Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Archive 78

Archive 75

Archive 76

Archive 77

Archive 78

Archive 79

Archive 80

→

Archive 85

Extremely small squads

Is there any merit to edits like this? Does it add anything to a club's article to list the name of one player on the current squad........? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:15, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

No.--EchetusXe 19:22, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

It should be removed first-and-foremost because it's unreferenced; and secondly because it's ridiculous. One player is not a "current squad." GiantSnowman 10:19, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

I think one-player squad lists are silly, but where it is incomplete there is the {{listdev}} template. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 12:33, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

F.C. Porto in international club football (FAC)

Dear project members, I've come to ask for your contribution in this FAC nomination. So far, it has been reviewed by two editors, so I would very much appreciate feedback from this project. Regards. Parutakupiu (talk) 16:11, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

Flags again

Per this recent discussion here, I wonder if anyone supports the use of flags for managers and players (e.g. captains in the table) at 2012–13 Premier League and similar. In their roles as Premier League (or any club league) players, their status as being nationally aligned to one country or another is not important. Accordingly, one point of view may be that such flags should be removed from articles. Thoughts? Thanks, C679 09:10, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

They should be removed with prejudice. Club captains are not representing their national sides in the Premier League, and that goes doubly for managers. Whether you'll get away with it is another matter. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 09:02, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

Results that clinched the title/promotion

Recently I have been removing a lot of instances of "on April 20 Foo Rovers gained promotion following a 2-2 draw with Foo United", but other editors, usually IPs, keep adding them back in. My reasoning is that promotion is based on a whole season's worth of results, not the outcome of one particular game, and describing the game which clinched promotion in that way (especially when it is the only thing said about the whole season, which it is in some cases) could give non-experts the impression that clubs can be promoted based only on the result of one match. I note that no article ever lists a specific result that clinched promotion for anyone in the pre-internet era. Thoughts......? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 17:05, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

This isn't just an Internet-based phenomenon: this is just one example. Malpass⁹₃! (what I've been ^up to/_drop me a ^___) 17:23, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

I realise that the press have always reported this sort of thing. What I meant by my earlier comment was that you don't see articles on Wikipedia that say things like "in 1953 the team were promoted following a 0-0 draw with Burnley". That information is extremely hard to find for pre-internet seasons, therefore it's recentist and undue weight to report it for more recent seasons...... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 19:36, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

I disagree (but then I would say that). It is mostly a matter of context and how it is worded. Obviously, hasty day of promotion additions in breathless detail are often inappropriate. But I see nothing wrong with something along the lines of "Foo Rovers secured automatic promotion on the final day of the season, after a 2–2 draw with Foo United." Oldelpaso (talk) 20:02, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

And Foo Rover's second half performance was so nervous that it nearly read, "on April 20 Foo Rovers gained promotion following a 2-3 defeat by Foo United, as Foo Vale also failed to win." Kevin McE (talk) 00:35, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

I concur that highly dramatic/well remembered finishes like last season's Premier League or Carlisle's Jimmy Glass incident should definitely be mentioned, but is it really necessary to mention that Cardiff's promotion was confirmed by a 0-0 draw with Charlton three games from the end of the season? In 20 years' time will anyone remember/care......? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:11, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

The simple answer here is that the vast majority of anonymous help we get in this way is from fanboys, and there is no point fighting it as it happens. Let it lie until next season and then clean it up, once they've moved on to glorifying the following campaign. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 09:00, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

Just to add my thoughts... Although the season needs to be considered as a whole one must also consider the chronological happenings in the season. Instances such as promotion, qualification for other competitions (ECL, Europa etc) are all viable the whole article as the season progress. Of course if it isn't provided with references then the entry is highly questionable and grounds for deletion. Brudder Andrusha (talk) 17:26, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Importance of La Liga

So, the Premiere League championship is listed at Wikipedia:In the news/Recurring items meaning that assuming the corresponding article has been updated, the winner of the Premiere League should be listed at ITN every year. Perhaps my experience with football has been different from reality, but it has always seemed to me like La Liga was a more major league from a global perspective or at least on equal grounds with the Premiere League. With that in mind, I was surprised that the Premiere League was listed at ITN/R while La Liga wasn't. I considered starting a discussion about adding La Liga, but I thought I'd come here and ask some people who know far more than me about the importance of La Liga and whether or not it would be worth starting discussion, because I certainly wouldn't be able to make a compelling argument for adding it. Ryan Vesey 03:03, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

As the lead of the article in question states, the Premier League is the most-watched football league in the world. It's certainly worth considering the addition of La Liga. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 09:01, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

We have always been at war with Eastasia

Mario Götze will be joining Bayern in the summer, so there'll be a lot of people trying to change his official club between now and the transfer window. I think this is fine after the active season is over for both clubs' competitions, although others disagree. I can even sort of understand people making that edit now, maddening and stupid as it is, given he has 6-7 games still to play for Dortmund. But listing him as a winter transfer? The mind boggles. Why not stick him on the bench at 1999 UEFA Champions League Final for good measure? ArtVandelay13 (talk) 12:37, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

I dare say that it took you longer to craft that response than it did to roll back the edit in question. For what it's worth, the IP in question is based in India, and Winter in India stretches into April, so this is plausibly an internationalistic hiccup (compounded by the general ignorance regarding when to date transfers that we have trouble with all the time). Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 13:20, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

GA review request

I have just nominated The Oval (Belfast) for GA status, can someone from the project please give it a review? The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 16:35, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

I've been reviewing a few football GA candidates recently, but there's several football articles higher up in the queue so you are likely to have some time to wait yet. If anyone fancies some reviewing, there's currently a backlog of 63 nominations in the Sports and recreation category of Wikipedia:Good article nominations. Football related ones include Shimizu S-Pulse, Pavel Nedvěd, Gordon Banks, Cristiano Ronaldo, Neville Southall, C.A. Peñarol, Richard Cresswell and more. Oldelpaso (talk) 17:24, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Club honours

Does playing three games (out of 30) in the 2004–05 Alpha Ethniki warrant an "honour" for the league championship, as at Peter Philipakos? Or the (maximum) two matches of the eleven the club played in the 2004–05 Greek Cup? Thanks, C679 09:01, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

Well if the rules in Greece are the same as in England (as I recall/understand them), he would not have got a medal, if that's any help...... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:08, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

That's what I'd imagine, and the article seems to have been majorly edited by someone who appears to be a personal connection of the subject, but it would be good to have some more opinions before I remove it. Thanks, C679 09:12, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

In my view even 0 games played would warant that. Just being in the squad, training with the team and possibly pushing them. It's also the easiest to verify inclusion criteria. -Koppapa (talk) 17:16, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

Like Chris says, there is likely a rule in Greece (as in England and elsewhere) which states you must play at least X games to qualify for a winner's medal. However, that is WP:OR; we need WP:RS to WP:V. GiantSnowman 17:23, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

OR it may be, but doesn't WP:BURDEN say that if it's not referenced, it may be removed until such a time where one can be provided? C679 22:21, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

In many countries 1 appearance is enough, and in many also even being part of the roster is also enough, just as Koppapa said. Now, I am not sure about Greece, however assuming English exemple is unworthy for other countries as many don´t apply any minimum appearances. FkpCascais (talk) 03:24, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

For future reference, how many appearances are required to earn a winners medal in England? The Premier League website says 10 but I cannot find any information with regard to the Football League. Also, how should the honour be referenced on a players page? A link to Soccerbase showing games played that season? Cheers. T 88 R (talk) 16:05, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

It's 10 games because that's a quarter, so 12 would be the threshold in the football league. As others have said, I wouldn't at all assume that this rule applies on the contintent - in Germany all squad members get a medal, and this is much more the norm. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 16:49, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

Have you got a source showing 12 appearances is the threshold to gain a Football League medal? Eldumpo (talk) 19:16, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

There must be a valid reference somewhere. In yesterday's ManUtd - Villa game the commentator's spent a few minutes about 10 games being the threshold for getting recognition of the award. Brudder Andrusha (talk) 17:29, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

We should never, ever assume that because a player has met the minumim threshold of appearances then he has therefore won a medal. ONLY is WP:RS confirm it. To answer C679's earlier question - no source = no honour. GiantSnowman 19:32, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

This article might be of interest - especially about Mateja Kezman. GiantSnowman 12:52, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

No one likes us, we don't care

According to the article No one likes us, we don't care, "the image of many Millwall fans as hooligans [was] perpetuated by certain sections of the media" (italics added for emphasis). This reads like a slur towards the press and is quite pov, it's taking sides for Millwall and against the press. Is it really the job of Wikipedia to take sides? 94.209.187.34 (talk) 22:05, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

TBH most of the article appears to be a coatrack for defending Millwall's reputation...... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:39, 24 April 2013 (UTC)