Talk:Christian Science

Edit warring...

Maybe...instead...of continuing this slow-moving edit war...people should discuss what's going on here...may...be...zzzzzzzzzzzz. --Τασουλα (talk) 18:09, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

If people wish, they can ask for a second opinion at WP:FTN. IRWolfie- (talk) 19:02, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

I'll comment here because I have a theory - the mentioning of James Randi as a Sceptic is an obvious attempt to bypass the fact the vast majority of scientific analysis of CS classes it as Pseudo-science. Using Randi is deceptive because although he is someone commonly involved with critical analysis of stuff like this, he is generally classed as a Sceptic rather than a scientist. Wholly inappropriate. --Τασουλα (talk) 19:23, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

As a scientist myself, I have a problem with the continued suggestion that the 'scientific community' would find CS to be a pseudoscience: as though this is some kind of 'universal truth' and scientists who don't go along with this hypothesis are somehow not proper scientists. In fact, science seldom deals in universal truths, or it would hardly be continuously and skeptically trying to disprove its theories and replacing them with others. People contributing are in fact masquerading as scientists and spokespersons for the pseudopersonality 'the scientific community', when they really have very little claim to the name 'scientist' themselves and have few (if any) publications in credible scientific literature. Of course the opinion that CS is a pseudoscience is a valid opinion; but as pointed out by Τασουλα, it is only the opinion of some skeptics, and this should be stated in the article. The reader then has the option of going with the skeptics or formulating some other opinion: an entirely academically acceptable process. Michael J. Mullany (talk) 19:38, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

It should be obvious that CS in itself is not a pseudoscience. It is of course a religion (or a sect or a cult, depending on how one define these), and religions are by their nature not sciences, pseudo- or otherwise. The views of the CS can on the other hand be classified as pseudoscience, as long as the CS claims these views represent actual, verifiable facts. I think we would be hard pressed to find people in the medical community that would support any of the CS faith healing claims as scientific. Thimbleweed (talk) 08:10, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

On the whole, I agree with this point of view, although we would not be hard-pressed to find doctors who refer patients to CS for treatment. From time to time, medical doctors recommend 'alternative' cures when they can offer the patient nothing more; as for instance once a patient is found to be terminally ill. They may recommend special diets, acupuncture, etc. etc., and so much so that such treatments are even mentioned in the Merck Manual of Medical Information (see 2003 edition, pp 1704-1707). A lot of what they mention could be classed as pseudoscience, and it does not include CS. However, I can vouch for the fact that some doctors have recommended Christian Science treatment in similar vein, and may actually have copies of Science and Health in their waiting rooms. Michael J. Mullany (talk) 11:29, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

It depends a bit on where you are I suppose. In my neck of the world (I'm not American) referring patients to CS or any other religious group is unheard of. I think it would get you fired as a doctor if you did such a thing. Thimbleweed (talk) 12:24, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

I grew up in South Africa and now live in New Zealand. I have family in both Australia and the UK. In all these countries as well as the US, doctors may recommend a recourse to alternatives, including prayer, after they are sure they can help a patient no further. May I ask where you are located? Michael J. Mullany (talk) 08:42, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

Theology

In response to [1] (this should have gone on my talk page which you can find here: User_talk:IRWolfie- not my editor review page. The comment was:

"The trouble with the article on Christian Science is that it gives little idea to the reader as to what Christian Science is really about, what it's theology is, what it's Christology is, what it's eschatology is, what it's view of atonement really is, how the word "science" is used in Christian Science (this alone would eliminate the need to call it a pseudoscience). It seems to me that in the case of religion, since "faith" is a departure from standard material reasoning, some basic reliable primary sources should be tolerated in order to give the reader an accurate idea of what Christian Science actually says. I placed the tenets under the theology section because they explain exactly what Christian Scientists actually believe. It seems to me that this could be tolerated in order to be fair to the reader. The article is so unbalanced the way it is, and seems to give only the negative opinions. Is it proper or fair to the reader to only reference negative sources? Does it raise the standard of Wikipedia to use the rules of Wikipedia to prevent any clear idea of the subject of the article to come forth when people are willing to make edits to contribute to the fairness and balance, and frankly, intelligence of the article? I would be willing to make edits, and to use secondary reliable sources, but I have to make sure that you do not have an ax to grind, because I don't want to waste my time. But honestly, this article is one of the worst things I have ever seen on Wikipedia. I truly believe it lowers the standard of Wikipedia in it's present form because it mostly reads as an attack on Christian Science instead of an enlightened explanation. My opinion is that if you tell the truth about something, it will stand on it's own merits, or fall by it's own demerits. But that opportunity is not being given here."

This is something you can freely write about in the theology section. Just make sure to use reliable secondary sources to source the material. This is an encyclopedia, write a good summary of Christian Science theology and source it to some secondary sources. Try to avoid copying and pasting large lists of tenents etc from primary sources, because it's missing the kind of analysis that secondary sources can give and it has the potential for original research which isn't what we want on wikipedia. I did request help from wikiproject christianity in trying to flesh out the theology section with reliable secondary sources. The first three paragraphs are not critical of christian science. IRWolfie- (talk) 15:51, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

The article as it stands is seriously flawed (that's putting it politely). It was a reasonably informative and well-balanced article until a couple of months ago. BTW, it's not true that a Wikipedia article cannot have primary sources - there is nothing in the policies that prohibits them (though they say, rightly, that they should be used with care.)89.100.155.6 (talk) 18:31, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Primary sources should be used with care, not as the basis for an entire article. The article as it stands now is much closer to the actual secondary sources than the previous wording. The article is as it is now is actually in a fairly decent state, though the theology section falls short. IRWolfie- (talk) 19:08, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

The article gives a staccato impression. It features passages with no apparent connection to the preceding text. In parts, it is theologically inaccurate. It is one-sided and dogmatic. It is singularly uninformative about Christian Science itself, as distinct from what its enemies think it is. It contains errors of syntax. There are citation deficiencies. It might pass as a first year undergraduate term paper (just about). And I didn't even get as far as the section on the Church of Christ Scientist.89.100.155.6 (talk) 01:12, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

This is also my impression. However, if you are a Christian Scientist, perhaps you can explain something to me: why do you think that so few Christian Scientists are participating in the editing discussion? Michael J. Mullany (talk) 07:43, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

There are not many Christian Scientists, IRWolfie- (talk) 16:17, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

Then I suggest improving the theology section with secondary sources; unless you cite specifics the section can't be improved. IRWolfie- (talk) 16:17, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

As much as I find CS comical, I have to say that its primary book is a primary source, when it comes to direct religious quotations? That's about as far as I can see it going - anything else would need neutral, well-rounded sources.--Τασουλα (talk) 16:27, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

CS has few secondary sources when it comes to details of its theology, except what has been written by obviously biased anti-sources. One secondary source is Beasley's 'The cross and the crown' written at the time that CS was emerging. Michael J. Mullany (talk) 19:43, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

If something is not covered by recent reliable independent secondary sources, it probably means that it is not particularly noteworthy, at least to people outside the movement. Beasley may be problematic, both because it is dated and because he was a Christian Scientist himself. I'd have to take a closer look to see whether he is reliable or not. Take a look at this addendum to Schoepflin's book and see if you can find anything unbiased and up to date: [2]. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 20:17, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

I haven't been able to verify whether Beasley ever became a Christian Scientist or not. However, his book is obviously in favour of the religion. I have also uncovered a number of recent secondary sources which outline the teachings of CS. When I find time, I'll do something about it. Michael J. Mullany (talk) 22:01, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

I was primarily concerned about the age of the source. I don't know about Christian Science, but there have been significant changes in other religious movements since 1952, such as with the Roman Catholic Church after Vatican II, among others. I hope that Schoepflins's bibliography helps. Good luck! Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 22:09, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

I have read the blurb and ordered the book. It certainly looks like an interesting reference.Michael J. Mullany (talk) 11:36, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Glad you liked it. Happy reading! Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 19:00, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

I have now acquired and read the book. Many thanks for the recommendation. It indeed provides very fair views on Christian Science and its place in modern US society; and evidently by an historian; not a person steeped in CS doctrine. It certainly is a recent secondary source. What I particularly liked was its bold impartiality but that it refrains from using provocative or emotive terms. It does not brand CS as a pseudoscience because this flies in the face of what it claims: a resurgence of interest and belief in spiritual healing. If this is true, then readers who believe in spiritual healing (whether CS or not) are likely to reject our CS article as 'not the truth'. I still vote that we should qualify the pseudoscience statement. After all, the Roman Catholic practice of miracle verification before declaring a dead person a saint, is pseudoscience for similar reasons. However, so as not to put off billions of readers interested in Roman Catholicism, I would avoid the use of the term in that article also. What do you think? Michael J. Mullany (talk) 09:26, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

The difference is that rejecting medical treatment for "spiritual science" healing is pseudoscience. Also it's choice of name was to take from the respect for science. It's not really comparable to the concept of miracles, which does not involve rejecting science or medicine generally, but rather purporting that specific cases of healing that they were unwilling or unable to find an explanation for was caused by God intervening. IRWolfie- (talk) 10:33, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

"Pseudo-science" issue.

The WP policies clearly state that when describing something as "pseudo" there should be in-text attribution when in doubt. Clearly, from the discussion in the Talk section, there is no consensus as to whether CS should, or should not, be described as a pseudoscience. Consequently there should be an in-text attribution for the assertion. The assertion needs to be qualified in accordance with WP policies89.100.155.6 (talk) 09:04, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

Do you have any mainstream sources opinions in reliable mainstream sources that would give us reason to doubt the statement? That fringe proponents doubt it is irrelevant. Otherwise, saying that the opinion that CS is peudoscience is the opinion of "mainstream commentators" is a banal tautology. Sorry, looks like your trying to downplay the mainstream view and give equal footing to a self-serving fringe view, which would violate WP:GEVAL. Do you have relaible mainstram opinions in reliable independent mainstream sources that demonstrate that the opinion that CS is not PS is a significant view within the mainstream community, and not a fringe view itself? What fringe proponents think about themselves is irrelevant. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 09:47, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

"[L]ooks like your trying to downplay the mainstream view and give equal footing to a self-serving fringe view..." I have no idea how you came to that conclusion. A mainstream view, by definition, cannot have something that is on equal footing to it, as otherwise there would be two mainstream views.89.100.155.6 (talk) 09:19, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

The relevant part of the guidelines is: WP:FRINGE/PS: "Theories which

have a following, such as astrology, but which are generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community may properly contain that information and may be categorized as pseudoscience." IRWolfie- (talk) 12:09, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

There's no dispute about the "categorization" of CS as "pseudoscience." The qualifier proposed simply denotes that it's the mainstream viewpoint, not a universally-agreed fact.89.100.155.6 (talk) 09:19, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

Quite. The medical claims of the CS is more or less universally seen as pseudoscience by the medical community. There really shouldn't be any doubts there. Text can always be improved, but the two resent reverted edits did not. Thimbleweed (talk) 21:16, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

[NB Thimbleweed's comment referred to IRWorlfie's, not to mine]. This seems like OR on your part, Thimbleweed. Christian Science is the name of a religion. It does not claim to be a science in the sense of today's natural sciences. It's no more a pseudoscience than is library science, domestic science, or economics. There seems to be an entirely unwarranted attempt here to force things into the straitjacket of the methodologies of the natural sciences. (Actually, it's possible that economics is indeed a pseudoscience according to natural science descriptors, but see how long such a definition would last on the Wikipedia page! Let's face it guys, this is about numbers, not "truth".)89.100.155.6 (talk) 09:19, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

There is no OR in the article in relation to this. This is what the sources say. IRWolfie- (talk) 10:26, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

Small comment: IP's comment that economics would be a pseudoscience is derailing. The CS is not making statements of economics, but it does about a natural science (medicine). In medical science "the straitjacket of the methodologies of the natural sciences" as IP puts it, reign supreme. Thimbleweed (talk) 10:37, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

I doubt if medicine is a natural science in the same way as (eg) biology or physics. (For one thing, the medical title "Doctor" is simply a courtesy title, as physicians do not normally do a PhD. And many physicians will tell you that medicine is more an art than a science.) In any case, the main purpose of Christian Science is moral healing rather than physical healing, as anyone who was familiar with the writings of its founder would tell you. The point about economics is that, like the other social sciences, it doesn't follow the methodology of the natural sciences. So to follow the logic of the argument that is going on here, any discipline or branch of learning that has a claim to being scientific but doesn't follow the methodology of the natural sciences, should be categorized as a pseudo-science. Why is Christian Science being singled out, since (like library science or domestic science) it is neither a natural science, nor has it any claim to be one?89.100.155.6 (talk) 09:05, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Yawn. I'm not going to waste my time explaining the details behind why it is a pseudoscience, I'm fairly sure I've already done that earlier on this page, and because this isn't a forum. The sources call it pseudoscience matter of factly, so we call it pseudoscience. This satisfies WP:FRINGE, that is all. See False equivalence while you are here. IRWolfie- (talk) 12:30, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Yes. Discussing the matter further is fruitless. We have enough reliable sources to justify the sentence, and quibbling definitions of science belongs on some forum, not here. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 13:15, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

I'm Getting Bewildered

There was a consensus on this Talk page that the negative criticism of CS needed to be balanced by more positive sources, but that--in accordance with Wikipedia policies--these should (preferably) not be primary sources. When I duly cited a secondary and a tertiary source (both from respected publishers) these were removed. (Admittedly, one of the writers was a Christian Scientist, but I don't see what difference that should make. Presumably Muslims are allowed to be cited on the page on Islam?) Also, it seems that it's OK for others to revert material on the CS article, but not for someone (like me) who is trying to balance the article, on terms that were previously agreed. Can someone please explain what's going on?89.100.155.6 (talk) 10:00, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Eddy is described as a "devout Christian" who would have rejected any attempt to characterize Christian Science as a cult.

This adds balance? Really? Sounds totally inane to me. TippyGoomba (talk) 16:30, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

@IP: You would be a lot less bewildered if you would finally take the time to read our policies and guidelines carefully and thoroughly. Practically everything you need to know is explained there. Right now, it looks like you don't have the slightest clue what WP is and how it works. You're going to have a very frustrating time editing on controversial articles such as this without having a very firm grasp of the following policies and guidelines: WP:V, WP:RS, WP:NPOV, WP:FRINGE, WP:NOR and WP:NOT. Your changes will continue to be reverted for reasons you cannot understand, and your input will continue to be ignored if it does not conform to our policies and guidelines. No one is going to feel obligated to explain things to you if you haven't made the effort to figure them out for yourself. You've been editing for three months already, so it's high time you "hit the books". It's also far better to build up experience making non-controversial edits to non-controversial articles and spend some time reading the talk page archives of controversial articles before diving in. And it's better to propose your changes on the article talk page first and gain consensus before you make a change. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 18:03, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

I suggest looking at the relevant policies and guidelines as Dominus highlighted. In particular WP:NOR which would highlight the issue with the synthesis you made, IRWolfie- (talk) 18:17, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

In fact we have a policy specifically for that WP:SYNTH. Heiro 18:48, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

SYN is part of NOR, :) IRWolfie- (talk) 18:59, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

The proof of the pudding is in the eating, i.e. whether an article gives a fair and informative view of its subject. This one, in its present state, arguably does not. And I don't appreciate being talked down to.89.100.155.6 (talk) 21:24, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

You can argue until you're blue in the face, but if your arguments are not based reliable sources and do not conform to WP policies and guidelines, you'll just be farting in the wind. And if you "don't appreciate being talked down to", the solution is simple: bring yourself up! Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 22:25, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

You are making very non-specific complaints. What do you want people to say in reply? IRWolfie- (talk) 23:53, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Dominus, please note http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia: "Civility is part of Wikipedia's code of conduct and one of Wikipedia's five pillars. The civility policy is a standard of conduct that sets out how Wikipedia editors should interact. Stated simply, editors should always treat each other with consideration and respect. In order to keep the focus on improving the encyclopedia and to help maintain a pleasant editing environment, editors should behave politely, calmly and reasonably, even during heated debates." Please note that the Wikipedia policies, such as this one, apply to you as well as to everyone else.89.100.155.6 (talk) 07:18, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Sources Suspect in this Article

Why is Walter Martin being used as a source for information on this article? There is an obvious conflict of interest. He was an extremely conservative commentator, referring to Eddy as "an arrogant member of the female race" in his book Kingdom of the Cults. This is not a voice of objectivity. Why has an atheist agnostic skeptic assumed almost exclusive charge of editing an article that has to do with a religious belief system, to the exclusion of others who have an understanding of the subject and have sources which speak intelligibly on the subject? This article is a victim of religious discrimination. Credible secondary sources which properly explain Christian Science concepts are mostly missing from this article. One of them is present, but it is misquoted and taken out of context, as are the primary sources. The article is misleading to any reader coming to it to find information on Christian Science. Many statements lack any sources at all, and just hang there with nothing to support them, yet our skeptic editor leaves those statements in and finds them acceptable. Could this be because they are unfavorable towards Christian Science? Someone needs to come in who knows this subject, and present the religious views of Christian Science accurately and source them properly, and those edits be allowed to stand on the basis that this is a religion, and religion by nature deals with faith. At present, this article on religion is being filtered through the lens of agnosticism, skepticism, atheism, and Christian fundamentalism. Readers of this article, no matter of what faith, or no faith, should object to this, and demand an article that expresses more integrity than what is presently showing here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.228.27.166 (talk) 14:14, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

The only "faith" required to edit a Wikipedia article is WP:FAITH, everything else is subject to WP:NPOV. Heiro 19:41, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

If you think "credible secondary sources which properly explain Christian Science concepts are mostly missing from this article", then show them. Otherwise stop wasting time with non-specific complaints and ad hominem attacks. IRWolfie- (talk) 00:47, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

I have a very serious question for you, before I spend time building intelligent content for this article... Would you object to a physicist or a physics student referencing a published physicist (secondary source) in editing a Wikipedia article on physical science? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.228.19.65 (talk) 01:36, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

By "serious question", you obviously mean "loaded question". Yeah, I would object if the publication was not peer-reviewed. Do you have a reference from peer-reviewed theological scholarship to share? Because that would be great. TippyGoomba (talk) 01:51, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

If by "intelligent content" you mean self-serving self-description and apologetics based on in-universe sources, then you should consider finding another outlet for such content, as there is no place in WP for that. Furthermore, if you want to contribute productively, I'd advise you to read our policies and guidelines, as proposals that do not conform to them are generally rejected or just plain ignored, as are proposals not backed up by reliable independent sources. The relevant policies and guidelines here are WP:V, WP:RS, WP:NPOV WP:NOR, WP:FRINGE and WP:NOT. That said, I do agree that the Martin source is unreliable, non-scholarly and biased, and have removed it from the article myself. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 07:31, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for taking that out. This is encouraging. I am new to Wikipedia (and might add that this place already feels like somewhat of a bullying forum...) but I am learning the rules and have been reading the policies, and I see a lot wrong with this article based on the very guidelines you all have been talking about. There is very little factual information on what Christian Science is and a whole lot of personal points of view, and also sources that seem to me to be breaking the Wikipedia rules for reliable sources, that is if I am reading the same guidelines you are. The controversial content in the article is mixed in with sections which pretend to be explaining Christian Science. Take a look at the response above where someone says that my question is "loaded" and that assumes that I must mean "self-serving self-description" by intelligent content. Is this adhering to the "good faith" guideline? I see double standards running all over the place here. What I mean by intelligent content is simply content that presents what Christian Science is from secondary sources written by people who know what they are talking about, and which have been published by university presses and other publishers outside of the church. Now, if we could just all get to where we are playing by the same rules, this process could be a lot more pleasant, and we could wind up with a very strong and fair article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.228.22.125 (talk) 08:40, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

"very little factual information on what Christian Science is ": then add content sourced to secondary sources, what more do you want us to say? If you're adding SYN and OR it's just going to end up being removed, IRWolfie- (talk) 10:15, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Glad to hear that you are reading our policies. It would also help if you started a WP account with a WP user name. Right now, your IP number keeps changing. Details here: WP:ACCOUNT. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 12:19, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

What on earth is this supposed to mean?

"Eddy regarded Christian Science much like science, except she viewed its creation as a spiritual rather than a physical discovery, with herself as the divinely chosen discover.[6]:28 Christian Science regards science as not important and an illusion, while the text by Eddy, Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures is promoted by the Church as "a pioneer in the science of the mind body connection". Eddy viewed herself as similar to Copernicus.[16]:317"

Apparently Eddy regarded CS much like science, though she regarded science as not important and an illusion. However she viewed herself as similar to Copernicus. This is garbled nonsense. (If the intention is to imply that CS is in fact garbled nonsense, then that is surely OR--a source should be found for such suggestions/assertions.)89.100.155.6 (talk) 08:29, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

The sources point out this very contradiction. It doesn't make sense, but that isn't our fault. IRWolfie- (talk) 10:17, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

I've clarified it a little, IRWolfie- (talk) 10:21, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

You haven't addressed his/her concern. The IP editor is trying to point out that some secondary sources, whoever has published them, can still write nonsense: and I must say, the statement about Copernicus is one I haven't been able to verify at all. However many barnstars you have, IRWolfie, you do not in the opinion of many authors behave like a man of learning: just a stubborn man who believes he's right. Michael J. Mullany (talk) 11:47, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

It's not our job to try and verify the secondary sources as long as they have a reputation for fact checking in the area we are concerned with. IRWolfie- (talk) 19:06, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

It certainly is our job not to cite from so-called secondary sources which write nonsense. The writing itself must be free of bias. Also when we summarize such sources, we must not change the direction of intent or spirit of such sources. I find that you frequently do this; and in a way that shouts your very anti-CS POV opinion.

I try to edit from a NPOV on CS and anything else. Of course CS has its faults and short-comings, as does any other faith I am aware of. But these need to be explored in a neutral way. For example, I have very strong personal views about aspects of the Catholic faith, which have allowed the wide-spread molestation of children by priests. I can quote heaps of secondary sources on this. I could make Catholics feel particularly uncomfortable by citing them while vastly expanding the section on child abuse already in the article on Catholicism. However, considering my views, I would find it unethical to do so, as my POV would become evident. I think you are making precisely this type of error in your editing of the CS article. Michael J. Mullany (talk) 09:50, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

The comparison to the catholic church isn't a great one since it wouldn't be reflective of the sources. You won't find Catholicism appearing in encyclopaedias/dictionaries of pseudoscience as an entry as being pseudoscience. The rejection of medicine and science is something which the reliable sources do devote space to with regards to Christian Science, particularly in relation to vaccines etc. I don't see any discussion on this talk page which you have started on any misrepresentation. It's likely there may be mistakes in my edits since I'm not perfect, but I can only address them when you highlight them to me. IRWolfie- (talk) 11:40, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

You did a quick survey around your office about whether I'm a man of learning? IRWolfie- (talk) 19:30, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

No, I think you aspire to be a person of learning through interests expressed on your user page as well as your vast editing on Wikipedia. In my efforts to help you in this direction, I suggest that a little less dogma (Catholic or ex-Catholic) would suit you better. Also, that you devote yourself less to all of this and a bit more to some genuine scientific pursuits, such as getting yourself through a Ph.D. and indeed more widely published in a few reliable {secondary} sources! Michael J. Mullany (talk) 09:50, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

That's enough of the personal comments. Focus on content, please. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 10:45, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Misinterpreting guidelines

You are quoting the text, but missing all that it says [[3]]: "From Wikipedia policies: "Theories which have a following... but which are generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community may properly contain that information and may be categorized as pseudoscience." We categorize it as pseudoscience. No issue. IRWolfie- (talk) 18:56, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

The issue is not the categorization of Christian Science as pseudoscience, but the need to qualify the location and boundaries of the categorization. CS would probably be a pseudoscience from the point of view of most conventional scientists (if they have given it any thought or even heard of it) and certainly from the POV of skeptics, but not necessarily from the POV of theologians or philosophers of religion, or indeed from the POV of some philosophers of science. Consequently the categorization needs some qualification. There is nothing in the Wikipedia policies or guidelines that would preclude such a qualification. (While I'm at it, the following text is in fact incorrect in several ways: "Its claim that sickness can be healed through prayer rather than medicine, its rejection of science as illusory, and its attempts to present itself as science make Christian Science a pseudoscience." CS does not claim "that sickness can be healed through prayer rather than medicine." This would imply that it claims that medicine does not heal, which CS does not claim. Nor does it reject science as illusory--it rejects materialism as illusory, and in doing so is in accord with a whole tradition of Western (and Eastern) philosophy going back millennia.)89.100.155.6 (talk) 22:15, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

You have no sources to back that position up, you are trying to disagree based on your own personal opinions. I will say this simply; the sources disagree with you. IRWolfie- (talk) 10:23, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

In that case the sources are wrong. I could easily cite primary sources on the above, but such sources have been arbitrarily removed from the article despite being allowed (in moderation) by the Wikipedia policies, as has been pointed out before. How on earth can some throw-away remark, in a different context, by some "secondary" source who may not have any understanding of the teachings of Christian Science be the basis of key points in an article, while primary sources have been excised?89.100.155.6 (talk) 06:20, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

We would be pleased to evaluate peer-reviewed scholarship on the matter. Please provide it. TippyGoomba (talk) 07:32, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

Who are "we"?? And why is a tertiary source written from a specific (skeptical) POV preferable to primary sources?89.100.155.6 (talk) 22:13, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia Policies

Doing some research on Wikipedia policies, as recommended by another contributor to this page, I came across this one, which is intriguing (not to say internally contradictory--should the rule to ignore all rules be ignored as well?) Anyway, it seems to indicate that the spirit of building a good encyclopedia trumps written policies, unless I'm overlooking something: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Ignore_all_rules — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.100.155.6 (talk) 09:36, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

No Wikipedia:What_"Ignore_all_rules"_means#What_.22Ignore_all_rules.22_does_not_mean, it's highlighting that the intentions of the policies that matter, not the specific wording. It's to prevent, for example, wikilawyering by POV pushers choosing bits they like out of policies so they can push a POV and try and dress it up as policy based. IRWolfie- (talk) 10:20, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

That bit about "POV pushers" also applies to editors who constantly seek to impose their personal bias, ignorance and prejudices ~ all in the name of "objective science" of course ~ on any articles that they consider to be on "fringe theories" or "pseudoscience" and refuse to allow balanced and neutral wording which is meant to be a non-negotiable policy. Anglicanus (talk) 13:56, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

Balance? Wikipedia doesn't aim to treat two viewpoints as equal to each other see WP:DUE, rather it assigns weight to viewpoints in accordance with the sources. IRWolfie- (talk) 17:36, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

I would have thought this text is clear enough:

"You are not required to learn the rules before contributing. Yes, we already said that, but it is worth repeating. Don't follow written instructions mindlessly, but rather, consider how the encyclopedia is improved or damaged by each edit (see also Use common sense, below). Rules derive their power to compel not from being written down on a page labeled "guideline" or "policy", but from being a reflection of the shared opinions and practices of many editors (see also Wikipedia:Consensus). Most rules are ultimately descriptive, not prescriptive; they describe existing current practice. They sometimes lag behind the practices they describe (see also Wikipedia:Product, process, policy). Wikilawyering doesn't work. Loopholes and technicalities do not exist on the Wiki. Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy; nor moot court, nor nomic, nor Mao. The spirit of the rule trumps the letter of the rule. The common purpose of building a free encyclopedia trumps both. If this common purpose is better served by ignoring the letter of a particular rule, then that rule should be ignored (see also Wikipedia:The rules are principles). Following the rules is less important than using good judgment and being thoughtful and considerate, always bearing in mind that good judgment is not displayed only by those who agree with you (see also Wikipedia:Civility)."

There seems to be a view taken on this page that there is only one reasonable take on the meaning/intention of Wikipedia policies/guidelines and that everything else must by definition be in error. I can think of only one word to describe that, and its "fundamentalism.' (Not unlike Biblical fundamentalism, in fact.) In any case, such a viewpoint would receive short shrift in any of the various branches of enquiry concerned with the meaning of language. Indeed, there is a whole field of enquiry concerned with the meaning of "intention", from Wimsatt and Beardsley in lit theory to legal debates about the intentions of the Founding Fathers of the US. (Did they "intend" the gun laws to refer just to the musket over the fireplace? Would they have extended them to AK47s? Etc etc.) Anyway, the point I'm making is that meaning, intention etc are not clear and obvious concepts193.1.217.20 (talk) 15:57, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

Are you suggesting and edit? What's the point of this? TippyGoomba (talk) 16:21, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

Read back through the Talk page. A lot of discussion re editing this article hinges on the interpretation of the Wikipedia policies and guidelines.193.1.217.20 (talk) 17:28, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

Before you continue your rant about fundamentalism and founding fathers, read WP:FRINGE. Actually read the stuff and stop trying to twist it to suit your arguments. IRWolfie- (talk) 17:36, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

Check this out (the Wikipedia policies apply to you as well): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Assume_good_faith193.1.217.20 (talk) 17:31, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

I just read WP:FRINGE and it is not being followed in this article at all. What's happening is that the POV that Christian Science is not a subject of significant importance is held as a premise by certain editors along with a misconception that Christian Science presents itself as a mainstream idea. It doesn't. It is definitely not mainstream, and is not trying to be physical science. I wish these editors would grasp this point, because they might feel relieved. Basing edits on these false premises lowers the standard and breaks the rules, both letter and spirit, of Wikipedia. Even if it really irritates some people that Mary Baker Eddy chose to use the word "science" to describe her theological reasoning, the best way to approach editing this article is to recognize that Christian Science is a religion, and therefore needs to be explained on the basis of it's theology, instead of coming right out of the gate claiming that it is trying to be science but is a pseudoscience. It is not trying to be physics. These editors are hung up on this. It's too late to rewrite history. Eddy named it Christian Science, and established that title legally in her day. Starting this article off with a misapprehension of what she meant by the word "science" is not serving anyone, least of all someone coming to the page to learn something about Christian Science. We need some editors that understand the subject, have good sources, and are willing and able to write. How about some WP:FAITH collaboration between skeptics, adherents, and anyone in between who really wants to be objective??? Can I get a witness??? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.228.23.67 (talk) 17:50, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

Again, the sources do not agree with what you are saying; check them out. I'm fully open to any actual collaborative effort to work on the article when you are ready. IRWolfie- (talk) 22:31, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

My, my, IRWolfie, you do get around. I see you've been active in editing the WP:FRINGE page as well. (You're not just firing the ideological bullets, you're helping to make them as well.) Let's face it, the way Wikipedia works has a lot to do with the time and energy that some people seem to have to devote to these issues. Unfortunately, not all of us are so blessed with those resources.89.100.155.6 (talk) 22:44, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

IRWolfie the majority of sources in this article are written by individuals who have made it their mission to attack and debunk Christian Science because of their own personal views of it. Honestly, is it because you are gullible that you accept these sources, or is it because you aim to make Christian Science look ridiculous to the public? That is an honest question so please don't cite WP:Faith. Swan, Asser, any mainstream fundamentalist Christian sources suggesting that Christian Science is "heresy" etc. - these are all written by vehement opponents to Christian Science, and none of these shed any light on what Christian Science is about. What I would do if I were going to edit this article, is that I would present Christian Science in a historical context using general statements which are objective. I would take all the controversy (which is most of what this article is, starting with the lead piece) and just take all of that and put it in a section called "controversy". If you read encyclopedia Britannica or World Book, they simply state what Christian Science is historically. They don't try to get into it's theology too far by pulling ideas totally out of context, something this Wikipedia article does over and over. A problem I see happening in this article is something that I have seen in conservative Christian literature, which is this: say whatever is necessary to make Christian Science look heretical and outrageous even if it means you have to mislead your reader, because the ends justify the means. So the skeptic physicists are acting just like fundamentalists on here. Nevermind telling the truth about the subject at hand. If we can make it look ridiculous, then we have succeeded. But do those "scientists" ever stop to think that real science is based on truth? Science is when you are trying to get at the truth, to understand reality and the way things really ARE. So tell the truth about the subject in a balanced way, in an intelligent way. Go ahead and put the negative things in, but do it in a way that is not misleading the general public. Stop insulting their intelligence. There is too much good information already out there about Christian Science, for this article to have any credibility in it's present state. It's just a total embarrassment to Wikipedia in my opinion. It makes a joke out of Wikipedia. I would challenge these self proclaimed scientists to put their money where their mouth is, and start with the truth. Not the truth as you see it, or as an antagonist sees it, or as a Christian Scientist sees it, but what about how history sees it? There are basic facts out there about Christian Science. But you won't find very many of them in this article. Again, let's present it objectively, and then later, in appropriate sections, explore the positives and negatives in a fair way. Doesn't anyone want to do this? The trouble I have is that I don't want to have my time wasted if mischief makers are going to keep on doing stupid stuff on this article. I would like to work with some people who really want to get it right. I am not going to write text, source it all, and have someone with a personal agenda come along and reverse my conscientious efforts, and hypocritically cite Wikipedia rules for why I can't place valid content into this article, and even take utter garbage out of it, without someone preaching "Sources" that are no sources at all! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.228.20.127 (talk) 09:14, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

You have made specific assertions that "the majority of sources in this article are written by individuals who have made it their mission to attack and debunk Christian Science because of their own personal views of it", I personally find this doubtful for the sources I have added, so I would ask you to justify it. If the theology section is underdeveloped, and you are unwilling to improve the theology section with secondary sources that is not my issue. IRWolfie- (talk) 18:23, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Now, I have made a few small edits, which I believe IMPROVE the article. Is not that what we want? I have not injected any opinion into the article. Go ahead and take a look at my edits. Can you honestly say that they are not improvements? I looked up the Gottschalk reference in the one about whether Christian Science can accurately be described as "Philisophical Idealism" and I conscientiously added that Christian Science is better understood in a theological context rather than a philosophical. And that is from a reliable secondary source. The other edits, I did not add content or sources. I either took out biased edits, or I improved wording. In the case of the Theology and the claim that Eddy regarded the Scientific Statement of Being as the "core" of Christian Science. The trouble with that was that she never said that. And so I left the source the same, changed the page, and said that she explained the basic religious points in the Tenets, but I did not paste in the Tenets. I am curious what will happen here, because that fuzzy statement about the "core" was left in there for a long time with a primary source, but it was not accurate. Let's see if we can use a primary source in this instance, but have an accurate statement attached to it, without it being reversed because it is a primary source. I think you will find that it is a very fair edit. I can assure you IRWolfie, that it is accurate. And if you want it sourced from a secondary source, give me the opportunity please, and place "citation needed" or something in there, instead of reversing a very good edit. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.228.20.127 (talk) 11:22, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Lede too short?

Why so tagged? Looks about right to me ... Alexbrn (talk) 09:59, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. It has been removed. TippyGoomba (talk) 05:00, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

It could do with a paragraph about the Church Christ, scientist. IRWolfie- (talk) 18:24, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Pseudoreligion ?

66.228.20.127 has removed [4] this term from the lede. I oppose this edit. The term is both apt and well-sourced – and so better than the unsourced text the IP editor is proposing. Alexbrn (talk) 10:35, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Totally absurd. Who is to decide what is or is not a pseudo religion. That is totally subjective. And the definition given in Wikipedia even says that it is a derogatory term. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.228.20.127 (talk) 11:27, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

If it's well-sourced, it's good to have. Alexbrn (talk) 11:30, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Suggestion: Place a citation needed after my edit. Give people an opportunity to improve and not vandalize further this article. You do the public no service by injecting POV, no matter how you source it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.228.20.127 (talk) 11:31, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

No, it's not good to have. What constitutes a good source? I have read the reliable page in Wikipedia. The spirit of the rule is abused all throughout this article. We need to resolve that problem, and not add to it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.228.20.127 (talk) 11:33, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Unsourced material should be sourced or removed. Sourced material should be used: it's good stuff. I see no valid reason for your edit. Alexbrn (talk) 11:37, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

In the absence of a valid reason for its removal, I have replaced the sourced text. Alexbrn (talk) 11:42, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

The IP used has again removed the content, with no real justification. I have replaced it, with 3 supporting references for the term "pseudoreligion". We must used verified material. Alexbrn (talk) 12:03, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

I placed 3 reliable sources in there that cannot be construed as biased. Also, what kind of an edit is "Christian Scientists have sacrificed children to their false pseudo religion. This guy is not serious. Is this not going to be considered vandalism of this poor article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.228.20.127 (talk) 12:12, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

New approach. Have added extra information that qualifies pseudoreligion as "sect". This is sourced to a top-class CUP journal. With your sources joined, the lede is now getting much richer. How far we have come since this morning! However, I think your references need formatting/fixing. Alexbrn (talk) 12:43, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

See, I just hope people read this so that they can see what the people who want to improve this article are up against. Sooner or later, a majority of people who are conscientious and respectful have to weigh in, or else this is hopeless.

There needs to be consensus based on WP norms for progress. We must treat this topic impartially and attend to verifiability, not truth. To counter WP:V descriptions of CS as a "pseudoreligious" and a "sect", sources stating otherwise are needed. Edit warring, false accusations of vandalism (naughty!) and huffing and puffing will not help make progress. Alexbrn (talk) 12:53, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Anyway, I'm not going to edit war over this, but am concerned at the loss of good quality sourced information for no apparent justifiable reason. What do others think? Alexbrn (talk) 12:56, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

I provided a source which classifies Christian Science as a denomination of Christianity. I don't see how that can be congruent with it being a pseudo religion. Also, I stated earlier that part of the definition of Pseudo-religion given on Wikipedia is that it is most often used as a derogatory term. I find it offensive, and foolish to start an article off with that. I would find it offensive applied to any religion, because who am I to say whose religion is genuine or not? I mean, what kind of a source is that? I opened a thread further up on this page "Sources Suspect in this Article" and please, we need LESS of that, not more. This article contrary to what one person said, is NOT in a good state. But it could be. It needs help. Why chase away the people that genuinely want to help improve this thing? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.228.20.127 (talk) 13:31, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

I'm afraid your source looks suspiciously like some group's self-published web site. Is it? Alexbrn (talk) 16:36, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

• Personally I think calling it a pseudoreligion in the first line of the lead is unnecessary. The question is, for christian science, is being a pseudoreligion a distinguishing or major feature? IRWolfie- (talk) 18:19, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Okay, since there seems to be a lot of material offering categorizations (cult? sect? pseudoreligion?), how can we capture that? I'm keen to avoid a dumping ground "Controversy" section of course ... Alexbrn (talk) 18:24, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

I'd suggest Christian_Science#Theology or similar. If there is no content in the article about it, it doesn't really need to be in the lead. IRWolfie- (talk) 18:30, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Removal of content

66.228.20.127 has removed [5] a paragraph of content. I oppose this edit – the content is both sourced and pertinent. If the concern is that it is not specifically describing CS, but the mainstream reaction to it, I would not object to placing this paragraph in a "Mainstream reception" sub-section, or similar. Alexbrn (talk) 10:42, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Putting all the mainstream christian response into subsections is generally bad style. I would just try and have it as part of prose in the theology section in a way that makes sense, IRWolfie- (talk) 12:49, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

I am beginning to think this is hopeless. But I also am beginning to think that if this is the way that Wikipedia is heading, it may lose it's popularity.

I don't understand why IRWolfie in particular, would not object to the pseudo-religion label? If you are an atheist, then how would you distinguish a pseudo religion from a religion. Religion has to do with belief and faith. How can one say that one person's religious belief is not valid, and another person's belief is valid. Isn't this a slippery slope? IRWolfie, I keep waiting for you to stand up and have the courage to say, hey, that isn't right, even if it means that it will be fair to this particular religion. Should we go on all religious sites and call them pseudo if we can find a source to back it up? Where is the line drawn? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.228.20.127 (talk) 12:58, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

It's not a question of what editors think, it's a question of what sources state. Editors should seek those out and build an article around them. Sources state CS is a pseudoreligion, so we should say so (personally I think the term is slightly bonkers, but then I chant the mantra to myself: verifiability, not truth). Alexbrn (talk) 13:03, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

If a source says that Julia Child was a pseudo-chef, do we respect that, and place it the lead section in an article on French Cuisine, and not even qualify it by saying, some people think she was a pseudo-chef because she wasn't French? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.228.20.127 (talk) 13:12, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Silly question, because not equivalent in any way. But if three good sources said it, and "pseudo-chef" was a defined term with a Wikipedia entry (like Pseudoreligion is), and there were not sources that definitively contradicted it, then we could reasonably infer that the consensus opinion among chef categorizers was that she was, and we would be perfectly justified in putting it in the lede of the Julia Child article ... However, Julia child is a person and CS is not. We can describe CS as a pseudoreligion if that is the consensus among commentators on religion, just as other things are described as pseudoscience is that is the scientific consensus. Hmmm, reading the Pseudoreligion page it and looking at what CS is, I think the fit looks excellent, don't you? Alexbrn (talk) 13:27, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Silly question? Don't you see, you are just being disrespectful to me, to this article, to religion in general. It's not good... It's too bad. It could be such an interesting thing to contribute to this article, but it just feels like I am never going to get anywhere. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.228.20.127 (talk) 13:43, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Plain and simple, Christian Science is a religion. It is a simple fact. It may be a religion you don't care for, a religion you don't believe in, a religion you can find sources on that say it is this or that, but my impression from reading the guidelines of Wikipedia is that those types of personal viewpoints and sources don't belong in articles like this unless it is clear that it is a point of view. Of course I don't think CS is a pseudo-religion, and you know I don't, but that doesn't stop you from being provocative. People will come here and see exactly what is going on. I have already sent friends who are of other faiths or no faith to the site, and they just think it is a joke what's happening. I am brand new to Wikipedia, and so far, it's extremely difficult at least when it comes to this page, to have any good faith that anyone who is editing this thing is remotely interested in finding sources that get at what Christian Science is actually about, and what it is. There is a way to state all those things objectively. Instead what I see is what I said earlier, personal agendas with a knack for finding source materials to back up your POV and then cite the letter of the rule to justify your mischief. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.228.20.127 (talk) 13:57, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

You really need to take on board verifiability, not truth, or I can guarantee you will find Wikipedia a frustrating experience. Anyway, I think we are zeroing in on meaning ... I have come across yet another source describing CS as "pseudo-religious", and this is in the learned journal Anthropology Today [6]. In it, there is a description of how the Polish church categorizes CS as a "pseudo-religious movement". (The good news for 'real life' CS is that it is distinguished from "dangerous sects" like Satanism and Scientology). I think, based on the sources, it's looking increasingly like "pseudoreligious" is a very apt work for CS. Perhaps, if one had to choose, the best single word that could be applied. As an aside, in real life, why do you consider CS not pseudoreligion? It seems to tick all the boxes (belief system; founder; lack of distinctive theology; fringey; looked down on by mainstream religion, etc.). However, since it is clear "pseudoreligion" is not the only applicable term, I propose it is used in combination with other descriptive text. Alexbrn (talk) 14:44, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

"James Carmine, chair of Carlow University's philosophy department, proposes a three-pronged test to distinguish "authentic" religions from pseudoreligions:

       Any religion lacking a guiding coherent theology is a pseudo-religion.
       Any religion entirely self referential is a pseudo-religion.
       Any religion whose only fruit is adherence to itself is a pseudo-religion.[8]"

The above is a quote from the "Pseudoreligion" article in Wikipedia. From any perspective, Christian Science fulfills none of those criteria. It has a guiding coherent theology; it is not self referential (CS is based on the Bible); and adherence to itself is not its only fruit. As is clear elsewhere in the article, one does not need to be a member of the Christian Science church to practice its teachings: in fact the "fruit" of Christian Science is moral and physical healing, and indeed the CS textbook concludes with a chapter entitled "Fruitage" detailing such healings. If people would actually read the book, as well as things written about it by skeptics and others, it would help a lot89.100.155.6 (talk) 15:04, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Yes it doesn't seem to pass Carlow's 3 tests (which seem a little particular), but does pass others. Anyway, we must resist such original research and look to our sources. If they say CS is pseudoreligion, then so must we. It's looking like a solid case at the moment. Alexbrn (talk) 16:40, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

There is no rule against using primary material, if used with care. I could easily back this up with primary sources but as it goes against the interpretation of some of the most energetic contributors, it's a bit like hitting one's head against the wall. I'm beginning to realize why my academic colleagues effectively ban their students from using Wikipedia as a source for essays/theses.89.100.155.6 (talk) 16:45, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

No. Trying to counter multiple secondary sources with your OR is not acceptable. IRWolfie- (talk) 18:16, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Not acceptable to whom? And who defines the use of primary sources as OR? Primary sources are allowed in the Wikipedia policies.89.100.155.6 (talk) 08:59, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

A very careful and select use of primary sources is allowed so you can augment the secondary sources not counter them. Using your interpretation of primary sources is original research. IRWolfie- (talk) 10:53, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

The first sentence (re augmenting the secondary sources) is just your opinion. In regard to the second sentence, paraphrase or direct quotation is not original research: if it is, it applies just as much to the use of secondary sources.89.100.155.6 (talk) 13:28, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

I believe IRWolfie- represents WP policy correctly. From WP:PRIMARY: "primary sources that have been reliably published may be used in Wikipedia; but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them. Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation" Alexbrn (talk) 13:46, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Semi-protection

Watching a new IP user run amok on this article just now, I can't help feeling that this Article would be better off semi-protected. Does anyone agree? and if so what is the process by which protection can be requested? Alexbrn (talk) 17:55, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Objecting to your treatment of this section is hardly running amok. I appreciate the fact that you at least started a sub-section to place that opinion in. But I also think some religious people will take issue with this given time, because you are painting with a very broad brush as if to say that mainstream Christianity in general holds the view that you quoted. There are mainstream sects that are friendly towards Christian Science. If you will take a look at the other edits I have attempted to make, they are intended to improve the article, to make it more objective. Is this against the rules? I keep waiting for someone to stand up and be fair here. Can someone who is objective please stand up for the comments that I have made and the edits I have attempted? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.228.22.132 (talk) 18:08, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Err, I didn't think it was you – it seemed to be a different IP address. Or, are they all you? Alexbrn (talk) 18:20, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Wow. Talk about running amok... The thing about the Bliss Knapp book should be in the article, but not under the section you started, and it could be stated in a less scandalous manner for objectivity. Again, why don't we start a section to place all the hot button issues in, and let there be some room for a fair presentation of Christian Science first. This editor Alexbrn is muckraking and then using intimidation tactics to silence someone who is genuinely trying to improve the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.228.22.132 (talk) 18:27, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Actually, to be fair, the way Alexbrn presented the issue of the Bliss Knapp book is not too far off the mark, except for the part that claims that Knapp went so far as the claim that Eddy was a second Christ. He didn't do that in that book. I have read it. I would like to see the 1991 incident in a section on Controversy though. If you plug it into the section on the relationship with mainstream Christianity, it smacks of being used as support for conservative mainstream views against theological points of Christian Science, and I just don't think that belongs there. It would be so interesting to see some comparing and contrasting in that new section of how Christian Science explains certain theological points differently, and why orthodoxy objects to it. But this needs to be done with care, and not in a slanderous way. For instance the Christian Science view of atonement is unique, and could be compared and contrasted with mainstream views, so that both get a fair shake, and it can then be frankly stated that here is the crux of where mainstream and CS don't agree, do agree, etc. I have sources that would be awesome to use to develop this content. But if there is a tidal wave of stuff that is put it to further a conservative viewpoint, it makes it difficult if not impossible to come in and try to offer something that makes any sense. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.228.22.132 (talk) 18:39, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Err what? What's scandalous about this - it's in Time magazine and the content and presentational tone used in my edit is faithful to the original i.e. rather bland. Searching for "Christian Science," "Theology," "doctrine" and the like in a good library brings this stuff up. It's WP:V so it should be used. Anyhow, how is a "hot button issue" - isn't just an everyday tale of power and money? Alexbrn (talk) 18:44, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

I see your point, but as I said earlier to you when I reversed one of your edits, context is everything. As I said, I think it should be in this article. But there is such an overwhelming amount of biased content, that in the context of everything else that is on here, to keep lacing sections with things like this just makes the article unbalanced. I mean you took out a section related to the Board of Directors and the Manual of the Mother Church, which was perfectly correct, because you say it was unsourced. So why not say in good faith, "hey this section needs sources" I have a feeling that you know very well that the parts that you took out are accurate regarding the church government structure. So why take it out. Why not either help to source it, or request that someone else does? Why take it out. Someone worked to write that. It's disrespectful. I have read articles on physics written by some of the people editing this page, which have NO sources at all. But why would I go over and delete his entire article. He worked hard on it. Maybe he will add his sources later. Maybe someone will request that he does. It just feels to me like the your edits are pushing a conservative Christian agenda. Maybe I am wrong. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.228.22.132 (talk) 18:54, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Yes, you are wrong. As to removing unsourced content, in some circles it's considered good practice to remove unsourced content rather than leave it moldering in an article. And WP:V states it explicitly: "Any material that needs a source but does not have one may be removed". If editors want this material in the Article then of course they can put it back: but with a source! Alexbrn (talk) 20:45, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

How much weight do you think a section on the board of directors has? IRWolfie- (talk) 21:00, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Hello 66, keep up the good work. The article as it stands is totally unbalanced and a travesty. There are around 20 negative points concerning Christian Science, before one even gets to the section on the Church of Christ, Scientist. The article reads like an anti-CS diatribe.89.100.155.6 (talk) 20:17, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

As I've mentioned before, stop complaining and add more content already. You've complained that the theology section doesn't talk enough about Christian Science theology; well add the content and source it to secondary sources. IRWolfie- (talk) 20:59, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Agree. Semi-protect and start hatting the rants. TippyGoomba (talk) 00:44, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

What's the process to get it done? Alexbrn (talk) 10:01, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

WP:RFPP. IRWolfie- (talk) 10:46, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Protect it from whom, or what?! From individuals who are trying to clean it up? If this article gets "semi-protected" based on the attempts over the last few days to prevent further damage to it, then this sets a pathetic precedent. 66.228.23.49 (talk) 20:06, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

There is a problem in that you appear to be using an internet provider that provides dynamic IP addresses, and yours keep changing slightly. Yesterday I believe you performed 4 sequential reverts using two different IP addresses. That is normally a bannable offense. Semi-protection would prevent IP editors from editing the article, and so could protect against this kind of thing. Alexbrn (talk) 21:19, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Hopefully people will look at the content and the context of those edits to see whether such a restriction is really necessary. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.228.20.15 (talk) 23:27, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Homosexuality/synthesis

User:IRWolfie- has questioned whether the following falls foul of WP:SYN :

According to Bruce Stores, an advocate within the group, the church has quietly moved in recent times from its position of "blatant discrimination" and now treats sexual minorities with a degree of acceptance, although it may be that this "quiet movement" has been so quiet that most church members are unaware of it.

I don't think so. Although it appears to intermix two sources this is a consequence of one sources itself referring to the the other. If you look at the original [7] - particularly the text just before the heading, I think it's clear I'm faithfully representing the source's synthesis rather than making my own. Alexbrn (talk) 11:01, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

That's fine, I was just highlight it as a possible issue, IRWolfie- (talk) 11:05, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

I think one improvement I could make would be to remove the quotation marks around "quiet movement", as this is a self-reference rather than a ref to the source; I'll do that and rm the template. Alexbrn (talk) 11:11, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Did either of you know that there is no church doctrine on homosexuality in Christian Science. Are either of you interested in an enlightened understanding of what has taken place culturally inside the church? Christian Science is a lay church. And just as in our culture (I happen to an American) we have people with different views on things based on their cultural experience. I like to differentiate between the "culture" and the "teachings" of Christian Science. It is true that over the decades, cultural viewpoints have spilled over into some of the articles written in the periodicals (yet very few) and to be fair, just as our culture has evolved over time, so has the treatment of these cultural issues in the periodicals. But the hard cold fact is that Mary Baker Eddy never said one word about homosexuality, though she did speak of marriage, and in her era, the cultural assumption was that marriage was between a man and a woman. But she also wrote extensively about how individuals should be encouraged to follow "individual upward convictions" and to work out their own salvation. So, even though you have a source that says that it is part of the "doctrine" of Christian Science that homosexuality is a malady that needs healing or whatever, the fact is that it is not in the doctrine. Absolutely nowhere in the central texts of the church, nowhere in the teachings themselves. Is anyone interested in these facts? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.228.22.27 (talk) 15:52, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

The NYT has this: "Church doctrine holds that homosexuality is a "deviation from moral law" and requires members or employees to 'heal' themselves." That's unambiguous. Do you have a counter-source? Alexbrn (talk) 16:01, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

First of all, that NYT article is garbage, something that you wrap fish with or line your bird cage... I will work on producing secondary sources for this, but the problem that keeps arising with this article is CONTEXT. The POV is coming out of this article in the form of the context being used. It is anything but an objective voice that is emerging in this article. I am extremely busy, and can't afford to have my time wasted. I don't want to work on building text and sourcing it, if it is going to be reverted based on some technicality, or because someone else has three bad sources and I have two good sources, etc. What I am hoping is that some integrity will kick in and even the people who obviously don't care for Christian Science, will, for the sake of objectivity, take out of their own accord, things that are impertinent or one-sided. I am appealing to your honor and integrity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.228.22.27 (talk) 16:22, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

When the CS church was firing their employee in 1984 for being a lesbian, Ted Dinsmore - the CS attorney - stated in court "Christian Science doctrine provides that homosexuality is immoral". I think this could usefully be added as a reinforcing source? Alexbrn (talk) 16:28, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Again, all heat, and NO LIGHT. Who cares what some guy said who has nothing to do with making church doctrine. The church doctrine was already established by Mary Baker Eddy. She never mentioned homosexuality. Period. Here is a source for you to research. http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_chsc.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.228.22.27 (talk) 16:34, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

In many ways, the culture of Christian Science reflects to some extent the culture of America. And that makes sense when you consider the fact that the church is made of of individuals. So what is being done here, is that cultural views of individual Christian Scientists are being assigned to and interpreted as church doctrine by people who don't understand (or are ignoring the fact) that there is no clergy in the church, no official policy-making arm of the church. It simply doesn't exist. So the dynamics that you have seen play out through the decades is similar to what has happened in our culture as a nation. Here is the problem in this article. Culture and teachings are being confused, and perhaps not entirely without design it seems. I would challenge you to look deeper into this, and ask yourself - am I improving Wikipedia and this article, or am I just pushing an agenda of impertinence towards religion, and particularly this religion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.228.22.27 (talk) 16:41, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

(Off topic) Religions tend to invent doctrine without textual justification, and homosexuality is usually a favourite topic around which to invent stuff. The church gets to say what doctrine is, and we have to report what the church says, according to reliable sources. We have one source that says what its doctrine is directly; we have another which relates how the church's attorneys stated what its doctrine is (or are you saying there is perjury here?) Your individual exegeses don't figure. If you think it's wrong, then show me a better source. Alexbrn (talk) 16:55, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

I did show you a better source. So it will be interesting to see whether you change or add things once you read it since you seem energetic about contributing to this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.228.22.27 (talk) 17:06, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Do you mean religioustolerance.org? Isn't that just some group's self-published site? Hardly qualifying as a usable source. (Off topic) It would be reasonable to assume the Eddy and most CSers historically assumed that homosexuality was a disease (The World Health Organization listed it as a disease until 1990), and so it didn't need mentioning explicitly as it fell under the remit of "healing"; that would accord with the views presented in the court case. Also, please, would you be so kind as to indent your contributions properly and sign your name with four tildes? Alexbrn (talk) 17:19, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

The World Health Organization didn't exist during Eddy's lifetime. Aren't you making quite an assumption here and again painting with a very broad brush? I don't think you can know what "most" Protestants believe, or what "most" Christian Scientists believe. I think everything about the court case that you mention has interest to people, but it should be in a section that explores cultural conflicts or changes in the church over the years, instead of confusing it with the doctrine, which has been the same from the beginning, and never mentions homosexuality. It would add interest to the article to explore the relationship between the actual doctrine of Christian Science and how things have played out socially, but that needs to be done in a way that is contextually balanced. What is obvious to me is that facts are being used to push a POV. Again, context. I would be in favor of including all these controversies, but in a context that allows a more balanced article to emerge. The new edits you have added about Christian doctrinal viewpoints are really far off the mark, and it is very easy to find sources that are incorrect about CS teachings. But the ones I have seen have an inherent conflict of interest because they favor a particular doctrinal platform. Christian Science is doctrinally, a minority group within Christianity, and so that needs to be taken into consideration. For example, if I insert something that explains the fact that Christian Science DOES acknowledge that Christ is the Messiah, and that Jesus crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension were necessary for the redemption of mankind, and I source it well, is it going to be reverted because of what you placed in there previously? Clearly the viewpoints are opposite. So the reader is going, "what is going on here???" How can we have two totally opposing viewpoints which are presented as facts. The remedy to me is, let the section on Theology be developed so that it objectively explains what Christian Science actually teaches about these things, and then fairly and honestly in your section on Mainstream views, state why and how the mainstream view differs. Instead, what is happening is that you are saying, "Christian Scientists believe blah blah blah" and it isn't factually correct. This is not fair to the reader. By the way, none of what I have said is off topic. It has to do with context and content. 66.228.22.27 (talk) 17:52, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Are you proposing an edit, or arguing that Wikipedia shouldn't work the way it does? If you have well-sourced material, please say what it is. As a disinterested editor, all I have done is present, carefully, what I find searching journals and books, on topics which I think are notable. Alexbrn (talk) 18:01, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

I am not arguing that Wikipedia should not work the way it is designed to work, but I am saying that it isn't working that way in this particular article. And that is because of some shenanigans. And I have been reading the guidelines on a daily basis regarding NPOV, Reliable Sources, Conflict of Interest, etc., and I find along with others, that this article is a train wreck. I will write some things for the section on Theology when I have time, and I would appreciate it if you would consider some of the things I have pointed out. 66.228.22.27 (talk) 18:23, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

There seems to be a certain amount of confusion here between the teachings of Christian Science (which are found exclusively in the writings of Mary Baker Eddy and the Bible) and positions that the Christian Science church may have taken from time to time. Mary Baker Eddy never said anything about homosexuality (anywhere in her writings, which can be checked with concordances). A person does not have to be a member of the Christian Science church to be a Christian Scientist, and consequently what the church says or doesn't say about some political issue has no relevance to the teachings of Christian Science, except insofar as it can be corroborated by reference to the writings of Mary Baker Eddy. People who think otherwise are confusing Christian Science with some other religion like Roman Catholicism, which does indeed claim to be able to formulate religious doctrine. By and large, the Christian Science church takes a "hands off" position on political issues like abortion, gun control, homosexuality (etc.) though the Christian Science Monitor does take an editorial position from time to time, like any other newspaper.89.100.155.6 (talk) 18:38, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

As I said, the sources used here state what the doctrine is, based on what the church states doctrine is (they are the authority). Show me good sources that contradict what's in the article, and I'll be all ears. Alexbrn (talk) 18:46, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Again, you've got it wrong. The CS church is not the authority on Christian Science teaching. The authority is the CS textbook and the other writings of Mary Baker Eddy. I could show you good sources that contradict half of what is in the article, but as they are primary sources, they don't count (apparently). Weird, but there you are.89.100.155.6 (talk) 21:16, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

And your source is ... ? Alexbrn (talk) 21:20, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Well, here's one direct quote. The author was a Christian Scientist, but not actually a member of the CS church. (There is no contradiction between those two things by the way.) "Church zealots have never been able to give a rational explanation of how the church would have to be an integral part of Christian Science activity. The Founder of the Movement never said it was. Quite the contrary. She significantly chose the special Church Number of the Christian Science Journal in which to proclaim that organization is not indespensable [Journal, Vol. 9, p. 487, and Miscellaneous Writings, 90: 21-20] In this important article [...] she says we do not have to build buildings and ordain ministers, and that if we do this at all, it is strictly a temporary concession instead of a perpetual and unavoidable practice of Christian Science[....] Mrs Eddy did not herself attend church and although she lived in Boston for three years after the completion of the mammoth Mother Church Extension, she never visited it." (Arthur Corey, Christian Science Class Instruction, CA: Farallon/DeVorss, 1950, pp. 274-275.) (The bits in ellipsis have been omitted to cut down on length, but they are immaterial to the essential meaning.) The reference to the writings of Mary Baker Eddy given in the above includes the following passage by her: "It is not indispensable to organize materially Christ's church. It is not absolutely necessary to ordain pastors and to dedicate churches; but if this be done, let it be in concession to the period, and not as a perpetual or indispensable ceremonial of the church. If our church is organized, it is to meet the demand, 'Suffer it to be so now.' The real Christian compact is love for one another. This bond is wholly spiritual and inviolate.' (Mary Baker Eddy, "Questions and Answers," in Miscellaneous Writings, Prose Works Other than Science and Health, [Authorized Literature of The First Church of Christ, Scientist, in Boston, Massachusetts] Boston: Trustees under the Will of Mary Baker G. Eddy, 1925, p. 90.) Corey goes on (I'll paraphrase) to explain that Mary Baker Eddy did not require members of her household to attend church, and that she explained to them that it was a mistake for a mature student of Christian Science to want to attend church to obtain some good from it, since the work of advanced students was on a higher and broader level. (Corey, p. 275.) Corey was a dissident in organizational terms and I'm not, but the points he makes are correct89.100.155.6 (talk) 10:02, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

So you're saying that Christian Science has nothing (necessarily) to do with its church, and that this is a mainstream view? Is there a good source for this view (preferably something independent of both CS and its church) ? Alexbrn (talk) 10:11, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Yes, it's clearly mainstream. The passage from Mary Baker Eddy quoting "suffer it to be so now" is actually published by the church, so the church would have to agree that CS has nothing (necessarily) to do with the organization, whether they wanted to or not. I can't think of any other sources on this off the top of my head. But it should help to contextualize what is a good secondary source to use on political issues around homosexuality (etc.) and what isn't. At the very least, it should be made clear that any position taken on an issue such as homosexuality is (or was) a position of the Christian Science church and not necessarily of Christian Science itself, or of its founder. According to Wikipedia policies, the quality of the article is the premier concern, and supersedes issues about the status of sources (ie whether they are primary, secondary or whatever).89.100.155.6 (talk) 12:33, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

As a coda to the above, I suggest shifting some or all of the material on homosexuality to the section on the CS church (at the end of the article). Attitudes to such matters may be of interest in terms of church culture or politics, but are not of relevance to Christian Science itself, since Mary Baker Eddy said nothing about homosexuality in her writings.89.100.155.6 (talk) 12:43, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

I don't think so, since from the sources it appears attitudes to homosexuality are part of the CS doctrine. As I keep saying, we need well-sourced evidence to the contrary to move on this. I'm afraid your personal say-so and reasonings aren't sufficient. Alexbrn (talk) 12:48, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

So secondary/tertiary sources that get it wrong are to be preferred to primary sources that get it right? This is Alice in Wonderland stuff. According to Wikipedia policies, the prime aim is to produce a good article, not to quibble over primary or secondary sources. (Actually, Corey is probably a secondary source rather than a primary source.) If evolutionists are permitted to be cited in the article on evolution, why can't people who believe in Christian Science be cited on the article on Christian Science? There are double standards at work here. Part of the problem is that some of the editing is being done by people who seem to have little or no knowledge of what Christian Science is. Consequently, they are simply unable to tell what is accurate secondary material and what is not. (For example, I wouldn't try to edit the article on evolution simply because I don't know enough about it to be able to choose appropriate secondary material on the subject.)89.100.155.6 (talk) 13:59, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

I think WP:VNT answers the questions underlying what you say. And yes, it can be frustrating especially if you choose to edit an article on something you care about deeply. Alexbrn (talk) 15:11, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, I just read that link. I'm familiar with philosophical debates around the notion of truth. The sources I gave are verifiable. Also, anyone can verify that Mary Baker Eddy said nothing about homosexuality, because her published writings can be consulted via concordances, and nothing will come up if you check under the key terms. It is not only true, but also verifiable, that she said nothing on the topic. So I don't see what the problem is.89.100.155.6 (talk) 15:29, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

It's not about truth; it's about what can be verified. We have two good sources stating what CS doctrine is, and nothing to counter them. So we use them. It's as simple as that. I have explained all around the issue too if you want to review this thread, but ultimately Wikipedia works in a certain way, and that has to prevail. Alexbrn (talk) 15:36, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Alexbrn, honestly. I pointed you to the link on religioustolerance.org and you dismissed it. But you built your whole claim around a New York Times article from 1985. Social views have changed a lot since 1985, and it has been explained to you that it is not in the church doctrine. Why persist in misleading people? The religioustolerance.org page states the facts pretty well. It is not affliliated with the Christian Science church, but is an independent organization. Why ignore a source that is current and accurate. I would argue that truth is important, by the way. So far I have not read anything on Wikipedia guidelines that say it is okay to disregard truth so long as you can verify misleading content. 66.228.19.164 (talk) 15:45, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry but it's not just the NYT: if you read the section there are four mutually-reinforcing sources contributing to it: the NYT, an encyclopedia of religion, Fuller's book, and Stores' book. Two sources mention "doctrine": the NYT and Stores (quoting the CS church's attorney in a court case). Against this you have one self-published web site which doesn't specifically address the question of doctrine, and your personal opinion. I don't know what else to add. If there are any other editors reading this perhaps they could usefully add a view. Or else, perhaps we could use a Wikipedia dispute resolution process like WP:3O ? Alexbrn (talk) 16:08, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

I should also add that the section starts with the word "Historically", which carefully disclaims a meaning that this section is just about the situation today. I think the text is perfectly clear about dates: readers can draw their own conclusions. Alexbrn (talk) 16:20, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Again, it's a problem of context, sorry to harp on this, but it's true. It still just seems like you are latching onto one thing that one person said 27 years ago to push the idea that this is or has been part of the church "doctrine". I understand that source you found states it, but it is nevertheless, not the case, which can be seen by searching the doctrinal texts of the church. The Supreme Court of The United States interprets the Constitution when it comes to legislation, and the outcomes can change, and viewpoints change in regard to what the Constitution means, but the founding principles themselves do not change. In the same way, individuals in the church have interpreted doctrine which have at times been colored by societal and cultural viewpoints, but it is misleading to say that the church doctrine itself says anything whatever about this issue. No matter what somebody said in 1885, it cannot be substantiated in the doctrinal texts of the church. Again, no member of the Christian Science church creates doctrine. Mary Baker Eddy articulated it, and her writings remains the authority when it comes to church doctrine. That said, I think there is value in the facts that you bring up, but they are useful in a discussion of social views and changes, but they don't belong in a section dealing with doctrine, because they are not part of the doctrine, simple as that. Sources can be erroneous, things people say can be erroneous. But the doctrinal texts speak for themselves if you will do the research.

Refimprove

Now that the article's swathes of unreferenced material have been removed, I propose this article template is removed. Alexbrn (talk) 11:40, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

sure, IRWolfie- (talk) 11:53, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

 Done Alexbrn (talk) 11:55, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Semiprotected

Noticing the "Semiprotection" section above, I checked the article history and saw that two different dynamic IPs obviously representing the same editor had indeed made a massive number of reverts within a short time. That's totally unacceptable, and I'm semiprotecting the article to prevent any more of it. My apologies to all IPs who wish to edit the article; because of the way dynamic IPs have been abused, you'll all have to propose edits on the talkpage from now on. Please see WP:SEMI. Or why (on earth) not create an account, and edit on the same conditions as everybody else? Speaking of everybody else, Alexbrn, you've been edit warring, too, you know, but I have no taste for sanctioning somebody vying with dynamic IPs (which are for practical purposes hardly possible to block). Please everybody read WP:3RR and try to work out consensus on the talkpage. If the edit warring continues, I'll fullprotect the article. Bishonen | talk 16:47, 16 December 2012 (UTC).