Talk:Pussy Riot/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

biased article

I came to Wikipedia in order to know what the Pussy Riot did and sang in the Cathedral: I can't find anything! Where is the text of their song? --2.40.136.192 (talk) 06:34, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

Except, as noted above, they didn't sing the song in the cathedral. Formerip (talk) 09:22, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

No, they tried to sing, but they were prevented by security guards. They performed one couplet, and no more.--Distant Sun (talk) 10:14, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

We cannot display the text of the song for legal reasons. That would most likely be a violation of copyright. De728631 (talk) 13:04, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

Ridiculous.--Distant Sun (talk) 13:50, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

oh please! they put the video on youtube! what copyright are you talking about? --2.40.150.131 (talk) 05:44, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Text is here. It's not that. Nobody confuses, that the song hasn't (an) author(s) in fact? They never revealed the name of the person who wrote the text. Moreover, I couldn't find it in Internet, and I actually wrote it here by ear.--Distant Sun (talk) 06:07, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

See here for English translation(s). And BTW, just because something is on YouTube doesn't mean it is not copyrighted. benzband (talk) 09:33, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

We cannot simply provide a verbatim copy of the song for copyright reason, but we can quote the most important lines and possibly offer an external to link to the full text. Whether video song they publsihed on youtube contains more text (of the song) than they actually managed to utter in the church, might be difficult to judge/research since most reporting (that I#ve seen at least) doesn't make that distinction. One could also ask anyhow whether that (potential) difference really matters for anything.--Kmhkmh (talk) 09:42, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

The importance of partial song inclusion

I wish my English would be good enough to make this change myself, but as it's not, I can only ask anybody to add a section to the original article with elaboration on the actual song's text. There is an important context here: the song that was posted on YouTube (and that has started the outrage) was about Putin mostly. On the other hand, during the trial the word "Putin" was implicitly banned (there is only one or two mentions of this name in the sentence and the judge was hardly avoiding mentioning it) and the whole process was heavily biased to religion questions. This alone shows that "religious" charges are only a justification. 178.178.16.217 (talk) 20:00, 25 August 2012 (UTC)Dmitry

The RadFem Hub article

What's the best way to treat the RadFem Hub article on pussy riot? http://radicalhub.com/2012/08/20/pussy-riot-whose-freedom-whose-riot/ It's clearly a polemic piece rather than factual ("anally raped?" come on, there's no evidence they're being raped, or even that actual penetration took place).

RadFem Hub are on the radical fringe of the feminist movement, but still this is an article that stimulates debate, so maybe it's ok to link to it. However it's still a self-published source, essentially a blog. Maybe it would be better to include it in a different section, such as "opinions" or "reactions", where it can be linked to alongside uncritical cheerleading Guardian editorials, Christians who think they should have been "forgiven", Christians who think they should have got 7 years, Russian supremacists who think they should have got the death penalty etc. Thoughts on this anyone? MaxBrowne (talk) 05:39, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

It should be removed altogether. We have clear policy WP:BLPSPS on self-published sources on living persons and the blog post in question is not only anonymous and self-published, but clearly is smearing, including false attribution of Voina's chicken snatching act to Pussy Riot members and other false claims. --M5 (talk) 07:33, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

OK, but they have some valid points (imo) regarding the male-dominated and arguably pornographic nature of Voina's activities, which are in contrast to the feminist image Pussy Riot project. Maybe if we can find a better source this point of view could be represented in the article. MaxBrowne (talk) 10:31, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Unsubstantiated

I removed a completely unsubstantiated claim that a Church robbery in Russia was related/inspired by Pussy Riot. My very best wishes (talk) 17:09, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

The Trial

In my opinion far too much space has been given to unimportant stuff like lists of western supporters, quotes from people with no real connection to the case and details of murders that had absolutely nothing to do with Pussy Riot.

There is very little detail on the trial. What claims did the prosecution make? How did the defence respond to them? What witnesses were called? What witnesses were disqualified? What was their testimony? What did the court base its conclusions on? Was it really a "show trial"? Were the sentences in line with international practice for similar offences? We need more of this and less of the "Grotty Hotpants from the Electric Underwear Experience said the sentences were really bad..." MaxBrowne (talk) 14:48, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

I certainly agree. There is a separate article "Case of Pussy riot" on ruwiki (ru:Дело_Pussy_Riot) about this. It should also be created here. From what I read on Russian news sites, the court was real circus, with judge not allowing testimonies by witnesses of defense and ordering them to leave the court room, with service dogs barking in the court room, and so on. My very best wishes (talk) 20:33, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

Chicken Incident?

In Private Eye magazine (No. 1321; 24 Aug - 6 Sept 2012), mention is made on page 5 to a member of Pussy Riot (or part of the art collective called Voina) entering a supermarket, choosing a chicken and inserting it into her private place. Does anyone have a video - we'd like to see how shocking this is, and to avoid the supermarket.79.70.224.217 (talk) 23:54, 2 September 2012 (UTC)PussyRotUK79.70.224.217 (talk) 23:54, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

That's covered in the Voina article, it doesn't belong in the Pussy Riot article.MaxBrowne (talk) 00:11, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

Indeed, unfortunately there's quite some sloppy reporting that pays little attention to the difference between voina and pussy riot, just because one pussy riot members was active in voina too.--Kmhkmh (talk) 00:13, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

I suspect the "sloppy" reporting on RT in particular was in fact deliberate slander.MaxBrowne (talk) 00:27, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

Sources

The article adds a link after stating that some called the Pussy Riot trial a "Show Trial". I'd like to propose an article to cite: http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/comment/2012/08/the-non-trial-of-the-century.html does a good job of explaining the whole farce.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.108.233.234 (talk) 16:39, 8 August 2012‎ (UTC)

The skum

First of all - the original video is not http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALS92big4TY .... on http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCasuaAczKY&feature=plcp Second - why people delite our link from New York Pussy Riot supporters http://PussyRiotNY.com ?

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Brbnews (talk) 05:50, 18 August 2012‎ (UTC)

"Punk prayer" title - NOT a "western media invention"

It's frustrating that an anonymous editor keeps on insisting that the title "Punk prayer" was a "western media invention" despite all the evidence that the title was used by the band itself.

Here's the video on their youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCasuaAczKY. The title is

Панк-молебен "Богородица, Путина прогони" Pussy Riot в Храме

which translates as "Punk prayer "Mother of God, Drive Putin away" Pussy Riot in the Cathedral

Here it is again on their blog: http://pussy-riot.livejournal.com/12442.html

ПАНК-МОЛЕБЕН "БОГОРОДИЦА, ПУТИНА ПРОГОНИ" В ХРАМЕ ХРИСТА СПАСИТЕЛЯ

this time they had "Cathedral of Christ the Saviour" (presumably not enough characters for this full title on youtube).

2 sources that clearly refute this repeated assertion that "punk prayer" is a "western media invention". Can we have an end to this nonsense now please? MaxBrowne (talk) 02:16, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Opinion pieces/commentaries

I think it should be ok to link to opinion pieces such as that of Paul Craig Roberts under "International Reaction", as per WP:RSOPINION. It's not as if Roberts is just some random blogger. Seems strange that you can link to Kate Nash or Courtney Love's opinion but not Roberts. MaxBrowne (talk) 17:43, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

It's about WP:SPS, rather than who the author is. We never use selfpublished sources for material about living third parties. Formerip (talk) 18:36, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Pussy Riot members: antisemitic, homophobic, xenophobic

Just watched RT exclusive interview with Putin and Putin said that one of the members of Pussy Riot in the past has staged a protest with effigies calling for Jews, gays, and foreigners to get out of Moscow.

Putin said: "First, in case you never heard of it, a couple of years ago one of the band’s members put up three effigies in one of Moscow’s big supermarkets, with a sign saying that Jews, gays and migrant workers should be driven out of Moscow."

Is this a fact? Why haven't I heard of this anywhere else before? — Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]])

Yes, it is. http://www.artinamericamagazine.com/features/the-new-realism/2/Finalyzer (talk) 00:27, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

It's hard to tell if it's a fact, because the Pravda Today interviewer predictably did not challenge Putin on any of his answers. But I'm happy to call bullshit all the same. Formerip (talk) 20:26, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Like all of Voina's stunts the intention of "In Memory of the Decembrists—A Present to Yuri Luzhkov" was satirical. Putin knows this, he's just being dishonest. MaxBrowne (talk) 21:14, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Convenient thing, irony...

Group sex better than ordinary

Croatian writer Giancarlo Kravar: "Group sex is better than ordinary. Because like in any team work can take a break." These are the words of Vladimir Putin, in the first interview since his inauguration in May, the Kremlin, published the day before, and a triple Russian President was answering questions from reporters at the Museum in Moscow, where they have orgies 2008th members organized feminists punk group Pussy Riot. "Sex in public is their business, said President Putin, according to the Croatian daily 24 hours, people have a right to do what they want as long as this does not violate the law. Note: President Putin has distanced himself and said that thinking about group sex is not the personal, but from the experiences of people who participated in it. 78.2.79.68 (talk) 15:37, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

As it has been pointed out several times already, the "group sex" event was staged by Voina not Pussy Riot.--Kmhkmh (talk) 16:33, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Defining what Pussy Riot is (or is not) for the lead

Granted Pussy Riot are not a "band" in the conventional sense. We don't know much about the musical side of Pussy Riot, such as when or where the tracks were recorded, who wrote them, who played on them. However Tolokonnikova does have a musical background (her mother is a music teacher and she learned piano), so it's quite possible that Tolokonnikova was involved in the recordings in some capacity. Equally, they can be described as political activists or performance artists who use punk rock music as their medium of expression. They have released an "album" of sorts called "Kill the Sexist", available for download. http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A3%D0%B1%D0%B5%D0%B9_%D1%81%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%81%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B0

Some have also disputed their "feminist" credentials (e.g. radfemhub). It's true that they didn't mention feminism in their defence during the trial, but that's probably because feminism is stigmatised in Russia. How about this for the description then:

"Pussy Riot is a Russian political activist collective who use punk rock music to protest against Vladimir Putin and to promote feminism and LGBT issues".

Feel free to improve on this description.... I want something that all points of view can agree on. MaxBrowne (talk) 11:57, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

Category?

What's for special category for this band? "Category:Pussy Riot" contains in Russian, Macedonian and Veps Wikipedies... maybe it's good to create this one in English Wikipedia too?--Distant Sun (talk) 18:34, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Accidental rollback

My rollback of Finalizer was done accidentally while trying to check my watchlist on my phone, and should not imply this his/her edit was in anyway counterproductive. If you have no clue what I'm talking about please ignore this. a13ean (talk) 00:46, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Clutter

Several sections in this article are too long and don't form a coherent whole. This is not helped by edits such as this one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Pussy_Riot&diff=514408617&oldid=514401294

which really don't add any new or useful information but just clutter up the article. See WP:Article_Creep. (talk) 01:37, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Well, nothing tells better about the group than their own words. And frankly, "Origins, musical style, and ideology" isn't the worst section, and can be easily split. I think the article doesn't provide enough info about the group, but cluttered by opinions about it. BTW, that's one of the reasons why its neutrality has been questioned. May be we should move all opinions to separate section(s)?Finalyzer (talk) 13:39, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

NPOV

The article is not presented neutral. It sides with the part of the population who is against their condemnation but does not present the opposite view. If their protest had taken place in a public place, then it would have been a simple problem of freedom of speech. However, regardless of the links between the government and the Russian church, organizing this protest in a church was definitely not a political act but an antireligious act. This raises difficult questions besides the legal sentencing. Would the exterior world have reacted in the same way, if this had taken place in a mosque or a sinagogue? Look at the reaction of the muslim world for an insignificant trailer on the internet. The action has also had unwanted influence on the public opinion in Russia. If an act which is offensive to the Russian Orthodox Church is justified by high profile people like Garry Kasparov, does that not raise an antisemitic sentiment in Russia. People should be free to have any religious beliefs and to have their places of worship, where they are not disturbed by people with different views. The article does not show that by demonstrating for their freedom Pussy Riot has also trampled on the freedom of other people. The article shows the outrage of numerous people against the harsh sentence. It does not show the outrage of the 42% of the Russians (which means about 60 million people) against the form of protest. And it also does not show why all the people who have protested against their sentencing, have not also expressed support for the freedom of religion. Unless these views are presented, the article is not neutral. Afil (talk) 22:23, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

Frankly the pieces currently being offered in the interests of "NPOV" are quite weak, and are mostly lame op-ed pieces along the lines of "imagine if they'd done that in a mosque". MaxBrowne (talk) 14:53, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

I think I'm done with my piece toward NPOV. I will let someone else to take over, if it's not enough. :-) Finalyzer (talk) 20:09, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

My feeling is that Afil's complaint about the lack of NPOV was based more on the fact that the article doesn't reflect his own biases than any bias in the article itself. There is already a section for criticism so it's not necessary to pepper the article with links to op-ed pieces just to present minority opinions. Also, some of the sources being offered such as self-published blog entries have never been acceptable on wikipedia. MaxBrowne (talk) 02:55, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

RE: WP:UNDUE edit, please, discuss next time before removing other people's work. Finalyzer (talk) 13:27, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Majority of criticism is obviously in Russian. Personally, I don't like to reference none-English source in English wiki. BTW, I've replaced links for Abbot Tryphon statements with links to Ancient Faith Radio podcasts. Should be OK now. Finalyzer (talk) 15:00, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Max Browne that criticisms like "And it also does not show why all the people who have protested against their sentencing, have not also expressed support for the freedom of religion" and "Would the exterior world have reacted in the same way, if this had taken place in a mosque or a sinagogue?" are clearly more a single editor's own opinion than an attempt to summarize international coverage of Pussy Riot; the fact that Afil doesn't provide a single source in arguing for changes to the article speaks for itself. Right now the article seems to me a fair summary of the coverage of major international news agencies, and contains several explicit statements about domestic Russian opinion on the band. I suggest the tag be removed. Khazar2 (talk) 23:42, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

I vote for the tag removal. Finalyzer (talk) 00:19, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Uninvolved editor here. I have reviewed the evidence supporting the tag and I do no find it to be compelling, so I am WP:BOLDly removing it. --Guy Macon (talk) 07:57, 23 October 2012 (UTC)