Talk:Michelle Shocked

Old comments

From: Oliver Keyes, Wikipedia editor The changes you made turned the article into an advertisement-laden puff piece. Wikipedia is a neutral encyclopaedia, not a place to advertise. Please explain how we're meant to be a neutral, non-point-of-view source if we allow people to write articles about themselves? Yours sincerely, Oliver Keyes

From: Mighty Sound The sources that were used to obtain the information in my previous biography were obtained from journalistic puff pieces. I know, because I read the profiles when they were published and with the exception of the New York Times and New Yorker magazine, not once was an effort made to do any follow up fact checking. I have been dismayed over the years to discover what an ill-trained, tin-earred lot most professional journalists (and now, bloggers) are. If you would care to point out factual errors provided I would be most happy to refute or confirm your opinion. My effort was not to advertise. Many lazy journalists use Wikipedia to create thumbnail bios on me for their editors, much like lazy students use Wikipedia to create essays for their English teachers. The previous factoids provided by Wikipedia are true, but don't even come close to the truth. I am best positioned to understand how the information provided on Wikipedia is used in the real world. If you are serious about providing a quality, neutral point of view I don't understand how you think you will achieve it with the sources you have obtained and the editorial approach used. Thank you for your attention to this matter. Also, please advise if you need me to send a copy of my birth certificate confirming the facts of my birth.

This is the complete text of the ACCURATE biography for Michelle Shocked: Michelle Shocked Michelle Shocked is a traveller, a troubadour, a “picker-poet,” as they say in Texas. As a young feminist, she left Texas to travel, Kerouac-style, and was caught up in Reagan-era grassroots politics. Her musical career was ignited by a bootleg recording made around a Kerrville Folk Festival campfire on a Sony Walkman. Released in England as ‘The Texas Campfire Tapes’ without Shocked’s authority, its success abroad enticed Mercury Records to offer the newcomer a recording contract. She declares herself “the most sophisticated hillbilly you’ll ever meet.”

History Shocked was born in Dallas, Texas on February 24, 1962. Her father, William, 20 and her mother, Karen, 18 were briefly married but divorced when Shocked was 3. In 1965, her mother remarried Marion, a U.S. Army staff sargeant, and Shocked and a younger brother were adopted by her second husband. They were raised, along with four other siblings, in a strict Mormon household on army bases including Ft. Devens, Massachusetts, Augsburg, Germany and Ft. Meade, Maryland. When she was 12, three additional siblings left foster care to join the family. Shocked was 14 when her stepfather retired from active military duty and the family relocated to Kelsey, a small community in Upshur County, 7 miles outside Gilmer, Texas. She ran away from home at 16, but continued attending Gilmer High School and graduated in 1979. She worked her way through college and received a Bachelor of Science degree in Speech Communication in Oral Interpretation of Literature from the University of Texas at Austin in 1983.

"Michelle Shocked" is the nom de guerre given at her arrest in a political protest called "The War Chest Tour" during the 1984 Democratic National Convention in San Francisco, California. The demonstration challenged the practice of U.S. corporations receiving lucrative military contracts from the U.S. government while giving generous campaign contributions to both political parties, thus benefiting from political favors regardless of election results. "Michelle Shocked" was intended to invoke the specter of "shell shock" as a result of Reagan's Cold War policies. The front cover of one of her best-known albums, Short Sharp Shocked, shows her restrained in the chokehold by a San Francisco policeman in a front-page photograph published by the San Francisco Examiner the day following the arrest.

Shocked received her first international exposure in Europe, particularly Britain, with her debut album The Texas Campfire Tapes. The album was originally a field recording recorded directly onto a Sony Walkman at the Kerrville Folk Festival by Pete Lawrence, who represented himself as a journalist for the UK publication Folk Roots, and was released on his label, Cooking Vinyl, in 1986. His label partner, Martin Goldschmidt, became Shocked's personal manager, booking agent, and business manager.

Her break into U.S. national renown came with the 1988 release of her studio album Short Sharp Shocked on college radio rotations around the country, which was met with strong acclaim from listeners. On the crest of this independent momentum, her 1989 album Captain Swing on Mercury Records was accompanied by a strong marketing campaign, including a heavy-rotation MTV video of the single "On the Greener Side." However, following the release of 1992's Arkansas Traveler, the label did not invest in further promotion, stating that she had "cut too good a deal" for herself. From 1993-1995 she languished in creative limbo, with three separate recording proposals (including a gospel album concept) all rejected by Mercury. She was not allowed to record but she was not allowed to leave, and the label refused to honor their commitment to a recording advance. In 1996 she extricated herself from the deal, citing a violation of her 13th Amendment constitutional right prohibiting slavery, and settled out of court the day before the case was to go to trial.

In 1993 she recorded an underground version of Kind Hearted Woman (white cover), a limited edition sold only at concerts. In 1994, she contributed a cover of the Victoria Williams song "Holy Spirit" to the Sweet Relief benefit project. In 1995, she contributed an original song "Quality of Mercy" to the soundtrack for the film Dead Man Walking. In 1996 she released a studio version of Kind Hearted Woman (black cover) on the short-lived Private Music label and also authorized the release Mercury Poise, an anthology of her Mercury recordings. In 2002, with the release of Deep Natural, Shocked established her own independent label, Mighty Sound, (distributed by Megaforce/MRI via RED/Sony Distribution). She reissued expanded versions of her entire catalog, possible by her having retained complete ownership of her recorded masters and publishing copyrights when she signed with Mercury in 1987 due to a reversion clause in the contract.

Shocked continues to tour and record as an independent artist. Her song "How You Play the Game" was featured as the opening and credits soundtrack in the DVD of the 2004 documentary film Bush's Brain. In June 2005 she release a trilogy of albums called Threesome (Don't Ask Don't Tell, Mexican Standoff and Got No Strings.) In September 2007 she released a live gospel album recorded at the Telluride Bluegrass Festival called ToHeavenURide. In 2008, her song "When I Grow Up" was featured in an ad for Kaiser Permanente. Her latest album, Soul of My Soul, was release in May 2009 on Mighty Sound. She is currently collaborating with fine artist David Willardson on a unique project called Indelible Women which features Willardson's iconic portrait paintings and Shocked's compositions in a doo-wop style. In 2010 she launched a 5-year touring project called Roadworks and visits 75 cities annually. The theme of 2010 Roadworks is American Idle, putting a human face to abstract unemployment statistics and highlighting the consequences of unregulated corporate recklessness.

Personal life Shocked married journalist Bart Bull in July 1992. They were married in Los Angeles and moved to New Orleans in 1994. Returning to Los Angeles in 1999, they separated in November 2002 and were divorced in 2004. Her half brother is musician Max Johnston. Shocked has eschewed Mormonism since 1980, but since December 1992 has been a born-again fundamentalist evangelical Christian at the predominantly African-American congregation of West Angeles Church of God in Christ, Charles E. Blake, pastor.

Discography Albums Selected recordings: The Texas Campfire Tapes (1986) Short Sharp Shocked (1988) #73 US, #33 UK Captain Swing (1989) #95 US, #31 UK Arkansas Traveler (1992) #46 UK Kind Hearted Woman (1994, with label release (on Private Music) in 1996) Artists Make Lousy Slaves (with Fiachna O'Braonain, 1996) sold only at performances, now issued as CDRs and MP3s at michelleshocked.com Good News (1998) sold only at performances, now issued as CDRs and MP3s at michelleshocked.com Deep Natural (2001) Dub Natural (2001) sold only at performances, later issued as a bonus disc with "Deep Natural" These three are included on a triple album packaged as "Threesome.": Don't Ask Don't Tell (2005) Mexican Standoff (2005) Got No Strings (2005) ToHeavenURide (2007) Live Gospel cd Soul of My Soul (2009)

Re-releases Mighty Sound re-released two-CD versions of her Mercury releases - The Texas Campfire Takes (April 22, 2003), Short Sharp Shocked (September 23, 2003), Captain Swing (March 16, 2004) and Arkansas Traveler (September 14, 2004). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mightysound (talk • contribs) 17:54, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

I have deleted a section of text copied verbatim from [1]. Text cannot be copied in this way from other web sites unless the author who wrote it provides permission to do so (for example, on this talk page) or puts a public domain disclaimer on the web page. The text can be put back if it is re-written and I recommend that it be put into a separate article on the album. RedWolf 23:24, May 22, 2004 (UTC)

I've removed the latter day saints category. There's no context, no attribution, it seems random and out of place.

She was raised LDS but is not now, so she doesn't belong in the category. Google finds much info, such as this interview excerpt. Not sure it's worth mentioning in the article. --Darksasami 07:54, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Ok, that does ring a bell. I think the footer link only should be included again if there's some context, and I don't think it can be put in randomly ("she was raised a Mormon") without explaining the significance. While that is a good link, I'm hesitant to include that material based on a single interview.

Short Sharp Shocked cover

The article currently states, "The front cover of her (arguably) best-known album, Short Sharp Shocked, shows her restrained by the chokehold of a San Francisco policeman in a supposedly authentic photograph of this incident. However, some indie music critics of the time observed that the style of this image showed a strong similarity to a photo that appeared on an album cover from British punk band Chaos U.K. This led some to assert that she plagiarized the concept, but the accusation was never answered nor seriously pursued."

The booklet included in the 2003 Mighty Sound re-issue of Short Sharp Shocked discusses the cover in more detail. The incident depicted in the photograph was authentic. However, Mercury Records altered the photograph to make the policeman less identifiable. (The unaltered photograph is included in the re-issue. (Could someone who has a copy of the reissue nearby verify the details and update the article?) --Heath 68.191.7.126 11:49, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I always thought the photo was supposed to be her as Michael Stewart, the graffiti artist who dies in "Graffiti Limbo".

Acting?

She's in an episode of Season 1 of Dharma and Greg. I have no idea if this is noteworthy enough to put into the entry, but she acted (well, sung, but in a manner that was functionally dialog). Dick Clark was also in the episode. I fear it may be too trivial, but it is interesting to me that she acted in a network sitcom. (My perception of "appropriate" is skewed, being an editor of another wiki with different community standards, so I'll toss this out for an experienced Wikipedian to make a judgment call on -- feel free to delete this). 68.63.165.28 20:09, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I think this is an interesting tidbit, but I don't know where to put it. Maybe a "trivia" section, like they have at imdb.com?Star-lists (talk) 17:27, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level. BetacommandBot 23:54, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Shocked LGBT

Could we please get a quote of her discussing her sexuality openly? Otherwise is is not important and she shouldn't be in the LGBT cat. "She has been called..." really isn't very encyclopedic. She has also been called "straight" and has really be married. --Knulclunk (talk) 04:13, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

She acknowledged having had at least one same sex relationship in a press interview in 1990 but, given her conversion to born again Christianity, is unsurprisingly rather defensive on the issue now. Here's the original interview: http://www.dallasvoice.com/michelle-shocked-said-what-1990-outlines-interview-surfaces-10434.html Vauxhall1964 (talk) 15:19, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Sentence deleted

I removed a sentence on her personal life. It struck me as unnecessarily invasive. It was also unsourced and potentially libellous. If we are going to publicize the intimate details of someone's life, we should (a) have a reliable source to cite for it and, more importantly, (b) have a compelling reason why the public has the right to know about what might be an intensely painful topic for the subject of the article. Just because a person is a 'public figure' doesn't mean we have a right to publish their secrets. I don't care what a court of law would call libelous or not. There's a standard that's far more important: human decency.Star-lists (talk) 17:36, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Contentious material, bio editing, etc.

I've made some small edits to removed personal information that was not cited, and that the subject of the article (apparently editing as Mightysound (talk · contribs)) has expressed some concerns with. Notable change is the lead - there was a lot of fluff there, and the subject appears to feel the birth name listed there was incorrect, so I've yanked it until cited. Most of the article remains uncited and needs work to be up to quality. I'd encourage editors to work on finding good source material to flesh things out from here. Tony Fox (arf!) 18:40, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for the Solomonic, if somewhat severe, effort at resolving this editing conflict. The result is acceptable.

Mightysound (talk) 16:52, 8 July 2010 (UTC)Mighty Sound

I"m sure as editors have the time to research and find proper sources, the article will expand with cited information from where it is now. For the moment, since it's a living persons bio, it's best to have unsourced personal information out than in. Tony Fox (arf!) 20:17, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Stub

As of April 1, 2011, this article is a stub or at least stub like. It appears that some relevant and valuable material has been removed. I am not an expert on Michelle Shocked (which is why I read the article) so I don't know anything about the veracity of the various claims and counterclaims in this "talk" article, but I sure hope somebody with the appropriate expertise cleans things up and fills out the article accordingly. Dagme (talk) 16:56, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Protection

Suggested minor protection on this page until her statements at her San Francisco show that made the news today are clarified/agreed upon... Everything I've read says "allegedly" and I came here to this page to read more about the incident and see it hasn't been added yet... I'm certain it will be flooded soon. 12.162.122.5 (talk) 22:11, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

I agreed to semi-protection for one day, based on what happened as noted in this blog. Bearian (talk) 22:49, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Well, I don't think there's much to clarify. A simple search of the web will show that her bigoted comments were as reported. Her shows are being cancelled by venues, and Shocked is commenting on Twitter that her so-called "truth" is leading to controversy:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/chi-michelle-shocked-evanston-20130318,0,7598900.story — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.81.230.253 (talk) 23:35, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

8 of the remaining 11 concert dates on her U.S. tour have now been cancelled. http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022533075 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.30.70.13 (talk) 08:05, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Her comments are no longer "alleged"; a recording of the entire second set of the Yoshi's concert (apparently made through the venue's sound system) was uploaded to soundcloud.com on March 20. I have added this information to the article, including a citation of the uploaded recording, as well as quotations from her remarks. AviJacobson (talk) 07:09, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 18 March 2013

The following text was introduced some time back by user Mschocked along with a number of other non-factual claims. Most of the others were corrected, but somehow this was left in place, although it was challenged at the time:

In 1984, Michelle adopted the nom de guerre "Michelle Shocked", often misquoted as "Miss Shell Shocked" or "Me-Shell-Shocked" as in the misquote in Green Left Weekly:

Suggested replacement:

In 1984, Michelle adopted the alias "Michelle Shocked", a deliberate play on the phrase "Miss Shell Shocked" as she explained in an interview in Green Left Weekly:

(i.e. it can hardly be a "misquote" when the cited source is Shocked herself -- unless editor Mschocked is claiming that Green Left Weekly misquoted her, in which case he should provide a citation showing such.)

Czetie (talk) 22:48, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Since I "semi-protected" the article, I don't think I should rule on any requests to edit. Bearian (talk) 22:53, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Page is not protected now. I suggest the OP be bold and follow WP:BRD. RudolfRed (talk) 04:32, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Dallas Voice reference

The Dallas Voice interview was online earlier today, but now it's dead. Hopefully it'll be back up again soon, but in the meantime I'm used a secondary reference from the Box Turtle Bulletin that quotes the interview. This should be updated to the original article once it's back online. The link to the artcle (presently dead) is here: http://www.dallasvoice.com/artman/publish/article_8677.php

Distingué Traces (talk) 03:00, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

The Wayback Machine is a good resource for dead links. Here's the above article as archived there: "Michelle Shocked believes being gay is a sin" (April 17, 2008, Dallas Voice).

Edit request on 19 March 2013

Current text:

• On March 17, 2013, Shocked spoke out against gays during a concert at Yoshi's nightclub in San Francisco, which led to the audience leaving in protest and club management ending the show.

Suggested replacement:

• On March 17, 2013, Shocked spoke out against gay marriage during a concert at Yoshi's nightclub in San Francisco, which led to members of the audience leaving in protest and club management ending the show.

Let's follow the BLP rules.... she was quoted as opposing gay marriage and then she threw out a widely quoted sardonic remark about twitter. As per BLP rules we should stick with her opposition to gay marriage and hold off on going full-bigot until it's confirmed. Her history suggests a complex artist/person who has no opposition to homosexuality - her comments regarding marriage politics and the rights of religious orders to follow their own faiths notwithstanding. BLP demands we hue strictly to our sources which show she is pro-gay with an opposition to imposing gay marriage requirements on those of different religious faiths. She will speak again and we will be more certain soon, that much is sure - but until then strict BLP demands narrow and focused prose.12.144.158.18 (talk) 14:36, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Reliable, mainstream sources on that paragraph describe Shocked's comments as a "gay slur" and an "anti-gay rant". Therefore, I am not comfortable narrowing the scope of that sentence to labeling her comments as being anti-gay marriage. "Spoke out against gays" might be too strong a wording, but I do think that limiting the scope to gay marriage is a worse characterization. I will leave this edit request open for another 24 hours to see if others agree. —KuyaBriBri

Talk 15:03, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

If it "might be" too strong a wording, then per WP:BLP - it is too strong a wording. Time will fill in the blanks and resolve doubt, our job is to get it right and adhere strictly to BLP. 99.18.140.172 (talk) 19:25, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

The parting shot about "fags" was probably meant ironically, but the rest of the rant in the second half of the show was widely reported as being anti-gay, not solely anti-same-sex-marriage. Certainly it was a rant against those who oppose California Proposition 8, but there was more homophobic sentiment underneath, as far as I can tell from various audience reports. Binksternet (talk) 15:20, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

I agree that the scope of her comments seem to be in regard to gay marriage. The subsequent "God hates fags" statement was very likely meant ironically - it fits how I have perceived her sense of humor over the years. I don't think we should use "mainstream" media sources as the standard.174.25.64.198 (talk) 15:28, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

I've added another change in the edit request, I clarified that it was "members of the audience" who left, not the audience. 99.18.140.172 (talk) 17:20, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

The page is not protected now. If there is consensus, any editor may make the change. RudolfRed (talk) 04:34, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Twitter

I am confused as to why my addition of a link to her verified Twitter account was undone. Most biographical articles link to the subject's Twitter in the external links section. Why should this be different? Fnordware (talk) 20:37, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

For one, it's a WP:PRIMARY source. Wikipedia prefers secondary sources, especially for controversial things such as this, and especially for biographies of living persons. See WP:BLP. Cheers - Binksternet (talk) 21:30, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

WP:SELFPUB provides guidelines for such sources. I think her Twitter account meets the criteria, as do other Twitter links in other articles. Someone with a particularly self-serving Twitter would be disqualified according to the criteria, but hers does not appear to be such. In this case, I think providing the Twitter link actually makes the article more neutral, as it gives a chance for her to explain herself. It's still not clear if she had some sort of psychotic episode, was just being provocative, or what. Fnordware (talk) 21:43, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Hi, it was me that removed the Twitter addition. WP:LINKSTOAVOID says: "Links normally to be avoided - 10. Social networking sites (such as Myspace and Facebook), chat or discussion forums/groups (such as Yahoo! Groups), Twitter feeds, Usenet newsgroups or e-mail lists.".

WP:LINKSTOAVOID also states "Minimize the number of links - Normally, only one official link is included. If the subject of the article has more than one official website, then more than one link may be appropriate, under a very few limited circumstances.[8] However, Wikipedia does not provide a comprehensive web directory to every official website. Wikipedia does not attempt to document or provide links to every part of the subject's web presence or provide readers with a handy list of all social networking sites. Complete directories lead to clutter and to placing undue emphasis on what the subject says.

More than one official link should be provided only when the additional links provide the reader with significant unique content and are not prominently linked from other official websites. For example, if the main page of the official website for an author contains a link to the author's blog and Twitter feed, then it is not appropriate to provide links to all three. Instead, provide only the main page of the official website in this situation. In other situations, it may sometimes be appropriate to provide more than one link, such as when a business has one website for the corporate headquarters and another for consumer information. Choose the minimum number of links that provide readers with the maximum amount of information. Links that provide consistent information are strongly preferred to social networking and communication services where the content changes rapidly and may not comply with this guideline at any given moment in time. Wikipedia does not exist to facilitate corporate "communication strategies" or other forms of marketing." Lopifalko (talk) 21:48, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

You ignored the very first sentence of that section: "Except for a link to an official page of the article's subject". But I had not seen the part about just one official link. And her official website does link to her Twitter. OK, you win. Fnordware (talk) 22:05, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Category LGBT musicians?

Should this article be categorized as being about an LGBT person? Various reference books say she is bisexual, which is the 'B' in LGBT. Her own words have been interpreted as meaning that she was bisexual, such as "I would like a much broader definition for myself" [rather than straight or lesbian]. I know that LGBT categorization can get controversial, but in this case there are high quality sources such as The Gay 100 book, Larry Gross's Up from Invisibility: Lesbians, Gay Men, and the Media in America, and Martha Mockus's entry on Women's Music in the reference Lesbian Histories and Cultures: An Encyclopedia. Binksternet (talk) 04:12, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Given that the subject apparently would not like to be described as LGBT, I think the category should be left off in compliance with BLP. Yes, there are sources saying she is gay, but others quoting her saying she's not. Can't really capture the nuances in a simple category unless there's a category for "Formerly LGBT musicians who now deny LGBT status," which would be a more neutral description of the situation. Fnordware (talk) 19:47, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Can you point to a denial of being bisexual? Binksternet (talk) 20:16, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

She now denies that she ever identified herself as a lesbian, as is mentioned in this article. It says, "...she was even identified as lesbian herself for much of her career (falsely, she's repeatedly said)." Yeah, I know lesbian and bisexual aren't the same. She has made oblique references to possibly being LGBT, but then directly said the whole "God hates fags" thing. The article describes her ambiguous status, while adding the LGBT category appears to be unambiguous. The BLP says we act conservatively on issues like this. I think only living musicians who openly announce their LGBT status should be assigned that category. Fnordware (talk) 21:25, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

She did not say that she thinks God hates fags. The statement was put out as being an absurd position, according to Shocked. It was variously reported as "You can go on Twitter and say 'Michelle Shocked says God hates fags'", "You will probably leave here tonight and say 'Michelle Shocked says God hates fags'", or "God hates fags and you can tweet that I said so."

Even if she really meant that God hates fags it is not a denial of being bisexual. In the past she has identified herself as being bisexual, and in the last 20 years she has not said, as far as I know, that she is not bisexual. Regardless of what has been recently reported as her homophobia, the last, best word we have on her sexuality is that she is bisexual. Even her statements following the Yoshi's gig have not denied being bisexual. Binksternet (talk) 22:37, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

I'm with Fnordware. WP:BLPCAT applies here. In case of any doubt we err on the side of not including it. Find recent reliable sources that the subject self-identifies like this and I may change my mind. --John (talk) 23:14, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Prop 8

Shouldn't her comment at Yoshi's be that she "spoke out FOR Proposition 8" as opposed to "spoke out against Proposition 8?" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.101.218.42 (talk) 14:46, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Yes, she was in favor of Prop 8. Binksternet (talk) 16:26, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

The first comment here was me... sorry... I was at home and couldn't find my log-in.

albabe - The Writer/Artist Formally Known as Al Gordon 21:03, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Lets try to be careful how we handle this latest issue with the figure. We are not here to either protect the figure or slam them. Stay disinterested and please don't edit as a pre-empted strike to head off others. Stick to the facts, and summarize what the reliable sources say and lets not give undue weight to this.--Amadscientist (talk) 01:22, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

Uhm...just because the San Francisco Chronicle, and New York times have articles on this issue does not mean we write "The San Francisco Chronicle, and New York times have reported..." If a source is found that actually states this then we can use it, otherwise it is clear OR.--Amadscientist (talk) 02:07, 21 March 2013 (UTC)