Talk:Blue Danube (nuclear weapon)

Blueprints

The Blue Danube's genuine blueprints were put into a public library archive a decade ago due to public servant's silly diligence. Everybody could walk in and copy them. You could build the bomb with a CNC lathe in your garage then, guaranteed working. You only had to find some highly refined fissile material to fill it, that is the hard part.

Still, when BBC wrote about this issue last year, the blueprints were removed from public eye and put into secret archive. Weapons experts said nobody is likely to be interest in this design nowadays because it is so heavy at 1300 kilograms. 195.70.32.136 10:42, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Actually, it was me guv.

It was in 2002, and I have to confess it was me who spotted the files and photocopied them, before speaking to a journalist contact and a Member of Parliament. The plans were withdrawn and reclassified 'SECRET' the following day. But I still have the photocopies. Nor can the Ministry of Defence erase my personal memory banks. Probably.

For a sight of the original newspaper report, Google my name, Brian Burnell, and it should pop-up at several sites including the original Daily Telegraph report. The files contained various engineering blueprints, but the two key documents were a sectional, dimensioned drawing on foolscap of Sir William Penney's original sketch (in his own hand) for the fissile core, and a drawing of the Urchin impact initiator. I still have a photocopy of that also.

However, I worked on Blue Danube as a young design engineer in the 1950's, and agreed then to abide by the UK's Official Secrets Act. That's not a disposable committment; its for life. Unless the files are later declassified again ....

While its true to say that no ill-intentioned person would copy this design (for a variety of reasons) there are easier ways for a sub-national group to build a workable if inefficient and crude weapon. But a common misconception is that it cannot or never will be done.

Remember that such a weapon would be built to be used shortly after completion. The elaborate and sophisticated products of weapons-engineering laboratories are very different, and are intended to serve a different purpose. Firstly, they are not designed to be used. They are designed to have a long shelf life, for long-term storage with minimal servicing while remaining ultra-reliable and safe. Their only expected usage is likely to be as a bargaining chip or to wave about a bit in the faces of other states. It is expected that they will never be used. A sub-national terrorist group isn't interested in a weapon of that sophistication. And they have so much experience and skill with conventional explosives they would be stupid to branch out into weapons that they have no experience of; and use of one would invite annihilation.

I can be contacted via my talk page.

Tmayes

Those blue prints did reveal the use of a 4 piece levitated pit imploded by a hollow high explosive sphere as I stated. This information is correct and should have not been removed from this article by fast fission. I understand some persons are bound by the british official secrets act in discussing the Blue Danube design but some private persons who know about it can discuss it.

I have seen the actual blueprints of the Blue Danube nuclear weapon , and I know my description of its design is in fact actually correct. tmayes

People like fast fission* et el should realize there are some wickipedians who truly do have accurate , complete , and detailed information about nuclear weapon physics, and nuclear weapon design. Neither I nor them will actually publish anything on wickipedia that is not already in the public realm* because of the sensitive nature of this material. People like fast fission however are wrong to doubt what we do actualy write about nuclear weapons here and question its accuracy however**.I will not claim we are infallible ******* but people like fast fission are surely more fallible then we are when they write about this. tmayes

We have a little policy on here called verifiability (see Wikipedia:Verifiability). We can't just take your word on things, especially when you can't cite your sources. Especially when you've been horribly wrong in the past. --Fastfission 12:49, 8 June 2006 (UTC) I have never actually been horribly wrong in the past , but you have been

horribly wrong in the past. tmayes1965

The [British] Official Secrets Act.

Actually, Tmayes, whether a private person or not, whether you signed it or not, you would be bound by the Official Secrets Act like it or not, if you are a person of any nationality residing in, or visiting Britain. And any alleged breach would probably be extradictable.

When key workers in the UK are asked to 'sign the OSA' it does not mean that they are bound by it only after they sign it. Its just a procedural device so that afterwards the cops can more easily prove to a court that the alleged offender was compos mentis and aware of the law. All people are bound by it whether they sign or not; just as all people are bound by other laws on homicide, dangerous driving etc. Brian.Burnell 17:00, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Not everyone who knows the design of blue danube lives in or visits britian.

Perhaps not. However extradition to Britain to face the music is always a possibility. And we also know how to spell Britain. 94.1.2.86 (talk) 18:53, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Revert text to compare with the Hiroshima bomb

The British Chiefs of Staff had specified a Blue Danube yield of 10-12 kT to maximise the number of weapons that could be produced with the fissile material available. This yield was compared in my origional revision (dated 24 May 2006) to the Hiroshima bomb. Another user later added an inaccurate reference to Fat Man (should have been Little Boy) and then another user corrected the mistaken reference to Fat Man by changing 'Hiroshima bomb' to 'Nagaski bomb' which made the comparison worthless since the Nagasaki bomb was of approx double the yield of Blue Danube, and not what was intended.

• There were numerous factors embodied in the Chiefs reasons for selecting 10-12 kT.
• The available fissile material referred to above.
• The results of Air Ministry scientific studies on targetting that concluded that at that time there were few targets that required a greater yield than 10 kT, and that those few could be attacked with more than one bomb.
• The pre-detonation issue. Until 1956-57 all Blue Danube bombs used an all-Pu-239 core and the Chiefs were advised by AWRE that by limiting yield to 10 kT the small core size would limit the risk of pre-detonation to an acceptable figure.
• When U-235 became available in 1956 it became possible to overcome the predetonation issue by adopting composite cores of concentric shells of U-235 and Pu-239, and larger yields were possible without increasing the risk of pre-detonation. But the Chiefs were content to accept the targetting study recommendations of the Air Ministry scientists that 10 kT was enough.
• In accepting that composite cores should also be limited to 10-12 kT the Chiefs were also aware that at that yield, and with the fissile material available, the number of weapons possible would increase considerably, because the amount of Pu-239 required was less than that required for an all-Pu-239 core of similar yield.
• The yield specified by the Chiefs was 10 kT until the Director of AWRE, Sir William Penney advised the Chiefs that a composite core was barely possible at 10 kT and that the actual minimum yield that AWRE could produce was likely to be 12 kT. The Chiefs accepted that advice.
• Researchers should note that in the British terminology of the period, the term 'mixed core' was used for the American term 'composite core'. Sources are declassified Ministry of Defence documents archived as DEFE 32/3 E13. Brian.Burnell 00:13, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Strange claim

I would very much like to know what the basis for this quote from the page:

"Almost all modern fission devices use a composite core."

Really????

Back it up or remove it.

Yale s 06:44, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

There is an unnecessary aggressive tone to the comment here. There are numerous references in public domain literature to mixed or composite cores. In US, UK, Soviet and Chinese weapons, and the editor did qualify his statement with the word "almost". 94.1.2.86 (talk) 19:16, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Blue Danube Bomb.jpg

Image:Blue Danube Bomb.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 04:59, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Fixed. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 08:06, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Blue Danube as a cultural reference

A category has been added that suggests that the codename, "Blue Danube" is some kind of cultural reference. I can't quite work this out , and it seems like OR to me - it seems just as likely that the Ministry of Supply had a long list of two-word codewords, eg "Green Grass", "Yellow Sun" etc and this was simply another name on that list that someone had dreamed up. So it seems very unlikely to be a genuine "cultural reference" to anything in particular? Thom2002 (talk) 21:33, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Rainbow codes were supposed to be random, or at least meaningless, but in practice they were manually chosen and often had vague cultural references (chosen after all by a group of Whitehall MOD civil servants who followed the Times crossword religiously). Red Dean (prominent communist clergyman), [The] Red Shoes (Powell & Pressburger film), Blue Danube (popular music of the time), Orange William and Orange Nell (17th century historical puns), even Red Setter (a fashionable dog breed at this time). Andy Dingley (talk) 22:19, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Lol, I like it, thanks Andy. When I was researching the Polaris programme article, I found a (not necessarily reliable) story that said the "Super Antelope" upgrade programme was changed to "Chevaline" after a civil servant was told to phone up London Zoo and ask for the name of an animal like a big antelope, as they thought the codename "Super Antelope" was not refined enough for their Times crossword sensibilities. Thom2002 (talk) 07:00, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

There were several that had a horse racing context. A story that pops up frequently is that one civil servant with codename assignment duties in the Ministry had a fondness for the turf accountant and the form of horses, and that he tended to favour combinations of horse names. Then there was Red Duster (the British Red Merchant Navy Ensign), Red Rose (of Lancashire), Red Shoes (a movie), Blue Water and WE.177 was originally known as Red Flag. All have cultural references to English ears. Although supposed to be random, no one who had the slightest knowledge of the British H-bomb project would be surprised that the codename Yellow Sun was adopted for a thermonuclear weapon. 94.1.2.86 (talk) 19:16, 14 January 2013 (UTC)