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December 19

Place–manner–time in English - how strict?

With some surprise I just read Place–manner–time, as many years ago, I had learned manner-place-time to be the usual order in English. Now a sentence I wrote in an essay (which should use rather simple English terms, which is why I avoided "water-meadow", for example) made me think:

"[The Magna Carta] was signed at Runnymede, a wet grassland near London, in 1215 by King John of England, who had succeeded his departed brother Richard the Lionheart in 1199."

I think that "in 1215", standing after the place, is suboptimal for the readability and the elegance of the sentence - however shifting it to the very end would be a catastrophy in both regards ("... in 1199, in 1215."). I think the best would be to start the sentence with "In 1215, the Magna Carta...". What do you think about it? Is there some freedom of word order? (And any other feedback for this sentence?) --KnightMove (talk) 02:20, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

The order "by King John of England in 1215" is fine, but I'd go with "[The Magna Carta] was signed in 12125 at Runnymede, a wet grassland near London, by King John of England, who had succeeded his departed brother Richard the Lionheart in 1199.". μηδείς (talk) 02:34, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

If you are going simple. You should consider shorter sentences and active voice. Alanscottwalker (talk) 02:53, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

We can't really tell without context how to cut that down into separate sentences. But I agree, "King John of England, who had succeeded his departed brother Richard the Lionheart in 1199, signed [The Magna Carta] at Runnymede, a wet grassland near London, in 1215" works well. μηδείς (talk) 03:10, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

The relevant context is just my starting sentence (based on the introduction in the Simple English Wikipedia, but altered), which might explain why I chose passive:

"One of the most celebrated documents in English history is the Magna Carta, which is Latin for 'Great Charter'. It was signed at Runnymede, a wet grassland near London, in 1215 by King John of England, who had succeeded his departed brother Richard the Lionheart in 1199."

Would it still be better to use active voice, even though the text features the Magna Carta?

How could I pack the year best into the first sentence?

About the long sentences: I'm going to read it aloud and slowly, as a listening and understanding practice for the others. I think that some longer, more challenging sentences won't hurt, but unknown words would. --KnightMove (talk) 08:48, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

But note that "wet grassland" is not necessarily an accurate description of a water-meadow. "Field" might be a safer substitute.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:50, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

(1) Both the OP's original wording (""[The Magna Carta] was signed at Runnymede, ..., in 1215 by...." and Medeis's wording "[The Magna Carta] was signed in 1215 at Runnymede, ... , by.... " are absolutely fine. (2) If you want to pack the date into the first sentence, it would be "One of the most celebrated documents in English history is the Magna Carta (1215), which is Latin for 'Great Charter'." (3) In the second sentence I would say the passive voice is much preferable to the active voice, because it allows you to put the focus ("The Magna Carta" or "It") at the start of the sentence. The active-voice alternative would be the much inferior "King John of England, who had succeeded his departed brother Richard the Lionheart in 1199, signed it at Runnymede, a wet grassland near London, in 1215." Duoduoduo (talk) 16:10, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

I'm going to agree, this is definitely one of those times that the insistence on active voice just ruins the flow of information. Lsfreak (talk) 21:31, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

I'd agree that either form is OK, though I'd quibble about "was signed... by King John of England", because he didn't sign it - he couldn't write, he affixed his seal to it. Also I really don't like that "departed brother" bit, maybe it's my British bluntness but I'd prefer "dead" or "deceased"; "departed" mainly implies "left" to me, which could be used to describe Richard the Lionheart at any time during his reign, as he only spent around six months of his ten year reign actually in England. -- Arwel Parry (talk) 22:09, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

If the Magna Carta is the subject under discussion, then insistence on the active voice is wrong. The OP's last formulation is perfectly cromulent. But the word order is still at issue for simple english. If it is for simple english, I would say "The Magna Carta, which is the Latin name for the 'Great Charter', is one of the most famous documents of English history. It was signed in 1215 at Runnymede (which is a wet grass-land near London) by King John of England, who had taken the kingship from his missing brother, Richard the Lionheart, in 1199.""μηδείς (talk) 03:53, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Just to quibble on John's accession: I can find no support for your assertion that he took the kingship from Richard the Lionheart. Rather, all the sources I have seen say that John was named as heir by Richard on his deathbed. During Richard's absence John had been wheeling and dealing to secure his position as Richard's heir, but had not usurped his brother. So to be accurate, the second part of the last sentence should read something like "... who had acceeded to the throne on the death of his brother... " --TammyMoet (talk) 13:07, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

So all those Robin Hood films are wrong? I'm devastated! Alansplodge (talk) 16:23, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

'Take control' can be active or passive regarding agency--took control applies equally when the former dies on his own as when you yourself have killed him. I did worry about that word choice, actually, but only enough to decide it was okay here. μηδείς (talk) 18:44, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Noun-izing words, and how to refer to them

Playing an online word game, today, I wondered whether it's grammatically correct to stick an "s" at the end of any word in English, when the subject of the sentence is multiple instances of the word itself.

For example, if the speaker wanted to know how many times the word "happy" occurred in a sentence, he might ask, How many happys were there? More problematically, if the word were "dogs", he might ask How many dogses were there? (Most writers would write the two words as happy's and dogs's, but I'm pretty sure that's grammatically incorrect.)

My questions: (a) Are the above constructions grammatically correct? I know it's more clear-cut if the sentences were rephrased, but I just want to know if these constructions are correct. (b) If so, does that mean that the word dogses may be a correctly spelled word? Tarcil (talk) 05:44, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

The articles Use–mention distinction is of interest to the problem you are having. --Jayron32 06:01, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

I wonder whether it ever occurred to style manual writers to address this situation or not. I would use italics or quotes around "happy" but not enclosing the "s": 'How many "happy"s were there?' or 'How many happys were there?' But I suspect no one would approve of 'How many dogss were there?' or 'How many dogses were there?' (Incidentally, to my ear "nounifying" sounds more natural than "noun-izing". Duoduoduo (talk) 16:19, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Linguists use the word "nominalization", but not really to cover this particular situation. AnonMoos (talk) 07:19, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

A style manual would almost certainly recommend that in a formal context this is rephrased to something like "How many times did he say 'happy'?" or "How many occurrences of 'happy' are there on page 340?". However eg a satirical newspaper article might use a lighter style with deliberate use of a non-existent word for the purpose of humour: "How many taxeses were there in the minister's speech?". -Ehrenkater (talk) 18:09, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Linguistics term

Hello all! When translating a phrase from one language to another (i.e., English), sometimes I see something like:

Je ne parle pas français.

1STPERSONSING-NEGATIVE-Speak-NEG-French

"I do not speak French"

Is there a word for the second representation (stuff like "SUBJECTMARKER-PRESENT-pinch-RECIPROCAL-FINALVOWEL") ? πr² (t • c) 17:25, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Looks a bit like some kind of Metasyntax. But I'm not sure. --Jayron32 19:20, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Interlinear gloss. Lsfreak (talk) 21:32, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Yep, interlinear gloss is right. Angr (talk) 21:45, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

That's definitely it, thanks! πr² (t • c) 22:33, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

rhotic

How can I put the rhotic /œ/ in Wikipedia ? Fête (talk) 22:22, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

In an article? Can you not copy and paste it? You should also find it in the list of "Special characters" right above the editing box. If you mean as an article, we have one: Œ. --BDD (talk) 23:41, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

I guess he means [œ̃˞], which can be found in R-coloured vowel, and can be copied and pasted just like I did right now. Adam Bishop (talk) 00:05, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Where does one hear such an exotic vowel? μηδείς (talk) 03:41, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Sometimes American English [ɚ] with some degree of retroflexion is loosely equated with French [œ] (going both ways). I'm not sure what the basis for this is, but they do sound at least slightly similar. Have no idea about [œ] with r-coloring... AnonMoos (talk) 04:18, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

According to the R-coloured vowel article, that vowel is found in Quebec French. I don't know what the vowel is exactly, but "un" for example usually sounds something like "earn". (The way that that vowel is pronounced by people who were in French Immersion in Ontario is even more irritating.) Adam Bishop (talk) 07:12, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

I think that this is how a stressed rhotic mid vowel in words such as occur, prefer, or her is pronounced in certain American Midland accents. Marco polo (talk) 15:53, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

The above comments seem to be weird subjective comments by British English speakers who find both rhotic and rounded front vowels equally exotic. No American is ever taught French by being told to substitute -er for eu, and the two bear no resemblance to rhotic speakers. We are told to say "eh" while extending our lips to say "oh". perhaps this is a mattew of Bwits who have a pwobwem pwonouncing theieh doubew yews? μηδείς (talk) 18:41, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Whatever -- I'm a proud Murrkin from USofAia, and my [ɚ] is syllabically quasi-retroflexally rhotic. No real French teacher would teach students to do this, but many quick-phrases-for-tourists books have done this in their rough-and-ready pronunciation guides, and I have a book for French speakers (ISBN 2-8315-0860-6) which uses the French spelling "eu" to indicate [ə] and [ʌ], and "eur" to indicated [ɝ]/[ɚ]. Of course, this may also have to do with the recent French tendency to pronounce traditional French schwa with a kind of front rounded vowel... AnonMoos (talk) 20:56, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Medeis, I myself speak rhotic American English. My comment does not confuse the French non-rhotic vowel with a rhotic vowel. I merely observe that in certain versions of American English, an r-colored version of French -oeu- as in boeuf (not -eu as in feu) occurs. Marco polo (talk) 20:31, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

I am not going to argue that some Americans don't badly mispronounce French. (Manger le berf sounds almost as good as Fetchez la vache!) I still find it the hardest language to pronounce well that I have learned. I studied it under a Romanian Jewess with Yiddish-accented English, and she would never have suggested such a shortcut. Might as well have said silver plates means "thanks" and shut the door means "I love you". μηδείς (talk) 22:23, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

"Silver plates" might get you close to "please", but not particularly close to "thanks". Angr (talk) 16:44, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Well, mercy bucket! μηδείς (talk) 18:11, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

I don't know if you were referring to me but, I'm a Canadian English speaker... Adam Bishop (talk) 22:37, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

I was referring to all you folk. And thanks, Adam, (smiley) I shall keep that fact on file.... μηδείς (talk) 23:49, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

To be serious, I really do find this suggestion that one say "er" for "eu" quite odd. Is there any serious textbook that suggests it beyong a Ber(ullsh)itz level? μηδείς (talk) 23:52, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

I don't think anyone is actually suggesting to learn French as a second language that way, but listen to several seconds of Quebecois French and you'll hear rhotic vowels. Adam Bishop (talk) 00:03, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

French is never rhotic. In fact most people find it erotic. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 01:55, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

E-rhotic is the online version of rhotic. You know, the sound you make when you're not making a sound. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 07:30, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

This conversation reminds me of F.U.N.E.X. from the Two Ronnies. Alansplodge (talk) 23:47, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

December 20

Riistomaasiirtäjä

How would you translate this the Finnish word "Riistomaasiirtäjä" into English. (fwiw, it's the title of a song from Alamaailman Vasarat's album Valta). ---Sluzzelin talk 04:03, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

According to several internet sources, including this blog, it means "“Hammers of the Underworld”. Hopefully, one of our Finnish-speaking editors will confirm this. Sorry, that's the name of the band. Alansplodge (talk) 13:10, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

I've amended my ambiguous wording. ---Sluzzelin talk 13:50, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks but it was more a case of me not reading the sources properly. Anyhow, User:JIP is Finnish and a regular editor here; if nobody posts an answer soon, you could try copying your question onto his talk page. Alansplodge (talk) 16:21, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Looks like "Christmas bearer" at google trans. μηδείς (talk) 18:33, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

That's a hilariously novel translation, and I'd be interested to hear how Google got to 'Christmas' from 'riistomaa' (which I read as "colony"). I have my own non-native-speaker interpretation of the entire word but I'll wait to see if JIP responds first before opining. Regards, Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 21:04, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

I only got that after segmenting the word, and GT will give bad translations if a nonsense word matches various hits in searches according to whatever their algorithm is. I also got translations with colony as a part, but none of them were full translations. It is the Finns' fault for having so many suffixes. μηδείς (talk) 22:17, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

One native speaker here. Riistomaasiirtäjä is probably a pun on siirtomaariistäjä = "colony exploiter", which becomes the former by swapping the places of the R's and S's. Thus, riistomaasiirtäjä is a made-up word with no easy translation at all. As a (non-sense) compound, it consists of riisto = exploitation; maa = land and siirtäjä = mover, someone or something that moves / transfers / etc.. Hope this helps :) --hydrox (talk) 03:55, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Thank you so much, hydrox! I didn't expect an anagram at all. Though I did happen to see that "siirto" is featured as an anagram of "riisto" while unsuccessfully trying to fit things together at wiktionary and other online dictionaries. Your explanation was more than helpful. ---Sluzzelin talk 07:20, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Nice to hear it was helpful. But I just realized there's a further (second) pun in the word. To combine maa and siirtää is used in maansiirtokone, a (technical) term for earthmover. In this light, the word maybe evokes an image of an excavator that is specifically designed to excavate exploited land.. perhaps an "exploicavator"? --hydrox (talk) 08:03, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

China–North Korea border

How do you say China–North Korea border in Mandarin Chinese? I want to start a stub on this topic on the Chinese Wikipedia Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 17:36, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

I think if you have to ask that question, you should not be creating stubs in that language. My Chinese is just good enough that I think I know the answer to your question. However, I would not dare to author an article in the Chinese Wikipedia, and I don't think that you should either. Marco polo (talk) 20:18, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

I created a few stubs for topics on Arabic Wikipedia that I thought it was rather pathetic there was no article for (such as "Flag of Syria"), but more in the spirit of adventure than anything. Most of them are now vastly expanded beyond where I was able to leave them, which is of course what should happen. I stopped partly because the exoticism wore off, and partly because I realized that there was murky politics on the Arabic Wikipedia which my language skills were incompetent to understand... AnonMoos (talk) 21:19, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Marco polo, I already have authored articles in the Chinese Wikipedia (see zh:Special:Contributions/WhisperToMe). Several (such as those for Andrew Lih and Vienna Hotels) have even survived AFD there WhisperToMe (talk) 21:21, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Not sure that's a very high standard to aim at (all my stubs for Arabic Wikipedia have survived, as far as I know, though one image I uploaded before there was an article to put it in got deleted...). I never tried to write anything that I would have had to ask other people to translate (though one frustration was that I could never find an Arabic equivalent for "Naval jack" in any dictionary). -- AnonMoos (talk) 22:39, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

The remaining ones never went to AFD; they survived too. Anyway, I am just trying to make a stub, not a featured article. All I need to know for now is the name (or I could just see if the Chinese Wikipedia has an article on an equivalent topic and try to plug in "China" and "North Korea") WhisperToMe (talk) 00:20, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

The U.S. Mexico border on ZH is at 美墨边境 (first is US, second is Mexico) so I'm assuming 中朝边境 (first is China, second is Korea) would be the term. Am I right? WhisperToMe (talk) 00:22, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Yes, that is the usual term used in China. The corresponding term used in Chinese by North Korea is 朝中边境: the general rule is to put one's own side (or friendly side) first in such compounds. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 01:49, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

I should add that 边境 means the "border territory" or "border lands", so is appropriate in the context of "I took a trip to visit the Sino-(North) Korean border". By contrast, if you are talking about the abstract border line, the term is 边界. So "Sino-(North) Korean border dispute" would be "中朝边界纠纷". --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 01:52, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

The stub has been started at zh:中朝边境 - I studied the US-Mexico one to get the ways of correctly saying things WhisperToMe (talk) 02:53, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Anyway, all of you, thank you for your help :) WhisperToMe (talk) 04:14, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Other Chinese users have expanded the article. It happened in the manner AnonMoos described. One user gave me a barnstar for starting the article; I think the userbase appreciated having somebody an article on such a crucial subject. WhisperToMe (talk) 07:19, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Runners-up

In Australia national cricket team, someone just changed a team's position in a tournament from "Second Place" to "Runners-Up". I have no great issue with the change. Both term are common enough in my experience, and the meaning is clear. The change is also consistent with the rest of the table. But it got me thinking. Where did the term "Runners-Up" come from? When looked at beyond its common usage, it seems a pretty weird construction. (And does Wikipedia have a general policy on the use of "Runners-Up" vs "Second Place"?) HiLo48 (talk) 17:54, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Presumably someone who "runs up" when the winner is already at the finish line. AnonMoos (talk) 17:59, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

• It's the head noun that is pluralized here, not up which is a proposition. This is no different from attorneys general or princes in waiting. There may be a term for it which someone else can provide. μηδείς (talk) 18:30, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Post-positive preposition? Attorneys-general and princes in waiting feature post-positive adjectives. — Cheers, JackLee ^–talk– 08:01, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, I understand that, but how does "runners-up" come to mean second place? HiLo48 (talk) 20:15, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Great question, the phrase has always seemed transparent to me. But it's not, is it? μηδείς (talk) 23:46, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Nobody likes to be second best! Alansplodge (talk) 20:26, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Remember, second place is just the biggest loser! --Jayron32 23:14, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Sorry; a bit more helpfully; From the OED: "1890 A. R. STARR in Upland Shooting 471 The dog last running with the winner is called the runner up, because he ran through the races up to the last race without being defeated once." and Earliest reference is 1842. The origin of the word is from dog racing (coursing). It refers to the dog who takes the second prize, losing only the final course to the winner. Finally, 1842, originally in dog racing; see runner + up. General sense is from 1885. Alansplodge (talk) 20:31, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

It may be a subset of "also-rans". Maybe in general that's anyone other than a place-getter; but in a two-horse race like cricket, the runner-up, second-place-getter and sole also-ran are all the same team. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 04:35, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

The usage in the article I named, Australia national cricket team, is for when Australia participated in a multi-team tournament, like the World Cup, so it does mean second place out of more than two. HiLo48 (talk) 04:56, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Don't let's go

Years ago I read Don't Let's Go to the Dogs Tonight and I've always been curious about "don't let's go". Is that a Rhodesian/South African English thing? I seem to remember seeing that construction once before in some Commonwealth-originated text but a brief look through Google only points me back to the title of this book, and that sentence is not actually mentioned in the book itself as far as I can remember. Has anyone else ever heard (or better yet, used) this construction? Regards, Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 23:00, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Not sure about that. The American band They Might Be Giants have a song titled "Don't Let's Start", so there's some evidence that the "Don't let's..." construction is not peculiar to Southern African English. Noel Coward had a song titled "Don't Let's Be Beastly to the Germans", so it's a known construction in at least three varieties of English (American, British, and Southern African). --Jayron32 23:27, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Of course! Who could have believed for all the world that I had forgotten "Don't Let's Start"? Thanks— Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 03:15, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

• "Let's not go (there, etc.)" is more common in Ameicran English. But there is no problem with or foreignness at all to the 4 million hitted "do not let us forget"... μηδείς (talk) 23:44, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Speaking of that, I also realized that the uncontracted forms have different connotations for me. "Do not let us go" feels more imperative than "let us not go", whereas the contracted forms seem much closer to each other. Regards, Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 03:15, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

"Do not let us go" is a perfectly ordinary sentence in the meanings "Do not allow us to leave" or "Do not relax your hold on us" (which would be contracted "Don't let us go")... AnonMoos (talk) 10:48, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

It's an equivalent of 'let's not', but mainly in British English [1]. I hear it occasionally and have probably used it myself once or twice. Mikenorton (talk) 23:47, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

And then there's the harder-to-justify-grammatically Let's Don't Call It a Night. Duoduoduo (talk) 16:09, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Ernest Hemingway uses that phrase several times in The Sun Also Rises, e.g. '“Don't let's go there,” Brett said. “I don't want staring at just now.”' SemanticMantis (talk) 21:35, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

The construction isn't used in my (northern) dialect of British English, and I recall finding it odd when I first read it in Hemingway. We would say "let's not go" for the equivalent meaning. Dbfirs 20:38, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

December 21

Difference between Spanish language in Europe and America

How big is the difference between Spanish spoken in Spain and Latin America compared to difference between British and American English? British and American English seem to only have few differences in pronouncing and some words. In Spanish quite many words seem to have totally different meanings in Europe and America. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.251.114.132 (talk) 08:00, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

The differences are largely analogous. In both cases there are numerous regional dialects, each with some distinct features of pronunciation, vocabulary, and grammar. (see Spanish dialects and varieties, Regional accents of English, and List of dialects of the English language). ----Mattmatt1987 (talk) 16:56, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure there's any single grammatical difference between British and American English that is as striking as the disappearance of vosotros from Latin American Spanish. --Trovatore (talk) 01:39, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

An important word which has very different connotations in European and American Spanish is coger. --NorwegianBlue ^talk 23:27, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Certain people won't use coger themselves, but I have never had anyone bat an eye when I have used it. People in NYC pretty much know you are going to run into different usages. μηδείς (talk) 01:20, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

I lived in the Canary Islands as a kid, and found the local accent to be quite different from Castillian. I was told it's because it's closer to South American Spanish (even though it was North Africa). Final 's', for example, was never pronounced. A 'd' before 'i' (between vowels) became a 'y' or occasionally 'th'. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 07:34, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

It's very close to the Caribbean Spanish accent. 109.99.71.97 (talk) 16:55, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

• Mattmatt's point needs to be emphasized, though: Latin American Spanish is not nearly as monolithic as American English or even North American English (i.e. American English + Canadian English). The differences between, say, Argentine Spanish and Mexican Spanish are probably as great as between either of them and Castilian. Angr (talk) 12:35, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

But of course you are ignoring Gullah, Cajun English, Jamaican English, Hawaiian Creole, and so on. μηδείς (talk) 22:13, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Those are varieties of speech which have been pidginized or significantly influenced by pidgins, not "dialects" in the normal sense. You might as well mention Saramaccan, which has the majority of its vocabulary taken from English, but which is completely and utterly mutually incomprehensible with any form of standard or semi-standard English... AnonMoos (talk) 07:12, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

And many other variations, like black English, Glaswegian and other Scottish accents. Spanish speakers normally understand each other quite well, no matter where they come from. But I doubt that all normal English speakers would understand the varieties I cited before. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.155.46.8 (talk) 02:37, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

Absolutely agree about the relationship between Glaswegian and standard English speakers - I used to have to watch Rab C Nesbitt with the subtitles on! --TammyMoet (talk) 10:44, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

I think I have mentioned the Daly's before. Mr Daly was from Glasgow, and although his wife from Edinburgh and his American-born family could understand him, I never met anyone else who could. μηδείς (talk) 18:32, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

Differences even within American English can interfere with mutual intelligibility. I am from the urban Northeast (originally greater New York). Once during my wild youth, I was hitchhiking to far western North Carolina by way of eastern Tennessee. I got picked up by two brothers from a rural part of eastern Tennessee, and I really struggled to comprehend them. At some points, I failed to comprehend them. They didn't seem to have trouble understanding me probably because my accent is close to General American, which is the effective broadcasting standard in the United States. I also cannot fully comprehend some varieties of English from Scotland or Northern Ireland. I don't think I've ever heard of such barriers to mutual intelligibility within Spanish. Marco polo (talk) 02:23, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

I think the biggest difference is that while Castilian Spanish forms a dialect continuum with the rest of Western Romance, English is insular, and is no longer part of a dialect continuum with the Frisian language, which is its closest continental neighbour within the West Germanic languages. I find the Galician language relatively easy to comprehend as well as the Catalan language, while I have heard various dialects of Latin American Spanish (especially Argentinian) and thought at first that they were Italian or Romanian. Nevertheless, once you identify the latter as Spanish, you can adapt. But no amount of flexibility will allow you to pretend certain Scottish dialects are standard English. As for regional American dialects, I once met a kid at Summer camp whom I could barely understand. (I grew up in South Jersey.) I asked him where he was from, and he said, "Bayonne." Oh, Bayonne, France I asked? No, Bayonne, New Jersey, he answered. μηδείς (talk) 04:33, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

December 22

Hangul and more needed for politician article

Anyong haseyo, all.
Hwang Woo-yea looks to me not McCune–Reischauer or RR. Could someone possibly edit the article to tidy it up? I would do it myself, except there's the small matter of me knowing almost no Korean at all.
--Shirt58 (talk) 10:48, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

For now I added ja and ko language links.--Cam (talk) 20:02, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

Bandung

Where can I hear the word Bandung pronouncing with a Quebec accent ? Fête (talk) 23:41, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

In Quebec. OsmanRF34 (talk) 01:02, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

Doktorbuk Likes This doktorb _words^deeds 04:16, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

No, in the computer. Fête (talk) 01:18, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

I thought you'd been told to stop asking these questions? doktorb _words^deeds 04:16, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

I don't even know what language 'Bandung' is a word in. Not French or English, at any rate, so it's probably not meaningful to consider its Quebecois pronunciation. But Fete - please either stop asking these questions, or interact courteously with those who are trying to help you. It's disruptive otherwise. AlexTiefling (talk) 08:32, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

It's a Malay word. Bandung is a city in Indonesia, and is also the name of a rose-flavoured milk drink popular in Southeast Asia (no connection to the city, apparently). — SMUconlaw (talk) 09:29, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

A-Bandung all hope of getting an answer, by gar. Clarityfiend (talk) 11:23, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

December 23

Not literal translation

We have an article on literal translation. It's essentially when the translator switches words... word for word, paying little attention to other considerations (rhyme, connotations, etc.). Along the same lines, Sense-for-sense translation goes sentence by sentence. Is there a term for the stye of translation that allows for small "hedges" in the translating to preserve the original intent? For example, when poetry gets translated and the translator intentionally switches phrases or words to preserve the original rhyme or meter. A similar example is with Asterix where the translators preserve the idea of wordplay, by not giving the literal translation, but by preserving the basic ideas and making their own puns. Do we have an article on that style? Matt Deres (talk) 17:07, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

Praphrasing? I'm a translator and this is what I have to do occasionally. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 17:46, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

I have never had a course in translation, but I would think paraphrasing is sense-for-sense translation. I just ran into this in the lead of an article where we had to give a foreign phrase, a literal word-by-word translation, and then a paraphrase to clarify what was actually meant. But I can't recall which article, unfortunately. I would think that the happy middle between literal and sense-for-sense translation would simply be good translation. μηδείς (talk) 18:29, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

Free translation or adaptation? ---Sluzzelin talk 18:27, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

Ah, now that could work. Yes, that gets the point across. Thank you! Matt Deres (talk) 21:52, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

Dynamic equivalence... AnonMoos (talk) 20:35, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

That sounds good, and I'd stumbled across that article earlier, but something about it just didn't ring quite true. For one, it seems to be strictly regarding bible translations. For another, that article and those related to it (like Eugene Nida) have an odd vibe to them; they remind me of COI-written stuff we see sometimes, and I wasn't sure how widely known those terms really were (peacock stuff in the articles aside). Certainly a reasonable suggestion, though. Matt Deres (talk) 21:52, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

Actually, good Bible translators have to think long and hard about issues that other working translators (under time pressures etc.) may be tempted to gloss over or sweep under the rug. Nida and Ken Pike were reasonably well-known among structural linguists in the 1950s-1960s, and I would guess that Nida is still known among translation scholars (though Pike's Tagmemics was largely left behind in the 1960s after the rise of generative theory). Nida and Pike are easily notable enough to have Wikipedia articles. AnonMoos (talk) 23:12, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

Oh, I don't doubt that they merit articles, it's just the tone of them that arched my eyebrow. Matt Deres (talk) 16:38, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

December 24

Christine Moore

Christine Moore is an English-speaker or French speaker ? Fête (talk) 02:35, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Almost all the videos I can find of her are either her speaking French, or are obviously dubbed over by an English-speaking translator. The one exception is this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpI1O1YTQ2Q, in which she sounds really hesitant and nonfluent-- so much that it's possible that she's just reading phonetically. At any rate, her first language is definitely French. 209.159.255.226 (talk) 05:16, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Japanese word "no"

In a lot of Japanese videogame titles (and some anime), I see the word "no" in the title. What does it mean? I assume it's a fairly common word since it appears so often. --108.84.189.25 (talk) 03:28, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

It's the genitive particle, see Japanese particles; it basically means "of". If it helps you remember, it is cognate with the Finnish language and English language -en ending, as in "wooden" i.e., "of wood". μηδείς (talk) 04:03, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Very doubtful -- such cognate relationships cannot be demonstrated by accepted methods of comparative/historical linguistics. AnonMoos (talk) 06:08, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Such skepticism is the fashionable party line in the US, but it's belied by the large suite of evidence available in the works of Nicholas Poppe, Björn Collinder and Michael Fortescue, among others. See Indo-Uralic languages as a starting point. μηδείς (talk) 18:11, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

The idea that a systematic "genealogical" relationship between proto-Indo-European and any other linguistic family can be demonstrated by accepted methods in historical/comparative linguistics has never received broad mainstream support among relevant scholars. It might be more accurate to state that a number of such hypotheses are supported by various individuals in countries formerly part of the Soviet Union, with some scattered support from outside the ex-Soviet states. A cognate connection between Indo-European and Japanese could only be made as part of some kind of "ultra-Altaic" hypothesis, which might seem a little extreme even among some circles of "lumpers"... AnonMoos (talk) 21:59, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Name calling is boring, and the facts speak for themselves, as Indo-Uralic shows. Neither Poppe nor Collinder nor Fortescue (credited with demonstrating Dene-Yeniseian) is or was a Soviet citizen. Let me know when you've read Fortescue or the others. Anybody interested in the topic is invited to leave a message on my talk page if they want further recommended references. μηδείς (talk) 05:14, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

Oops-that was a mistake, Fortescue only discussed the Dene-Yeniseian hypothesis. Ruhlen was the first to formulate it and give prima facie evidence--Vajda demonstrated it conclusively. μηδείς (talk) 12:30, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

Whatever -- some theories of external Indo-European connections (though not necessarily a Japanese-Indo-European connection!) have some lively minority support, but they are simply not mainstream at this point (nor are they rapidly gaining support among relevant scholars, as far as I can tell). Since you are evidently not a linguist, I'm not sure what the point of you trying to tell linguists their business is... AnonMoos (talk) 05:50, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

P.S. The contrast between "lumpers" and "splitters" is fairly well-known in some areas of linguistics, anthropology etc., and is not necessarily derogatory. We even have an article Lumpers and splitters, which includes the following quote: "Much long-range comparison work has been from Russian linguists like Vladislav Illich-Svitych and Sergei Starostin. In the US, Greenberg's and Ruhlen's work has been well publicized, though it has met with little acceptance from linguists."... AnonMoos (talk) 05:57, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

See wikt:no#Japanese.—Wavelength (talk) 06:41, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Medeis is right in that it acts as a sort of genitive particle. It is basically 'of', but comes after the word it refers to. (To complicate things further, in female Japanese, it can also be a particle at the end of a sentence expressing a question, or emphasising an answer, depending on the intonation). KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 07:29, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

I prefer to think of it as meaning "'s" rather than meaning "of". --ColinFine (talk) 11:41, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

kung fu

Can the word kung fu be pronounced /ˈkʊŋ ˈfuː/ ? Fête (talk) 15:31, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Sure, knock yourself out. Matt Deres (talk) 19:33, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

... or read the answer provided for you when you asked the same question at Wiktionary. Dbfirs 15:34, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

ticket

Can the word ticket be pronounced /ˈtɪkɛt/ ? Fête (talk) 21:01, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Yup. I have a question for you: Can 'Fête' be pronounced as "I am a troll, and on the way to being blocked from the Wikipedia Reference Desks for repeated behaviour despite several warnings"? KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 21:18, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, seems legit.203.112.82.2 (talk) 21:45, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

He's tempting fête. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:27, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

another name for peephole lenses

Hi and merry christmas everyone!

Kurt Vonnegut in one of his novels used the word 'whosit' or some variation of that to talk about the fisheye lens peepholes in apartment doors. Can anyone tell me what the exact word is, I can't get it through google?

Thanks - Adambrowne666 (talk) 21:19, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

He uses "whoozit" in Timequake (e.g. "fitted with a whoozit, or peephole, which could also be closed and locked"). ---Sluzzelin talk 22:20, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Excellent, thanks, Sluzzelin. Nice to see you again! (Yeah, I remember reading that word and thinking it would remain in use, but 'peephole' seems to have overtaken it - though the latter is really too general - doesn't describe the little fisheye lens set into the door...) Adambrowne666 (talk) 09:43, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

As an irrelevant, but possibly interesting aside: In German it's called "Türspion" ("door spy") or just "Spion" ("spy"). In Italian too, it's called "spioncino" ("little spy"). But my favorite is French, where it is often called "Judas optique" ("optical Judas"). ---Sluzzelin talk 14:12, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

December 25

Shimmy or shinny down a rope

News reports of a US jail break report that the two men "shimmied" down 15 stories on a rope made of bed sheets. I picture them doing a 20th century dance move when I read this. The word I expect is "shinny," meaning they use their shins as well as their hands to support themselves as they descend the rope. Has "shimmy" somehow become standard usage for rope climbing? Edison (talk) 02:14, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

Both shimmy and shinny in Wiktionary are defined as forms of climbing, i.e ascending, not descending. I've heard of shimmying up a pole or a tree or a ladder, but not shimmying down. I'd never head of shinnying at all, until this question. - Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 02:21, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

In the US, it's "shimmy", and you can go up or down the same way (perhaps our Wiktionary entry should be updated to reflect that). StuRat (talk) 03:25, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

The right word is "shinny".[2] It's possible it migrated from "shinny" to "shimmy" over time because the later is a more familiar word, but "shimmy" doesn't really have to do with rope climbing.[3] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:22, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

The OED does not give shimmy in this sense. It does give shinny, glossed as "To shin up a tree. Also with down, absol., and with advb. acc., as to shinny one's way'", and marked as US. --ColinFine (talk) 01:12, 26 December 2012 (UTC) .

Adverbial pronouns

Do other languages have adverbial pronouns like the French y and en? --107.207.240.46 (talk) 03:02, 26 December 2012 (UTC)