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Character designer discussion at WT:SE

Heads up: there's a character designer discussion over at WT:SE#Character designer question. Input from project members would be appreciated. Thanks, Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 17:46, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Since there are some concerns about the recent activity by Niemti, who is currently the subject of an RFC, I think we should delete these categories while we're still waiting for an AN thread about the proposal to ban him from the WP:VG subpages. The articles need information about the designer and the categories are unnecessary per Tintor2 and PresN. The possibility of a WP:CFD was not discounted by ProtoDrake, one of the people involved in the discussion. Does anyone have thoughts about this? Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 23:33, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

That reminds me. I noticed that the RFC is not listed at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/User conduct/UsersList anymore. Is that an oversight or are we now realizing that the RFC has no purpose? GamerPro64 23:46, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

The RFC is still active and still has a purpose, but it was closed following a topic ban on Anita Sarkeesian was enacted, and that was boldly reverted by Salvidrim (see also this). Also, the ban proposal on the WP:VG and its subpages are not up at AN or ANI yet. Surely if there are still active issues with Niemti (which there still are), maybe it's time to discuss a ban of some sorts? Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 02:53, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Also, I know this is late, but the RFC was relisted at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/User conduct/UsersList. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 21:57, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Possible ban discussion on Niemti?

Since ProtoDrake (talk · contribs) has raised a point that the issue with Niemti (talk · contribs), who is currently the subject of an ongoing RFC has not been brought up at AN/ANI yet, and with the discussion of a possible ban on this user from the project now stored in the archives, I think that this is really the time to discuss the best course of action to ban Niemti from WP:VG to minimize disruption in video game articles. Personally, I would suggest that a thorough summary of the evidence should be created before taking this up to AN or ANI and that multiple people will need to check and agree that evidence shows a significant problem; really bad results will occur when a report is taken to AN/ANI prematurely - really good evidence should be needed first, with a few clear cases that onlookers can understand. Thoughts or ideas on how to proceed with this? Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 03:29, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

Let me break the ice by stating this: why did the first banning attempt fail? I feel like we should find a way to persuade that Niemti is disrupting the project's productivity, morale, hell even making users lose their enjoyment of editing. If we do that it may help with this cause. GamerPro64 16:35, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

Yes, we must find a way to deal with this matter. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 16:48, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) As much as I don't approve of his behavior, and tire of always having to intervene in the trouble he's always creating, (my irritation being directed towards him, not the ones who ask me for help) it seems like when its presented to higher ups, like the Admin outside of WP:VG, they seem tolerant of his antics as long as his behavior continues to be more of the equivalent of "pushing, shoving, and grumbling" instead of full on "assaults and tirades" he did more when he was originally indef blocked. I'll likely support actions proposed to be taken against him, but I wouldn't be a "driving force" unless more serious infractions happens (like blockable ones). As is, I think discussions are going to just be the endless arguing circles of "Well I think he's bad enough to be banned from X", with the other half saying "Well I think not" that we had the last time he was taken to ANI. (which happened around the same time of the start of his RFC/U.) Sergecross73 msg me 16:39, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

Earlier, the earlier attempt to ban Niemti from the project was closed by Salvidrim after suggestions that it should be taken to AN or ANI and the proposal to community ban Niemti the first time on AN failed due to no consensus and was driven off topic. I feel that we should really build a thorough but not exhaustive compilation of really good evidence (such as the one on Jagged 85 which led to his ban) before we take this up to ANI with very clear cases for onlookers and we must provide a complete history on the user to make everyone more familiar of the situation and the RFC/U (as I feel that some of the users outside of WP:VG are unaware of the RfC). I am prepared to put a significant amount of my time into getting a proper resolution this time and I am thinking it would be useful to illustrate the prevalence of bad editing on those particular video game pages. Regardless of Niemti's motives, his antics are incredibly destructive to the project, and they must stop. In the words of actor Patrick Stewart, "The line must be drawn here, no further!" Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 16:45, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

• Salvidrim closed the discussion pending an AN thread (and its outcome, since the user may have been blocked/banned thus not requiring any project intervention). Where is this AN thread? If there is no AN thread, or if the discussion at AN is over, then I think we should re-open the case for a project ban. I think Salvidrim shouldn't have closed it in the first place, since the project could ban him regardless of any AN discussion or outcome. If someone wants to pull the evidence from the archive, we could re-open the discussion. --Odie5533 (talk) 17:03, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

  I don't know, mate, but there is no ANI thread, so I think we should re-open the project ban discussion now. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 17:04, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

  The AN(I) thread was never opened. Presumably Salvidrim got busy. Maybe it would be useful to create a subpage of the RFC/U to document the transgressions, or something to that effect. --Izno (talk) 17:08, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

  Good choice. I think we should create a subpage of the RFC/U about what is going on, using Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Jagged 85/Computer Games Evidence as a reference. However, I think we need multiple users to help build up solid evidence before taking this to ANI. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 17:13, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

  To Lord Sjones23, thank you for inviting me, and here is my own little piece of experience. I have stayed roughly on his civil side, but when working with him on this article, I did encounter his seeming tenancy to do lots of little edits and not take into account what the rest of the paragraph says, leading to occasional bad grammar and repetitive phrasing (read second paragraph. Also, I saw an example of his incivility with another editor (see edit description). I may not contribute to this discussion much, but I will keep my eye on it and if it comes to a ban, you have my support. In the words of that greatest Final Fantasy heroine "I'll never forget. [...] Come what may". --ProtoDrake (talk) 17:16, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

  I don't think it should be an RFC/U subpage. I think it should be posted right here, like it was before. --Odie5533 (talk) 18:21, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

  This, quite frankly, is not the appropriate venue. Discussions which lead to bans, blocks, et al. of (good faith and) somewhat long term contributors, are in WP:AN(I) space, WP:RFC/U space, or WP:ARBCOM space.... --Izno (talk) 19:14, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

  I would rather get a compilation of evidence on a RFC/U subpages, just to play safe and not cause too much drama. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 19:20, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

  He has had an RFCU. I think that ANI --> ArbCom is the way to go, sadly. I have tried to help him with good results sometimes, although I see that his way of refusing making the fixes we point to him at his nominations to be very troubling. — ΛΧΣ²¹ 19:29, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

  I know, but we don't want to cause unnecessary drama and start with something a good discussion before taking it to ANI if the complaints stand up to scrutiny. That's why I am thinking about proposing a creation of an RFC/U subpage similar to the one on Jagged 85. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 19:51, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

All right, I've boldly created an RFC/U subpage at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Niemti/Additional Evidence. Please add entries there. If it is the wrong place, it should be easy enough to simply transfer the evidence to a new page. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 22:26, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

The reason Salvidrim withdrew the previous discussion about banning Niemti from WP:VG project space is because doing so would be meaningless. Niemti doesn't even edit here, thus, banning him from here would not effect a change in his behavior. If you are proposing a ban from WP:VG, I suggest you reconsider. Axem Titanium (talk) 05:24, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

It is a ban on him from the project page, or from pages covered by the project? ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 05:29, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

I don't know for certain, but doing so may possibly be meaningless. Damn... For now, per the concerns over at the RFC subpage, we should remove his GANs immediately as they create a backlog here. I think that it should be a ban on him video game-related articles or even a site ban on ANI if possible after we gain enough evidence at my subpage. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 05:44, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

I'm guessing that what is meant by a "ban from the project", is a "topic ban from video game-related articles", and it should be worded as such. As SergeCross wrote above: an attempt at a full community ban was made at ANI some time ago, and despite almost universal support from video game editors (and I believe, majority support overall), the number of detractors from "outside of WP:VG" (as Serge put it) was sufficient that it was closed as "no consensus" (this despite the fact that his old, consensus-supported community ban was overturned by the unilateral actions of one admin, without consensus; hey, welcome to Wikipedia). That said, even among his supporters there was support for lesser sanctions (explicitly including a topic ban from video games and/or good articles) so perhaps that would have a better chance of success. bridies (talk) 12:25, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Bridies has a good point. A localized ban would be the best way of getting him out of our hair. It would be like an extension of his ban from Anita Sarkeesian-related articles. Yes, let's see if that can be done. --ProtoDrake (talk) 12:54, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Sounds good. We shall gather more evidence first to have good editors address the obstacles, and then, we should take it up to WP:AN. By the way, some of the users "outside of the RFC" are actually unaware of the problems, but we just want to make others more aware of the situation. I think lesser sanctions should do before we go for a full site ban. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 04:52, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

• I'm not going to wade further into this, as if by some horrible happenstance it ended up in front of ArbCom I'd have to recuse anyhow, but some advice: make a damn good case on the RfC as suggested above, and if you get a rough consensus on the RfC page take it to ANI with that in hand. Taking the time for formulate your evidence will save everyone more grief and back-and-forth. In terms of recent successes where good editors have addressed an obstacle, I'd take a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Paul_Bedson Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 13:19, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, everyone! It takes time to investigate, so the investigation will take up to a few weeks or so. If anyone wants to add further evidence, please do so at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Niemti/Additional Evidence. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 05:23, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Re: Wikipedia:Featured topics/Final Fantasy XII

Recently, I reviewed Fortress and passed it as a GA, which was once a part of this Good Topic, but that's beside the point. Even if Fortress was readded, wouldn't the topic also need to include Vaan and Balthier to satisfy WP:WIAFT criterion 1(d) for completeness? Should the topic be taken to WP:FTRC and discussed there?--十八 22:53, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

I guess the idea is that since Characters of Final Fantasy XII is in the topic, that Vaan and Balthier, as subarticles of that list, don't need to be directly included. --PresN 01:00, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

I don't think I'd agree when this project has two other FTs which include branch character articles in addition to a character list: Wikipedia:Featured topics/Castlevania: Aria of Sorrow and Wikipedia:Featured topics/Final Fantasy VIII. Both Vaan and Balthier were recreated after the the topic became a GT, and it was just never brought up until now it seems.--十八 05:25, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Request for comment about voice actors at Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance

I'd like to request anyone interested to participate in a dispute over the inclusion of voice actors at the above article. I included the actors in a similar way to Batman: Arkham City and other game articles in the style of "charactername (actor name)", only a handful of actors names, but a user repeatedly removes the content even when sourced, raising different excuses each time, and since I am on my 3rd revert and he is on his 4th, its clear he will not be stopping any time soon, and since the dispute includes only 2 editors, it requires additional voices to end it one way or another, as I feel he will just continue to edit war if the content is restored by myself. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 22:58, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Just Dance 4

I'm floating this by users here: Just Dance 4 has become a game guide, with its exhaustive list of songs. Should those be removed? Why, if we were to do so, would those list articles for Rock Band (video game) (List of songs in Rock Band) and other music video games not also be removed? I was going to be bold, but I figured, why not ask the project. In other words, how do these lists not fail WP:VGSCOPE #6? --Izno (talk) 00:28, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

• Everyone once in a while, in my experience, it's found that lists are acceptable if they're a core part of understanding the game. In my opinion, I think the songs/artists columns are appropriate, but all the columns, like "game mode" and "difficulty", are too detailed and should be remover per GAMECRUFT. Sergecross73 msg me 00:38, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Publisher of IGN?

Hey, when I'm citing sources from IGN, what should be listed as the "work" and what should be listed as the "publisher"? The way I approach this is that "IGN" (the website) is the "work", and that "IGN Entertainment" (the company) is the publisher. I got this from the copyright notice at the bottom of the website, which says "Copyright 1996-2013, IGN Entertainment, Inc.". Is this the correct way to cite IGN sources?--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 14:10, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

You could cite it that way. Most people in the project from what I've seen have largely ignored the work parameter in the case of IGN, except where it's, say, a blog on the website. It doesn't add any more information than you already had, which is the point of a citation. --Izno (talk) 14:26, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

The way I do it, which is how I was informed of doing it, is that the publisher is the owner, which in the case of IGN is J2 Global. --JDC808 ♫ 17:26, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

I've always ignored the work parameter for websites as a whole, so just |publisher=[[IGN]]. I only use work and publisher for offline sources. --PresN 17:42, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

FAC reviews generally want (at least that I've encountered) publisher and work, unless they're the same. --JDC808 ♫ 18:32, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

They've never bothered me about it on any of my FACs, so I guess we got different reviewers. --PresN 19:03, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

It won't matter for FAC etc, but in a lot of magazines they list the publisher by name (not company), not sure if its a UK only requirement, I'm fairly certain its a legal one. - X201 (talk) 12:40, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Generation XTH

I've been doing research into a Japanese video game series by a development team called Generation XTH under a company called Experience (neither of which seem to have a Wikipedia entry here, but I'll get to that later). I'm currently interested in writing an article for one of their games called Meikyuu Cross Blood Infinity, a PS Vita port of an earlier game called Meikyuu Cross Blood (the former is to be published by another company called Cyberfront). However, I can't understand from the Japanese Wiki articles as to what the name of the series actually is. Since MCBI has yet to be released, should I make an article for the series instead? If so, where can I find good sources? Alternatively, should I make an article for Experience/Generation XTH? Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 14:57, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

The article says that Generation XTH is a series of 3D dungeon RPGs, and that Experience, under the development team Team Muramasa, are the makers. Meikyuu Cross Blood is the fourth title in the series, which later had a sequel Meikyuu Cross Blood Reloaded and the PSV port.--十八 21:07, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

So is it safe to write an article for it? Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 21:32, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

I don't see why not. I guess it'd make more sense to write an article on Meikyuu Cross Blood instead of the Generation XTH series if the MCB games are what you're going to focus on.--十八 00:24, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Selection criteria for inclusion in List of Game of the Year awards

I've started trying to clean up this page and I'm trying to determine some sort of selection criteria for inclusion so we can establish what should/shouldn't make it into the page. If people could pop over to Talk:List of Game of the Year awards#Selection criteria and offer some thoughts it'd be much appreciated. Cheers, Cabe6403 ^{(Talk•Sign)} 10:09, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Batman: Arkham Asylum FAC

Now Arkham City is up to FAC I'd like to look at taking Asylum to the next level as well, but I don't have as much free time anymore with my job, is anyone willing to collaborate on this? Or just dig up some reliable sources for me to use in expanding it? It needs a little more work than I had assumed. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 20:44, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

WP:3O requested at Talk:Garrett (character)

Please see Talk:Garrett (character)#Archive links. Thanks. --Izno (talk) 14:21, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Hey look. Another Niemti related issue. Good to know we hit our quota so early in the week. GamerPro64 14:35, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Yup, yet another Niemti-related issue here. I've added this to the RfC subpage as well. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 14:52, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Why doesn't an admin just block him already? He's clearly detrimental to the encyclopedia. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 16:49, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

That's actually a good question. Can an admin give a reason why he hasn't been blocked? GamerPro64 16:54, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Because even though you're technically allowed to block someone for "gross incivility", most admins are leary of blocking anyone who's been here more than a few months for a subjective reason like Niemti's massive civility, "I didn't hear that" and "being a jerk" problems, rather than an objective problem like 3RR violations or edit warring. Ugh. I guess we don't have so many admins around here that I can just ignore it and hope it goes away- I'll try to work out some sort of official warning and criteria for blocking him. --PresN 18:26, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I can second much of what you're saying. Why he is extremely difficult to work worth, most of what he does falls just barely onto the side of "not-blockable". Sadly, as it is, "being a jerk" without dropping any direct personal attacks or profanity isn't quite blockable, and knowing his history, there would be endless drama if someone were to block him prematurely too. Additionally, many of the Admin, such as myself or Salvidrim, have had to deal with him so much in the past that it would be hard for us to block him due to the WP:INVOLVED clause of being an Admin. When he's been brought to ANI before, outside Admin seem willing to make little efforts, like narrow topic bans, but there doesn't seem to be consensus that there's enough to block/ban him. Sergecross73 msg me 18:53, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

I also support what both of you are saying as well. Some of the outside admins are not really aware of the RFC. Bad results will occur if we take Niemti to ANI prematurely or block him in a premature manner. That's why we are trying to formulate evidence at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Niemti/Additional Evidence. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 15:24, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Officially warned. We'll see how long before the first block comes. --PresN 18:50, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

I find it difficult to think of any upcoming block as "the first block".¹² :) ·Salvidrim!· ✉ 21:34, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Given his history, Niemti was blocked numerous times. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 21:39, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Also, it appears that Niemti is going around badmouthing me to regular, established editors here, here, here and here. He accused me of "lying", which is considered a clear violation of NPA. What a piece of work! Can we please do something about this? Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 16:21, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

You know. That could probably give you either a reason to start up a case against him... or may result in a ban from both of you talking to each other. GamerPro64 16:28, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

I've been trying to minimize contact with Niemti, but calling someone a liar is a personal attack and speculating on my motives based on personal opinions is not allowed. Also, it's only stalking if the edit's not done in good faith, but I am trying to maintain good faith. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 18:59, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

I've notified PresN about this here. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 21:00, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Look, I'm not going to say you're stalking him, and I really do appreciate that you keep us informed when there's a problem with him rather than letting it fester, but it's okay to back off now- I'm watching his contributions and I have the power to block him (which I just used), so I don't think it's necessary to post to WT:VG every time he does something. Just the RFC page is fine, if you really want to- it does make you come across as a little obsessive to post here each time there's a new development. --PresN 02:16, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

I understand your point now and apologize. The RFC subpage should be good enough for me. Thanks, Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 02:20, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

discussion to change what's in all the infoboxes

Template_talk:Infobox_video_game#discussion_about_new_changes One editor seems to have made changes without any discussion, and is now going around removing things from infoboxes. Please join the discussion there. Dream Focus 15:13, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

This was discussed for over a month on this very page. I think you'll agree that 23 people is too many for one infobox. Axem Titanium (talk) 15:19, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

I don't see why that would be too many. Its incomplete information to list some and not others, and no reason not to list exactly what their jobs were. You had four people participating in that discussion with you. Doesn't seem like a lot. I'm against the changes. Its useful for those who want to see who worked on what, easy to scan to what they are looking for in each section of the infobox, and not something you couldn't easily ignore if you didn't want to see it. I'd like others to state their opinions, get more input than just the handful of you that had a brief discussion last month. Dream Focus 15:35, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

You can't really cry foul, the discussion was on-going for weeks... Anyways, I'm all for trimming too, as PresN said in the past discussion, the infobox, much like the lead, is meant for summarizing key information, not presenting new info. As such, if it's really necessary to go into that sort of detail, it should be present in the prose, like in the Dev section or something. Sergecross73 msg me 15:40, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

WP:VG is the final authority on video game-related materials. Of the hundreds of editors who traffic this page, four of them hashed out a consensus on this issue and the rest gave their silent approval. I couldn't go to any higher authority. I even made a huge-ass section on it and added the RFC template, so you couldn't possibly have missed it if you cared at all. I'm all for giving credit where credit is due, but I think it's due in the development section, not clogging up the infobox. The infobox is for information at a glance, not "everything ever about the game". Axem Titanium (talk) 15:56, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Just to back up the "Silent Approval" part. I read the debate and was happy with the way it was going, if there had been anything I disagreed with I would have said so. - X201 (talk) 17:02, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia isn't a list of credits. We're not naming every single team member. I mean, "scenario writer", "world map director"? It's about as encyclopedic as naming all the programmers. Name the directors, done. - hahnchen 16:08, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

The scenario writer is far more important than the director. You could have a fold down thing closed by default, people clicking on it to see the valid information. If you like maps/levels/scenarios someone made on one game, be nice to see what else they did on other titles. Dream Focus 16:26, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

So, hide the important people in among the less-important people, and then hide the whole group as a default? Sounds worse than cluttering up the infobox to start with. If someone's work was important in a game, it should mention it in the dev section. If you want to know what else they did, it should be in their article. Scenario writer, btw, tends to be the one "writer" that gets put in an infobox if there's not a "lead writer" listed. --PresN 16:46, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

I'm of the opinion that credits for video games are nowhere near as important as they are for films (hence, for example, why we tend to not name VAs). It's the studios and developers that are the instrumental factors that most people consider. But that said, sources will call out people associated with games and give them credit (eg, Ken Levine with BioShock, Tim Schafer with Grim Fandango, etc.) When sources do this for us for the major positions (eg producer, developer, writer, etc.), then their inclusion within the box makes sense, as we will also likely talk about their participation in the body of the article too. But if its just going to the manual or credits to fill in the space, it's wasting time. --MASEM (t) 18:11, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Indeed, we don't name the majority of people in a film either, not even every actor, just major roles and creators. In other fields too...members of an orchestra or big band (usually) aren't all individually named, but leaders and prominent individuals within them are. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 19:36, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Yes, my other main area of my contributions is with music albums, and usually the only people mentioned are the band members and a handful of other key staff, typically like a producer or sound mixer, not everyone in the liner notes and production studio... Sergecross73 msg me 20:20, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Well I'm thinking, in films and albums, tv shows, etc, filling in of these top fields is a regular thing - if the data is known, its entered, no questions asked. But in these fields, we're talking that most of these people are known for doing that job - eg, the sound producer for an album can be just as important as the artist themselves and can make or break that. Thus it makes sense to list them. In the world of VG development, even the top position - the executive director or producer of the game - making all the fundamental designs about the game's design - is often a position without significant praise, because at the end of the day, for most mainstream AAA games, its the studio, not the specific personal, that make or break things. Hence why I don't think when it comes to the creative direction on a game that we should list even the highest positions, unless their involvement has been called out elsewhere, at which point that tells us the media considers this person at this point as a major factor influencing the game. --MASEM (t) 20:26, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Its good to have basic development team should be allowed while all the details be listed in the development section.Lucia Black (talk) 20:51, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Sourcing of digital game manuals

I don't know if all games are doing this now, but it seems as if game's are moving towards having digital versions of the instruction manual as opposed to physical versions (PlayStation All-Stars and God of War: Ascension for example). Game manuals are often used as a source for the gameplay sections of these articles. How should we go about sourcing a digital version of the manual? The same way as the physical version? Is there a ref template for sourcing digital books? --JDC808 ♫ 22:13, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

I would agree to source it just like a regular printed manual, you'll just have to use a "format" parameter (that most the cite templates have) to indicate its digital nature. You can still reference page numbers (at least, if its like a PDF , you can). It might also be the case with these brief digital manuals they may be online as well, so you can provide the URL too. Maybe. --MASEM (t) 15:55, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

As Masem says, a lot of it depends on the kind of manual, but {{cite book}} or {{cite web}} should work for your uses; both have page parameters, url fields, etc. I would definitely try and archive the webpage either way, because the downside of an electronic manual is obviously its transience compared to a printed manual that will still be found in game shops years from now. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 20:07, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Okay, thanks. --JDC808 ♫ 22:49, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Putting an archive link in would be a very good idea too. In preparation for the day they take them offline, or re-organise the file path. - X201 (talk) 08:51, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Flashback Origins screenshot

You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Flashback (video game)#Flashback Origins. -- Trevj (talk) 14:36, 15 March 2013 (UTC)Template:Z48

Jeez Laweez, and it looks like Niemti's involved. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 20:01, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Well, beyond reverting once without an edit summary, he didn't really do anything wrong this time... Sergecross73 msg me 20:10, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Nope, he sure didn't. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 20:13, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Halo featured topic delisted!

Hello everyone. I just want to make an important announcement: the Halo featured topic has been delisted. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 23:03, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

infobox

Why isn't the "version" number appearing in the infobox? For example, God of War: Ascension. I have it formatted correctly (at least I'm pretty sure I do), but I don't know why it's not appearing. There's another article I edit and it appears just fine. --JDC808 ♫ 06:24, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

It only appears fine in that other article because your browser has the page cached: the version field was removed on February 25, as per Template talk:Infobox video game#Proposal for removal of Version field. --PresN 06:42, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Ah, okay. --JDC808 ♫ 07:33, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Separate wiki for gaming guide content

Since Wikipedia doesn't allow gaming guide, would it be okay to move the gaming guide content from the old Wikipedia 2004-2007 revisions to my wiki, Video Games Wiki (a wiki supposed to be like Wikipedia, but focused upon video games). Link: http://videogames.shoutwiki.com. I'd be happy to have a reply if I can merge gaming guide content to my video games wiki from here. Thanks. Gaz and Gaming Fan (talk) 22:46, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

All wikipedia content is under GDFL/CC-BY licenses, thus allowing you to do just that. You'll need to provide appropriate documentation for attribution (page history) but you can see how to do that at Help:Transwiki. --MASEM (t) 00:32, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Could you please help me out with this project of mine? Gaz and Gaming Fan (talk) 00:37, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

If anyone can help out on this project, I'd much appreciate the help. Gaz and Gaming Fan (talk) 01:00, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Nomination of Oton for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Oton is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Oton until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article.

GAN discussion

After Futuretrillionaire quick-failed Jill Valentine due to sourcing concerns as explained at RSN, a discussion about GANs has started over at WT:GAN#Problem: reviewers often not knowing/understanding policies/guildelines, and/or choosing to "ignore" them. Your comments would be appreciated there. Thanks, Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 17:07, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Note that one of the primary motivators of the discussion, Niemti, has been blocked for 2 weeks, so the discussion may not be as fruitful as otherwise. --PresN 02:10, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

3O at Template talk:Ghost in the Shell

I would like to request a third opinion at Template talk:Ghost in the Shell#Heading "redundant". For context, see my preferred version of the template and Ryulong/Lucia Black's preferred version. Thanks. --Izno (talk) 22:26, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Usually, WP:3O is the venue for these requests, not a vaguely related wikiproject's talk page.—Ryulong (琉竜) 06:20, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Also a third opinion must only be sought when there are only two people arguing over something. You, Izno, are arguing with at least 3 other people on this issue.—Ryulong (琉竜) 07:18, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

See my reply at WT:WikiProject Anime and manga#3O at Template talk:Ghost in the Shell. --Izno (talk) 14:59, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure "third opinion" is a general phrase referring to any outside opinion, not specifically the "third person's opinion". Axem Titanium (talk) 15:58, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

No, WP:3O is directly referencing an actual third person not outside opinion in general. WP:3O specifically mentions that it is not appropriate if more than two people are involved. There are other avenues to explore but WP:3O is not one of them in this case.--64.229.164.74 (talk) 22:19, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Fair enough, I guess the Wikipedia definition is more strict than common parlance. On the other hand, it looks like more than one person can provide a third opinion, under Wikipedia rules. Are these all still called "third opinions"? :P Axem Titanium (talk) 14:19, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Update on 1up, Gamespy, UGO shutting down?

We heard about this in February. Anomie has a list of all 1up, Gamespy, and UGO links currently on Wikipedia. What's the status on archiving these links? Is there a bot that can automate that for us? What are some action items we can do to get this sorted out, preferably sooner before the actual shutdown? Axem Titanium (talk) 17:02, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Tossed a request at WP:BOTR. Feel free to add on. --MASEM (t) 17:22, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Masem. Looks like the ball is rolling now. Axem Titanium (talk) 14:16, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Video game guides wiki

I'm just leaving this message here for anyone who might be interested. A new non-WMF wiki called Wikilevels has been started by some Wikipedia (and Wikimedia) users, as a wiki focused on video game guides. Given that this is the Wikiproject for Video games, and given that I'm part of it and I find myself interested in that proposal, I assume that leaving this note here will let other possibly-interested users aware of this. Regards. — ṞṈ 19:27, 19 March 2013 (UTC)