Wikipedia talk:In the news/Archive 44

Archive 40

←

Archive 42

Archive 43

Archive 44

Archive 45

Archive 46

→

Archive 50

Stale RD

Rees Mogg and Greig both died before oldest story in main template: that was agreed as threshold for removal. Kevin McE (talk) 09:38, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

 Done Spencer^T♦C 17:01, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia:ITN/A should probably contain a note in regards to this, and some text on RD in general. , LukeSurl ^{t c} 17:32, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Now that a story from the 26th has been added back "for balance", these two are not comparatively stale. Kevin McE (talk) 20:06, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

I don't think we need to pop on and off RD items too. Maybe once they are off the first time, they don't go back up even if older full-sentence items come back "for balance"? Spencer^T♦C 05:03, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

The Chinese high-speed rail line story was also from December 26, so I'm not sure what caused you to make the initial notification. -- tariqabjotu 05:10, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

I was mislead by a quick glance at the noms list by the Chinese subway nom: my error. Kevin McE (talk) 10:34, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Proposal - Remove Dakar Rally from ITN/R

Please see Wikipedia_talk:In_the_news/Recurring_items#Proposal_-_Remove_Dakar_Rally_from_ITN.2FR. doktorb _words^deeds 11:40, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

Auto-nomination of big-time ITN/R events

The emphasis on big-time slam-dunk ITN/R events like the Super Bowl, NBA Finals, World Series, Academy Awards and other major ITN/R items seems to always be more about who can rush over to ITN/C and nominate it first, rather than getting the article updated so it can be posted sooner rather than later. In fact, it will be interesting to see who takes home the coveted "Speedy Pete" award for the nominator of the Super Bowl this Sunday (Go Ravens!). I myself will admit to competing for this prestigious award as well in the past. Instead of the usual race for nomination, why don't we look into having major events like the Super Bowl and other sure-fire nominations get added in by AnomieBOT at the same time as the daily date-section postings. This way, the event is nominated well ahead of time, we can vote on it, when it's over we can update it, and it gets posted relatively quickly. The bot would just be programmed to post a basic nomination (with the bot as being listed as the nominator) along the lines of the usual "X defeats Y in the World Championship". Sources, name(s) of updater(s), and the final blurb can be added in by anyone when they are available. I'm not saying these events should be automatically posted, but they should be at least automatically nominated. What do you think? -- Anc516 (Talk ▪ Contribs) 01:44, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

TBH, I'm more excited to see on who'd be the first one to oppose. I'm betting on... –HTD 03:23, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

I think you and I are thinking alike here (we may even be thinking of the same one)... How about an over-under on how many will oppose?--WaltCip (talk) 18:56, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

lol that's too hard. It depends on how contentious the discussion would be. How about an over/under on:

• How many hours since it was updated would pass before an admin posts it? (My bet would be 25 hours.)
• How many kilobytes of discussion would be wasted? (2/3 as many as Ted Kennedy's.)
• What percentage of oppose votes would be "ZOMG US BIAZ" (90%)

This should be more exciting than the game per se lol –HTD 18:53, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Your constant rehashing of this is really tiresome. Exactly how many votes were there at ITN?C agiainst this event at ITN/C last year? And how many on the grounds you suggest? Kevin McE (talk) 19:53, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

I honestly don't think this is too much of an issue. This could start a whole other debate on which ITN/R items should be bot nominated, and I think the current system is effective enough in allowing the item to appear. That said, items need to be nominated on days they occur (although the issue is more renominating the same, previously nominated item, at a later date, not the other way around). Spencer^T♦C 06:05, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

I second that. The system works well as it is. Besides, I dread to think of a discussion about what items to include on such list... --Tone 09:40, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

I don't see that being a problem. As I said above, this would only be used for the most popular of worldwide ITN/R sporting and entertainment events. -- Anc516 (Talk ▪ Contribs) 18:14, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, well, there's a significant cohort looking to get rid of ITNR altogether, so I don't know that you'll get much traction for your proposal from them. --Jayron32 18:16, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Many years ago I suggested a system whereby events, including ITNR items, could be pre-nominated on WP:ITN/FE and then transferred to the candidates page by the bot when it created the relevant day. It would require sticking to a fixed format and/or using the template properly, but nothing outrageously difficult. Nothing ever happened. Worthwhile? Modest Genius ^talk 20:04, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Support votes for ITNR useless

Tariq brought up the point for superbowl that has been said over and over again. I suggest we put a note in the ITN template for ITN/R events where it states "Support votes are not required" and also perhaps on ITN/C as well. People can continue to oppose if they like but there is really no need for support votes. If it gets enough opposes then perhaps its worth discussing if it should be even on ITNR and the discussion can evolve to removal from ITNR instead. Myself and im sure many others find the support votes for ITNR items utter waste of time and space. -- Ashish-g55 19:30, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

If ITN/R genuinely only contained items for which we could be confident that there will be a consensus as to importance, the premise would be true and the proposal would be sound. As items listed at ITN/R are routinely challenged (due to the tiny input to discussion on listing, and the unclear nature of the votes there), they will sometimes require support to be shown. Pile-on support where there is no opposition is of course rather pointless, although harmless. Kevin McE (talk) 19:49, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

In either case its opposes that matter for ITN/R events. I dont think supports add any value since an updated ITN/R will go up regardless of supports... Again we already know that this will not stop anyone from supporting but perhaps it "might" reduce the length of pile on supports for ITN/R items -- Ashish-g55 20:06, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Items that are ITN/R have indeed been rejected despite updates. Until ITN/R is either disbanded, or reduced to include only items for which there is a genuine confidence that they would gain consensus for importance every year (and I see very few votes in ITN/R discussion on that basis), it cannot be taken as having the authority of consensus, and so it has no authority on wikipedia. Kevin McE (talk) 20:28, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

The relevant question, in my view, is whether the concept of ITN/R itself is backed by consensus. If it isn't, it should be shut down. If it is, any inappropriate items should be challenged there, ideally well in advance of their next recurrence, with consensus required for their retention (not their removal).

Either way, I see no point in supporting or opposing these events at ITN/C, which doesn't address the underlying problem. And I certainly disagree with the idea of permitting opposition but not support. (How can we possibly gauge consensus if only one opinion is allowed into the discussion?) —David Levy 21:21, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

i am not saying don't debate, i am saying there is no need for support !votes. or oppose !votes for that matter. -- Ashish-g55 21:34, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

I agree that "support" and "oppose" comments, expressed at ITN/C instead of ITN/R's talk page, are unhelpful. I was addressing your statements that "people can continue to oppose if they like but there is really no need for support votes" and "its opposes that matter for ITN/R events. I dont think supports add any value..." —David Levy 21:43, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

The support votes aren't useless; the nomination is useless, as neither support nor oppose votes on update should matter if ITNR works properly. But given an apparent insistence that these types of nominations continue to occur, ITNR is the real problem. In most cases, updates take longer to materialize than consensus regarding importance does anyway. And people seem to have forgotten the problematic squabbles that led to ITNR's establishment in the first place, or prefer that they happen regardless. Those squabbles are then compounded by those that occur at ITNR when someone dares to suggest that an item be removed. Really, at this point in time, ITNR just has no purpose. -- tariqabjotu 22:07, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Well the nomination is needed just to get the blurb going and talk about updates. Its really the pile on supports for stuff like superbowl thats useless. perhaps we can put a note "Discussion of exclusion/inclusion should take place at ITNR" or something similar. -- Ashish-g55 00:20, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

There seem to be two points. Opposes may simply be votes that the item is not notable regardless of the ITNR status. And a lot of supports simply seem to be based on ignorance of the rules. Doing away with ITNR as such might help in both cases. μηδείς (talk) 01:06, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

• The reason support and oppose votes are helpful for ITNR items is that there are two requirements for ITN: Article quality and coverage in the news. ITNR events are presumed to meet the second, but the first would still need to be assessed every time an ITNR event comes up. The article needs to have a sufficient update and lack any glaring problems. There are many ITNR items that rightly fail to make the main page because the article never gets updated. That's why we need to vote on them too. --Jayron32 01:42, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

  Um, ok. But what are the odds that an article about a particular game has been sufficiently updated four hours before the game has even begun? -- tariqabjotu 02:00, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

  In any case we dont need to "support" or "oppose" based on update. Nothing will go up on ITN without a proper update thats a given rule. Notability is what people !vote on which really makes no sense for ITN/R item. maybe we can leverage our [tag] and mention [Recurring] to emphasize that notability has already been determined, please go argue at ITN/R instead? We have to remember when someone new steps into ITN/C and sees a superbowl nomination their first instinct will be to support looking at all the other nominations. This problem could just be solved by changing the optics of ITN/R items. -- Ashish-g55 02:49, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

That's not exactly the case. because various Items have indeed ben posted to ITN/RD even thought they haven't been updated. Requiring items actually be updated is not problematic. μηδείς (talk) 03:17, 4 February 2013 (UTC)