Talk:Bushmaster Firearms International

Lloyd Woodson

Please read WP:GUNS#Criminal use. This section is nothing more than trivia. The sources give no indication of why it is relevant in this article. In fact, they only briefly mention Woodson had a Bushmaster rifle. The edit also includes POV wording; a semi-automatic .223 rifle is not "high-powered" and is certainly not an assault rifle. — DanMP5 22:19, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Left word on your talk page. But re-reading your note here, points I did not address -- the RSs say that the rifle is high-powered, and that it is an assault rifle. Per wp policy, what is reflected is verifiable (the goal), though I gather from you that experts will say it is incorrect. But reflecting what the RSs say is what wp call for.

I also note that what you point me to has a tag indicating that it still needs consensus. As such, it is just a proposal in wikiland.

Also, even if it does attract consensus support, I note that it says "In order for a criminal use to be notable enough for inclusion in the article on the gun used, it must meet some criteria. For instance, legislation being passed as a result of the gun's usage (ex. ban on mail-order of firearms after use of the Carcano in JFK's assassination would qualify)." Here, what makes it notable IMHO is the fact that it was the same gun that led to the DC sniper lawsuit, for which the manufacturer paid half a million dollars ... which was itself notable, as it is reflected in the article.

Also, the make of the gun was mentioned in many articles, in top level RSs, and in articles that were not just regional, but national and non-U.S. All are generally considered indicia of notablity.

Just my thoughts. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 22:45, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

I am afraid this is just another article that has fallen victim to coatracking in relation to the Woodson article and the clear agenda being pursued by those editors involved with it. _wjemather^bigissue 02:13, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm afraid that WJE is yet again engaging in disruptive editing, just like that which prompted the recent ANI regarding him at which he was roundly criticized, and that his above edit is no-purpose-other-than-disruption edit, just as most that have resulted from his spending his time wikihounding me with disruptive edits have been.--Epeefleche (talk) 04:16, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

I'll try and address this point by point.

The Mass-media, while generally a RS, is not really reliable at all when it comes to firearms. There are many errors in their articles concerning firearms, and they often add those terms ("high powered", assault rifle, and even machinegun) when describing most any semi-automatic rifle in what many say is a pro-gun control agenda.

The text of that guideline has been in its current state for several years, however the tag was added when an editor proposed some minor changes, but that discussion died and a new consensus was never reached, and the tag was never removed.

Are you saying that because Woodson had a rifle made by the same manufacturer as the one used in the notable DC sniper attacks, that this incident is automatically notable in reference to this article also? If so, that logic really fails: So if someone caused an incident with a Carcano that garnered brief media attention, it should be added to the Carcano article, no matter how non-notable the incident, because it was the same rifle used to kill JFK?

Of course the make of the firearm was mentioned in news reports, just like the make of a vehicle involved in a notable accident is mentioned. Does this mean the accident is automatically notable in regards to the vehicle? No, it is little more than another accident in its history. Now if there was something notable about the vehicle itself that caused the accident, such as the recent Toyota mechanical problems, then at least the first accident would most likely be notable in the vehicles article.

All in all, this is just another quasi-notable incident that someone tried to add to a firearm article. I see this all the time, and to be honest; the whole Lloyd Woodson subject is probably the least notable event I've seen someone try to include. You might want to step back for a second and ask yourself "is this really relevant to the subject of this article?"

Cheers. — DanMP5 04:38, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Mass Murder Weapon

An editor is repeatedly coat-racking the heck out of this article. What I want to know, is why hasn't he updated the Hyundai wiki article[1] with this similar news item?[2] How would that be much different, huh? Get real. Let's recognize propagandizing and POV-manipulation for what it is!!!BobbieCharlton (talk) 03:16, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Several editors have restored the factual text regarding the use of the indicated weapon in the recent mass murder in Connecticut. Deletion of these relevant facts constitutes wP:POV. It is not coat-racking, since the focus of the article is unchanged: the company and the use of its products. It is noted that many of the warring deletions were by unregistered editors. --Zeamays (talk) 20:27, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

By analogy, it is noted that the Wikipedia article on the Carcano rifle mentions the use of the rifle in the Assassination of John F. Kennedy and provides a link to a more extensive article on the murder weapon. Likewise, the article about the Philadelphia Derringer contains a description of the Assassination of Abraham Lincoln and a drawing of the event. --Zeamays (talk) 20:39, 17 December 2012 (UTC) The British Bull Dog revolver article includes a discussion of the Assassination of James A. Garfield, the Iver Johnson article discussed the Assassination of William McKinley, and the Charter Arms article lists several notables murdered or seriously injured with its products, including John Lennon and George Wallace. --Zeamays (talk) 00:24, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, that dog won't hunt. WP:GUNS#Criminal use is quite clear on this issue; this incident, unfortunate as it was, does not meet the criteria for inclusion. cheers. L0b0t (talk) 06:16, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Wrong again: WP:GUNS#Criminal use is very clear about notoriety. As you well know, this gun is one of several that are being actively discussed for a ban (Assault weapon ban) as a result of this notorius case. The fact is that several editors have edited the text describing the murders to make it more accurate, despite the deletions (see example below), so we can assume they agree that the mention of the crime here is relevant. Finally, your logic regarding automobile fatalities is specious and irrelevant. The other Wikipedia articles on various murder weapons are quite relevant to this case. --Zeamays (talk) 14:21, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

I have mixed feelings on this one, and I don't think the presidential assassination examples are fair precedent (particularly as the Kennedy link to the Carcano is explicitly mentioned in the WP:G#CU policy as a valid example for inclusion). If this incident does lead to significant legal changes, with this incident cited as a key factor, I could see that being a justification for inclusion. However, WP:Wikipedia is not a crystal ball, so we don't necessarily include things because they might be significant in the future. Further, though I'm not thrilled that WP:G#CU seems to be used as a pro-gun political bludgeon in some cases, I do agree that we need to avoid WP:Recentism; just because this case is highly significant in public attention at the moment doesn't mean it'll be a significant factor in a reader's undersanding of Bushmaster Inc. 12, 24, or 36 months from now. I do however think that we need to de-link the $500K Bushmaster lawsuit from this back-forth, since independent of WP:G#CU I think that's a valid inclusion as significant in the business history of Bushmaster Inc.. MatthewVanitas (talk) 17:15, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

About the number killed in Newtown

The article said that twenty-seven were murdered in a Newtown school. That's not true. Twenty-six were murdered in the school, one was murdered elsewhere and the gunman killed himself (in the school, but that's not murder). I changed the number, but it would be just as good to change the place from the Newtown school to the town of Newtown. Phiwum (talk) 01:01, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Removal of 2010 Bushmaster lawsuit

Setting aside for a moment the WP:GUNS "Criminal use" policy, why was the section == Beltway sniper lawsuit == removed repeatedly? That seems to be a reasonably significant legal incident in the history of the company, criminal incident aside, so I don't quite see why it's been removed. MatthewVanitas (talk) 17:09, 18 December 2012 (UTC)