigan, Bolton and Blackburn and maybe also Liverpool, Everton, Manchester United and Manchester City.

Also, the article mentions that Lancashire is responsible for 7 European Cups, 5 of which were won by Liverpool and 2 by Manchester United. Neither are currently in Lancashire and both were in separate County boroughs. The same problem applies in the league and cup wins.

Anybody got any thoughts? Sprouty76 12:37, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

You are looking at a vandalised version. The previous version, listing all the teams in the traditional county, is the agreed version. Lancsalot 12:49, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, there's no definition of Lancashire that only has one current Premier League team in it. Sprouty76 12:54, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Ermm... have a quick look at Greater Manchester - Bolton and Wigan are just as much part of Greater Manchester as Rochdale, Oldham and Bury, and so should be included if and only if they are too. Blackburn was never part of Greater Manchester however, and would be on the list under any definition!

Either way, I'd say leave all the teams in for now, but demarcate them in a similar way to the list of settlements higher up the article. If that's causes general consternation, we can try and think something better up on this talk page. I've left some further notes on this page on writing about counties on Wikipedia - I hope they help! Aquilina 13:43, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh yeah, I know Bolton and Wigan are in GM and Blackburn is in Lancashire. My point was about the Premier League though, so Rochdale, Bury and Oldham don't enter into it. I was pointing out that neither the traditional boundaries of Lancashire, nor the current boundaries leave Lancashire with only the one team in the Premier League. However, I hadn't realised when I first commented that the page had been vandalised - it has since been reverted to a form which makes sense in that regard and which makes this whole thread obsolete! Although, is it too soon to add Accrington Stanley to the list? Sprouty76 13:49, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I was getting mixed up. My reference to there being more than one Premier League team in Lancashire was connected to the list of teams in Lancashire containing Wigan as well as Blackburn.