User talk:Guitar hero on the roof

December 2012

Hello, I'm Jim1138. I noticed that you made a change to an article, Nevel (instrument), but you didn't provide a source. I’ve removed it for now, but if you’d like to include a citation to a reliable source and re-add it, please do so! If you think I made a mistake, or if you have any questions, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thanks, Jim1138 (talk) 10:20, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Welcome

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Kinnor

Please make sure to source your content. Also, please check your work. You are letting spelling error thorugh. Thank you Jim1138 (talk) 10:24, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, I will read about how to do the source thing now. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 10:41, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

"Jews"

I saw your message regarding "choosing" to be Jewish. Are you saying that in regard to what I wrote about the holocaust? If so, I don't see how it matters - They were viewed as Jews, despite the fact that not all of them believed in Judaism, or considered themselves members of the Jewish people - They were murdered because they were viewed as such, not because of their personal views on the ethnoreligious decision whether to be Jewish or not. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ScottyNolan (talk • contribs) 15:43, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Jewish Ethnicity

Hi. Just to let you know, this is not a complaint in any way, shape or form. I just wanted to point out how much people are all over the place on the idea of Jewish ethnicity. I am Jewish, and much of my father's family was killed by the Nazis. As you know, the Nazis (notice, Nazi does not equal German) considered the Jews an inferior ethnic group at the time. So, I have always found calling Jews an ethnic group something that is only meaningful to anti-Semites and so thoroughly dislike it. Germans saying this may very well be the exact opposite of Holocaust denial. They killed people over a false enthnicity. Jewish ethnicity is essentially in the same group(s) as the Arabs, Turks, Armenians and Persians as I understand it, with most now more heavily European through intermarriage and other less friendly things. Plus, you can be a Jew and have 0% so-called Jewish ethnicity (conversion, adoption, etc). So, as you can see, some consider the idea of Jews as an ethnic group a pro-Nazi expression (I know I am not alone). I was amazed when I found other Jews considering it to be 180-degrees the other way. Again, not complaining, but just explaining how the same issue can be taken multiple ways.Sposer (talk) 19:28, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Genetic prooves show we are an ethnic group. It’s a fact. The problem with the Nazis was not that they pointed out we are an ethnic group but the fact they wanted to kill us. I understand your position, but think about it, saying we are not an ethnic group it’s what plays into the hands of the anti-Semites who are trying to say w have no right for Israel. The fact is, genetically we are different, we are a Semitic nation with our own languages and our own culture and that’s nothing we need to hide or be ashamed off. Being afraid to admit we are an ethnicity out of fear of the Nazis just plays into their hands. We should just be proud of what we are. All ethnic groups, all minorities should be able to express themselves without fear of persecution.

That the thing, it's not a matter of how you feel about it. If someone converted to Judaism they are Jews by religion, but ethnically they are not. But if an ethnic Jew converts to christianity he is still ethnically Jewish because you don't change your genes by conversion. Jews arean ethnoreligios group, which means an ethnic group formed around a religion. You can take it as a religion or as an ethnicity, you can be one without the other. Einstein considered himself a Jew on an ethnic level but on a religios level he had nothning to do with Judaism and his views are a mixture between Deistic and Agnostic views, and it has nothing to do with his ethnicity. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 07:56, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

I know that many Jews are Jews ethnically, and others are not. I understand, but disagree on the Nazi point, but that is an opinion. I am proud that I am a Jew, but do not care whether I am an ethnic jew. I do not care either way of why I am a Jew. There is a Jewish ethnic group and the religion of the ethnic group can vary. I guess that is what Evildoer says. The American Jew article and what most people consider a Jew requires ethnicity and not another religion the way it is presented. The ethnic jew is a scientific explanation - a taxonomy. A Jew is a combination and requires some sort of tie to the religion. And at least culturally, Einstein was a Jew. If he had considered himself another religion, he would not be a Jew. Bobby Fisher did not die as a Jew (but he did die as a jew).Sposer (talk) 10:47, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

But that's exactly the point that it's not an opinion but a fact that the Jews are an ethnic group and a religion and those identities don't have to match. The Jews have their own genes which come from the middle east, the Jews before assimilation maintained their own languages and culture and even after assimilation most of them still married Jews to keep the future generations Jewish. I don’t consider myself a Jew by religion and I don’t care if my descendants are Jewish or no, but the fact is, Jews are an ethnic group , and weather it’s important or no, it’s a fact. I also don’t think it’s important if a person is a Jew or not, what matters is the human being and not what his genes are.

Bobby Fisher hated the fact he’s A Jew, but the fact is, ethnically he was Jewish and there’s nothing he could do about it because it’s his genes. I feel sorry for him because I don’t think he was a bad guy, I think the pressure on him damaged him mentally and I don’t think he had it under control. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 12:01, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

I actually do not disagree with anything you are saying. Being a jew (ethnically) and being a Jew according to one's religion need not overlap at all. My personal definition is irrelevant and unimportant. You are no less a Jew, regardless of your ethnicity, if you follow the religion. However, an ethnic jew is not a Jew if they follow another religion. The point I am making is there is no required overlap. That is all. No value judgement anywhere. Interesting conversation. Thanks. (Also, do not take any positive or negative meaning out of my capitalization. I do that because I always capitalize religions.) Take care. Sposer (talk) 14:39, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

That's actually the interesting part. Usually a Jew who changes a religion doesnt want to be a Jew and wants to be totally assimilated, by in fact ethnically this person is still Jewish because his genes didn't change. For example the siger Billy Joel. His family converted to Christianity, but c'mmon, just look at the guy and how he plays the piano :-) But really, ethnically he's still a Jew because his genes are Jewish. If he is married to a non Jew, his child is still half Jewish. I enjpyed the conversation to! That's the thing about ethnoreligious group, they do have some difficulties with defenitions sometimes. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 15:26, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war (removing established content); according to the reverts you have made on Austrians. Users are expected to collaborate with others, to avoid editing disruptively, and to try to reach a consensus rather than repeatedly undoing other users' edits once it is known that there is a disagreement.

Please be particularly aware, Wikipedia's policy on edit warring states:

1. Edit warring is disruptive regardless of how many reverts you have made; that is to say, editors are not automatically "entitled" to three reverts.

If you find yourself in an editing dispute, use the article's talk page to discuss controversial changes; work towards a version that represents consensus among editors. You can post a request for help at an appropriate noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. If you engage in an edit war, you may be blocked from editing. --IIIraute (talk) 20:41, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

About the Germans article talk page

I just came across the long discussion on Germans talk page, I didn't comment there yet but I will probably later. I am posting here because your edits seem to be very problematic in what is supposed to be an encyclopedia - deciding what certain groups of people are or are not, and that you think you know for sure what "The Jews" really are or are not (that a Jew cannot be German for example) and everyone else is wrong - are matters of your own opinions, not facts. I with you on Einstein because he had a strong Jewish identity, it makes more sense for him to be included on Ashkenazi Jews page than on Germans page. But to say that someone like Karl Marx, who probably didn't have any Jewish identity at all, shouldn't be on the infobox because of his "genes" is something one writes in a message board opinion piece, not in Wikipedia. For example, if some historian will claim tomorrow that he has found that all of Marxs' forebears were German converts to Judaism, what then will you say? "Oh, sorry, I was wrong then, he can be included in German ethnicity article"? Not that I think it's a possibility, but will you then realize that there's no specific gene that makes someone German or Jewish or Bulgarian and so on? Yuvn86 (talk) 22:31, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

I never said a Jew can be German. A Jew can be British, Russian, Israeli, anything, that’s a matter of nationality. But a person who is an ethnic Jew is not an ethnic German unless one parent is a Jew and another is a German simply because Jews are a separate ethnic group. That’s all. The problem in the discussion there is that they claim that German Jews are ethnic Germans of Jewish religion, which is not the case. It’s not a matter of opinion, it’s a fact, Jews are an ethnic group weather they like it or not. Go to the Jews article and read the section about genetics, go to a similar one in the Germans article. People come from certain origins and have certain genes which are part of their identity, which is normal. Not everyone has the same genes, which is good otherwise the world would be less interesting. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 07:48, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Exactly, not everyone has the same genes - and there's no specific gene that makes someone a German. So on what basis do you believe Marx cannot be considered German if he was assimilated and considered himself such? You think all ethnic Germans are really 100% of ancient Germanic tribes? Don't you see a problem if Wikipedia starts going by "ethnic purity" on such articles? Yuvn86 (talk) 15:50, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Einstein never considered himself German, he always said he is a Jew, there were many quotes brought there and even some of the German editors agreed that Einstein should be removed (though expressing a different opinion earlier). I don't think all Germans are 100% German, just like I don't think Jews are 100% Semitic, but the fact is, if a person has Jewish parents, Jewish grandparents and his ancestors as far as we know married Jewish people (I wonder why?), then this person is ethnically Jewish. There were always censuses and one of the questions was ethnicity, and in all censuses in Germany a certain amount of the population stated they were Jewish, and they have this question in censuses to this day. People have different ethnicities. If Marx would have 1 great-grandfather we know of who would be ethically German I would say sure put him in, but unless we have proof for that it's specilations. As far as we know Einstein and Marx were ethnically Jewish. Sure, they probably had some non Jewish genes, but were they Slavic? Germanic? Did it play a role in their identity? As far as we know they were Jews. Tony Blair was Scottish, but how do we know he didn't have English genes? Maybe he did, especially because some Anglo-Saxons actually settled in the area he lived in, but no one says he is of English ethnicity because as far as we know he is of Scottish ethnicity, and no one says it's racism if you say he's Scottish and not English, because it's effect, as long as no one says he's not British because he's not English, because that is already racism. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 16:32, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

So in other words, "blood purity" is very important in your edits. Well, this is 2013 and not 1930's you know. Nothing made Marx Jewish except for maybe a chromosome that goes back to biblical Jews 2,000 years ago, and that's it. To insist he couldn't be a true German because of that is a creepy matter of opinion, not fact. And for the record, I'm of Jewish background too, like you, I am not a German who writes this because he feels gulity for the Holocaust or anything. Yuvn86 (talk) 15:03, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Reading your comment looks like you wrote what you have to say even before you read my answer. I said "blood purity" doenst exist, but ethnicity depends on what a person sees himself and on what his family saw itself through the years. What do you mean by "true German"? Your genes don't prevent you from being a German citizen. But if you call a "true German" in the ethnic sense (though now the racism comes from you, so a German citizen is not a true German?), then yes, you can't be ethnically German if you are not ethnically German. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 18:34, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

January 2013

Hello. It appears that you have been canvassing—leaving messages on biased users' talk pages to notify them of an ongoing community decision, debate, or vote—in order to influence Talk:Germans. While friendly notices are allowed, they should be limited and nonpartisan in distribution and should reflect a neutral point of view. Please do not post notices which are indiscriminately cross-posted, which espouse a certain point of view or side of a debate, or which are selectively sent only to those who are believed to hold the same opinion as you. Remember to respect Wikipedia's principle of consensus-building by allowing decisions to reflect the prevailing opinion among the community at large. Your canvassing was about as blatant, biased, and one-sided as it can get. Do this again and you will be blocked. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 23:30, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Talkback

Hello, Guitar hero on the roof. You have new messages at Malik Shabazz's talk page.
Message added 06:29, 10 January 2013 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Germans TP

Listen, I don't know what you try to do-but please don't ever touch my comments. Please restore them all on the TP. If you fail to do that I will open an AN/I case against you. I'm getting the impression that your calling to me to participate in this discussion is not a coincidence -did you have any other username on Wikipedia and did we ever got to contact of any kind on Wikipedia? --Gilisa (talk) 17:19, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Hi! You can be sure I didn't delete them on purpose, I tried to delete and re-write the ending of my sentence so sorry for that. I will return whatever I find! Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 18:37, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

I returned one. Was there anything else I deleted and need to return? I'm really sorry for it! Really didn't mean to! I wouldn't do it (especially because I agree with it). Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 18:46, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Restoration of non-neutral section header at Talk:Germans

Section headers must be neutral rather than pushing your POV. "In Conclusion: Concensus to remove Einstein and_Marx" is seriously misleading. There may have been a temporary shift of consensus right after your canvasing campaign (for which you were warned separately), but that does not mean things can't return to normal now that the problem has been mentioned to the wider community at WP:ANI.

Don't edit war to restore the POV heading. [1]

Also, I note your continued refusal to acknowledge that your racist definition of ethnicity is at odds with modern mainstream definitions. Simply repeating the same incorrect claims does not help. I paid for an argument; this is not an argument, its just contradiction. Hans Adler 13:18, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Repeated canvassing for Talk:Germans

• 9 January: Blatantly non-neutral notifications to 5 editors [2]. You were warned for this by Demiurge1000.
• 13 January: Blatantly non-neutral notifications (fake sense of urgency, programming a result) to 5 editors [3]
• 15 January: Urging 6 editors to participate in the discussion: the 5 you canvassed before and 1 who you know disagrees with you and was going to comment anyway. [4]

Hans Adler 14:01, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

It's not canvassing rather asking if they want to add something. Where do you see me telling them what to say? Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 14:28, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

ANI

I mentioned you at WP:ANI#User talk:Guitar hero on the roof. Hans Adler 14:15, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

I suggest not call other people racist and strike any personal references to the editors in your last post.--Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 14:36, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Anyone who claims that ethnic Jews can't be ethnic Germans obviously subscribes to a completely outdated, racist definition of ethnicity. Talk:Germans is full of clearly racist statements by this user, and this is relevant to the behavioural problem.

Example: "A person can choose an identity, like an Italian American can see his main identity as American and not feel Italian in any way, but ethnically he will still be Italian, it's not changeable. It's your genes, where your ancestors came from. I don't see what's your problem just admitting the fact that Jews are a separate ethnicity. Einstein never identified as a German but for a reason a few Germans here insist on having some ownership on him (after trying to kill him and his people)." Hans Adler 15:00, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

And it's 100% true. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 19:24, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Blocked

You have been blocked temporarily from editing for abuse of editing privileges. Once the block has expired, you are welcome to make useful contributions. If you think there are good reasons why you should be unblocked, you may appeal this block by adding below this notice the text {{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}, but you should read the guide to appealing blocks first.

I've blocked you 48 hours for this, coming on top of all the warnings and discussion. For future reference, when you are under scrutiny and are the subject of discussion at AN/I, it's probably better to avoid calling anyone a "troll". I'd also like you to avoid the area of ethnicity entirely when or if you return. Thanks, --John (talk) 17:47, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

First of all, I was called racist and neo-Nazi but no one did anything about it. Second, when I return I will edit on ethnicity. In the discussion there were many people presenting the same view and arguments as me. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 19:37, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Who called you a neonazi? That would be a very serious offense - please provide a diff so we can punish the culprit.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 19:47, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

What about this [5]?His violation of WP:NPA didn't happen in the vacuum--Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 20:20, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

With all due respect Guitar hero had been throwing around persona attacks for two weeks before Hans Adler even showed up. And He is not calling Guitar hero a neo-Nazi he is pointing out the fact that we don't know eachother's identities and that we can't use claims about our ethnicity as leverage in discussions.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 21:13, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

This is the link: [6] And here is what Hans Adler said: "don't know if you are really a Jew, a trolling neo-Nazi or just looking for 'fun' at this article. And pointing to a discussion in which you made comments of this nature as evidence that a long-standing consensus has been replaced by a new consensus (after your extended canvassing campaign) that can now no longer be changed – that was a bad move. We are no longer in the 1930s, when racism was an uncontroversial mainstream opinion." I think that's someting Adler should be blocked for. I said ethnicity is based on genes and identity, I never said one ethnicity is better then the other simply because I believe everyone are equal. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 20:39, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Now here is a quote from the ethnicity article: Among the first to bring the term "ethnic group" into social studies was the German sociologist Max Weber, who defined it as:

"[T]hose human groups that entertain a subjective belief in their common descent because of similarities of physical type or of customs or both, or because of memories of colonization and migration; this belief must be important for group formation; furthermore it does not matter whether an objective blood relationship exists."

And that's exactly my point! I'm a Jew with ancestors who lived in Germany, but they could never claim German ethnicity (not that they wanted to). Why? Because Jews and Germans are different ethnicities, though can share a common nationality! They don't have belief in common descent (genetics) and they don't have common memories of migration (how the German tribes in Germany formed one only ethnic identity has nothing to do with how Jews formed their's) Also, the Jews came to Germany, lived in closed communities, then most of them left to eastern Europe, then a lot of them came back, and again lived in closed communities. Then came the emancipation and Jews assimilated culturally, but think! Why did Einstein's and Marx's ancestors marry only the Jews? Einstein himself stated he didn't see it as a religious identity but as an ethnic identity. And that's the point, Jews remained a separate ethnic group, otherwise they wouldn't exist anymore and their children would know only of Germany identity. Those are two different ethnic groups with different origin and history! I don't see where is the racism in what I wrote. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 20:50, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Another link: [7] "While you can't change your ethnicity, you can work to get better quality healthcare and better access to early detection tools". Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 20:55, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

That is a typically American use of "ethnicity" as a euphemism for race and it is also not a reliable source but a promotional website about cancer research. When you say that "ethnicity" is fixed in the genes that is racist because it relies on the idea that ethnic groups are pure and characterized by essential biological characteristics which is demonstrably false. Yes there is often a tendency for ethnic endogamy but it is always only a tendency and there is not a single individual on earth who has genes from only a single ethnic group. And yes Jews could claim German ethicity and many did, giving up their names, their religion and their culture in order to become ethnically German. Then along came Hitler and redefined Jewishness in terms of race and genetics - and they were legally stripped of the ethnicity they had already claimed. Now about returning to editing you cannot keep doin what you have been doing: you need to stop canvassing, you need to stop thinking that your claim that something is a fact is a valid argument without supporting it with reliable sources, and you need to start listening to what other editors say and respond to that without misrepresenting their statements. If you do this you can come back and edit any topic you like and espouse whatever POV you like.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 21:17, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

If you read the whole discussion you would see that I stated many times there is no such thing as "blood purity". Everyone have genes coming from a different place. Jews have mostly genes from the middle east, but they also have genes of people who converted to Judaism or from the pogrom rapes. The English have some Scandinavian blood. The Germans have some Slavic blood. It's obvious! But the point is, when you see a person where as far as we know he, his parents, his grandparents were Jewish, there is no reason to assume he has any other ethnicities he has any other ethnicity but Jewish, because as far as he's concerned he has no other ethnicity.

Jews in Germany never claimed to be of German ethnicity, otherwise they would not keep on marrying Jews. Jews were stripped of their nationality, they were kicked of a country they were loyal to. Einstein said it clearly when he said he is Jewish and wants nothing to do with Germans, while never in his life he referred to himself as German. In the cencuses in ethnicity people were stating Jewish. It says it all! They were Germans by nationality, but not by ethnicity. The fact that Einstein's and Marx's ancestors made sure to marry only Jews shows they did see themselves different from Germans and didnt't see themselves as the same ethnicity! It has nothing to do with nationality though. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 21:39, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Look the issue is this: just because you consider yourself a Jew you don't get to define other's ethnicity for them. You cannot simply assume that your idea of ethnicity is shared by everyone who is a Jew, and that everyone who is a Jew consider themselves to be only Jews and not have any other ethnicity. And frankly the notion that you keep repeating that the only way for "gentile genes" to pass into the Jewish people is through rape is offensive in the extreme, and also of course factually incorrect. In the case of Marx you are speaking against his own explicity statment that he was not a Jew, just like his father also didn't consider himself a Jew. Yes they had Jewish ancestry, but just like Einstein disowned his German ancestry they disowned their Jewish ancestry. The quote you picked form the article on ethnicity shows this - the ethnic group is not defined by actual blood ties, but by the idea that there is a shared heritage. And finally you need to realize that your view is only one of many views, and not "a fact". When it comes to ethnicity and identity there are no facts, only an extremely complex mosaic that keeps changing over time.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 21:51, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Einstein didn't have any known German ancestry. As far as we know, he was of full Jewish descent. That's all I'm going to say here.Evildoer187 (talk) 06:02, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

You can't denounce ancestry, you can't change where your father was born and what he did. What Einstein renounced was citizenship, but nationality is changable. Could Elton John decide his not of English ethnicity anymore? Could he delete his Anglo-Saxon ancestors? That's my point! From the other hand, can I become a Zulu? I like Zulu history, know their cultures, but can I decide I am them? Know, because that's not my ethnicity and tthe history of my family and their origin.

When he spoke about blood ties he refered to literally family ties like in a tribe. Obviously ethnicities didn't start from one man but from tribes uniting and creating a new identity replacing their old ones!

If you read Marx's biography you would see that the reason his father changed a religion was anti-Semitism which would prevent his sone from making a career. The fact is, though changing religion, you can't change who your ancestors are.

You are right by the fact ethnicity is defined by shared heritage, but part of the heritage is history, and part of the history is origin, the last two parts are somehow connected to genes because genes are shaped in those proceces.

When you call me racist I don't think it's fair. If you would know me you would know the fact I hate racism, I think people should marry into other ethnicities so their kids could identify with as many ethnicities as possible and I can't stand all types of discrimination or hate based on sex, ethnicity, race, colour or social status. Racism is when someone says that someone is better then someone else because of one of those factors, and that's something I would never support! Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 22:47, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

I do not call you a racist. I say that certain things you say rely on and perpetuate racist views and attitudes. I think most people sometimes say things that others consider racist. I would only ever call someone a racist if they unashamedly considered races o exist and their own to be the superior. To say that ethnicity is fixed in the genes is however a statement that produces racism, and which relies on racist misunderstandings of the relation between culture, history and genes. Elton John could start defining himself as non-British by focusing instead on his Irish, Danish or Norman ancestors, and you could become a Zulu if you went to South Africa learned the Zulu language and were accepted by the Zulus as one of their own, particularly for example if you had been adopted into a Zulu family at a young age. It is right that some ethnic groups would never accept a member that looks phenotypically different, but for just as many ethnic groups that is not the case and you can become a member if you share whichever values and customs they consider defining of their ethnic group.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 00:30, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

By the way, I forgot to respond you about the rape thing. It's no actually a "Jews against non-Jews" claim. Every ethnic group which was ever occipied or minority that was attacked experienced rapes. Jews before the emancipation lived in closed communities and if you married a non-Jew you would be expelled. The only way to get a child from a non-ethnic Jew would be to marry a convert, or the horror of being raped. When studying history in university it was mentioned that after pogroms many women gave birth 9 month after the attacks while they got married after they got pregnant, that's something that happened to a smaller scale at other times. Do you understand what I mean now? Unfortunately, many experienced it. Russian women were raped by Mongolians, Serbian and Bulgarian by Turkish, Native American by white men, I never said it was something that was aimed only at Jews.

Elton John could start not identifying as British, true, but British is not ethnicity, it's a nationality. But if he has no other ethnicity by English, could he start identfying as non-English? He could, but what he change the fact his ancestors were Anglo-Saxons and through all those generations considered themselves English? That's the point.

I could become a tribe member of Zulu if I go through a certain procedure (which would be awesome), but it wouldn't create a common origin and history, which is an important part of ethnic identity.

In the articles English people and Scots they don't have even one Jew or black person, why? Because they are not ethnically English. But would anyone doubt the fact they are British? Maybe BNP, but those are nutcases, no one cares what they think. The fact is, a black person and a Jew are as British as an English person and a Scotsman. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 08:22, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

• Let me rephrase slightly. I shouldn't have said "I'd also like you to avoid the area of ethnicity entirely when or if you return." I should have said "Avoid the area of ethnicity from this moment forward." Here's why. You have made several statements regarding ethnicity and race that are not only deeply offensive but extremely unhelpful to our task here, to jointly build a free encyclopaedia. It seems apparent to me that you are unable to discuss these topics in a constructive or collegial way with others. Until you realise that this whole area has been a very difficult and sensitive area on Wikipedia and in the wider world (the Holocaust is a case that springs to mind), and also that there is a substantial body of scientific and other academic work on the topic, and become familiar with it, there is no benefit to your involvement in the area. I am also not here to discuss ethnicity or race with you, but to forbid you from doing so, as long as you continue to promote your ideas in such a way. There are of course lots of other places on the Internet where you can discuss your ideas, but this is not one. What I suggest you do going forward if you still wish to edit is to spend your remaining block period reading up on some of the history of this topic on Wikipedia, come back and edit other areas not related to race or ethnicity for say three months, and then request (if you wish) a relaxation of your topic ban. Of course, we are still discussing it at AN/I and it may be that consensus will go against my proposal in which case we shall have to see what we do next. In any case, I will certainly block you again (or extend your block, if applicable) if I see you make any more edits like this one in which you make offensive racial statements or this one in which you misuse a source to promote a racial point. I am terribly sorry in a way to have to block you and place this restriction on you because I know you are quite new here. But you have to realise, we are not here to chat, we are not here to discover new things, but only here to assemble and weight the existing sources then summarise them to build an encyclopaedia. Not everybody is cut out to do this and editing here is a privilege, not a right. If you want to talk further with me here, then you may do so, as long as it isn't a continuation of your racial theories. If you want to request an unblock then you may use the template in the block notice. And if you want to post something for consideration at the AN/I discussion then simply do so here and one of us will copy it for you. Best regards, --John (talk) 23:06, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Did you actually read the discussion though? There were many editors on the Germans talk page who agreeed with my terminology, and most of them were Jews like me. The thing is, before Adler re-started the discussion we actually reached a compromise with those we argued with. That's the thing, Wikipedia should be objective, not based on emotions. The Holocaust didn't happen because a German said "You Jews are not ethnically German", Jews never claimed they were otherwise they wouldn't state they are Jews on a census, the Holocaust happened because a German said "You are Jewish therefore you don't have the same rights as us and you are less of a German national", that's what happened.

It's a fact, ethnicity is based on history (including origin) and identity, so it is a fixed thing, and no one ever said it's changable in academic literature! The point is, when someone clames that Jews are a religion and not an ethnicity, that's racism, but no one got blocked for claming that in the discussion. When Adler claimed that Sorbs are of German ethnicity, the last person to claim that was Hitler. Sorbs themselves are very protective of their identity and uniquiness!

I don't see how what I said was racist or offensive. The fact is, in this discussion on top I brought you a quote of a guy who called me a neo-Nazi. A German calling a Jew neo-Nazi! But for a reason that goes unnoticed and he is not blocked, though it was clearly said on the ANI discussion about him that he tries to promote a new definition of ethincity. Also, he said Sorbs and Jews should be considered ethnic Germans so they could get equal rights and treatment, that's a dangerous view because basically only if you say your ethnic German you deserve equal treatment. Those are racist views! Not mine. You are right, it's not a forum, but the discussion happened because we are talking about definitions which are not agreeable by everyone. I actually agreed to many forms of compromises! Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 08:22, 17 January 2013 (UTC)