Talk:Michael Schumacher

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lots more to say

there's so much more to say about Schumacher than is currently up here. I've started added subheadings to the career history, as someone said when this was nominated for featured article, there should at least be a full paragraph on each of his F1 seasons. I hope others can help fill in the many gaps. Spute 14:52, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Silence of the Lambs?

Does anyone have a source to say this is Mikey's favourite movie? I've never heard or seen this supposed fact anywhere...sounds like a "joke". AlbinoMonkey ^(Talk) 04:01, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

first paragraph

MS as you may Know is the 2nd highest paid athlete in the world, also is one of the most notable sports figures in Europe, Latin America, some parts of Asia. So, saying MS is one of the most notable and well-paid figures in this sport is a limitation that does not exist in the reality... To say MS is succesful World Wide is more correct, even having taken in consideration he's not recognized in the states or in parts of africa. So, please don't change the contained information. If the grammar is poor then improve it but without affecting the info.

Classification of F1 records

It's a good idea to classify Schumacher's F1 records on the basis of the year in which he attained them. I'll start working on this soon, though it might be a while before I gather all the information. Vikram 19:02, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

I have attempted to categorize the records by year. Let me know if I'm wrong anywhere. Vikram 13:41, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Number of Pole Positions

I have added some points concerning the rule changes to the qualifying format in 03->05, and the fact that this should be taken into account when contemplating total number of pole positions. Tysmeister 08:22, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

The Villeneuve incident

This article claims Schumacher hit Villeneuve when the former turned into the corner. Sorry, but as I recall the corner in question was a right hander and Schumacher's car moved left as Villeneuve passed, colliding with the Canadian. Schuey was excluded for cheating - or at least attempting to. Let's tell something resembling the truth here. 86.7.209.99 22:39, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

It was a right-hand corner but Schumacher left the door open and as Villeneuve came through on the inside, Schumi turned right, into Villeneuve's sidepod. See images of the incident: [1], [2], [3], [4]. I've reverted your change. AlbinoMonkey ^(Talk) 05:14, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism

A bit of vandalism going on right now, at least in the "Early Years" section. Just fixed it...

Pole record section = POV

The pole record section has been removed, as it was neither in the correct section, nor was it appropriate for an encyclopedia. As is always the case in sport, comparing people across different eras is nearly impossible, and that sort of apologetics belongs in its own section, if anywhere at all - opinion has little place here.

I've deleted it twice now.

If that's the case, the section on controversy, which is also purely POV of people on different sides of the fence, doesn't find it's place here. Any comments? Vikram 15:14, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Formula One records (Controversy)

I've added a new sub-section in the controversy section of the article. any POV related change please disscuss it first. It uses the most pole position record paragraph so it can be discussed here. C trillos

Most Pole Position Record

For Almost every record Schumacher holds there is controversy. for the most WDC record detractors point out there haven`t been drivers/teams good enough to rival Schumacher in his dominant seasons... at least a competition not as hard as Fangio had or as Prost had....

so it is not like there must not be a section of pole record controversy ...in fact there must be a paragraph in the controversy section that shows the not unanimity of opinions regarding the worthiness of Schumacher's records... in fact Schumacher himself has said that what he has done cannot be compared with what Fangio did....

So dear anonymous wikipedian, stop removing a paragraph like that!... if you considered POV just rewrite it!... Do not drop it from the article as it is an important part of it... C trillos

I think fact is fact. And FACT says he has 66 pole positions. whatever the conditions it is 66. Which does make him the record holder. --Teemeah Gül Bahçesi 18:39, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree. There's no controversy surrounding the fact that he currently holds the pole record. What that record means in an impossible debate is an entirely different matter. Many arguments could be thrown back and forth regarding who has been the all-time best at X, but records are records (unless you're Barry Bonds, ahem).

The statement in this section, that Senna needed to out-qualify poorer cars, what does it mean? Does it mean that his opposition was poorer than Schumacher's, or that his own cars were poorer than Schumacher's? If the latter case is implied, I don't think that's true since Senna always drove the fastest car of the time, whether McLaren or Williams, certainly not the case with Schumacher until Ferrari in 2001 (and then too apart from that Ferrari were the best in 2002, 2004 only). So the Pole Position section should be modified to reflect this. Deletor 22:55, 28 April 2006 (UTC)Deletor .

The section must be rewritten... that's all... we have to include a section that shows that despite schumacher holding every important record, he's not considered the best driver ever. So don't despair, of course it is going to be changed... User:C trillos

I had originally placed the Most Pole Positions section under the Records section of the article, as I felt it was worth mentioning it along with the records that Schumacher holds. I don't believe there is anything controversial about it, and if there is consensus, the section should be moved back to the Records part of the article. Vikram 12:33, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Driving skill

Jackie Stewart's statement: "Michael Schumacher makes more mistakes every Grand Prix weekend than any Grand Prix multiple world champion I've ever known. I mean, the number of times I went off in a Grand Prix in my entire career I could count on one hand, because if you went off the road there was a very good chance you were gonna hit something hard, and you were gonna hurt yourself, nevermind the car." should be qualified that Stewart was talking about two very different eras. The 5th gear show in which Stewart made the statement was about safety in F1, so the context of the statement is that in those days the drivers did not have the liberty to make mistakes, while in modern, vastly safer F1 top drivers always try to find the limits and going off the track is not a big deal. I'm editing the section to reflect this. Deletor 14:28, 27 April 2006 (UTC)Deletor

Why not remove this section? It is simply the opinion of one person. Besides, he is 7 times World Champion. -Krazy

Yeah, I agree. This section :only: states the view of Jackie Stewart, and that too in a context related more to safety in different eras than driver skill. This section should be removed after some consensus has been achieved - anyone else care to back this up? Deletor 04:42, 28 April 2006 (UTC)Deletor

Agree. Jackie Stewart's comments were in the context of the advancements in F1 safety that have taken place between his era and the current era. Moreover, Ross Brawn's comments were totally unrelated to Stewart's.Vikram 08:27, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Alright then, I'm removing this section in its entirity from this article, and in fact will see if it can be put in the main Formula One or Formula Cars articles' safety section, where it belongs. Deletor 22:41, 28 April 2006 (UTC)Deletor

Most WDC record - Controversial?

I frankly don't believe that there is any controversy in Schumacher holding the record for most world championships. Agreed that Fangio competed in a different era, but Schumacher's championships go to prove that he has been the most dominant driver of his era and drawing any comparison with Fangio to show his record in a controversial light is unfair.

As for the most pole positions record, Senna and Schumacher belonged to relatively similar eras of F1, which justifies the comparison of their records. Vikram 13:01, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

I added a POV tag to the F1 Records section under controversies. I don't think there is anything controversial about breaking records. I suggest we delete this section since we already have a Records section.

Agreed. It might be worth saying 'it is difficult to compare drivers of different eras', although I think that is a bit of a truism and necessary. And that comment would merely go under the records section, not in the controversies section. ... Also, the talk of using illegal launch control etc in the Benetton years section would be better off moved to the Controversies section. I just said the word 'section' far too much. Damiancorrigan 19:24, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

I suggest moving the Most Pole Positions record section from Controversy to Formula One Records, as a note to the list of records that he holds. As far as most WDC is concerned, in my humble opinion, Schumacher's record is undisputed, and that part of the article should be removed. Vikram 09:25, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Right, I've done something about it. It was long winded and repetitive, and the bit on Fangio's era being wilder has nothing to do with his records. I hope this is more satisfying. Damiancorrigan 11:34, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Brilliant, I add a paragraph and you just drop it.... furthermore a section of records must not be trashed with further commentaries... and you put no link on Fangio... It is controversy because not all the people think MS is the best ever (must people don't)... A new section called comparisson with other WDC could be the solution... (outside the records section, outside the controversy section in order to avoid POV in the placement of the section)... I'll do that some time sooner, if you let me... C trillos

The Removed Section

Lets look at the removed section in detail:

The most emblematic symbol of Juan Manuel Fangio, at being considered the best driver of all time, was holding nothing less than five World Driver's Championship titles; Titles that were won by the Argentinean in extremely contested conditions. Such an outstanding record was considered almost untouchable during many decades and in fact it was so until the first decade of the 21th century...

Long winded and irrelevant - this is not an article about Fangio

...Michael Schumacher equaled and surpassed the legendary Argentinean by setting a new landmark, unimaginable seven WDC...

suitable for the intro to the article - nothing controversial so far...

...However, every world championship won by Fangio seems to have more validity at the eyes of the critics, including a considerable portion of the media and the fans...

POV - which critics? Reference?

...whom...

Bad English - it is 'who'

... state that Fangio's racing times were far wilder and more temerary than modern times in the sense that in the 1950s the drivers didn't race with fire protective wear, nor wear a helmet, there were not protective barriers or other type of safety oriented design in the circuits and the cars were not built to protect the driver's life...

Completely irrelevant (and bad English) - danger and records have nothing in common. If we were debating who was the most daring driver, that would be different.

Most notably, critics point out that Fangio had not the benefit of team orders, even with Farina letting him drive his car during the final race in the dispute of a Chamionship.

Valid, but repetition - there is already a section on team orders.

Also critics point out that while Alain Prost had Ayrton Senna as his bitter rival, and Juan Manuel Fangio had both Stirling Moss and Alberto Ascari as his fircest rivals, Michael Schumacher has not had a rival of his own calibre which has made the German's path to success a lot easier. Fans of former Schumacher rivals would declare them as of equal status as the German. Truth is, Schumacher has been superior to his contemporary rivals and the achieved successes speak in his favor, but has himself declared that he would never try to compare his successes with what Fangio did.

Fair pointed, and I've included it.

...Though Schumacher has surpassed the late Ayrton Senna's record of 65 pole positions, a portion of the Formula One community believe that in extracting the maximum over a single flying lap, Senna's raw skill is not challenged by the new record set by the German...

What portion? Reference? How is it not reflected in the record? If there is a point here (and there might be) it needs developing.

...Senna's 65 poles came in 162 races, while Schumacher's 66 poles took 236. Apart from a significantly higher pole position strike rate (Senna's 40% to Schumacher's 28%), Senna had to fight with team mates of the calibre of Alain Prost and rivals like Nigel Mansell, Nelson Piquet and even Schumacher himself, while the German was benefited by a superior machine, specially during the 2000s, and virtually no team mate opposition...

Fair point, and I've included it.

...In Schumacher's favour, it could be argued that changes made to F1's qualifying format since 2003, requiring cars to qualify with race fuel loads, have reduced the onus on qualifying as tuning the car for a strong qualifying performance invariably undermined the race strategy. Many believe that these rule changes were introduced to end the dominance of Schumacher and his Ferrari team, and make Formula One a more interesting spectacle...

Debatable. You could put this back if you wanted.

Are we in agreement? If you want to move it to a section called "comparisons with other WDC" you are welcome to, but I don't think it makes much differece. Damiancorrigan 18:12, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you about talking too much about Fangio... Just trying to make a point...

I agree about bad english. Some things like : ...senna extracting the maximum in the qualifying, and things like ... in schumacher's favor... were not written by me.. I wanted'em out... I'm still doubtful about a new section; As it is right now it doesn't make for a new section but when it becomes bigger (and I think it'll be expanded) it can be moved... I'll have no time to watch over this, but think about this: Fangio had to fight very talented drivers and risking his life at every corner, you already accepted the rivals point why didn't you accept the point about the risks involved ? wasn't it harder to be consistant and score five WDC in Fangio's time than in Schumi's ? just a reflection... whatever, thanks for making your point...C trillos

If Rooney played football with pits of fire and brimstone around the pitch, would that make him a better player than Pele? Danger has nothing to do with ability, and so is irrelevant. Is that the only bit that you question? Looks like we agree that the rest was longwinded, repetitive and lacked references. Comparing drivers of different eras is oversimplifying matters, only the very strongest points can be made - hard facts, like the ratio of poles to starts - the rest is just speculation. Damiancorrigan 09:56, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

1994 Belgian GP disqualification

I have changed the reason for the disqualification to illegal plank, as this is what is reported on the offical F1 site [5]. Please discuss here before changing it to anything else.