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Revision as of 22:21, 26 May 2006
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Here, we determine which articles are to be featured articles (FAs). FAs exemplify Wikipedia's very best work and satisfy the FA criteria. All editors are welcome to review nominations; please see the review FAQ. Before nominating an article, nominators may wish to receive feedback by listing it at Peer review and adding the review to the FAC peer review sidebar. Editors considering their first nomination, and any subsequent nomination before their first FA promotion, are strongly advised to seek the involvement of a mentor, to assist in the preparation and processing of the nomination. Nominators must be sufficiently familiar with the subject matter and sources to deal with objections during the featured article candidates (FAC) process. Nominators who are not significant contributors to the article should consult regular editors of the article before nominating it. Nominators are expected to respond positively to constructive criticism and to make efforts to address objections promptly. An article should not be on Featured article candidates and Peer review or Good article nominations at the same time. The FAC coordinators—Ian Rose, Gog the Mild, David Fuchs and FrB.TG—determine the timing of the process for each nomination. For a nomination to be promoted to FA status, consensus must be reached that it meets the criteria. Consensus is built among reviewers and nominators; the coordinators determine whether there is consensus. A nomination will be removed from the list and archived if, in the judgment of the coordinators:
It is assumed that all nominations have good qualities; this is why the main thrust of the process is to generate and resolve critical comments in relation to the criteria, and why such resolution is given considerably more weight than declarations of support. Do not use graphics or complex templates on FAC nomination pages. Graphics such as Done and Not done slow down the page load time, and complex templates can lead to errors in the FAC archives. For technical reasons, templates that are acceptable are {{collapse top}} and {{collapse bottom}}, used to hide offtopic discussions, and templates such as {{green}} that apply colours to text and are used to highlight examples without altering fonts. Other templates such as {{done}}, {{not done}}, {{tq}}, {{tq2}}, and {{xt}}, may be removed. An editor is allowed to be the sole nominator of only one article at a time, but two nominations are allowed if the editor is a co-nominator on at least one of them. If a nomination is archived, the nominator(s) should take adequate time to work on resolving issues before re-nominating. None of the nominators may nominate or co-nominate any article for two weeks unless given leave to do so by a coordinator; if such an article is nominated without asking for leave, a coordinator will decide whether to remove it. A coordinator may exempt from this restriction an archived nomination that attracted no (or minimal) feedback. Nominations in urgent need of review are listed here. To contact the FAC coordinators, please leave a message on the FAC talk page, or use the {{@FAC}} notification template elsewhere. A bot will update the article talk page after the article is promoted or the nomination archived; the delay in bot processing can range from minutes to several days, and the Table of Contents – This page: |
Featured article candidates (FAC): Featured article review (FAR): Today's featured article (TFA):
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Nominating
Commenting, etc
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Nominations
Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Embrun, Ontario
Notable movement in recent architecture. The article underwent a major re-write in April, and has been through a peer review, accessible above, and most of the points were met. Self-nom, with collaborators. DVD+ R/W 19:20, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Object.I love architecture, so I object reluctantly. There are not enough inline citations, and some of the paragraphs are too short, only having one sentence. Other than that, the article is high quality and is close to FA standard. If these changes are made, I would love to support. RyanGerbil10 21:49, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- I have made changes that you suggested, added more citations and merged and expanded short paragraphs. Are you willing to take another look? DVD+ R/W 03:28, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
- I now Support, my objections have been addressed. RyanGerbil10 14:46, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Objectper RyanGerbil - also I'd prefer "Architects associated with deconstructivism" be merged with "See also" as well since it is just a collection of wikilinks. RN 21:55, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- Comment - Isn't "Deconstructivism" also the name for a movement in works of art and literature? Fieari 22:39, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- You might be thinking of Deconstruction. But if not feel free to contribute any examples you are thinking of. DVD+ R/W 22:51, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- Sorry, but weakly object - while most of my issues with the prose have been taken care of (see the peer review above), more inline citations are necessary. Some other suggestions:
As is done in WP:FOOTNOTE, for footnotes, the footnote should be located right after the punctuation mark, such that there is no space inbetween. For example, change blah blah [2]. to blah blah.[2]Combine architects w/ see also section, as noted above.
There are several paragraphs that are too short, which sometimes disrupts the flow of the article. These should either be expanded or merged.Double check for typos like .[1].- Thanks, AndyZ t 02:13, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
- I have added a few more notes, formated the notes, merged some short paragraphs, expanded a section, and merged the architects associated with deconstructivism section. Are you ready to take another look? DVD+ R/W 03:14, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
- Nice job, a few things about the footnotes though: there is a {{citation needed}} that needs to be referenced, I would prefer if there were at least 1 footnote per section, and the web footnotes (like 5+8) be cited according to WP:CITE/ES and/or {{Cite web}}. Also, if possible, please provide page numbers for the books under the footnotes section. AndyZ t 14:49, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
- I have added a few more notes, formated the notes, merged some short paragraphs, expanded a section, and merged the architects associated with deconstructivism section. Are you ready to take another look? DVD+ R/W 03:14, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support Article has been edited since listing for Featured status. (Self Nom.)--Mcginnly 13:17, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support. I've moved around some of the images and templates near the top because having an image on the left at the beginning of an article is highly distracting to (an English-speaking) reader. I know virtually nothing about the subject, so I can't speak for the article's accuracy, but it seems detailed and well-sourced. I would prefer the use of {{cite book}} for references, but I won't make a big deal of it. —CuiviénenT|C|@ on Wednesday, 31 May 2006 at 16:16 UTC
- Support Although I agree with Andy that more inline citation would be good. Staxringold talkcontribs 17:47, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
- Comment.
- Article has only two major sections (leaving "See also", etc.). This looks awkward and I suggest that the sub-sections of "History, context & influences" can be made full-fledged sections.
- The sentence in the lead: "It is characterised by ideas of fragmentation, non-linear processes of design, an interest in manipulating ideas of a structure's surface or skin, and apparent non-Euclidean geometry, which serve to distort and dislocate some of the elements of architecture, such as structure and envelope." should be broken into multiple sentences. More importantly, it is unclear whether the italized part (done by me) is a qualifier for non-linear processes of design or a separate characteristic altogether.
- In the last sentence of the first paragraph, use some alternative for "stimulating" as it looks like passing a judgement on the subject.
- In the last paragraph of the lead in "Deconstructivist architecture exhibition", italics should include "exhibition".
- It is unclear why postmodernism's return to "historical trappings" are sly and ironic.
- "With its publication, functionalism and rationalism, the two main branches of modernism, were overturned as paradigms according to postmoderist and deconstructivist readings, with differing readings." - confusing.
- "Rather than Separating ornament and..." - why is the "S" capital?
- If possible, try to get at least stub articles on the red-links mentioned in the article.
- Wikilink of "Grid" leads to disambiguation page. Fix it. Same with "Locus". Find others and fix.
- "...own Santa Monica residence, (from 1978), has been". Use either braces or commas. Not both.
- What is "erasure"? Provide context (or link to definition).
- "Lin's 1982 project for the Vietnam Veterans Memorial, with its granite slabs severing the ground plane, is one." Ending looks abrupt. Copyedit for better flow.
- "1988 MOMA exhibition" does not justify being a separate paragraph as its seems of very less significance as the other broad topics. Either make it stand out or merge with some other.
- In the same section, the quote and the image overlap in 800x600 screen resolution. Fix it.
- The sentences in "Computer-aided design" need to be re-ordered/re-organized so that context is present in the beginning, and not in the middle.
- Provide link or context to "exigence".
- "The two aspects of the critical, exigence and analysis are found in deconstructivism." I think the word "regionalism" is missing after "critical".
- "The Wexner Center brings vital topics such as function and precedent to prominence and displays their urgency in architectural discourse, in an analytical and critical way." How?
- Make sure that reference links are after punctuation marks, not before. At many places, a space is missing after the reference link.
- "Critics of Deconstruction see...". Why is "of" capitalized?
- This looks enough for now. -Ambuj Saxena (talk) 18:29, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
I belive that for it's excelence in acurately describing Saturn's Moon, that this article should be a Featured Article. It is clear that there has been much research into this article, that it is extensive and among the best that Wikipedia has to offer. Tuvas 18:40, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- Oppose - Sorry, but this is too technical for a non-scientific individual (like me) to get through. The language should be edited to make it more readable by a broad audience. Also, there's somthing wrong with the footnotes - why is the first one an 8? User:The Disco King (not signed in) 204.40.1.129 19:06, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- I don't see what your refering to with the first footnote being #8. I'm seeing it just as would be expected, the first one being 1. ^ a b Celestia Solar System Definition File. Retrieved March 22, 2006.
- I understand now, the first seven footnotes are in the infobox. A bit confusing; is there any way to address that? User:The Disco King (not signed in) 204.40.1.129 19:47, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, no, that's how this system works. --Spangineer[es] (háblame) 19:56, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- If all that info is mentioned later in the article, then you could just cite it there, in the body text—it's doesn't necessarily have to be cited in the infobox. Everyking 07:49, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
- Regarding this issue, if you want, you can use {{Ref label}} like Rabindranath Tagore uses. -Ambuj Saxena (talk) 09:39, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
- If all that info is mentioned later in the article, then you could just cite it there, in the body text—it's doesn't necessarily have to be cited in the infobox. Everyking 07:49, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, no, that's how this system works. --Spangineer[es] (háblame) 19:56, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- I understand now, the first seven footnotes are in the infobox. A bit confusing; is there any way to address that? User:The Disco King (not signed in) 204.40.1.129 19:47, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Weak object.The only issue I have is the one paragraph lead. Other than that, it seems fine to me. RyanGerbil10 21:51, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- Excellent. Full Support. RyanGerbil10 15:38, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
- Oppose - It's almost there, but there's still a little work to be done. The lead section neads to be longer, and the named surface features section needs to be expanded and converted to prose. Perhaps the article is a bit complex for non-scientific people, as well, but that's hard for me to deduce because I'm a very technical person and I understand everything. But I'll take the guy's word for it above. bob rulz 22:49, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- I've attempted to clean up some of the technical language contained within the article. I guess one problem with working on this subject is that it is a bit difficult for me to distinguish technical language from non-technical. After a re-reading, I have replaced some of the less need technical language with less technical wording. In some places, technical language is used, but is quickly explained for the general audience. I have expanded, a bit, the section on named features. This section is usually standard stuff in most planetary articles, and is rarely expanded upon. I'm not sure how this can be made further into prose, or expanded. I've edited the Cryovolcanism section to make sure that the points that are most important points are not buried deep within the prose of that section. Finally, I have edited some of the imports from the French FA to make them fit with the style of the rest of the article.--Volcanopele 20:24, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support now as the article was changed.
Oppose :( Sorry, but it's not quite there yet:
Overall, this article deserves FA but needs further work. A lot of extra info can come from French article. I'm gonna put this one on my to-do. Drop in my user talk if interested. -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 16:27, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support. Improvements have been made, and while the work is not done, it had tipped over for me now. Nick Mks 19:55, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
- Deferred support. This article has the makings of greatness, but needs to have everything that's in the French article. Prose problems mentioned above seem largely to be the result of too-literal translations of French ("Chronology of Exploration of Enceladus" might work OK in French, but is rather awkward in English. And who exactly decided the French adjective terrestre was best rendered as "Earth-located"? They should be smacked over the head with a copy of LaRousse.
I will be going through this later to try and smooth out some of the post-translation problems. But I think we should put off promoting this until, as per WP:ECHO we have everything the French article does. Daniel Case 21:31, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
- And who exactly decided the French adjective terrestre was best rendered as "Earth-located"? Me. And I have a hard head, so go for the Larousse. :)))
- I'm sure there is a bunch of things like that left on the page, but that was a first version, and like I said on the talkpage, it needs to be copyedited
- needs to have everything that's in the French article. Yes, yes, and yes. However, the section named "Cryovolcanism" is in fact two section in the French version, and they're quite difficult to split. -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 21:37, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
- "needs to have everything in the French article" I should add to grafikm_fr's comments on this issue. In the French article, there is a section on Enceladus' "atmosphere". I believe such a section is now completely unneccessary and is not needed in this article. The atmosphere found in early 2005 was later found to be a volcanic plume, a plume that is fully covered in the cryovolcanism section. Now my French is admittedly a little weak (despite four years of it in high school...), but I think we have sufficiently covered what is said in the French "atmosphere" section. I don't see the need for covering the details of the UVIS stellar occultations.Volcanopele 23:44, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
- Since you are a professional astronomer working on the subject, I believe you :))) -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 23:58, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
- I did mean to add that that section was probably redundant (in fact, the French article could be cleared up on that score).
- I like what I'm seeing more now (I appreciate someone noticing, and changing, the commas in numbers to decimal points. Only remaining issue: consistency of unit and system use. There are sentences where "kilometers" and "km" are used within words of each other. All references should be to km.
- Also, in some places English equivalents are given in parentheses. Our stylebook, however, says SI only should be used in scientific articles. This seems to be how it's done in the other articles on Saturn's moons, and I believe it should be done thus here. Unless someone has a good reason otherwise. Daniel Case 16:05, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
- I've converted kilometer references to km (except in the lead section) and convert the prose part to SI only.--Volcanopele 18:04, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
- Since you are a professional astronomer working on the subject, I believe you :))) -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 23:58, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
ConditionalSupport I don't believe it's too technical. I do think it's a little heavy on images, and as a result, the formatting goes a little awry in places. I would think that, for example, one of either Figure 2a or 2b could go without losing anything. --BillC 22:30, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
- Good enough for me now. Changed to support. BillC 05:05, 31 May 2006 (UTC). Add: I see that something's a little amiss around Name & Exploration of Enceladus. I'll assume someone will fix that. BillC 05:09, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
- My first inclination would be to drop 2b since the format of that image doesn't fit with the style of the rest of figures used in the article.--Volcanopele 20:24, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
- All great. Support! Worldtraveller 09:26, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Oppose, though more on style grounds than on on the article's contents which look excellent. I hope these things can be corrected because I'd like to support.- Length is a bit of a concern at 49kb - try to summarise a bit more. Mercury (planet) is 35kb long and is a featured article so it can certainly be done.
- Please capitalise section headings in accordance with the style manual.
- Aesthetic issues - Image:Enceladus orbit 2.jpg covers a region extending well beyond Enceladus's orbit, which appears as empty black space on the small inline version. Could the image be cropped? Also, image placement in the orbit section is cluttered. Over the whole article, several different image widths are used - generally, you should try to use just one common image width.
- Named surface features is very short, and doesn't read terribly well with repeated mentions of 'Arabian Nights'.
- 'Name' section is very short, and could be merged with the history of observations section following it.
- Nothing wrong with citing a paper you've authored or co-authored (I cited one of mine on Cat's Eye Nebula), but I am not sure if citing your own work so many times is desirable - about half the inline citations seem to be to papers co-authored by User:Volcanopele, one of the main contributors to the article. I think this makes the selection of sources seem a little narrow. This may or may not be something that concerns other editors though. Worldtraveller 00:26, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
- A few comments:
- Perhaps 'Named surface features' and 'Name' can be combined. Still wouldn't make for a very long section, but IMHO is most desireable. There really isn't a way to lengthen 'Named Surface Features' without even more redundances.
- The length has always been a concern for me as well, but I admittedly have had trouble decided how to condense the material in the main article so as to put the information in a daughter article. A few sections that could be condensed (and would make perfect sense to condense), would probably be the 'Cryovolcanism' and 'Exploration of Enceladus' sections, I'll see what I can do tomorrow.
- As to being a co-author on a few of the cited papers, unfortunately there isn't much alternative. The ISS paper on Enceladus is a primary resource for information on Enceladus geology and cryovolcanism as seen by Cassini, there are no alternatives to this. I would understand if I had a paper that discussed a small sub-set of Enceladus science, then cited that paper for basic facts. But as it is, I don't see any alternative citations (except perhaps citing press releases if possible).
- Section capitalization fixed
- The image issue has come up before. My first inclination is to remove Figure 2b, but I have just implimented a possible solution. I've enlarged (or shrunk) all images to 250 px wide. This improves their visibility per a reviewer's request above. I have moved and shrunk Figure 2b (now Figure 14) down the 'Interaction with E ring' section, where I think it fits in a better, and with its current size, allows the article to flow better. The issue with Figure 2a, can be resolved by cropping it down to just beyond Dione's orbit, which is mentioned in the article. This should fix that objection.
- Thanks for such detailed comments. These really help and hopefully with the fixed I have just added and will add tomorrow, I can change your object vote to a support vote.--Volcanopele 01:05, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks for your response - further comments of mine:
- I think merging those two sections would be great.
- You may find that addressing any concerns about technical language could also help to shorten the article. One part I found that was perhaps over-technical involved the designations of the types of cratered terrain - these designations probably aren't of great interest to a non-astronomer and the section outlining them could be somewhat shortened by omitting them and just saying that there are terrains of varying ages.
- As for papers, much better to cite peer-reviewed papers than press releases - my concern was not really anything serious but just something I thought might perhaps be undesirable. If alternative citations do not exist, then no problems!
- Something I just noticed: Crater counts using Cassini images have suggested ages for Sarandib Planitia of either 170 million years or 3.7 billion years - surely the latter age is a mistake?
- Image placement looks much better now.
- Once the orbit image is cropped and the two short sections dealt with I will certainly support this nomination. Worldtraveller 15:36, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
- The orbit image has been cropped and the 'Name' and 'Named surface features' sections have been merged. Regarding the age estimates, currently there are two different theories regarding the impactor flux in the outer solar system. When you apply these theories to the craters counts found by Cassini, you arrive at two vastly different answers. For now, there is no consense on which theory is correct so, both are included here, though I have added a note to explain this difference.--Volcanopele 17:02, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
- Comment Perhaps the differences should be noted within the text rather than as a note? Even I was puzzled by it, and I know a lot about astronomy. bob rulz 03:00, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
- Support- It's there now. Reyk YO! 09:46, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Very well written, comprehensive, well-sourced article about the "inventor" of travel guides and fairly controversial historic figure (see talk:Georg Forster). That said, and although it went through peer review, it would be great for a biography specialist(s) to volunteer provide suggestions and help eliminate what short-comings there still may be. --Mmounties (Talk) 06:23, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support - good work.Blnguyen | Have your say!!! 06:31, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- Oppose. WP:LEAD is too short, it should summarize the entire article. There are also too few in-line citations, and having a list of sources that the dewiki authors used isn't much use here. Dewiki and enwiki have very different standards when it comes to citing sources. Angr (t • c) 07:50, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- I will re-verify the article using the English-language sources available (mostly Sain's biography, the only English-language biography that I am aware of) over the weekend. Perhaps we can then get rid of some of the lengthy German source list, and keep only what is necessary for the article. Would a lead section approximately twice as long as now be okay? Kusma (討論) 14:32, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- Well, quality is obviously more important than quantity, but I think to do the article justice the lead would have to be between twice and thrice as long as it is now. Angr (t • c) 15:03, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- I have worked a bit in this direction, but probably need to expand the lead more. Kusma (討論) 21:01, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
- Lead looks quite well now, IMHO. --Mmounties (Talk) 19:26, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
- The article is much better now. It just occurred to me right now that it still needs {{Persondata}}. Angr (talk) 14:25, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
- Added. Kusma (討論) 14:38, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
- The article is much better now. It just occurred to me right now that it still needs {{Persondata}}. Angr (talk) 14:25, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
- Lead looks quite well now, IMHO. --Mmounties (Talk) 19:26, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
- I have worked a bit in this direction, but probably need to expand the lead more. Kusma (討論) 21:01, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
- Well, quality is obviously more important than quantity, but I think to do the article justice the lead would have to be between twice and thrice as long as it is now. Angr (t • c) 15:03, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- I will re-verify the article using the English-language sources available (mostly Sain's biography, the only English-language biography that I am aware of) over the weekend. Perhaps we can then get rid of some of the lengthy German source list, and keep only what is necessary for the article. Would a lead section approximately twice as long as now be okay? Kusma (討論) 14:32, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- Object; Angr is right; this needs more inline citations and a longer lead. External links would be great too. --Spangineer[es] (háblame) 12:49, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- Please take another look when you get the chance. I believe all of your concerns have now been addressed. --Mmounties (Talk) 19:28, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Object,per Angr and Spangineer. Also, I found the prose to be a bit choppy, with perhaps too many one and two sentence paragraphs. Overall though, the article is very informative and well-written. RyanGerbil10 16:10, 26 May 2006 (UTC)- I have removed the German references and re-sourced most of the article. I'll work on the remaining {{fact}}s later today. If I find sources for these facts, will the number of inline citations be sufficient? Kusma (討論) 21:01, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
- This is much better. Support. RyanGerbil10 15:24, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
- I have removed the German references and re-sourced most of the article. I'll work on the remaining {{fact}}s later today. If I find sources for these facts, will the number of inline citations be sufficient? Kusma (討論) 21:01, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
- Comment. Do the section titles have to be "Forster's heritage"; can't they be just "Heritage", etc. The reader knows this is about Forster so no need to mention his name again and again in the titles. -Ambuj Saxena (talk) 09:45, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
- They don't; if you have a good section title for "Forster and nations", please edit the article and insert it. Kusma (討論) 21:01, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
- The section titles have been changed. Kusma (討論) 14:40, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
- They don't; if you have a good section title for "Forster and nations", please edit the article and insert it. Kusma (討論) 21:01, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
- Comment (from one of the article's main authors; of course I support "featured" status for this article, but I guess my voice doesn't really count here). Since the nomination, the number of inline citations has tripled, the length of the lead section more than doubled. Most of the remaining statements that have a [citation needed] could be removed without much harm. Have I adressed the objections above and are there further suggestions how to improve this article? Kusma (討論) 00:16, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
A self-nom. This is an article about the group of seven elite educational institutes in India. The article has improved a lot since its first FAC, when it was nominated by an anonymous IP. It has also gone through an extensive peer review and the suggestions given there have been adequately addressed. With the help of a number of enthusiastic editors, in my opinion it fulfils all criteria to become a Featured Article and hence I am nominating it. -Ambuj Saxena (talk) 06:24, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- What happened to the table? I thought it was kind of useful. Raul654 06:28, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- Reply. It was suggested by an editor in the Peer Review that the table is unnecessary for the article. Further, since all the IITs don't have a motto, incomplete table looked bad. The table took too much space and except for the the shields and motto of the institutes (the details of which might be unwarrented in summary style), everything is still included in paragraph format. -Ambuj Saxena (talk) 06:35, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support Fine article. Rlevse 11:41, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support Yet another fine addition to Wikipedia's coverage of Indian topics. My only small issue is that the "IIT Family" and "Establishment and development" sections could probably use a little more inline citation, but it's fine as it is. Finding that Dilbert cartoon and finding the correct place for it in the article is hilarious, IMO. Staxringold 14:30, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- Reply. I have added more inline citations to the "IIT Family" section. Almost all of the first half of "Establisment" section uses single source (IIT Kharagpur History) and I have indicated it by the end. -Ambuj Saxena (talk) 16:23, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- Strong Support a lot of hard work by Ambuj. Rama's Arrow 14:38, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support Excellent work in making this article FA quality by the editors. --Blacksun 15:51, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- Strong Support Excellent article. Followed it from peer review. Well done.--Dwaipayan (talk) 16:03, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support. I only have one small issue- isn't it a bit ostentatious to have the large blue quotes insted of normal quotes? I don't really care if they're in the article, I just think they're strange. RyanGerbil10 16:14, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- Reply. I used the quotes because I have seen other Featured Articles use it. However, things wouldn't look much different if we just use the normal quotes. If you insist, I can very well change that. -Ambuj Saxena (talk) 16:23, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, those large quotes seem to be becoming quite popular on newer FA's for some reason... I prefer the Template:" myself, but even Raul has reverted me there - LOL. Oh yeah, Support for a good article. RN 16:40, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- Reply. I used the quotes because I have seen other Featured Articles use it. However, things wouldn't look much different if we just use the normal quotes. If you insist, I can very well change that. -Ambuj Saxena (talk) 16:23, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support - Looks good! One small criticism - the caption for the Dilbert comic just reiterates what's written in the comic. I couldn't think of a good way to rephrase it, though... User:The Disco King (not signed in) 204.40.1.129 16:57, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- Reply. I have changed the caption. Hope this one is better. -Ambuj Saxena (talk) 17:34, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Object; I'm feeling like a broken record. Here's another high-quality article that fails to cite sources in key sections like "Undergraduate education", "Postgraduate and doctoral education", and "Culture and student life". The first part of the Education section could use some more citations as well (it's unclear where 90% of the information there came from). Also, writing quality is rather poor—I found and fixed a "went" attempting to pass as a past participle, and noted excessive use of "a lot" in the Alumni section. Also, "the total government funding to most of the good quality engineering colleges". "Good" is almost always a completely wasted word. Another useless word, "very", appears four times. Tighten the language, please. --Spangineer[es] (háblame) 17:31, 26 May 2006 (UTC)- Reply Spangineer, could you please give some other examples of language errors that need rectifying? Rama's Arrow 18:22, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- Reply. I have added references wherever applicable. However grant me one freedom. I have used the B.Tech ordinance from IIT Madras. I am not sure if I would be willing to copy same info from every IIT and place 7 trailing references everytime after the article mentions "All IITs..". The reference added by me gives an overview of the whole B.Tech program and mentions things like students having common subject and having to take "breadth" subjects. For more clarity, I can even source the official first year time-table from IIT Kharagpur where it can be clearly seen that there is a common curriculum for all first years, but unfortunately the PDF document is on internal notice board which will require hosting on a free web-server (like geocities) before it can be referenced. I can do that; but only if extremely essential. Regarding the use of "good", I can't possibly think of an alternative to write as the fundings vary with size of college as well as reputation. If you can suggest some neutral adjective, I will be grateful. I have replaced "A lot" with "Many" as it sounds more nuetral. I prefer using it as I don't want to mention each and every alumni who has achieved notability, which in itself is very vague. I have removed all but one instance of "very", where I found it useful. If there are any more actionable concerns, please let me know. -Ambuj Saxena (talk) 18:30, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- Reply Update. I have replaced the word "good", and have possibly addressed all your concerns. -Ambuj Saxena (talk) 18:40, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- Examples of ambiguities/things to fix:
- "The IIT-JEE is well known for changing the pattern of paper quite often in order to discourage study by rote." Pattern of paper?
- "The age limit for appearing in IIT-JEE" That is, maximum age for entrance?
- Might just be me, but "have been offering reservation for Backward Classes" doesn't sound right. Should "reservation" in that paragraph be "reserved spots"?
- Relatively constant sentence structure throughout, especially section "The IIT family". Combine some of those short sentences. One example of many: "The campus is located in a wooded land of about 2.5 km² (620 acres). It has 15 academic departments and nearly 100 laboratories. The campus has 13 hostels."
- "Most of the IITs have been consistently ranked over other engineering colleges in India in almost every engineering education survey." Most, consistently, almost every... numerous and conflicting qualifiers.
- "All the IITs provide residential facilities to their students, research scholars and faculty inside their campus." Are the facilities inside or the people?
- Spelling inconsistency: both organized (6 times) and organised (1 time) are used, and I recall seeing another instance of british spelling somewhere. Needs a thorough copyedit.
- Many other things I've fixed related to word choice and style that should be applied more generally—unnecessary prepositions ("opened up" to "opened", "finalized upon" to "selected"), use of "etc." (entirely useless; something is either worth mentioning or it isn't), and numerous other things that can be seen in my recent edits and should be eliminated throughout the article. I've also added a few {{fact}} tags.
- Hope this helps. Please look for these problems throughout the article and don't just fix these examples. If I only wanted the examples fixed, I would have done it myself. --Spangineer[es] (háblame) 19:49, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- Examples of ambiguities/things to fix:
- What exaclty in say "Post-graduate and doctoral education" section requires an inline citation? Everything in it is pretty standard for a research university system. Is their really a point to cluttering an article with citations? Obviously, the information probably came from the material in "further reading" section. Lets not go overboard with inline citations. They should be used only for information that requires them - not every standard sentence. I dont need a citation to know that a university which offers PHD has teaching assistantship positions for its doctorate students. That is just stupid. --Blacksun 19:40, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- They shouldn't be necessary for every sentence, but a citation at the end of the section linking to the graduate school's website would be nice to have. Please see User:Spangineer/inline citations. --Spangineer[es] (háblame) 19:49, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- I understand what you are saying but I have to still disagree. External links to the schools websites are provided in the external link section. What is the point of linking it in that section? I mean the information in it is REALLY standard. It is pretty much the norm across the world for a research university. If someone wants to verify they can just visit the website from external link section. Since, all the schools in the IIT system have different websites it would be fairly irrelevant information to link in the section itself. Again, that is just my opinion. However, yes a citation should be provided for the statement that says Govt. employs geologists in the system on contractual basis. Everything else is too standard to merit a citation. --Blacksun 20:10, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- It's typical for websites used as references to appear in the references section, and for websites that supply supplementary information to appear in the external links section. I see what you're saying, but if something was used as a reference, it should be noted as such. Besides, some of that information there isn't really "obvious": "The reason for starting this program was" (says who?)
"The benefit of saving a year coupled with scholarships made this an attractive choice." (according to who? Not everyone does it I assume)(overly picky, sorry) "the doctorate program of IITs is considered average" (according to which surveys?). --Spangineer[es] (háblame) 20:23, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- Whew...looks like a lot of debate enraged this page when I was busy fixing the article. To Spangineer: I have addressed all raised doubts (by editing at suitable places), but I don't think that I am able enough to ponder over the language issues (use of "organized" vs "organised") as all I could ponder over has been fixed in the last one month or so. In summary, I have changed "pattern of paper" to "pattern of question paper". The age limit sentence appears perfectly fine. It may be due to difference in way people speak english. This sentence structure is very common in India. The reservation is a complicated issue. I suggest you go through the articles detailing them before suggesting changes. Often people mistake "reserved seat" for "quota". "reserved spots" has a totally different meaning which is wrong in this context. I have merged sentences wherever possible. Regarding residential facilities, is there really two ways of understanding the sentence? Anyways, I have copyedited to make it clearer. "Etc" has been eradicated. I will address concerns when raised. -Ambuj Saxena (talk) 20:48, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- In short, this is what I did. -Ambuj Saxena (talk) 20:53, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- Looks better. You apparently want to use American spelling, which is fine (it's the only right way =), but then should terms like football be changed to soccer? Just wondering. I don't understand "pattern of paper" or "pattern of question paper". What is question paper? Are they modifying the test questions or is there some sort of pattern on the paper like stripes or spots or something? Thanks for combining sentences; it's common in the US too but good writing employs a variety of sentence complexities to keep the reader engaged. Re residential facilities, I take it to mean that the university has residential facilities on campus for everyone, but I'm surprised that professors live on campus. Never heard of such a thing, nor is
theirthere further mention of the type of housing they have. As a result, I begin to wonder if it's just a subpar usage of the preposition "inside" and that the university supplies housing for everyone, some of which is on-campus and some of which is off-campus (which fits in better with what I'm familiar with). It's probably true that much of what I am brining up is regional differences in English, but terms which are only understood by one group of English speakers should be avoided, because we have a global audience. --Spangineer[es] (háblame) 21:21, 26 May 2006 (UTC)- Question paper = exam - the questions you get during the exam. It is a common way to refer to exams in many countries in English. But ya, it should probably be changed to exam. --Blacksun 22:44, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- Reply to Spangineer. Sorry, didn't notice you left more comments. Now, coming back to the comments. Nobody in India calls football as soccer (at least most people), while almost everywhere I see people use "organize" instead of "organise". Given a choice, I will change "organize" instead of "football". If you think this is essential, I can do it rightaway. Looks like there need to be some changes incorporated for global audiences. "Pattern of question paper" means the pattern that fits a given examination. For example, everyone is aware that GRE has a fixed pattern of question. Although the questions are different, they fall into some category (like verbal, quantitative, etc) and whenever you see the question paper, although you have never seen that question before, there is no element of surprize. However in IIT-JEE, they will always try to catch you off-guard so that candidates don't cram up questions of a type and succeed. Suddenly in one year they will have negative marking for questions. In other year, they will invent a new definition of distance and ask students to use that to do all the calculations. One time they will stress on proofs of theorems, and on the other they will ask many numericals. The questions will be from syllabus, but not the usual type that you solve in classrooms. In simple words, you can't guess which way the question paper will go. To me the meaning is very clear that there is no fixed pattern. Based on my description above, if you can suggest some other way of putting it for global audience, I will be glad to change it. Yes, the Professors too live inside the campus. I thought it to be no-brainer so didn't mention it. Although its not mandatory for them, most of them do stay inside the campus. I can tell about IIT Kharagpur (things will be similar in other IITs, I believe). The professors live in bunglows (independent houses) given by IITs. The bachelor professors live in flats (again owned by IIT). All the students have to compulsarily live in student hostels and only in rare cases are they allowed to live outside the campus. Please note that for students who's actual home is in IIT premises (like being children of professors/officers/workers), they can live in their own home. Anyway, thanks for letting us know that these things that we take for granted might not be so common elsewhere. Is there anything in the above paragraph that needs mention in the main article? Let me know. -Ambuj Saxena (talk) 09:09, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
- Whew...looks like a lot of debate enraged this page when I was busy fixing the article. To Spangineer: I have addressed all raised doubts (by editing at suitable places), but I don't think that I am able enough to ponder over the language issues (use of "organized" vs "organised") as all I could ponder over has been fixed in the last one month or so. In summary, I have changed "pattern of paper" to "pattern of question paper". The age limit sentence appears perfectly fine. It may be due to difference in way people speak english. This sentence structure is very common in India. The reservation is a complicated issue. I suggest you go through the articles detailing them before suggesting changes. Often people mistake "reserved seat" for "quota". "reserved spots" has a totally different meaning which is wrong in this context. I have merged sentences wherever possible. Regarding residential facilities, is there really two ways of understanding the sentence? Anyways, I have copyedited to make it clearer. "Etc" has been eradicated. I will address concerns when raised. -Ambuj Saxena (talk) 20:48, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- It's typical for websites used as references to appear in the references section, and for websites that supply supplementary information to appear in the external links section. I see what you're saying, but if something was used as a reference, it should be noted as such. Besides, some of that information there isn't really "obvious": "The reason for starting this program was" (says who?)
- Good work Spangineer! Ambuj, perhaps you can mark up additional references using {{inotes}}? I agree though, it still needs a copyedit, preferably by a non-Indian editor. =Nichalp «Talk»= 04:30, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
- Reply to Spangineer and Nichalp. I have added 16 inotes to the article wherever I felt the need. Hope this is sufficient. -Ambuj Saxena (talk) 10:28, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support - Have followed the article from first FAC to PR to this, though haven't contributed to the article much. Nice work. - Aksi_great (talk) 19:55, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- Object. As per Spangineer. Plus, some assertions are unreferenced like the most widely sought degree of IITs has been the B.Tech. degree. Is the Dilbert strip cartoon really necessary? The alumni list is haphazard, not chronological. The IIT stub at the bottom includes duplicate links to other sections of the article. It would be better if it restricts to the 7 IITs only for clarity. Also, it seems too much attention is given to criticism and reservation. Both sections could be merged with the main article on Reservation Policy in IITs. Anycase, the pie-chart should certainly go as it is duplicated. I agree with Spangineer about imprudent use of American and Anglo vocabulary which may put off both sections of audience.
- But I am more concerned about absolute lack of information as to how/why IITs are considered superior to other educational institutions and varsitites with reference to syllabuses, pedagogical techniques, placements, associated stats, etc. Education section has a lot of scope for expansion by trimming section on culture. Give illustrations on IIT pedagogy. Entrance Competition subsection should probably be moved to Admission section. Anwar 22:16, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- Surprise surprise. 1) Yes, Dilbert cartoon is a great addition for this article. It allows people not familiar with IIT to relate to its status. 2) Why does pie chart need to go? It looks fine to me. *then again why am I asking you to explain your reasoning as you have a tendency to never follow up*. 3) Isn't the article mostly restricted to the 7 IITs already? 4) Considering that one of the biggest current issue is regarding reservation in IIT, I think the amount spent on it is appropriate. 5) I find the criticism section nicely organized and presented. 6) Their is plenty of information in the article regarding why IITs are considered top notch amongst Indian universities - enterance exam, facilities, etc. What you have attempted to object in the second paragraph is very generalized criticism hiding behind big words. --Blacksun 22:56, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- Reply to Anwar. As you might have seen, the Dilbert's cartoon has been removed. The alumni list is not part of the article so problems from it is not admissible here unless it contradicts something stated in the article. Still, I will try to fix it as soon as possible. The "See also" below is a template used over many pages relating to IITs. They have been discussed summarily in the article with relevant link provided. However, the template below clubs them and presents an overall related topics. This is very common and University of Michigan as well as Michigan State University (both FA in education category) use it. Attention is given to Criticism and Reservation as they are important. Don't worry; I have given them only as much attention as is desired in summary style. Most parts of "Reservation" exists as a separate article (Reservation policy in IITs). The pie chart is used to visually depict the contrast and help the reader understand its magnitude quickly. If you think its taking too much space, I can try to reduce its size as long as its clarity is maintained. The article has been copyedited a lot after your comments. Please have a look again and see if vocabulary problem still exists. Now coming to your second paragraph. The IITs aren't very notable in terms of syllabus. I remember sometime back a college tried to replicate IITs success by following its syllabus. It didn't reach anywhere 'coz it failed to realize that the success of IITs are largely due to students from IIT-JEE and infrastructure (both of which have been adequately discussed). Again for pedagogy, IITs are not considered superior. Even if they are, it hasn't been established yet and hence can't be included as of now. The education section is already over-flowing. If you can point specific details missing, I will add them. However, I am not going to do mindless addition of information as it will be a turn off for the reader. Entrance competition is discussed under "Criticisms" which I believe is the correct place to discuss it. -Ambuj Saxena (talk) 07:42, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
- Neutral - I have adjusted the parts of the article I was concerned about and now have no significant problems with the article. The Dilbert image was inappropriate for this article because it contradicted the guidelines of Wikipedia:Fair use. Cedars 04:48, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
- Reply. Thanks for fixing up the article. Is there anything that you request that will get this article your support vote. -Ambuj Saxena (talk) 07:42, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
- From my talk page - If the Dilbert image is added to "Criticism" section where media is criticied (and the strip being taken as example), will it qualify as fair use? Also, for it, I will need to add the sentence about hindsight bias that you deleted as "confusing". I feel its important to highlight the bias people have about IITians. There might be a need to copyedit it to make it clearer, but it is essential. -Ambuj Saxena (talk) 10:34, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
- The short answer is, no it will not qualify as fair use, by the policy Wikipedia has chosen to adopt. Note counterexample four on the Wikipedia:Fair use page that states, "A work of art, not so famous as to be iconic, whose theme happens to be the Spanish Civil War, to illustrate an article on the war." The Dilbert comic is not iconic and it is not being used in a Dilbert-related article therefore it does not qualify for fair use. As for the hindsight bias comment, I am happy for it to be added back provided it is expressed in a clearer fashion. Cedars 12:27, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
- From my talk page - If the Dilbert image is added to "Criticism" section where media is criticied (and the strip being taken as example), will it qualify as fair use? Also, for it, I will need to add the sentence about hindsight bias that you deleted as "confusing". I feel its important to highlight the bias people have about IITians. There might be a need to copyedit it to make it clearer, but it is essential. -Ambuj Saxena (talk) 10:34, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
- Reply. Thanks for fixing up the article. Is there anything that you request that will get this article your support vote. -Ambuj Saxena (talk) 07:42, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
- Update. I have standardised the use of English in the article. Now the language is consistantly British English as per the guidelines. I feel that other criticism have also been addressed, as noted in the replies above. The issue of insufficient citations is also resolved with extensive use of {{inote}}. Since use of "pattern" led to confusion, I rewrote the sentence without using it. The issue of residential facilities is also clarified. The doubtful use of fair use image has been resolved. The template also no longer contains internal article section links. Sections have been given weightage as per their importance. The article does not contain original research (reg. superiority in syllabus/pedagogy). This looks exhaustive. If you still find something missing, please check out the article in edit mode, as there are inotes at a lot of places. Now, I am also giving Nominator Support to this article. -Ambuj Saxena (talk) 13:31, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support. I've gone through and copyedited to remove the last of the non native english usage and some of the unecessary folksy wording, and now I feel I can support this excellent article. - Taxman Talk 14:30, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support Excellent article. Fulfils all the criterion for being an FA. --Srikeit(talk ¦ ✉) 15:08, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support. Great job Ambuj. And after the hard work by User:Spangineer, it's becoming even more awesome! deeptrivia (talk) 04:15, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support. I just found more problems that slipped through Taxman's fine-toothed comb, and I'm sure there are more to be found by a real copyeditor like Tony, but I'm pretty pleased. Great article. --Spangineer[es] (háblame) 04:47, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support after Taxman's copyedit. --Nichalp (logged out) 13:25, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Object. Image:Main Building IIT Roorkee.jpg has been nominated for deletion at Commons because it has a spurious license claim. Image:Nehru laying foundation stone of IITKGP.jpg needs a proper fair use rationale. Image:Iitmconvo.jpg has no source. Image:IIT Bombay Classroom.JPG violates our fair use policy. Template:Indian Institute Of Technology is using an unfree image outside of article space. Jkelly 19:36, 28 May 2006 (UTC)- Reply. I have removed Image:Main Building IIT Roorkee.jpg and used a GFDL-SELF instead of it in the article. Fair-use rationale has been provided for Image:Nehru laying foundation stone of IITKGP.jpg. Image:Iitmconvo.jpg and Image:IIT Bombay Classroom.JPG have been removed without affecting the quality of the article. Template:Indian Institute Of Technology now contains only GFDL images. -Ambuj Saxena (talk) 20:20, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
- Update. I have requested Image:IIT Bombay Classroom.JPG be deleted under {{db-author}}. I can't do that for other problematic images as they weren't uploaded by me. Hence, the page is now free from problematic images and hopefully I have addressed all your concerns (as you have struck out all your comments). -Ambuj Saxena (talk) 20:30, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support.Blnguyen | Have your say!!! 00:52, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support Saravask 06:59, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support Parthi 20:06, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Naruto
Because it is a good article collab, and all the issues brought up in the last 2 noms have been cleared up, I would like to re-resubmit this article.--Zxcvbnm 01:01, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Link to previous nominations
OpposeSupport I feel bad doing this, as I know how hard getting a school through an FAC is, but this needs work. First off, slow down a bit. This nomination should not have been listed before the Good Article Collab tag was taken out, and by manually archiving the previous nom your name was very mis-timestamped (I'm restamping it with this edit). Bullet pointing my points:
Second, I think the History and Enrollment sections should be switched in position, with "School facilities" and "9/11" taken out of the general History section.
- Fixed--Zxcvbnm 23:58, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Third, large sections of "History" are still unsourced, such as the first two paragraphs of the section (that make some large and specific assertions) and some later paragraphs. Ditto for the first paragraph of the facilities section.
- Fixed RossPatterson 00:34, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
- I see that you objected last time that the naming of the school was unsourced. I have added a reference for that as well, although it wasn't easy to find. I guess those of us who studied there just took it for granted, based on the life-sized portrait of Peter Stuyvesant in the lobby. RossPatterson 00:53, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Also, why not source things at least with the material they cover, such as some of the academic details with the course catalog, info on the sections of student publications with a copy of a student publication, etc.
- Fixed - there's a link to a copy of the Math Survey in the Publications section, and a reference to the Parents Handbook section on graduation requirements and to the course catalog in the Academics section. And there have been student publication cover shots in the article for a long time, although it was in an odd location (since moved). RossPatterson 00:34, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Plus, "Political Fire" and "The Broken Escalator" get full subsections for one sentence of text?
- Fixed--Zxcvbnm 23:51, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Records for sports teams in this year do not warrant a spot on wiki unless they were notable as champions of one kind or another.
- Fixed, by Zxcvbnm at 14:09 on 28 May 2006 RossPatterson 01:02, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Finally, the "Faculty Scholarship" section is just very strange indeed. Maybe trim and sub-section it under Stuy people?Staxringold 01:01, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- Fixed - You're right, it wasn't up to the standards of the rest of the article. I've done as you suggested. RossPatterson 04:10, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
- I absolutely agree, and thanks for all the responses. I've changed to support, however, as a sidenote, it's generally not good to strike out other editor's comments. Staxringold talkcontribs 19:37, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
- Object - I agree with the above. Additionally, the lead section needs to be expanded as per the manual of style... three to four paragraphs, not two please. Also, there are {{fact}} tags in the article which need to be taken care of. Furthermore, Bishonen's objections from the previous FAC have not been fully addressed, in that there are unexplained, potentially US-centric terms used with the assumption that the reader is already familiar with them. Fieari 01:48, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- The lede will be improved soon - several of us are working on it. It had been up to par, but Occam's (or somebody's) razor intervened and it got smaller. RossPatterson 04:10, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
- Fixed - There were only a couple of {{fact}}s, and they were easily dealt with. RossPatterson 04:10, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
- Bishonen's comments during the last nomination were very useful in improving the article. Her objections were heard and were acted on, many of them during the nomination, although that didn't save it at the time. Her comments then (summarized by me (RossPatterson)) were as follows:
- You need to try harder to avoid speaking to a US audience exclusively. ... assuming US practices ... American cultural specifics ("varsity") ... acronyms for government bodies (EPA).
- Fixed, maybe - Several of us have worked on this, but it's hard for American eyes and ears to spot these things. If there's anything left, I'd appreciate specific identification of them. RossPatterson 04:10, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
For instance, there's a section about "feeder patterns" (a non-obvious phrase to most non-Americans, surely, but that's a side issue), which turns out to be about the fact there there are no such patterns. At least remove the first "paragraph" in this section. But preferably the whole, because it's weak: it's too short to be a top-level section, and consists of too short paragraphs, and the claim that students "often" use deceptive pracices to get into the school is simply impressionistic—how on earth can I verify it? Source it, please (not from somebody's blog).
- Fixed - Some time ago. RossPatterson 04:10, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
What is "the international FIRST competition"? What's PSAL? Feel free to link or explain words like varsity etc, preferably at first appearance (I just found FIRST linked further down, but that's sort of unhelpful).
- Fixed - Over the last few months. RossPatterson 04:10, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
[H]ere's the big one, over which I am opposing: the many dead or irrelevant links in the references section. The authors seem to be aware of them, dubbing them "Unknown, offline", but, uh, you can't source things in the article to a dead link just because there was one there in January 2005. Links are going to always keep deteriorating, and the idea is that you keep updating them, if you want the article to be one of Wikipedia's best. Please find the new URL, if it exists, or another source, or remove the info in the text. Or at the very least remove the null "reference", but if you take the last option, I think the Reference Police will get you.
- Fixed - Every reference has been verified recently, and all are currently accessible using the URLs in the References section. RossPatterson 04:10, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Oh, incidentally, the account of the centennial celebration is incredibly uninteresting to the general reader. Please keep Stuy Struts and gala dinners and their guest speakers to the inner circle, don't put them in an international encyclopedia.
- Fixed - There's still a bit of centennial stuff, but it's been reduced and moved to the History section where it belongs. RossPatterson 04:10, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
[T]he movie Hackers should only be mentioned in one place.
- Fixed - Some tima ago. RossPatterson 04:10, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
- Hm. When I said Bishonen's complaints weren't covered, I had some specific locations in mind, but now I can't find them. Ah well. I guess the have been convered for the most part then. Still waiting on the lead of course. Additionally, I'm also concerned about the 9/11 section, in particular, the memorial part, since WP:NOT specifically states that wikipedia isn't a memorial. Are those names really encylcopedic for this article in particular? The proximity to the towers and the asbestos fear might be considered notable (though it could be debated), but the names? Fieari 08:50, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
- I de-listified the 9/11 memorial list so that it's less intrusive and in paragraph form, and expanded the lead to include 9/11 (someone cut off the lead before and I don't know why). The asbestos fear was a HUGE debate (everyone against this one guy who kept vandalizing the article with asbestos conspiracy stuff).--Zxcvbnm 19:13, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
- Comment: The captions in this article have been reviewed and meet the criteria for good captions. -Epolk 17:51, 26 May 2006 (UTC) Writing Captions WikiProject
- Support - As if there was any doubt from the foregoing. RossPatterson 04:11, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
- Comment: I'm reserving my judgement at present, as the oppositions are being cleaned up quickly and thoroughly, but as Fieari points out, the lead and the memorial list in the 9/11 paragraph are holding this article back. I'd love to support, and when these matters are dealt with I will not hesitate. On another note, I wait to see how Hopkins School appearing on the main page tomorrow wil affect the nom. Harro5 09:25, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support, and well done to Zxcvbnm and Ross Patterson for this high-qaulity article with lots of great pics. I don't really see the need for the "self-segregation" section, as going on the info of the school paper isn't the best reference, but unless others have an issue with this I'm OK with it. Harro5 07:37, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Oppose - This shouldn't evenm be an article. This school isn't notable. And don't give me the "But there have been four Nobel Prize winners that went there," I don't care! The school itself isn't notable.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Dexter111344 (talk • contribs)- That's not an actionable objection, as subject matter is not part of the FA criteria. Titoxd(?!? - help us) 22:06, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Just a little bit Oppose. This article is really getting there! But since my ears are burning anyway, I'll keep up the tradition and keep complaining, if minorly. What's a double session?And the paragraph beginning "In 1972" is pretty incoherent. I know we're always getting told to avoid short paragraphs, but it's no solution to crowd natural one-sentence items together to make non sequitors like this: "Admission to LaGuardia High School is by audition rather than examination, in keeping with its artistic mission. In the late 1980s and early 1990s, at least four Stuyvesant teachers died from AIDS. In 1992, a new, waterfront building was constructed to house the high school." That's not prose, it's a list laid out as prose.Also, am I alone, and sick, in getting inappropriate associations from the claim that "approximately 43% of the total student body is female"? (Would it be possible to not use the word "body"?) Bishonen | talk 08:09, 1 June 2006 (UTC).
- Fixed How does using the word "body" prevent this article from becoming featured? I will fix the "list paragraph" thing.--Zxcvbnm 03:48, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
- As was suggested by Staxringold above, please let the people who have made objections decide whether to strike them out. The word "body" won't prevent the article from becoming featured. I just thought you might want to avoid the associations to partial gender reassignment surgery (not that there's anything wrong with that). Bishonen | talk 04:31, 3 June 2006 (UTC).
- Since I fixed all your objections (except the "body" thing, that's just ridiculous) is there anything else?--Zxcvbnm 20:00, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
- The objections to the article are withdrawn. I repeat that I'm the one that's supposed to strike them out. Bishonen | talk 23:48, 4 June 2006 (UTC).
- Since I fixed all your objections (except the "body" thing, that's just ridiculous) is there anything else?--Zxcvbnm 20:00, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
- As was suggested by Staxringold above, please let the people who have made objections decide whether to strike them out. The word "body" won't prevent the article from becoming featured. I just thought you might want to avoid the associations to partial gender reassignment surgery (not that there's anything wrong with that). Bishonen | talk 04:31, 3 June 2006 (UTC).
Support a great article, very informative and its also very well referenced--Childzy 12:18, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
I've spent the best part of the last month to expand the article on the Mauthausen-Gusen concentration camp. With enormous help from several Wikipedians (Renata3, Mozzerati, Andreasegde, Mikkalai...) we've created an article that fits the scheme of what an encyclopaedia article should be: it answers the most important questions regarding the concentration camp complex and refers the readers to specific publications for more info. While it is still not ready and there is plenty of room for further improvement, I believe it is as close to Featured Article status as it gets. I also believe that the article has reached a stage of development, where we could either correct minor questions ad nauseam, or simply nominate it to FAC. Which article in Wikipedia is ready anyway? :)
When it comes to specific points listed at Wikipedia:What is a featured article?:
- I believe the article is comprehensive, as it covers all notable aspects of the camp system's operation. It is also factually accurate, as I've done my best to source as many statements as possible and includes almost 100 different sources, some of them used more than once in the text. As the person to write most of it I can't tell whether it is truly neutral, but I believe so. And surely it is stable, as there's been little changes to it recently, except for some minor corrections (I expect that the current process would lead to more corrections though).
- The article complies with Wikipedia's standards, it has a decent lead section explaining the basic concept, a series of headings and sub-headings, and could even easily be divided onto separate sub-articles should this be the wish of the community
- It has lots of images, some of them unique and made specifically for Wikipedia. It also has a lot of red links that were filled with useful content, ranging from mere stubs to entire articles.
Now, my fellow Wikipedians, the ball is on your court :) . //Halibutt 23:44, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support A really amazing and deep article. On a random note, Image:Austria Mauthausen sub-camps.png is quite informative for a single map. The only thing I might maybe consider changing is splitting off the list of notable inmates, but I have a tendancy towards splitting off related lists. Staxringold 01:07, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Weak Object.This article is really deep and imporatnt, and so it pains me to object on such small grounds. The article in its current format has too many lists. These need to be converted into prose. Granted, this is not possible for all lists, but I feel that some lists here could be converted. Other than that, excellent work, and I hope to support soon. RyanGerbil10 04:02, 26 May 2006 (UTC)- Now this puzzles me as most of them were converted from prose for easier reading, following the suggestions during the peer review... //Halibutt 06:43, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- Sorry about that. Staxringold removed some of the lists, and the lists which remain are acceptable and informative. Like I said in my objection, not all of the lists were bad. I now feel enough lists are gone, and remaining lists are good enough, that I will Support. RyanGerbil10 15:47, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- Now this puzzles me as most of them were converted from prose for easier reading, following the suggestions during the peer review... //Halibutt 06:43, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- Strong Support. I think the lists are appropriate to the article and do not think there are too many. This is an excellent article. 11:37, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support
Weak object. This article is more than worthy of FA, however RyanG is right, these lists break everything. While converting them back to prose is not the best solution, perhaps they can be converted tables or better yet, charts??? -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 13:05, 26 May 2006 (UTC)- Let's be constructive then: how could one convert a simple list of companies or the list of methods of extermination into charts? By the length of their name? Tables might be good, but they would contain no additional information, so I doubt such a conversion would change much except for the article's length. Also, Wikipedia:List#Tables specifically states that usage of tables for lists is discouraged. //Halibutt 13:12, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- Hmmm.. I was not at all thinking about those Halibutt... rather about the list of number of inmates and survivors. I think a bar graph with descending sorting would be nice.
- Oh yes, and there is a {{fact}} in one place which should be either sourced or the corresponding paragraph reworked. -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 13:43, 26 May 2006 (UTC)'
- It has been heavily disputed at the talk page and is now removed from the article. //Halibutt 20:30, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- Let's be constructive then: how could one convert a simple list of companies or the list of methods of extermination into charts? By the length of their name? Tables might be good, but they would contain no additional information, so I doubt such a conversion would change much except for the article's length. Also, Wikipedia:List#Tables specifically states that usage of tables for lists is discouraged. //Halibutt 13:12, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- Comment I split-off the List of notable inmates, removing one of the lists these two weak objections are over. I'm going to try and make the short list of survivors by ethnic background into a small table. Staxringold 14:43, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- Update Tabled that list as well. Staxringold 14:53, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- Nice! supporting now. -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 15:03, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- Tabled one more list, just for good measure. Staxringold 15:13, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- And I went a step further and converted the list of survivors of Gusen into a colourful chart. It looked weird as a table, and especially as such a wide one. //Halibutt 22:03, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- Comment. A phrase like although most estimates place it between 122,766 and 320,000 is kinda weird, as 122,766 does not look like an estimate. Maybe change it to between 122,000 and 320,000 or something in that tune? -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 15:03, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- Reply No reason to give up precise data if it comes from a source. Maybe, "most sources place it between"? Staxringold 15:13, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- Something like that maybe. I'm not pushing this particular edit, it's just a bit weird to read as it is. :) -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 18:07, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- The problem with the lower number is that it's also an estimate. It is the body count of all the available death records, but it is also known that it's absolutely incomplete and based on German WWII data, which was commonly forged by the Germans themselves. But let's stick to Staxringold's proposal, it's less specific, but less eye-catching. //Halibutt 20:33, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- Comment: The captions in this article have been reviewed and meet the criteria for good captions. -Epolk 17:47, 26 May 2006 (UTC) Writing Captions WikiProject
- Thanks //Halibutt 11:28, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support the excellent work by Halibutt. The level of referencing is very impressive.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 19:03, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
*Object Image:Mauthausen-survivors.jpg is unsourced. Jkelly 22:02, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
- No it's not. //Halibutt 23:12, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
- Er... it was totally unsourced when I addded that objection. You then removed the unsourced template and added that it was from NARA. I have since found what seems to be the actual source, so it doesn't matter, but note that image sources need at least some modicum of verifiability for their licensing. Jkelly 23:32, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
- I'm 99% sure it was taken from NARA, but as I already pointed out at your talk page their web page is currently down and I can't check it. //Halibutt 01:46, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support. very good article. For some reason, in the "Death toll" section the table and the text are not appearing properly, please attend. Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 08:35, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
- Strong Support. Outstanding work Halibutt et al! I'm impressed not only with the article itself, but that you found the courage and strength to write about this subject in such depth. In dealing with warfare, I write about humanity's inhumanity all the time, yet cannot bring myself to deal with such mega attrocities in any great detail without feeling a pain in my very soul. See Molobo, this is how war attrocities should be delt with here on Wikipedia. Again, great job my friends! NEVER FORGET.--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 16:54, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Another production of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Michigan, this article has gone through some very extensive work, including a comprehensive peer review. Project members will address any comments or concerns. Jtmichcock 19:56, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support - I've looked over this article, and found it to be reasonably comprehensive to my inexpert eye, well written, supported with appropriately licsenced images, without pressing issues, and in general, featured quality. Fieari 20:27, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support Great article. Those guys at Wikiproject Michigan really know what they are doing, between U Michigan, Michigan State, History of Michigan State, Gerald Ford, and that's just from what I happen to have run across.. Staxringold 01:11, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Overall, it looks pretty good, but I oppose for the quote in a box there. Aside from being physically squished in quite a distance from where the quote is discussed in the article, it's inherently POV to set aside one person's opinion in a special box. Also it's not clear at all why this particular quote is so important -- surely lots of people expressed anti-crime opinions, so why single this one out?Tuf-Kat 01:57, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- Comment Because it's a quote about crime in Detroit in a section about crime in Detroit (which is quite a notable issue), by a man who was mayor of Detroit for 20 years and tried (though, it seems, at least in the '80s failed) to fight crime in Detroit? Staxringold 02:02, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- And how does the quotebox inform the reader of any of those things? Did the dope dealers take his advice and leave via Eight Mile Road? You already have lots of good information right there about crime in Detroit. This particular quote is not particularly important. He is already described, crime in Detroit is already described, and his feelings on crime in Detroit are already described. The quotebox goes beyond describing a notable opinion - it presents a notable opinion as though Wikipedia is endorsing it, and thus violates WP:NPOV. Tuf-Kat 02:21, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- Question If the quotebox is removed, will you support? Jtmichcock 02:11, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- I don't know, and that's immaterial. Tuf-Kat 02:21, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- Quotebox has been removed. Jtmichcock 02:27, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- Comment Because it's a quote about crime in Detroit in a section about crime in Detroit (which is quite a notable issue), by a man who was mayor of Detroit for 20 years and tried (though, it seems, at least in the '80s failed) to fight crime in Detroit? Staxringold 02:02, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- Okay then I basically support, but
The see also links should be worked into the article or removed. (or at least black culture of Detroit and Nain Rouge are either important enough to be in the article, or not important enough to be mentioned).- I fixed this.
- I'm really hesitant to actually support based on the references. It appears that all the information comes from various webarticles. For some subjects, that might be okay, but this is a major city with lots of stuff written about it (lots of seemingly good resources in Further reading).
- Many of the publications listed are out of print, and are largely from around the turn of the last century and are out of print. Most current material consists of either photo journals or polemics (see the "Devil's Night" book). The Detroit News series is highly respected and references the earlier works with updated information. Fortunately, the series contains unbiased, contemporary accounts missing from the bookshelves (check out the literacy entry to get some idea of the problem). Jtmichcock 15:58, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
- External links seem bloated
- Tuf-Kat 14:57, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
- Alright, weak support. I'd still like to see the external links trimmed and better referencing. If the stuff in Further reading is out of print, why put it there? Why not list books that people can find? I'll grant that Detroit News is a good source, but that's still only one -- for a topic like this, there should be a number of good sources like that. Tuf-Kat 18:13, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
- I pared the links down a bit. Jtmichcock 19:16, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
- Alright, weak support. I'd still like to see the external links trimmed and better referencing. If the stuff in Further reading is out of print, why put it there? Why not list books that people can find? I'll grant that Detroit News is a good source, but that's still only one -- for a topic like this, there should be a number of good sources like that. Tuf-Kat 18:13, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
- Comment: The captions in this article have been reviewed and meet the criteria for good captions. -Epolk 17:43, 26 May 2006 (UTC) Writing Captions WikiProject
- Support. Another nice job by Wikiproject Michigan! PDXblazers 00:41, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support. Really some excellent work done on this article. I'm sure they've more than once thought I was a pain in the rear in my comments pointing out needed changes. I'd always like to see more high quality books used as sources because of the greater level of editorial oversight they can get, but the volume of research done for this article helps make up for that. - Taxman Talk 14:50, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support Some images down the bottom could become less cluttered. Other than that, excellent article. michael talk 10:38, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
- I moved some pics and lowered the size on another to address the clutter. Jtmichcock 11:43, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support Anonymous_anonymous_Have a Nice Day 13:59, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support - really well done CoolGuy 15:19, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support - As a Detroit citizen, I really want this article featured. Karrmann 00:16, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
I nominated this article because it is bigger than most featured articles and it has a huge variety of links and info. General Eisenhower • (at war or at peace) (History of War) 19:29, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
- Comment Image:Grimy.jpg needs a Fair use rationale, and a less fannish image description. Jkelly 19:32, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
- I'd recommend a peer review here - no references, lots of trivia, etc. RN 19:35, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
- Oppose per RN. Lists of trivia should be converted into brilliant prose, statements should be sourced, lists should be spun off into daughter articles or converted into prose, audience reaction should be taken into consideration more so than is done, etc. Peer review would be very good for this article. User:The Disco King (not signed in) 204.40.1.129 20:11, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
- The captions in this article have been reviewed and meet the criteria for good captions. -Epolk 17:37, 26 May 2006 (UTC) Writing Captions WikiProject
- Strong Oppose. Most of the article is trivia and list. No references at all. Please go for a Peer Review first. -Ambuj Saxena (talk) 09:55, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
- Weak Oppose Its a good start. Improvements can be made to this article. You can start by adding references to it. I'll change my vote to Support if there's referencing. Anonymous_anonymous_Have a Nice Day 13:57, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
- Strong Oppose- A nice article but needs much help to be feaures article. Refrencing is a very good idea.
Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Torchic
Partial self-nomination. 1980s rubber monster movie. When I first started editing this the trivia section was the longest. That information has been reorganized and the article has been expanded and referenced. Has undergone a peer review and most concerns were addressed (the music section is still a bit short, but unless unreliable sources are used it's about as big as it can be). CanadianCaesar Cæsar is turn’d to hear 05:28, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
- Comment Good article. The link to The Gremlins (band) should be in the dab-hat, not as a "See Also". Jkelly 05:48, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support. Good work. RyanGerbil10 05:49, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support All my concerns at the peer review have been dealth with. Nice work. Cvene64 06:26, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support Looks good to me. RN 09:17, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
- Object For the following reasons:
- Peacock terms should be avoided in preference of compelling writing. Example:
- Accomplished filmmaker Steven Spielberg was the film's executive producer. Accomplished is an unnecessary adjective.
- The plot to Gremlins is extremely simple. The Plot section does not need this much exposition. It should be trimmed to the following outline:
- Billy gets mogwai.
- Mogwai gets wet.
- Mogwais eat after midnight.
- Slapstick violence ensues.
- Gremlins get blown up, Spike disolves in a pile of goo.
- The Pre-production section doesn't disclose very much compelling information, and what it does have, it doesn't expand on. Why did Spielberg oppose the McDonald's scene?
- The Casting section is badly worded and confusing, especially the second sentence.
- The same goes for the Special effects section. Three sentences are used where one would suffice to explain that many puppets were used for Gizmo and they were unreliable.
- The prose throughout is pedestrian.
- Many of the referneces link to the wrong footnotes. Many of the references don't seem to be about Gremlins.
- Peacock terms should be avoided in preference of compelling writing. Example:
In conclusion: it's not ready, it needs work. -- Malber (talk • contribs) 13:44, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
- If I read it in order, the casting section makes more sense. Perhaps it does need tweaking though. RN 19:25, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
- The plot is detailed because much of the information there is necessary to understanding the rest of the article. We need to know who Mrs. Deagle is to understand Ebert's review, we need to know a gremlin got zapped in the microwave to understand PG-13, etc. Spielberg, as far as I am aware, did not oppose the McDonald's scene. The special effects, I thought, was something people would be interested in; it goes beyond the puppets to talk about the giant head. Unreliable how? Information is provided. All references lead to the right footnotes. Perhaps you are confused because the references are combined- thus, "2" appears throughout the article. Many references are not about Gremlins because a search with both JSTOR and Academic Search Premier brings up the articles I used in this article. This article reflects the fullest extent of the academic discussion, which may not be much, but scholarly opinions are important. CanadianCaesar Cæsar is turn’d to hear 21:10, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Opposefor a minor and fixable issue. Inappropriate use of fair-use image in lead. Please use a low-resolution image per the fair-use policy. -Ambuj Saxena (talk) 10:03, 28 May 2006 (UTC)- Wouldn't my old version [1] be low resolution? CanadianCaesar Cæsar is turn’d to hear 18:20, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
- Well, I've reverted to the lower resolution version. Also removed the "accomplished filmmaker" per above. CanadianCaesar Cæsar is turn’d to hear 07:16, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
- I tried making some more adjustments to the casting section. Other than that I think the comments about "compelling information" are subjective. CanadianCaesar Cæsar is turn’d to hear 07:07, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
- Changed to Support. But please insert {{endspoiler}} at the required place. -Ambuj Saxena (talk) 08:34, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
- I tried making some more adjustments to the casting section. Other than that I think the comments about "compelling information" are subjective. CanadianCaesar Cæsar is turn’d to hear 07:07, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
- Well, I've reverted to the lower resolution version. Also removed the "accomplished filmmaker" per above. CanadianCaesar Cæsar is turn’d to hear 07:16, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
- Wouldn't my old version [1] be low resolution? CanadianCaesar Cæsar is turn’d to hear 18:20, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support Looks good Tobyk777 07:09, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
- support Very good article. Karrmann 21:41, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
- Support The gremlins have always given me the heebie jeebies and I hated the movie, but the article looks good. HeyNow10029 00:04, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
This is a good article. It is stable, and it describes a seminal work in comics in a clear, concise manner without sacrificing information. (This is technically a self nomination, though my contributions to this article have been minor.)--DCAnderson 00:02, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Object
- Lead is too short
- I added a bit.--DCAnderson 03:06, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
- Short quotes shouldn't use blockquote
- I got rid of all the 2 line or less block quotes.--DCAnderson 02:08, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
- References in other works should be prose, rather than a collection of sentences about the same topic
I don't understand.--DCAnderson 02:14, 25 May 2006 (UTC) Fixed.--DCAnderson 03:11, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
- All fair use images need source information and fair use rationales, some of the fair use images are unnecessary as they do not add signiicantly to the article.
- I've given a rationale for the use of all images.--DCAnderson 02:48, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
- Discussion of the art seems to be lacking
- Started a section for this.--DCAnderson 03:41, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
- I would suggest merging the film adaptation into the merchandising section since a since these two sentences do not require a section of their own
Copied it over, I'll csd the stub later.--DCAnderson 02:09, 25 May 2006 (UTC) Whoops, misunderstood what you said. It should be good now.--DCAnderson 02:38, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
- Has there been any academic commentary on the Watchmen?
- A Google search of .edu domains[2] seems to turn up some good stuff. I'll start integrating.--DCAnderson 01:49, 25 May 2006 (UTC) Added first of these to art section.--DCAnderson 03:41, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
- Ex links should follow the references according to the MoS.
"some of the fair use images are unnecessary as they do not add signiicantly to the article."
- Examples?--DCAnderson 01:56, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
- Radioactive man.--Peta 02:06, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Allright Peta, I think I've taken care of most of your concerns.--DCAnderson 03:53, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support - recent additions have cleared up my questions about comprehensiveness. --Peta 22:32, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
- The captions in this article have been reviewed and meet the criteria for good captions. -Epolk 16:57, 25 May 2006 (UTC) Writing Captions WikiProject
- Comment -- do we think that someone entering "Watchmen" into our search box would be looking for a comic book? Jkelly 18:20, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
- This should take care of it.[3]--DCAnderson 02:57, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- Perfect, thanks. Jkelly 22:05, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
- Still not quite ready to support. I did some quick copyediting. I'm a little confused by the pirates section. I understand that the pirates section is a comic book within a comicbook, but how important is it? Jkelly 20:15, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
- It's pretty important, almost a quarter of the narrative is throgh that comic.--DCAnderson 20:21, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
- Allright, well now that I'm flipping through, "a quarter" might be an overestimate on my part, but it is still a pretty big part. Out of a 12 issue miniseries, the story of the Black Freighter plays a prominent role in issues 3, 5, 8, 10, and 11. So almost half the issues. There is even a four page article in issue 5 about the fictional author of the Tales of the Black Freighter. The "author" even plays a small role in the plot of Watchmen. I know it seems kind of weird, but that "story within a story" is a big part of Watchmen.--DCAnderson 20:42, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
- Okay. I'll give it another read-through. Jkelly 23:21, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
- Awesome, thanks :)DCAnderson 23:23, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
- In the "Counterparts" section of "Characters", is that us making the comparison? I looked at the reference given, and it gives a one-to-one relationship between the Watchmen characters and the older characters, but we have this "...with elements of..." material in there. Where did that come from? Jkelly 23:31, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
- A lot of it seemed to be Original Research which I've now removed. The rest can be traced to an Alan Moore interview that I added as a cite.--DCAnderson 23:42, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
- In the "Counterparts" section of "Characters", is that us making the comparison? I looked at the reference given, and it gives a one-to-one relationship between the Watchmen characters and the older characters, but we have this "...with elements of..." material in there. Where did that come from? Jkelly 23:31, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
- Awesome, thanks :)DCAnderson 23:23, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
- It's pretty important, almost a quarter of the narrative is throgh that comic.--DCAnderson 20:21, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
- Still not quite ready to support. I did some quick copyediting. I'm a little confused by the pirates section. I understand that the pirates section is a comic book within a comicbook, but how important is it? Jkelly 20:15, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
- Perfect, thanks. Jkelly 22:05, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support. Thanks for being so responsive, and for the good work. Jkelly 00:37, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
- Object non-comprehensive: e.g. where is the "Themes" section? see The Illuminatus! Trilogy as a guide. Zzzzz 11:32, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
- I'll try to see what I can do, but from what I've been able to get from the talk page, this has been a problem in the past, as it is hard to find secondary sources who have analyzed the themes in Watchmen. So far it seems that when a themes section is created, it usually gets deleted as Original Research. I'll work on something though.--DCAnderson 16:46, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
- still needs to be fleshed out: the themes should be alaborated on more, and only one pgraph on determinism? additionally, article contains some poor writing e.g. "Such graffiti occurs in the Watchmen universe upon the proposition of The Keene Act, depicting the change of public opinion towards the practice of vigilantism.". needs an outsider to copyedit whole article. plot summary should not go beyond 5 pgraphs. "keene act" section should not exist - should be merged into plot summary (without going over 5 pgraphs). headings should not be wikilinks. break artwork section into at least 2 pgraphs. why the big gap between "reception" and "criticism" sections? why is there a hardcoded colour in the infobox "creative team" of the infobox? lead should summarize the entire article. there are too many sub-sections, making the TOC daunting - try merging the many one-pgraph sections together into larger multi-pgraph sections. fairuse images do not have fairuse rationale. dont capitalize heading either ("Reception and Acclaim"). in Editions, give dates for all the releases from the 12-part comic onwards. there should be more on the process of authorship: when did alan moore start writing it, how long did it take to write, how was the writing experience, the drawing experience? finally, what about the smiley face becoming the acid house logo? other works that were inspired by watchmen? did moore ever go back to the themes explored in watchmen in later work? Zzzzz 11:00, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
- Hello. I believe your issues with the themes section have been addressed as I added information on hero worship, fascism, and expanded the determinism section and mentioned the running themes throughout other books Moore has written. In addition, I believe DC has addressed the other problems with the article. Tombseye 19:06, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
- still needs to be fleshed out: the themes should be alaborated on more, and only one pgraph on determinism? additionally, article contains some poor writing e.g. "Such graffiti occurs in the Watchmen universe upon the proposition of The Keene Act, depicting the change of public opinion towards the practice of vigilantism.". needs an outsider to copyedit whole article. plot summary should not go beyond 5 pgraphs. "keene act" section should not exist - should be merged into plot summary (without going over 5 pgraphs). headings should not be wikilinks. break artwork section into at least 2 pgraphs. why the big gap between "reception" and "criticism" sections? why is there a hardcoded colour in the infobox "creative team" of the infobox? lead should summarize the entire article. there are too many sub-sections, making the TOC daunting - try merging the many one-pgraph sections together into larger multi-pgraph sections. fairuse images do not have fairuse rationale. dont capitalize heading either ("Reception and Acclaim"). in Editions, give dates for all the releases from the 12-part comic onwards. there should be more on the process of authorship: when did alan moore start writing it, how long did it take to write, how was the writing experience, the drawing experience? finally, what about the smiley face becoming the acid house logo? other works that were inspired by watchmen? did moore ever go back to the themes explored in watchmen in later work? Zzzzz 11:00, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
WeakStrong Support--The article seems more extensive than a lot of other featured articles and is pretty complete and I obsessively read Watchmen and Watchmen-related stuff myself.The only criticism I can think of is that the references could be longer and more extensive.Tombseye 04:14, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
- Allright, I've started a "Themes" section. Let's see how well it does.--DCAnderson 04:46, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Object. First three paragraphs (in header) all begin with the same word. Some minor formatting issues. Also, a professional encyclopedia article would paraphrase rather than uses execcess of block quotes. Certainly better than many other Wikipedia articles, but still not quite FAC quality ready. --FuriousFreddy 06:35, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
- I added some variation to the first three paragraphs. Could you be more specific as to what the "minor formatting issues" are? I'll look into paraphrasing some of the quotes.--DCAnderson 13:48, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
- I've paraphrased some of the less interesting quotes. Do you think we should try to get rid of all the quotes? Are there some which you specifically think we should address?--DCAnderson 14:58, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
- You should try to get rid of all of the quotes, or, at least, not use such large blocks of them so often. The "minor formatting issues" involve images being used that are positioned so that they distort or interrupt the flow of the page. Also, the chart i nthe middle of the page about who the Watchmen were based upon should be converted to prose. --FuriousFreddy 16:07, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
- I think the table is probably for the best, because in prose form we would get a really repetitive "A is based on B, C is based on D, E is based on F" kind of thing. I'll check the other things.--DCAnderson 16:20, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
- I've played around with the images, and they seem to look ok on my browser in a "small" window. I'll start digging into the quotes.--DCAnderson 16:38, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
- There are no more blockquotes now.--DCAnderson 17:00, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
- A key to good writinhg is variation; taking a paragraph with sentences that could be formatted as a "repetitive 'A is based on B, C is based on D, E is based on F'" thing ,and making it not that. I copyedited that paragraph some. Changing vote ot 'Support; although I must note that the sub-article Chapters in Watchmen is in dire need of cleanup and rewriting (in fact, it may not be needed at all). --FuriousFreddy 17:58, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
- There are no more blockquotes now.--DCAnderson 17:00, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
- You should try to get rid of all of the quotes, or, at least, not use such large blocks of them so often. The "minor formatting issues" involve images being used that are positioned so that they distort or interrupt the flow of the page. Also, the chart i nthe middle of the page about who the Watchmen were based upon should be converted to prose. --FuriousFreddy 16:07, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
WeakStrong Support. This article has improved markedly in quality since the FA process started, something which makes me wonder if it's quite there yet (is it really stable, does it still have a lot it could improve rapidly?). It's just good enough now for me to support it, but with some reservations as to the structure and quality of the prose. In particular, I think some more attention needs to be given to the (new) Themes section:
- In places the prose is too conceptually dense and hard to comprehend (too many psychology references, not enough clear English explanations)
- In other places it just plain needs some careful rewriting to make it "brilliant" (I found the start of the section — As previously noted, Nite Owl asks, during a riot, "Who are we protecting them from?" to which the Comedian responds "from themselves." — to be quite clumsy, there surely must be a better way of introducing the section).
- I'd recommend sub-sections for each theme to break this section up into a more easily-digestible structure (e.g. Determinism, Megalomania etc as sub-sections).
- Much kudos to the significant editors on this one, you have and are continuing to do a wonderful job. — Estarriol talk 22:28, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
- I will fix the clumsy sentences. We tried the subsections which others didn't want so we went with how it currently stands. I'll reduce the psyche references as well. Thanks. Tombseye 22:37, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
- Okay, fixed the sentence (and others I could find) and reduced psyche references and dense material as per request. The article's not unstable so much as we've (DC and I) been trying to address people's concerns about the article to make it the best featured article it can be. It has no history of instability and has not been the subject of edit wars or anything of that sort. Hope that clears things up. Thanks. Tombseye 23:02, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
- Yet more excellent work, Tombseye. The themes section is, for relatively small cuts and changes, now much more readable — and brilliant — prose. I take your point on stability, thank you for reminding me why that is sometimes a concern, and when it is not. Strong Support now – this article isn't perfect, but perfection is not the requirement, every article can always be improved. This would make an excellent front page article on one of the most historically important and groundbreaking pieces of modern literature, from a central figure of the modern writing scene. Superb work. — Estarriol talk 09:27, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
- Okay, fixed the sentence (and others I could find) and reduced psyche references and dense material as per request. The article's not unstable so much as we've (DC and I) been trying to address people's concerns about the article to make it the best featured article it can be. It has no history of instability and has not been the subject of edit wars or anything of that sort. Hope that clears things up. Thanks. Tombseye 23:02, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Support: This is definetly one of the most comprehensive and well written articles on wikipedia about a Graphic Novel. In my opinion, many of the previous concerns about themes, scope, and copyediting, etc, have been addressed to an acceptable level during this FA review. Good stuff.--P-Chan 23:12, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
- Correction: Upon making a fine-tooth inspection, I've noticed copyedit issues that still need to be addressed. (Thus, I've downgraded my rating down to Weak Support. Once these are solved, I'll switch back to support again. Sorry about the switch guys.--P-Chan 05:09, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
- I did some major edits and copyediting to fix the article. Let me know if are okay. Thanks. Tombseye 06:03, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
- Looks like we're good. I'll change my vote back to support.--P-Chan 07:40, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
- I did some major edits and copyediting to fix the article. Let me know if are okay. Thanks. Tombseye 06:03, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/UEFA Cup
Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/United States Navy
After the first failed nomination (Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Pericles/Archive1) many things happened. The article was rewritten once again by Druworos and me, but it faced a failed GA nomination. Me and Konstable, who was the one who did not pass the article, initiated further improvements and about a week ago the article easily passed GA nomination. Pericles in now rated as an A-Class article by three Wikiprojects (Wikipedia:WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome, Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history and Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography) and remains, of caurse, a GA. The article has until now gone through four peer-reviews: 2 thorough peer-reviews (Wikipedia:Peer review/Pericles and Wikipedia:Peer review/Pericles/Archive 1), 1 peer-review by the WikiProject Military history (Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Peer review/Pericles) and 1 peer-review by the WikiProject Biography (Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography/Peer review/Pericles). I thought it was the right time for this second nomination.--Yannismarou 11:33, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
- This article had 43KB of prose as of 22 August 2006
- Strong support. This is an outstanding article! -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 12:45, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
- Comment. I like the combined use of Cite.php and the conventional reference label approach to separate footnotes and references. However, just scanning, I did find what looked like the work of a gremlin ("literary" was misspelt "literally"). Does anyone have time to independently copyedit this article? - Samsara (talk • contribs) 14:03, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
- This was obviously a typo. Although I've gone through the article again and again for such typos, it is inevitable to miss something.--Yannismarou 14:29, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
- The article has been twice copy-edited during this candidacy from Robth and Konstable. I hope these copy-edits are sufficient.--Yannismarou 11:31, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
- This was obviously a typo. Although I've gone through the article again and again for such typos, it is inevitable to miss something.--Yannismarou 14:29, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
- Support. Rlevse 01:54, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
- Support. Well done, --Riurik 03:42, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
- Support, all the issues from the previous nomination and the various peer reviews look to have been resolved. Kirill Lokshin 04:07, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
- Support, a great read! Gaius Cornelius 09:28, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
- Comment. The timeline is too wide and takes a lot of space. Could you fix it? CG 11:11, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
- I thought to hide the timeline with a navbar and remove it to "See also section", as Kirill had proposed in a previous peer-review. Do you thing that's better? If you think so, listen to that: The problem is that I probably do something wrong with the navbar and, when I do hide the timeline (replacing: div class="NavContent" style="display:none"; font-size:normal; style=text-align:center" with: div class="NavContent" style="display:none; font-size:normal; text-align:left"), I then have to hit twice on "hide" (and not on "show") in order to see the timeline. That is why I haven't yet made the edit. What I may do wrong? Am I typing something wrong?--Yannismarou 15:20, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
Reluctant Object. This is tremendously well researched, and that alone almost brings me to support it. There are, however, a variety of problems that need to be addressed here. A list of issues I spotted follows; in several cases, I've just picked out examples of things that need to be fixed throughout:- Odd cause-effect statements. From the lead: "Eager to reinforce Athenian intellectual prowess, he prompted an ambitious building project"; I don't understand how Pericles's desire to "reinforce intellectual prowess" led to the public works program, which is most commonly cited as an example of a progam intended to boost civic pride and increase employment. Several of Pericles's actions are attributed to his intrinsic characteristics, which strikes me as a little overly speculative. Someone needs to go through and make sure that all the cause-effect statements in the article are accurately describing the relationship in question.
- Balance of historical opinions: The arguments of critics of Athenian democracy is well presented, particularly in the case of Paparrigopoulos. There is, however, an equally active body of historians defending the Athenian radical democracy and its creators; Donald Kagan, used here as a source, certainly ranks high among that group, and others can be found easily.
- Accuracy issues: Some of these are just omissions of relevant events. The Peace of Callias, for instance, ambiguous and tricky issue though it is, should be discussed; the events in the Aegean in the late 450s (revolts in the empire, the Egyptian disaster, etc.) Pericles's leadership during the turmoilsome period from the Athenian defeat in Egypt to the mid 440s seems to have played a critical role in the establishment of the Athenian Empire as it existed in the 430s, so a fuller discussion of the events of that period seems appropriate.
- About the peace of Callias a few comments: We do not even know if it really existed. Wade-Gray is the first historian of our century who believed in its existence and Badian has published a study as well. But most researchers do not recognize it. And if it existed indeed what was Pericles' role? Why have no clue! All I can write is mere speculations and Badian's hypothesis that Pericles broke the Peace in 450, although it was agreed in 463. You're right about the Egyptian disaster. It is a serious omission. My only fear is that the article is becoming gigantic! More and more and more information. I'll try to do my best.--Yannismarou 08:14, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
- I'm also puzzled by the claim that "Even after fining him, the Athenians remained true to the Periclean strategy and did not depart from it until long after his death."; this would be an unusual assessment of Athenian strategy in the 428-425 period, which was marked by the rise of aggressive leaders who broke with Pericles's strategy in a number of cases.
- These aggressive leaders did not radically alter the Periclean Grand Strategy and they avoided over-extension. That is what Platias-Coliopoulos point out. This happened later after 415 BC. I quote from Platias-Coliopoulos:"It therefore becomes evident that the Atheniasn lost the war only when they dramatically reversed the Periclean grand strategy that explicitely disdained further conquests". And I quote from C. Gray: "For Sparta to succeed, Athens had to be weakened by plague, had to suffer lossed in men and prestige in the expedition to Sicily (415-413 BC) and ... then had to commit major errors in lack of vigilance in the naval campaign for control of the Dardanelles". Hence, the emphasis is in the period after 415 BC. After all, until the end of the Archidamian War Athens had the upper hand. Some modifications of the Periclean Strategy until then donot constitute a radical change. The Athenians did not attempt conquests in foreign countries, for istance. I think this is a weel-argued a citated claim, based on researchers' argumentations and I donot see why it is unusual or why it should be changed.--Yannismarou 07:42, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
- Language. Odd and awkward word choice at a number of points: "an ambivalent symbolism", "defalcation", "Thucydides predicates that..." and a number of other odd word or phrasing choices are scattered throughout. Awkward or incorrect word order is also a significant issue. Someone needs to go through this and pick all these out.
- So that's what jumps out at me. This is very good as a whole, and I'm confident that these issues can be addressed. --RobthTalk 21:07, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
- Response to Robth. I've already made some comments on Robth's remarks. After having implemented some of his suggestions, I'd like to give a more thorough answer point by point:
- You mention the cause-effect statement of the lead; hence I'll comment on that. I donot know what other speculative statements you find, but I donot think I attribute Pericles' actions to his intrinsic characteristics. As far as the lead is concerned, I rephrased and citated it, although I'm not absolutely right with you. Pericles did not promote art only for the reasons you mention. There was a real interest to further reinforce the intellectual brilliance of his city.
- I added Kagan's comments concernig Pericles' reforms and also Samons' reasoning for his actions. I want just to point out that, even as it was, the comments were not one-sided. One paragraph was devoted to Pericles' arguments and one to Cimon's (-oligarchs') point of view. Paparrigopoulos is critical towards Pericles only there. Hence, only two sentences ("According to Paparrigopoulos, history vindicated Cimon, since Athens, after Pericles' death, sunk in the abyss of political turmoil and demagogy. Paparrigopoulos maintains that an unprecedented regression descended upon the city, whose glory perished due to the anterior populist policies of Pericles.") consist a criticism of Pericles on behalf of Paparrigopoulos. All his other comments give an explanation of his actions, just like Samons. Anyway, I hope the relevant section seems now more balanced. I also mentioned Kagan's belief that Cimon adapted himself to the new conditions and promoted a political marriage between Periclean liberals and Cimonian conservatives.I just want to mention that during the previous nomination I faced the opposite criticism: That I am POV in favor of Pericles! I feel confused!
- I've said a few things about the peace of Callias. I just want to insist on the fact that we donot even now if such a thing existed and what was Pericles role. Grote, Wade-Gery, Gomme, Badian say it existed. Vlachos, Walker, Wilamowitz, Pohlman, Mayer and Schwartz say it did not exist! Ancient writers contemporary to Pericles do not mention it. Isocrates mentions it but Demosthenes doubts about it! Where is the historical reality?! We donot know! Anyway, I mentioned Badian's disputed claims and his reference to Pericles and I also mentioned Kagan's claim that Pericles used Callias as a symbol of Athenian unity.
I also mentioned (in the section "First Peloponnesian War") the Egyptian disaster and its result as well as the debated role of Pericles. Kagan and Aird believe that Pericles initiated the excursion both in Cyprus and Egypt, while Beloch hold Cimon responsible for both decisions. In the section "Military achievements" I added Kagan's belief that Pericles' vehement insistence that there should be no diversionary expeditions during the Peloponnesian War may well have resulted from the bitter memory of the Egyptian campaign, which he allegedly had supported. Thereby, I connect the devestation in Egypt with the later policies of Pericles.
During the late 450s I do not have in mind any important revolt in the League. The revolts in Euboea, Thebes, Samos and Byzantium are all mentioned. I am not aware of any other arousal in the Aegean against the Athenians during this period. After all, I created an article about the First Peloponnesian War and all the events of this war are in detail mentioned there. I think Pericles' role is adequately developped and more details will harm the whole article. I also added (in section "Prelude of the Wr") Ehrenberg's opinion that another fact that may well have influenced Pericles' stance just before the eruption of the Peloponnesian War was the fear that revolts in the empire might spread if Athens showed herself weak. The coinage decree is also mentiones and, hence, I think there is a clear image of the Athenian empire in the 430s.
I also clarified the events concerning the revolt of Byzantium and the Pontic Excursion (Section "Samian War"). I think that the wording is also better now.- You're quite right about the doubts about the Peace of Callias, but its massive significance if it did exist would seem to me to justify mentioning the possibility. Events of this time period are all but impossible to pin down, and it's best to just acknowledge that. I would mention the possibility of the peace, note that there are scholars on both sides of the question of its existence, and devote a sentence or two to explaining how it would fit in to the overall picture of this period.
- As far as revolts in the empire, I was referring to the revolts of Miletus and Erythrae in 454/3, which continued down to 452/1 or thereabouts. These aren't mentioned in the ancient sources, but have been established based on fragmentary inscriptions and the Athenian tribute-quota lists. These, along with the Egyptian disaster, have been cited as possible pretexts for withdrawing the treasury from Delos, and should probably be mentioned. Keeping the article short is a good goal, but it's important not to omit significant details of this critical period of Pericles's leadership.
- The treatment of this period is coming along, but it isn't quite there yet. The magnitude of the Egyptian disaster is far from clear in the current text, and the crisis of the empire in the early 440s isn't readily apparent. --RobthTalk
- I've already explained why I regard Platias-Coliopoulos' position as basically correct. Nevertheless, I made clear that this is their opinion and I also referenced the altera pars, stating Ehrenberg's remark that the Athenians engaged in several aggressive actions soon after Pericles' death. I hope that now this topic is clarified.
- That looks good now; my opinions on the subject have been largely shaped by Kagan, who considers the Aetolian campaign and Pylos/Sphacteria to be departures from the Periclean strategy, so I was initially surprised to see that statement; but, as I said, looks good now.
- I rephrased all the mentioned "awkward word choice". "Defalcation" was really wrong-"embezzlement" or "misappropriation" are the right legal terms. I also tried to make better a few other points in terms of prose. I hope it's now better!
I hope I have resolved most of the things that obliged Robth to Reluctantly Object. I hope he can now, at least, Reluctantly support! - I'm just kidding!--Yannismarou 13:51, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
- I'm still not quite ready to support, as my interspersed comments above indicate. I still have some qualms about the prose, but this may be a classic case of {{sofixit}}; I think I'll have time to copyedit it myself tonight. This is definitely coming along, so keep up the good work. --RobthTalk 16:43, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
- OK! In terms of content I think I now fully understand your concerns. These are my comments:
- I'm still not quite ready to support, as my interspersed comments above indicate. I still have some qualms about the prose, but this may be a classic case of {{sofixit}}; I think I'll have time to copyedit it myself tonight. This is definitely coming along, so keep up the good work. --RobthTalk 16:43, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
- 1. I made clear Athens' disaster in Egypt and citated these remarks( Section:"First Peloponnesian War"). I also mentioned the possible connection of this defeat with the transfer of the treasury (Section:"Athens' rule over its alliance"). I think this topic is covered now.
- 2. I mentioned and citated the revolts in Miletus and Erythrae. I subsequently emphasized on the turmoil in the empire after the defeat in Egypt and the tension in the Aegean, using Kagan and Sealey as a source. I also mentioned the possible connection of these revolts with the transfer of the treasury (Section:"Athens' rule over its alliance"). I hope that this topic is also covered now.
- 3. As far as the prose is concerned, I'd just like to mention that most users agree that the article is "outstanding" and "a great read". My point is that I believe we've already achieved a very good level of prose. Nevertheless, I donot argue that I'm infallible and, hence, I'm sure that your contribution in terms of prose improvements would be valuable; especially, from a person who has already nominated 3 FA, among which one of my favorites and a source of inspiration, Epaminondas. After all, I think that it would be better for the arrticle to attempt these minor additional improvements instead of turning it down as a FA. That is why I feel convinced that you will indeed choose the first solution and you'll make the prose improvements you regard as necessary, so as to express your support.--Yannismarou 18:20, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
- I just gave the article a run-through, focusing mostly on prose issues but also clarifying a few things and tweaking the presentation of the First Peloponnesian War a bit. This was a very good article at the start of this review and has improved even further during the review; I'm very pleased to give it my enthusiastic support. Superb work. --RobthTalk 06:08, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks, pal!--Yannismarou 06:54, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
- Support Great article. --mav 01:52, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Strongly ObjectSupport While quoting from Thucydides' orations is a neat idea, they should not be described as Pericles' without qualification. Septentrionalis 20:29, 22 August 2006 (UTC)- English usage should be followed in the use of names; for example, Josiah Ober should be spelled out.
- Similarly, Areopagus should be so spelled; this is the English Wikipedia. Septentrionalis 20:37, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
- How should the quotes be described? Your proposition? I describe them as Pericles', but in parenthesis I point out that they come from Thucydides' work. After all, the whole story about the authorship of Pericles' orations in Thucydides is described in the section "Oratorical Skill".
Thanks a lot for informing me this is the English Wikipedia. This was a valuable information. Realising that I may avoid exile to the Βικιπαιδεία. In the article Areopagus of the English Wikipedia, first line, it says Areopagus or Areios Pagos. Isn't this the English Wikipedia as well?- I'll correct the names and Areios Pagos as well (which redirects to Areopagus by the way) tomorrow morning.
But are these issues so important to justify an absolute objection with no further qualification of the article?! I'm astonished. I respect the well-grounded and creative criticism, like this of Robth, but this one no! - Anyway ... As far as the quotes are concerned? What exactly would satisfy you?--Yannismarou 21:00, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
- If I had an obvious solution, I might have imposed it. The present text is actively misleading. Perhaps you should unwind a little and let other people think on it; and do read WP:OWN. I'm sure this will be a featured article; it's not quite there yet. Septentrionalis 21:14, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
- I have implemented a possible solution to the attribution issue, and have changed Areios Pagos to Areopagus (Sepentrionalis is right that this the common English usage). Does this way of solving the attribution problem look good to everyone? --RobthTalk 04:21, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
- Septentrionalis, Yannismarou has done most of the work on the article, but there have been other people working on this article - including me a couple of weeks ago when I did some major work on POV-language and balance issues (which caused it to fail the first FAC). I never had a feeling that Yannismarou was ever trying to own the article.--Konstable 04:29, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
- Regarding Septentrionalis' issue with "spelling out" names, I have went through them all and have expanded first names in all the first time a person is cited, and just left last names for any subsequent citations of the same person. What do you think of that?--Konstable 05:39, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
- I tried to further clarify the attribution issue, by rephrasing the ends of the quotes like that: "Pericles' Funeral Oration as recorded by Thucydides, (II, 37)" or "Pericles' Third Oration as recorded by Thucydides, (II, 37)". Is Robth and everybody else happy with this suggestion? By the way, what Robth and Konstable did, it could easily be done by Septentrionalis, instead of objecting. I read WP:OWN. Now I suggest you also read {{sofixit}}. I strongly believe that all the concerns of Septentrionalis mentioned are now addressed:
- 1. The quotes of Thucydides are described as Pericles' with qualification: A further note is added by Robth in all the quotes and clarifies that "Thucydides records several speeches which he attributes to Pericles; whether the exact words are Pericles' is uncertain." Robth and I rephrased the end of the quotes as I already mentioned ("Pericles' Funeral Oration as recorded by Thucydides, (II, 37)" or "Pericles' Third Oration as recorded by Thucydides, (II, 37)"). This solution conforms also with the title of the Wikipedia article about the Funeral Oration, which is Pericles' Funeral Oration.
- 2. Areios Pagos is replaced by Areopagus by Robth.
- 3. Konstable did all the spelling out of all the names throughout the article.
- Thereby, unless Septentrionalis is going to make some other suggestions then his objection is otherwise inactionable.--Yannismarou 07:55, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
- The use of "record" in this context is an improvement, but it is still misleading; Thucydides himself disclaims the stenographic accuracy which this will suggest to a modern reader. (Pericles' Funeral Oration is English usage, even by those authors who argue that it is not Pericles' words, and that Thucydides indulged his habit of making the speakers say what was in his opinion demanded of them by the various occasions even more than usual to make the case for the war. Isn't Kagan one of these?) But I think in the interval I have come up with a solution. Septentrionalis 15:52, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
- The article, especially the notes, could still use a thorough proof-read. I think I know what note β means to say about Agariste, for example; but I'd be guessing. I corrected note δ, which ascribed a statement from Plutarch to Aristotle. This sort of thing should be fixed before articles are brought here; however, I would not be dealing with this sort of thing if the article had major flaws. Septentrionalis 16:20, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
- Don't be unfair! Most things were fixed before the article was brought here! And you should recognize that! I think the meaning of the note β is clear for the common mind and well-citated. The note you say is not ascribing a statement of Plutarch to Aristotle. The first ref concerning Aristotle was just transferred to the end of the sentence so that it does not interrupt the reader. The ref of Plutarch comes exactly to the next sentence. Thus, checking both refs the reader does not get confused and learns what both writers exactly say. I'm happy however you decided to contribute! Keep up the good work, pal!--Yannismarou 17:14, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
- The article, especially the notes, could still use a thorough proof-read. I think I know what note β means to say about Agariste, for example; but I'd be guessing. I corrected note δ, which ascribed a statement from Plutarch to Aristotle. This sort of thing should be fixed before articles are brought here; however, I would not be dealing with this sort of thing if the article had major flaws. Septentrionalis 16:20, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
- The use of "record" in this context is an improvement, but it is still misleading; Thucydides himself disclaims the stenographic accuracy which this will suggest to a modern reader. (Pericles' Funeral Oration is English usage, even by those authors who argue that it is not Pericles' words, and that Thucydides indulged his habit of making the speakers say what was in his opinion demanded of them by the various occasions even more than usual to make the case for the war. Isn't Kagan one of these?) But I think in the interval I have come up with a solution. Septentrionalis 15:52, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
- Sarcasm, and attacking the people who are trying to improve the article, is not helpful. The note reads: "β. According to Plutarch, Agariste was Cleisthenes' granddaughter, but she was his niece, rather. " [5]"; This is not English; and this article will not be our best work until it is written in the language of this Wikipedia. Nor should the reader have to click on references to see what the article has failed to say. Septentrionalis 23:37, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
- No it does not say that! I have changed the wording long before you made this comment. I don't see it as making any sense on your part to quote old versions of the article and changing your comment from "Object" to "Strongly Object" after everything you have pointed out has been tended to. If you want a personal qualm with Yannismarou, go ahead and have it, but the article is not Yannismarou's regarding on what you may think. I have put a lot work into it too, so have some others. If you have any more concerns about the article please point them out - we have been trying to improve this article, help us do that rather than brand it with clean-up tags with no explanation - this tag will not help and I will not let it stay up there unless you point some major flaws out.--Konstable 06:38, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
- If I had an obvious solution, I might have imposed it. The present text is actively misleading. Perhaps you should unwind a little and let other people think on it; and do read WP:OWN. I'm sure this will be a featured article; it's not quite there yet. Septentrionalis 21:14, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
- Support I would, however, like to see the Legacy subsection expanded somewhat.UberCryxic 00:26, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
- I enriched a bit this section with a few more assessments. But I wouldn't like to overexpand it. I think that it is OK as a closure of the article.--Yannismarou 18:42, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
- Comment people will probably yell at me but... there are too many references cited inline. The text is almost unreadable because there are so many. Can they be moved to the end of sentences where possible. Its[1] tough[1] to[1] read[1] when[1] they[1] are[1] everywhere.[1] -Ravedave (help name my baby) 04:42, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
- As far as I am concerned, I'll not yell at you! You're right! I'll move the refs at the end of the sentences wherever possible.--Yannismarou 07:33, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
- I placed almost all the refs at the end of the sentences. In the very few cases (4 or 5) I kept them within the sentence, I thought this was necessary for the accuracy of the article and the right emphasis. By the way I thought Christine for your baby!--Yannismarou 08:00, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
- That is so much better, way more readable. I added your entry name to the list, Thanks! -Ravedave (help name my baby) 14:51, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
- Oh and... Support Nice article. -Ravedave (help name my baby) 19:11, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
- That is so much better, way more readable. I added your entry name to the list, Thanks! -Ravedave (help name my baby) 14:51, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
- I placed almost all the refs at the end of the sentences. In the very few cases (4 or 5) I kept them within the sentence, I thought this was necessary for the accuracy of the article and the right emphasis. By the way I thought Christine for your baby!--Yannismarou 08:00, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
- Support - Much improved since the last nomination. Well done. My one quibble is with the timeline at the end of the article. I'm not sure if it's customary to list events on timelines in the present tense; all those present participles are throwing me off. Other than that, great job. The Disco King 13:51, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
- Support - Wow. Mithridates 15:07, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
- Comment. This is a good article; with some polishing, it could be a great one. I seriously regret seeing Yannismarou react to suggestions that it needs that polishing with defensiveness and claims that his vast improvements are being ignored. I don't know how much the article has improved; I haven't seen it before.
- Remember, the purpose of this department is to put articles on the Main Page, where they will seen by people who have never seen Wikipedia before, and don't know or care who did what. They will judge the article they see as a finished product, and compare it to paid encyclopedists, beginnning with Britannica's.
- I donot speak about my improvements. I speak about the improvements made by me, Konstable, Robth and Wandalstouring. It is not your obligation to have seen the article before the nomination. But you're definitely obliged to watch all the improvemnets done during the FA candidacy. Something you're obviously not doing. Otherwise, you'd have seen, for instance, that Konstable rephrased note β according to your suggestions and you wouldn't have turned your Objection to Strong Objection.--Yannismarou 13:44, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
- I understand how nervewracking this must be, but I earnestly recommend that Yannismarou take a break and walk away from Pericles. I predict that if he does, he will find the proof-reading done, and the article, with substance largely unchanged, wearing a gold star.
- Your argumentation is is lame. In order to have a proof-reading, you must point out which points need proof-reeding. By not providing such an explanation, you're contradicting yourself and you are demolishing your own arguments.--Yannismarou 13:44, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
My comment stands, until Pericles is polished; but I may set him an example. Septentrionalis 02:02, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
- Response to comment:Further to what I already remarked I must point out that I wasn't sarcastic. I really was happy you contributed and I really think you did a good job, clarifying note δ. And I really want you to contribute. Sincerely, my only intention was to thank you. If my wording was wrong or misleading, please accept my apologies. But where is the sarcasm? Hence, I donot understand why you turned object to strongly object. The problem is you took it personal and because of that (misinterpeting a comment of mine that you regarded it as sarcastic) you decided to fight against this article with all your nerve.
- But, pal, this is not personal! So many users contributed to this article! Opposing it, you're not opposing me, you're opposing a great job made mainly by them. Because without them this article wouldn't be GA or A-Class. Without them, this article wouldn't have 11, if I'm right, supports.
- You speak again and again and again for a proof-reading. So, do it! Instead of attacking me, dedicate your time in doing it! But you'll find nothing wrong. I bet on that.
- During all these months in Wikipedia, I've never insulted anybody in Wikipedia. Neither you. And the remarks which could be regarded as offensive towards you (though they weren't), I erased them as you can see. Despite that, you keep this offensive agains me, telling I must abstain. Well, I won't. I'll keep improving this article and I expect you to do the same thing, because when I say I want you to contribute, I mean it and I am not sarcastic.
- After all these, I repeat what Kontsable said: All your concerns have been addressed, "If you have any more concerns about the article please point them out - we have been trying to improve this article, help us do that rather than brand it with clean-up tags with no explanation - this tag will not help and I will not let it stay up there unless you point some major flaws out." Your proof-reading argument is groundless and based on no actual examples from the article.
- Your vindictive and groundless strong objection cannot be typically erased. Nevertheless, unless you are going to make some other suggestions, then this strong objection is otherwise inactionable.--Yannismarou 08:00, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
- I correct: 13 supports, Septentrionalis.--Yannismarou 18:21, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
- I am glad to see that Yannismarou's post was not intended as sarcasm, and remove the strongly. I will remove my objection when the article is polished; but I do not intend to do all of that myself. Septentrionalis 15:19, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
- Does this mean that you accept you'd added the strongly because you thought I was sarcastic? But I had the impression that we are evaluating articles here not the level of sarcasm of the X or the Z user! Probably I'm wrong. You tell me that "we're writing for the readers" and you are right. I tell you that we are also evaluating for the readers. The readers "compare it to paid encyclopedists, beginnning with Britannica's". I donot think that sarcasm is the right criterion for the evaluation of an article. We are not adding or removing the strongly, according to the sarcasm of the X or the Z user.--Yannismarou 19:23, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
- I have spent some time on the article. I have fixed several solecisms and one downright error. (We do not know when Pericles was born, as a note admits; to say, as the text used to,[6] that he was born in 495, is therefore wrong.) All these are minor, but Yannismarou is rash to bet there are no more; what are his stakes? Septentrionalis 17:26, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
- What I know for sure is that the messing up of the citations is no polishing. When I checked the article I saw you had turned a (ref name="Pl3"/) to (ref name="P13"/) for no reason and an important citation was lost because of your negligence. And since you were lecturing me that this is an English wikipedia why you placed "engonos" next to "granddaughter"? I'm Greek you know and I know that Engonos=grandson-granddaughter, so "engonos" is redundant. And one more thing; most of the polishing you did was already copy-edited by Robth. The fact that you did not like the previous version, it does not mean that it necessarily needed polishing! You have confused the personal taste with the polishing!--Yannismarou 18:15, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
- When you demand a polishing, you must be the first one who is careful and avoids mistakes, which, by the way, I had to polish!--Yannismarou 18:18, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
- I wasn't telling you; articles are addressed to the readers. We're not writing for ourselves; we're writing for the readers, many of whom aren't Hellenists. I apologize for the Plutarch footnote; but wouldn't Plutarch, Pericles [[7]] be just as useful anyway? Septentrionalis 19:23, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
- I believe it is useful, you unintentionally removed it and I restored it. This is the story!--Yannismarou 19:30, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
- If we're writing for the readers, we are also evaluating for the readers. For instance, we are not adding or removing the strongly according to the level of sarcasm of another user! This is obviously a wrong criterion. As you told, the reader of an article "compares it to paid encyclopedists, beginnning with Britannica's". If we want to attract him we cannot judge an article and modify our assessments based on the sarcasm of the X or the Z user. This is obviously a wrong criterion. I am afraid you want the others to write for the readers, while you donot follow the same rule, when you evaluate or reassess an evaluation of an article.--Yannismarou 20:10, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
- Septentrionalis, I have proofread the whole article several times in the past, including once yesterday when I found no errors apart from some minor one-word grammatical mistakes. Apart from me and Yannismarou who haven't voted on this page, there are 13 other people here - all who have read critically through this article. You yourself admitedly don't see any errors right now, and the one you found and corrected was a minor omission that was clarified in a note anyway. Then there are the people who have been working on this article over the past week - me, Yannismarou, Druworos, Wandalstouring, and a whole bunch of minor editors. How is it even possible to get even more people to review this article? What reason do you have to think that there are more errors serious enough that this does not qualify as a featured article, when so many people have read through this article and either found no errors, or minor errors that have been fixed?--Konstable 23:01, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
- You are wrong; we now have 16 supports.--Yannismarou 12:46, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
- I wasn't telling you; articles are addressed to the readers. We're not writing for ourselves; we're writing for the readers, many of whom aren't Hellenists. I apologize for the Plutarch footnote; but wouldn't Plutarch, Pericles [[7]] be just as useful anyway? Septentrionalis 19:23, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
- I have spent some time on the article. I have fixed several solecisms and one downright error. (We do not know when Pericles was born, as a note admits; to say, as the text used to,[6] that he was born in 495, is therefore wrong.) All these are minor, but Yannismarou is rash to bet there are no more; what are his stakes? Septentrionalis 17:26, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
- Does this mean that you accept you'd added the strongly because you thought I was sarcastic? But I had the impression that we are evaluating articles here not the level of sarcasm of the X or the Z user! Probably I'm wrong. You tell me that "we're writing for the readers" and you are right. I tell you that we are also evaluating for the readers. The readers "compare it to paid encyclopedists, beginnning with Britannica's". I donot think that sarcasm is the right criterion for the evaluation of an article. We are not adding or removing the strongly, according to the sarcasm of the X or the Z user.--Yannismarou 19:23, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
- I am glad to see that Yannismarou's post was not intended as sarcasm, and remove the strongly. I will remove my objection when the article is polished; but I do not intend to do all of that myself. Septentrionalis 15:19, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
- I correct: 13 supports, Septentrionalis.--Yannismarou 18:21, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
- Support --Telex 08:37, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
- Support Some P. Erson 17:36, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
- Support Certainly better than many of the current FA selections. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery: I've adapted this article's use of quote boxes into the FA Joan of Arc. The editors of this article should feel proud of their work. Durova 04:44, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
- Thank you very much for your nice words. I also feel obliged to thank you on behalf of Druworos, Konstable and Robth who have done such a great work for this article during the past months.--Yannismarou 12:46, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
- Support Kyriakos 05:24, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
- Comment I've been reluctant to speak so far because of my minor contributions to this article. I'm not about to stand here and say it doesnt have minor language issues. Yannismarou is not a native speaker, and neither am I at that. But I'd like to urge anyone that feels confident enough with the English language to go in there and fix them, rather than complain about it. I'd do that myself (in fact I did for the first couple of paragraphs a few days ago), but I simply dont have the time to deal with the enormity that this article has become. And dont feel bitter towards Yannismarou if he gets a bit defensive. He has put so much work in to this, he should be entitled to sign his name under it. Druworos 21:27, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
- Druworos, Konstable and Robth (and Septentrionalis as well-he also contributed) are native English speakers, they went in and fixed any remaining issues and I think the article has no minor language issues now.--Yannismarou 06:54, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
- I've given this another copyediting run-through, and cleaned up a number of small errors, particularly in the last few sections, that I'd missed on my first go-round. I also implemented a slightly different solution to the Pericles-Thucydides-attribution issue, since I don't believe that had been resolved just yet. Do these changes address all the concerns raised? --RobthTalk 21:48, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
- I gave the article another detailed proof-reading according to Septentrionalis' suggestion and I clarified a series of issues:
- 1. I clarified: a) the circumstances under which the Samian War took place, b) the circumstunces under which Cimon returned to Athens in 451 BC and the assessments of modern scholars, which contradict Plutarch's biography.
- 2. I added: a) the assessments of modern scholars concerning the rivalry Cimon-Pericles, which contradict Aristotle, b) more inline citations in slightly under-citated parts of the article ("Samian War", "First Peloponnesian War", "First year of the war (431 BC)", "Last military operations and death", c) more references.
- After this proof-reading and since Robth has copy-edited once again and has taken care of all the minor language issues, I hope that Septentrionalis' concerns are finally addressed.--Yannismarou 09:48, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
- I appreciate Yannismarou's comments on my talk page; [8] and I think my comments are duly addressed. Thank you. Septentrionalis 18:40, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
- Support and strongly recommend closure. This is a great article, which has passed an exhausting review. All issues have been addressed. :NikoSilver: 20:46, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
- Strong support My issues have already been solved. Wandalstouring 20:46, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
- Comment Having re-read the article and fixed any language issues I could find, I can safely say that the single thing I can think of that may have made this article unfit for FA has been adressed. Druworos 14:01, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
- Support, quite heartedly too. --Michalis Famelis (talk) 21:40, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
See also: archived discussion page for the first expired FAC nomination
This is a self-nomination. This article was first nominated by User:Skittle two months ago and it went through a month-long enhancement, mainly in inline citation. It has been a month since the nomination was retired. And I believe all previous problems are now addressed. The article was given Wikipedia:Good articles status on June 29th. Fred Hsu 02:59, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Support Seems like it deserves to be featured. 11kowrom 18:41, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
- Comment I apprecate that the images are necessary to explain the subject, but the current layout is pretty messy, and I'm sure must look worse at some resolutions.--Peta 05:07, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Tentative objection.Agree with Peta and also find the style unencyclopaedic in places:- "converging the two eyes at a point behind the pattern" - how about "focus"?
- "One needs to fight this urge"
- Looks like a great article otherwise.
- Samsara (talk • contribs) 09:24, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
- The first quote doesn't refer to focus. Both eyes are focused on the image (they have to be or else it would be blurry, 3D or not), they are just focused on different parts of it, so the lines of sight intersect at a point behind the image. I'm not sure how the wording could be improved... —Keenan Pepper 15:04, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
- The layout seems to work at 800 width with Monobook. Support. - Samsara (talk • contribs) 17:01, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
- About the layout: I've tried very hard to make these images fit better, but it was almost impossible to make it better (see formatting issues during peer review and layout discusion. I know this article is not a typical wikipedia article. The ratio of images to text is way higher than the norm. Fred Hsu 01:58, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
- About the 'urge' sentence: You have a good point. I rephrased that sentence :) Fred Hsu 02:09, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
- Object—2a. It was looking well-written until I hit "such as in a repeating pattern like you might see on wallpaper", which crashes on several counts. Further scrutiny revealed problems such as:
- "Julesz used a computer to create a stereo pair of random-dot images which when viewed under a stereoscope, caused the brain to see 3D shapes. This proved that depth perception was a neurological process."—Tense: shouldn't it be "cause" and "is", for permanent facts? More commas please, such as after "which". Please go through and audit the text with respect to both of these issues.
- Keenan already fixed these and a few dozen other bad sentences. Fred Hsu 03:44, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
- "Around 1849-1850, David Brewster, a Scottish scientist, improved the Wheatstone stereoscope by using lenses instead of mirrors, thus reducing the size of the contraption. Brewster also noticed that staring at repeated patterns in wallpapers could trick the brain"—Can't you make it "In 1849 and 1850"? (Maybe not; it just looks awkward as is.) Get rid of "also" to strengthen the flow of the text. The word reduces the impact of your main point (what he noticed).
- It is not clear in which year this incident took place. I changed it to "Between 1849 and 1850". What do you think? I also removed "also" as you suggested. Fred Hsu 03:35, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
- I wish you'd tell us how to look at the first image, on the spot. Perhaps in the image info page, since you invite us to click on the thumbnail image?
- I made the words "viewing technique" a link to the "Viewing Techniques" section. I wish I could explain the technique in a few words. But it is impossible. Fred Hsu 03:37, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
- "Julesz used a computer to create a stereo pair of random-dot images which when viewed under a stereoscope, caused the brain to see 3D shapes. This proved that depth perception was a neurological process."—Tense: shouldn't it be "cause" and "is", for permanent facts? More commas please, such as after "which". Please go through and audit the text with respect to both of these issues.
This is a good article, but please get a colleague, whether a WPian or external person, to sift through the whole article; the prose is not yet "compelling, even brilliant". Tony 14:54, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- If no one else gets to it by this evening, I'll go over it with a fine-toothed comb. —Keenan Pepper 16:55, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Thank you, Keenan, for going over the entire article again! I'll address the rest of issues our dreaded Tony brought up tomorrow, if you don't get to them. Thanks again. Fred Hsu 04:33, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
- Actually, I haven't gotten to the last section Autostereogram#Viewing techniques yet, and that may be the one with the most problems. I'll look at it right now. —Keenan Pepper 04:49, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
- Oh, how nice to be famous. You do want to be proud of the article, don't you? Tony 09:54, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
- Actually, I haven't gotten to the last section Autostereogram#Viewing techniques yet, and that may be the one with the most problems. I'll look at it right now. —Keenan Pepper 04:49, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
- I'm sure he didn't mean it personally. Anyway, the article could still use a little work. Specifically, it's 33 kB long, slightly over the suggested limit of 32 kB, and it could use some omitting of needless words, as Strunk and White say. I'll try to do some pruning. —Keenan Pepper 19:10, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
- Of course I meant it personally, as a compliment :) I read Tony's comment on other candidates and his Guide on 2a with admiration. But I simply don't have the skills to perfect English writing :( I knew he would strike sooner or later, and hoped that someone like Keenan would step in to help ;) Fred Hsu 21:06, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
- No one takes the 33 kB limit as a strict boundary, and much larger FACs are regularly promoted. But prune for readability and concision. Tony 02:18, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
So... what's the verdict? I believe all known problems are addressed during this latest round of copyediting. I hate to see this second nomination 'expire' like the first one. Will some kind soul put a stamp of approval or disapproval on this article? Fred Hsu 17:39, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
- Support. Very interesting, and, in my opinion, sufficiently well-written. It even talks about the type of people (like me!) who can't see the things. A few minor points: please remove all bold from the article except that which appears in the first sentence. If possible, make images that are next to each other have the same frame size (will be based on the length of the captions and the width vs. height of the images). Consider reducing the size of the largest images (perhaps a max of 300-350px would be more approriate for people with 800x600 screens). Also, using a gallery may be a good idea for the first three images in the 3D perception section. Finally, I'd suggest renaming the section currently called "How they work", though I'm not sure what a good alternative would be. --Spangineeres (háblame) 19:21, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
- Thank you. I will work on your suggestions later today. Fred Hsu 12:34, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
- All bold words have been turned into either plain words or italic. Fred Hsu 03:14, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
- I just adjusted size of some images. And yes, I know the article is now promoted to FA. But I will continue to make small improvements. Thanks!!! Fred Hsu 03:23, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
The article has changed very significantly since it was first nominated, rendering many of the objections (most of them filed early) moot. I'm restarting this one. Old nom here. Raul654 04:50, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
- Weak Support. There are a lot of one sentence paragraphs, but otherwise, this is an excellent article given the topic. RyanGerbil10 04:54, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support - great example of how wikipedia can cover unusual topics. 08:59, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
- Oppose - here are my objections which still stand, from the previous nomination, with comments by RN from there also.
- There's lots here that's not really relevant to the article. For example in the intro, Before Colbert's presentation, Bush mocked himself with the help of a celebrity impersonator, Steve Bridges is a non sequitur with the previous sentence and is hardly something that needs saying in a concise overview of the article.
- I think the information is indeed relevant to the article, as throughout the article the event is often compared to the bush vs. bush one by the media, so a little context helps here. RN 22:00, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
- It's still a non sequitur where it is. A bit more explanation should be given there, or better, it shouldn't be mentioned in the intro but only in the main text. Worldtraveller 11:33, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
- Agreed, it's already duplicated now, I'll remove it from the intro and only mention it to note the difference in audience reaction between Colbert's and Bridge's performances. --kizzle 16:42, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
- It's still a non sequitur where it is. A bit more explanation should be given there, or better, it shouldn't be mentioned in the intro but only in the main text. Worldtraveller 11:33, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
- I think the information is indeed relevant to the article, as throughout the article the event is often compared to the bush vs. bush one by the media, so a little context helps here. RN 22:00, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
- 'Early press coverage', 'Media blackout' and 'Praise and criticism' all deal with the same thing, and organisation is a problem here. You could substantially trim what's here because much of it takes the form 'On such-and-such a date, so-and-so said this'. You need to have a paragraph with an illustrative brief quote which explains the point of view behind the quote, rather than just giving a slightly random list of who said what, when.
- There's lots here that's not really relevant to the article. For example in the intro, Before Colbert's presentation, Bush mocked himself with the help of a celebrity impersonator, Steve Bridges is a non sequitur with the previous sentence and is hardly something that needs saying in a concise overview of the article.
- still Object This line needs reworked and prices need to totally go away, it's advertising: "On May 20th, 2006 Colbert's performance at the White House Correspondent's Association Dinner became the #1 download ($1.99) at the iTunes Music Store and #6 at Audible.com. C-Span says copies of a DVD of the event ($24.99) have sold only in the "very low thousands." " Rlevse 14:36, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
- One could do this, but it may be just a style change - I'm unsure if one would want to trim anything here :). RN 22:00, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
- The reason why the prices are mentioned is not to advertise, but to give context to the fact that only a couple thousand DVDs were sold while somehow the much-cheaper online version became the top seller at iTunes. I tried to remove the prices and put a qualifier at the end, but it felt like original research because I had no one to specifically quote that that was the reason behind the difference in sales. Thus, lets just make sure the readers know the difference in prices and let them come to their own conclusions, but the vast difference between the C-Span DVD (24.99) and iTunes download (1.99) definetely should be mentioned. --kizzle 16:50, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
- It all feels a bit choppy at the moment, and still looks a bit like the regurgitation of quotes that I originally complained about. Worldtraveller 11:33, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
- copies of a DVD of the event, priced at $24.95 - the price is irrelevant and looks like advertising. There's also still a link to the C-SPAN store. We shouldn't be promoting or advertising. Worldtraveller 10:22, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
- I don't think it is doing either - it is just discussing it from a numbers and historical perspective - maybe it is too specific, but some readers might find the extra valuable I guess... RN 22:00, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
- Seriously, it looks like blatant advertising with a price. It also doesn't follow from the sentence before properly, and lacks a reference as well. The store like is probably OK as the text accompanying it looks less promotional now. Worldtraveller 11:33, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
- I agree, the prices are inappropriate and look like blatant advertising. Bwithh 15:50, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
- Fixed by Raul654. Price is gone. -- Brian.fsm 07:20, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
- I agree, the prices are inappropriate and look like blatant advertising. Bwithh 15:50, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
- Seriously, it looks like blatant advertising with a price. It also doesn't follow from the sentence before properly, and lacks a reference as well. The store like is probably OK as the text accompanying it looks less promotional now. Worldtraveller 11:33, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
- I don't think it is doing either - it is just discussing it from a numbers and historical perspective - maybe it is too specific, but some readers might find the extra valuable I guess... RN 22:00, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support once the DVD price is removed, and the citation needed tag(s) are gone. Otherwise, a fine article. If my requests aren't met, consider this an objection. Johnleemk | Talk 09:51, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support incredibly well referenced and is a different type of article, wiki needs more like this. As mentioned above it needs the 1 sentance paras worked out of it.--Childzy 10:02, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
- Further opposition brought from old nom:
- This article presents facts without enough context to make them meaningful. To wit: 24 words and a footnote about people thanking Colbert en masse without explaining why they were thanking him or what they were thanking him for. Further to wit: Not knowing the history of the word balls as Colbert's catch-word or whatever makes the Daily Show reference uninformative
- This article is bloated with overuse of direct quotes from sources where they are not warranted.
C-Span says copies of a DVD of the event ($24.99) have sold only in the "very low thousands." (and why give the cost?)- Please see above. RN 01:27, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
- Not sure what I'm looking at. Tuf-Kat
- Fixed by Raul654. Price is gone. -- Brian.fsm 07:20, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
- Not sure what I'm looking at. Tuf-Kat
- Please see above. RN 01:27, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
- why the Washington Post's article about the dinner "did not convey with any specificity what Colbert had to say,"
- Urm, it says right after the quote, doesn't it :)? I agree that wording needs to be tweaked slightly though :). RN 01:27, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
- The information is justifiable. My point is that "did not convey with any specificity what Colbert had to say" is a wordy way of saying "did not cover Colbert's performance" or something that effect. Tuf-Kat 11:06, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
- Urm, it says right after the quote, doesn't it :)? I agree that wording needs to be tweaked slightly though :). RN 01:27, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
The Google searches for "Colbert", "Stephen Colbert", "Colbert Bush", and "Colbert dinner" don't really need to be listed -- none of those are surprising and are perfectly predictable. That doesn't give any more information than just "surge in Colbert-related searches"- I lightly disagree with this - we're trying to show it was an "internet sensation" and this helps it - just saying that cspan hits went up probably isn't enough. RN 01:27, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
- Just say Colbert searches went up -- this makes it look like there's something interesting about these particular terms, when in fact, they're pretty much what you'd expect would go up if Colbert-related searches went up. I bet "Bush dinner", "Colbert dinner Bush" and various others went up too. Tuf-Kat 11:06, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
- Fixed by kizzle. -- Brian.fsm 07:20, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
- Just say Colbert searches went up -- this makes it look like there's something interesting about these particular terms, when in fact, they're pretty much what you'd expect would go up if Colbert-related searches went up. I bet "Bush dinner", "Colbert dinner Bush" and various others went up too. Tuf-Kat 11:06, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
- I lightly disagree with this - we're trying to show it was an "internet sensation" and this helps it - just saying that cspan hits went up probably isn't enough. RN 01:27, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
- The article has been significantly improved in this regard, but I still see a number of direct quotes that are unnecessary. Compare:
- Calame said the fact that the Colbert speech had been mentioned in a later article "didn't explain why Mr. Colbert didn't make The Times in the first place". - this is perfectly ordinary, straightforward English that could easily be reworded.
- CBC columnist Heather Mallick wrote, "Colbert had the wit and raw courage to do to Bush what Mark Antony did to Brutus, murderer of Caesar. As the American media has self-destructed, it takes Colbert to damn Bush with devastatingly ironic praise." or even Colbert's performance "landed with a thud" among the live audience - both are idiomatic and expressive quotes that could not easily reworded.
Many paragraphs are longer than they need to be. e.g. Time columnist Ana Marie Cox called.... Neither of those quotes are particularly useful in and of themselves. That could easily be trimmed without losing anything: "Cox called the allegations of a deliberate blackout a "fake controversy" because Colbert's performance got coverage in the New York Times, the Washington Post, and the major wire services. Fellow commentator Kurtz concurred, noting that he had played two clips on his own CNN show, and the video was carried on CSpan and available online." (not meant to be an exact suggestion) This does not lose any information, presents and connects all the relevant opinions, without original research.(I don't agree that "I didn't get the memo" needs to be a quote; it's not very illustrative and may be difficult to understand for people who aren't native English speakers. But I can live with it.)- While you are right that it doesn't lose much information - I don't really see it as improving anything. Rather, it seems like a change from a more immediate direct quoting style to a more passive one. RN 01:27, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
- It is not appropriate to quote a source unless quoting is necessary to impart information to the reader. There's no reason this can't be summed up in our own words. Tuf-Kat 11:06, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
- While you are right that it doesn't lose much information - I don't really see it as improving anything. Rather, it seems like a change from a more immediate direct quoting style to a more passive one. RN 01:27, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
- Many sections of the article read like random jumbles of facts.
Chicago Sun-Times TV Critic Doug Elfman... exclusive rights to retransmit the video. (these two sentences share a paragraph despite a lack of any explicit connection between them, AFAICT)- You appear to be correct here - I'll try to tweak it :) RN 01:27, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
- I re-organized this section. Please check the new structue. -- Brian.fsm 07:20, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
- You appear to be correct here - I'll try to tweak it :) RN 01:27, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
- Aside from the lead, there is virtually no introductory text. The sections are largely laundry lists of direct quotes, and are not in WP:SS. This objection is actionable and is fixable without including original research. For example, take "Allegations of a media blackout".
Take one paragraph to summarize who alleged a media blackout, and why they believed it. This would not be original research because is merely restating the cited opinions expressed by others.Take another paragraph to explain the opinions of those who deny the media blackout.Create a section for the allegations and one for the denial. In each, restate briefly at the beginning why people believe what they do. Then give the details of who exactly believes what and why.- That section has been well-fixed, and much of the rest of the article has been cleaned up significantly too. Do the same kind of thing to "Praise and criticism for Colbert", and put a sentence or two introducing "Early press coverage". Tuf-Kat 00:49, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Clips of Colbert’s comic "tribute" remove the scare quotes over tribute; probably just change the word "tribute" to "comic performance" or something.Tuf-Kat 00:49, 2 June 2006 (UTC)- Removed the scare quotes. However, the article already uses the word "performance" 18 times; "tribute" only appears 4 times. -- Brian.fsm
- Tuf-Kat 00:16, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
- Three things:
#I agree about the non-sequiteur in the first paragraph - maybe integrate it into the first section on the performance?
- Fixed--kizzle 17:31, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
#The price has to go. It adds nothing to the article and looks like advertising.
- Fixed--kizzle 17:31, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
#Comedians don't "play" events. They perform at them. Al Franken didn't "play" the dinner twice, he performed at it twice.
- Fixed--kizzle 17:31, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
- Other than that, as before, I'm an enthusiastic support for a great article. The amount of effort that's been put into dealing with the various objections brought up is very impressive. Cheers!The Disco King 13:06, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support, obviously. --kizzle 16:52, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support Startlingly well-balanced and NPOV for an article on a polarizing subject. Talk page indicates a high degree of collegiality and civility amongst editors. The subject might not be the most important in the world, but to my knowledge that's not a factor for FA. The quality of the article is an example of how Wikipedia should approach articles on controversial pundits. Kasreyn 17:19, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
- I've stricken (struck?) my complaints above, as they have all been dealt with, so I'll just reaffirm my support. Cheers! The Disco King 17:37, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
There are several people above who have objected solely on the basis of the price being include with the C-Span DVD... since that has been rectified, could you please change your vote to support? Thanks :) --kizzle 17:55, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support It was freedom of speech in it's worst hour. A captive audience, sneering insults right in the face of a sitting President, he might as well have just stood up there and said "
Fuck you, Mr. President". But the article is well written and Colbert is a zero of a comedian...he's about as funny as pink eye.--MONGO 19:19, 31 May 2006 (UTC)- So in other words, you weren't a fan ;) --kizzle 19:57, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
- To me, the greatest amusement was not Colbert's outrageous performance, but the reactions of the audience. The performance wasn't aimed at Bush. If you thought it was aimed at Bush, you missed the point entirely. Remember, Colbert is playing a satirical character. His remarks may have been about Bush, but they were aimed at the people he was facing - the White House press corps. And by the uncomfortable expressions on many of their faces, it appears they took the point quite well. (Helen Thomas up on on the dais, by comparison, was practically cackling with glee at their discomfiture.) It amazes me that they didn't tar and feather him. Kasreyn 23:55, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
- Weak Support pending removal or resolution of the last "citation needed". I have the feeling that this article is at a local maximum: little changes one way or another won't make it noticeably better (though somebody could go through and make the footnote/period placement consistent all the way through, nag nag). A massive reorganization might make it really great, but that's like saying changing lots of notes in "Hollaback Girl" will give you "Hey Jude". In other words, it's not necessarily a meaningful statement. Anville 15:40, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
- Support Article is well referenced and well written. Tombseye 18:14, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
- Object - Comprehensiveness. The one thing that I think this article really needs is some context. If you could add an introductory section (in the article, after the lead) that brings some more context to the issue, that would be enough to change my vote to support. Describing more what the event was supposed to be about (I understand that another comedian was also invited; was having a comedy night the purpose of the dinner?), stating some facts well known today but potentially not well known in the future, such as that this is Bush's second term, all time low approval ratings, etc. This contextual information doesn't need to be very in depth (so long as it links to other articles), but I believe strongly that it needs to be there. Fieari 22:51, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
- Fieari makes a good point here, with very good examples. This should be done before featured status is granted. As another example, reference should be made to reports of Bush as insulated and of his aides normally shielding him from criticism - there are several newspaper articles that have discussed this, and it provides significant context. - Reaverdrop (talk/nl/wp:space) 23:11, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
- I'm fine with adding context where appropriate, but I think an introductory sentence is the wrong way to go here. In fact, I might change my vote to oppose if one was added. Such sections inevitably become crufty and repetitive. savidan(talk) (e@) 22:08, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
- I've gone ahead and tried my hand at adding a referenced context blurb for Bush's reputation for avoiding dissent making Colbert's performance more notable. - Reaverdrop (talk/nl/wp:space) 12:18, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
- Support A very odd topic, but a very good article. Tobyk777 07:10, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
- Support once the two items needing citation are either cited or removed. Disclosure -- I helped contribute to the article. I'm impressed with how much the article has improved in response to everyone's feedback. -- Brian.fsm 20:59, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
- Oppose. I'm sorry, but after some serious thought on the subject, I still can't bring myself to say this article is ready for featured, for the following reasons:
- 1) Context and comprehensiveness, per Fieari's objections in part. This article should have information about the nature of the event where the speech occured, as well as Colbert's character from The Report. Also, there's really no serious discussion of Colbert performance as comedy, despite the fact more than a few sources have written about his unique satirical style.
- 2) Some citations lead to unacceptable sources. The in-line cite for "his jokes were mostly met with awkward silence" leads to a blog entry by a self-described "teenage fangirl" watching the event on c-span (because Stephen Colbert is "hot"). Newshound is apparently a self-published, anti-FOX blog.
- 3) Some quotes are used misleadingly, like Richard Cohen's criticism of Colbert, which was actually a bit more substantial than saying Colbert was "lame", "rude" and "a bully". The way Brian Calame is quoted also seems misrepresentative, even to the point of being possibly disingenuous.
- 4) Prose which falls short of "compelling, even brilliant", with excessive use of scare quotes, some disjointedness, and quotes that don't add anything essential to the article (like saying so-and-so called Colbert "unfunny" and "bad"). I do appreciate that this article is improving. However, I think right now it's still being edited heavilly, and it shouldn't be up for featured just yet. Greater stability than this is probably needed to achieve the compelling prose criterion. And techinically, stability is a requirement too. -- Lee Bailey(talk) 22:57, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
- Since our (probable) goal here is to raise the quality of the article to that of featured status, as with any other article, why don't you make some edits that help put the article in tune with your objections? Looking back at the last 500 edits on the article, it has basically been RN, Brian, and me answering objections on this page by people who haven't touched the article at all or not in a while. I'm not sure how you would accomplish #1 without delving into original research, as I'm not sure it's Wikipedia's duty to evaluate and analyze the efficacy of Colbert's humor. Colbert's character has been plenty explained in The Colbert Report, which is linked to almost immediately in the article's beginning. If you find any citations that lead to unacceptable sources, please just take 5 minutes to google new ones, or remove the citation and put a "citation needed" flag up on the sentence, as your request shouldn't take longer than 10 minutes. For #3, if you believe that Cohen's criticism was mischaracterized, please rephrase it to better reflect his opinions on the matter. Finally, since you have provided no specific examples of scare quotes, disjointedness, and only one example of extraneous quotes, why don't you just go through the article once and do a quick copyedit to make it flow how you would like it to read. I look forward to seeing your edits which might make this article featured sometime soon :) --kizzle 23:48, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
- Our "probable" goal is to rasie the quality of the article? Try to assume good faith. :) With regards to discussion of Colbert's comedy, I see you've asked variants of this question before, and I'm sorry I haven't been around to chime in. It is quite possible to include criticism of Colbert's speech as a piece of humor. Please check out some articles in featured status on the movies, or major written works. Criticism isn't automatically original research; just find reasonably good sources and cite your critics. You've already applied the process to discuss opinions about the media's reaction and the newsworthiness of the event. That process needs to be applied to a criticism section related to Colbert's humor specifically, which is extremely revelant to this piece. As for Colbert's character, I'm not saying you need to reinvent the Report article, but this article currently mentions that the speech was given in the Report character, without a word of explanation as to what that means. This article must assume that the audience is not automatically familiar with the character. Wikilinking exists to allow the reader to explore related topics as they see fit, but articles are supposed to stand alone. A short explanation of what it means to perform in this character is warranted. Also, you haven't said anything about the request for context regarding the nature of the event; but I'll re-iterate that I think that's pretty much essential background too.
- Since our (probable) goal here is to raise the quality of the article to that of featured status, as with any other article, why don't you make some edits that help put the article in tune with your objections? Looking back at the last 500 edits on the article, it has basically been RN, Brian, and me answering objections on this page by people who haven't touched the article at all or not in a while. I'm not sure how you would accomplish #1 without delving into original research, as I'm not sure it's Wikipedia's duty to evaluate and analyze the efficacy of Colbert's humor. Colbert's character has been plenty explained in The Colbert Report, which is linked to almost immediately in the article's beginning. If you find any citations that lead to unacceptable sources, please just take 5 minutes to google new ones, or remove the citation and put a "citation needed" flag up on the sentence, as your request shouldn't take longer than 10 minutes. For #3, if you believe that Cohen's criticism was mischaracterized, please rephrase it to better reflect his opinions on the matter. Finally, since you have provided no specific examples of scare quotes, disjointedness, and only one example of extraneous quotes, why don't you just go through the article once and do a quick copyedit to make it flow how you would like it to read. I look forward to seeing your edits which might make this article featured sometime soon :) --kizzle 23:48, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
- Finally, on your invitation to fix what I see wrong with this article -- respectfully, I must decline. I appreciate that you're using this page as I guideline to try and fix up the article, but let us not forget that this is primarilly a consensus-building discussion on whether or not this article is ready to be featured as-is. As it happens I don't have the time or the ambition right now to tackle the revisions necessary to this article, but I did feel I had to make it clear that serious objections still exist to this article's featured status. I stopped giving specifics about halfway through my above list of objections mostly because the list was getting dreadfully long. Since these long diatribes really have a way of breaking up the page, I'll clarify any objection you want in the order you're interested in dealing with them. But point one is substantial enough to qualify a serious "object", in my estimation. -- Lee Bailey(talk) 03:10, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
- I am assuming good faith, I meant (probable) in the sense exactly what you said, not that you didn't want it to see gain featured status, but that you didn't have time to do it yourself. I think there is plenty of criticism of Colbert's humor in the piece (did you read Cox's piece? Yikes!), I don't think anyone else is pointing to a lack of NPOV as the problem getting this article to featured status, but rather the quality of the prose the article uses. Subsequently, I can't understand for the life of me what is preventing you to simply make a 5 minute pass, adding, contextualizing, and editing what you see as bad prose and make it into good prose. Just spend 5 minutes, one non-minor edit, and I'll be happy. I don't think that's too much to ask. For instance, your point about Colbert's character is a good one, I'm going to try and make the change now, and I expect it should take me about 2 minutes to make a stab at it. Just a little bit of effort is all I ask rather than simply pointing out easily rectifiable flaws and leaving Brian, RN, and me to do it. --kizzle 03:49, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
- Objectors are under no obligation to fix any part of the articles they comment on. It is the burden of people who want the article to become featured to make the necessary changes. Tuf-Kat 04:02, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
- Of course not. Read my comment as more of a friendly appeal rather than citing some obligation, especially considering the good work Lee has already put into the article. --kizzle 04:10, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
- Objectors are under no obligation to fix any part of the articles they comment on. It is the burden of people who want the article to become featured to make the necessary changes. Tuf-Kat 04:02, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
- I am assuming good faith, I meant (probable) in the sense exactly what you said, not that you didn't want it to see gain featured status, but that you didn't have time to do it yourself. I think there is plenty of criticism of Colbert's humor in the piece (did you read Cox's piece? Yikes!), I don't think anyone else is pointing to a lack of NPOV as the problem getting this article to featured status, but rather the quality of the prose the article uses. Subsequently, I can't understand for the life of me what is preventing you to simply make a 5 minute pass, adding, contextualizing, and editing what you see as bad prose and make it into good prose. Just spend 5 minutes, one non-minor edit, and I'll be happy. I don't think that's too much to ask. For instance, your point about Colbert's character is a good one, I'm going to try and make the change now, and I expect it should take me about 2 minutes to make a stab at it. Just a little bit of effort is all I ask rather than simply pointing out easily rectifiable flaws and leaving Brian, RN, and me to do it. --kizzle 03:49, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
- Finally, on your invitation to fix what I see wrong with this article -- respectfully, I must decline. I appreciate that you're using this page as I guideline to try and fix up the article, but let us not forget that this is primarilly a consensus-building discussion on whether or not this article is ready to be featured as-is. As it happens I don't have the time or the ambition right now to tackle the revisions necessary to this article, but I did feel I had to make it clear that serious objections still exist to this article's featured status. I stopped giving specifics about halfway through my above list of objections mostly because the list was getting dreadfully long. Since these long diatribes really have a way of breaking up the page, I'll clarify any objection you want in the order you're interested in dealing with them. But point one is substantial enough to qualify a serious "object", in my estimation. -- Lee Bailey(talk) 03:10, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
- Kizzle, I know this is an annoying response, but I'm honestly not interested in editing this article any more than I already have, at least not for the moment. I may jump in at later junction. And anyway, I haven't had time to go through the massive list of citations for this article and individually evalute each one, so I've offered up an examples of how some citations are problematic. I could fix the one's I spotted easilly, and declare the problem solved, but that would be taking the five second out rather than carefully going down the list and examining each individual source for this article, which probably should have been done before this article went up for featured. In any case, my edting habits are probably a subject more suited to my talk page. If it makes you feel any better, if those 2-second citation fixes still need doing after my more substantial objections to this artcle are addressed, I'll gladly take care of it. :)
- Meanwhile, with regard to the queston of criticism of Colbert, I don't mean the "two thumbs down" kind of criticism. I mean specific critical discussion. Cox's piece is primarilly attacking the mentallity of people defending Colbert. It doesn't say anything of substance about the humor itself. I agree that you've quoted some people who have opinions about whether or not Colbert was "unfunny", but mostly these remarks aren't substantial with regards to the Colbert's humor. Colbert is a comedian who was hired to do comedy at political function. This claims to be an article about his performance, but the best you could really figure out from this article is that Colbert made some jokes about Bush which were maybe out of line, maybe not. Discussion of Colbert's comedy as comedy should be at least as relevant as reporting on Colbert's comedy as political action, but for some reason, no one here seems to be interesting in writing about this angle. Still needs doing. -- Lee Bailey(talk) 05:16, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
- That's not annoying, not all of us have free time :) Just when you get some free time I'd value your contributions to the page. --kizzle 05:24, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
- Lee, it's not that some of your criticisms aren't valid. By for those of us who have been working with you since this article was but a wee stub of the Stephen Colbert article, I think it seems that you have an entirely different vision for the article, and you want other people to write that article for you. I point to your comments here, here, and here.
- As for "discussion of Colbert's comedy as comedy," I've read everything I came across about Colbert & the dinner and have seen nothing on this topic that isn't already included.
- Regarding the TV Squad cite -- TV Squad is notable enough, I think, for the fairly benign claim that Colbert's jokes were met with silence (which Colbert himself admitted on his show). Feester ranks it #3 on its list of important blogs. It is one of the top 10,000 web sites according to Alexa, and is ranked higher than many daily newspapers. Annie Wu, who wrote the article, is ranked #8 on the TV Squad site and appears to be their primary writer on The Daily Show and The Colbert Report. Also, TV Squad is a site dedicated to TV, and this was an event broadcast on TV, so it does seem a relevant source. -- Brian.fsm 18:20, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Considerably rewritten and expanded, addressing all concerns raised in the Peer Review and previous FAC attempt and more. A detailed overview of history and service of this Cold War icon. This is a self-nom of sorts as I am the primary contributor to the current revision. - Emt147 Burninate! 06:03, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Support, a great article on great fighter. Just two points from me:
- Is it possible to have a table of contents please? Those list-like entries are kinda creepy :)
- I would appreciate a section/paragraph/whatever on the Wild Weasel variant. If memory serves, these aircraft were completely "undressed" and modified in order to be converted. Plus, it is a role which is slightly different.
- I'm not convinced by "comparable aircraft"... Mig-21 is 2 times lighter and much smaller than the F-4, so while they may fulfill similar roles (just as all fighters do, they're not really in the same category). Just a thought, maybe I'm wrong so I don't insist :)
Overall, a great article worthy of FA! -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 10:11, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks! I went to the list-like entries because the TOC was gigantic. I think this is much tidier. The Wild Weasel is discussed briefly in the Gulf War section and I made it a separate bullet in the variants summary. All variants are covered in more detail in F-4 Phantom II variants. In truth, there was nothing directly comparable to the Phantom when it came out. MiG-21 and EE Lightning were the closest in mission and performance. - Emt147 Burninate! 15:41, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Minor object:
- The "Operators" section is redundant with the entire "Phantom in foreign service" section, no? I can't see any reason to give the same list of countries twice.
- Footnote 6 seems misplaced. I'm assuming it's meant to apply to the entire section; but footnotes are usually placed after the relevant material.
Other than that, great article! Kirill Lokshin 12:50, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
- I have corrected both issues. Thanks! - Emt147 Burninate! 15:41, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
- Great, support from me now! Kirill Lokshin 16:52, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
- I have corrected both issues. Thanks! - Emt147 Burninate! 15:41, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support Fine article. Rlevse 15:52, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support, having corrected a typo. DCB4W 00:51, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
- Nice article, but I object until formatting and a few other issues are fixed. This should use subsections, but not as many subsections as you have bold headers. In the first level 2 section, use perhaps "Origins", "Testing and production", and "Records". Also, no bold outside of the first sentence of the lead please. Citations follow punctuation,[1] like this.[2] As for units, I've fixed the lead to comply with WP:MoS, try to make the rest similar (abbreviate only the conversion, and use between the number and the abbreviation). "Contemporary United States dollars" needs to be defined (what year was the book published that says those numbers?). Also, the F-4 in fiction section is lackluster; anything to add there or can it just be removed? --Spangineer[es] (háblame) 12:42, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks for the comments. I will work on making those improvements. - Emt147 Burninate! 05:45, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
- I have implemented all of your recommendations. Please re-evaluate and comment. Thanks! - Emt147 Burninate! 00:08, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
- Nice job, but I think there are now too many subsections (the table of contents is quite long considering the size of the article). Perhaps the subsections for each individual country could be changed to subsections for each region (Europe, Asia, Middle East, Australia), and a few of the subsections in the development section should be combined. Is there a way to combine Nicknames and The Spook? They're both short and somewhat related, but I can't think of a good section name that would cover both of them at the moment. Also, there is still alot of bold within the prose; that needs to be removed. If something needs emphasis, use italics, but it's almost always unnecessary. --Spangineer[es] (háblame) 12:47, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
- Also, "Related content" should be renamed "See also" and moved above the references as per WP:MOSHEAD. Its subsections should be eliminated as well. --Spangineer[es] (háblame) 12:52, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
- I have implemented all of your recommendations. Please re-evaluate and comment. Thanks! - Emt147 Burninate! 00:08, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
- This is the reason why I was using bold words rather than == tags which produced a very compact TOC. Then you came in and expanded it back. Now you don't like it. Please make up your mind. The TOC is an optional element and can be turned off if users don't like it, so I would prefer to stop messing with the headings altogether. Check the box in your Preferences if it bothers you. Combining sections and compromising clarity and organization for the sake of shrinking the TOC is an absolute no go. The Spook, the nicknames, and all the separate countries are distinct elements and should not be clumped together because Wiki TOCs suck. I'll work on the bold text. The Related content section is per WP:Air MOS, template-encoded, and will stay. Thanks! - Emt147 Burninate! 14:55, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
- On further review, I think the use of bold is appropriate to highlight the first mention of a new variant or a special project. It improves legibility and makes it easy to find the appropriate text segment by quickly scanning the page. - Emt147 Burninate! 18:13, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
- I've been perfectly consistent. I said "This should use subsections, but not as many subsections as you have bold headers." You turned all your bold headers into subsections, and now complain that I'm having difficulty making up my mind. Did I miss something? The TOC is visible to virtually all users, and must concisely note the key components of the article. Level three sections that are only several lines long are not key components. Everything I have suggested is in line with WP:MOS and is identical to what I suggest on all articles that look like this. And please take a look at WP:CON; terms like "absolute" and "will stay" have no place around here, especially when the things they refer to are not commonly accepted practice. Since my opinions are apparently not of any more use to you, I'll quit commenting unless you ask on my talk page for more input. --Spangineer[es] (háblame) 18:36, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
- I'll shrink the TOC again. Your other recommendations contradict the consensus-derived WP:Air MoS, which differs from the general WP:MoS in order to provide better subject-specific coverage. As for "absolutely," I stand by my words -- it makes no sense to collapse distinct sections of text into a run-on heap for the sake of a shorter TOC. Sorry I upset you and thanks for your feedback -- it is sincerely appreciated even if not followed to the T. - Emt147 Burninate! 21:13, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Support Overall a very well done article. Coffeeboy 14:44, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Support My only suggestion for improvement to this excellent article is that the 'Phantom in foreign service' section be re-named 'Phantom in non-US service' to remove a minor US bias (though the F-4 is, of course, an American designed and built aircraft which was used in the largest numbers by the US military) --Nick Dowling 10:51, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
- Good suggestion, I'll implement it. Thanks! - Emt147 Burninate! 16:36, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Very nice, well-researched and sourced article. Not a self-nom, in the sense that everything I originally wrote has been replaced with better text.--Firsfron 03:09, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Object.Neutral.The lead section is not long enough, and the article needs to have in-line citations, as well as fewer lists. RyanGerbil10 03:30, 23 May 2006 (UTC)- The article has only one brief list. How can it have "fewer lists"?!--Firsfron 03:36, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
- Will work on lengthening the lead. However, aren't there numerous in-line citations throughout the article? They are in Harvard style, which is acceptable in Wikipedia, is it not? (WP:CITE). I am also a little confused about the list comment, to be honest. Thank you for your input. Sheep81 03:47, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
- Harvard inline citations should be alright; just try to make sure every little bit of content has a citation (i.e., at least every paragraph, besides the lead section). --BRIAN0918 15:27, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
- I have to agree that the WP:FOOT and Cite templates look better, and I also must admit I *hate* Harvard in-line citations. I still think the list could be more fleshed out, perhaps explaining the differences between the species, or why so many species could have existed. However, the article is better so I'll strike my objection. RyanGerbil10 00:03, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
- Thank you.
I am currently working on an update which should improve the article further.I fleshed out the list a bit, although most of the detail is still listed on the separate Species of Psittacosaurus page due to its length. I also added a little something about why there are so many known species. Sheep81 00:28, 24 May 2006 (UTC)- Excellent. Full Support. RyanGerbil10 00:23, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
- Thank you.
- I have to agree that the WP:FOOT and Cite templates look better, and I also must admit I *hate* Harvard in-line citations. I still think the list could be more fleshed out, perhaps explaining the differences between the species, or why so many species could have existed. However, the article is better so I'll strike my objection. RyanGerbil10 00:03, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
- Harvard inline citations should be alright; just try to make sure every little bit of content has a citation (i.e., at least every paragraph, besides the lead section). --BRIAN0918 15:27, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
*Object per above. The lead needs to summarize the article, not just introduce it. Yes, inline Harvard is technically okay but WP:FOOT and Cite templates give a neater and more consistent look.Emt147 Burninate! 06:18, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support Very nicely written and interesting. Good job! - Emt147 Burninate! 21:55, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
- Thank you! We will work a little more on the lead to create more of a summary and look into converting to footnotes (I have never done it before). Sheep81 07:38, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
- It's pretty easy to do. For a very short, simple example, see Brail. When you're editing, all the source info is added inline, rather than stuck at the end, but when it's rendered, it shows up at the end. So, for example:
It existed during the Cretaceous period. <ref name="smith">Smith, John. Book o' Dinosaurs. 2004.</ref>
- Then, if you want to stick in another citation from that same source, you just use that name again:
There are at least seven species of this dinosaur. <ref name="smith"/>
- If you have a new source, use a different value for name. Then, at the end, under the References section, all you put is:
<references/>
- --BRIAN0918 15:51, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
- Actually, you can use the Harvard system, but if doing so you should link all of the inline citations- consider using Template:Harvard citation (see usage on Template talk:Harvard citation). However, I also prefer the cite.php <ref> system. AndyZ t 22:20, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
- It's pretty easy to do. For a very short, simple example, see Brail. When you're editing, all the source info is added inline, rather than stuck at the end, but when it's rendered, it shows up at the end. So, for example:
- Thank you! We will work a little more on the lead to create more of a summary and look into converting to footnotes (I have never done it before). Sheep81 07:38, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
- Comment: Besides adding another paragraph to the lead section, you should also consider the following:
- Tense problems: In some paragraphs, the tense switches from present to past. You should try to keep the same tense throughout a section, or throughout an article, if possible. Under the Description section, if you use present tense, you should make it clear that you're referring to the current fossil evidence. If you want to use past tense, you would refer to how they would have looked back then, i.e. "They stood 2 meters high, and weighed over 20 kilograms."
- Description problems: You mention the powerful beak in the lead section, but don't give any more detail in the Description section. Specific information is given for the largest species, but how much larger are they than the average-sized species? How small is the smallest species? What fraction of the 150 known specimens are of each species? Were these fossils found scattered throughout Asia, or in a few large "graveyards"? These are just some random questions that come to mind, though the information may not be public.
- General style problems: Some of the paragraphs are very short (only 1-2 sentences). Also, new paragraphs shouldn't start with But, or However, and the subject should be reintroduced with each new paragraph (ie, in an article about John Smith, each paragraph would start by mentioning his name, rather than simply saying "He...")
- Size: when you say smaller/larger, this has to be with respect to something; and when you say small/large, specific dimensions should be given, so that the reader will know exactly how small/large. ("What do you mean? Small like a rat, or small like a dog?") --BRIAN0918 17:54, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
- This is very helpful, thank you. Unfortunately documentation is very light for most of these species aside from P. mongoliensis, which is by far the most common and well described, so most of the information is based on that species (you see the same tendency in professional works, unfortunately, which just compounds the problem). I will do what I can to find more specific information for all of the species. I will also work on tense and your general style concerns, as well as tidying up the citations. Question though: if two paragraphs are derived from the same source material, would it be better to cite each paragraph separately? For instance, most of the description section is based on one source. I really appreciate all of the suggestions we have received on this article, thank you! Sheep81 23:36, 23 May 2006 (UTC) PS - There is no way to wrap the text around the TOC, correct?
- If you can't find the information in the journal articles, you could probably email the author and ask him specific questions. I've done this on several occassions. I would cite each paragraph separately. With the <ref> system, it won't look as bad as with the Harvard system. You could probably wrap around the TOC block if you wanted to, but I don't think it's preferred. --BRIAN0918 00:19, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
- Thank you.
Stay tuned to this station. I just went through the article with a fine-toothed comb to coordinate all the tenses to past tense. I also added a new section on Predation which I had forgotten to originally include, and expanded the lead to three solid paragraphs. Sheep81 00:28, 24 May 2006 (UTC)Tenses fixed, Predation section added and updated, lead expanded to three paragraphs, further copyediting performed, and now... article is completely footnoted! Look forward to any further comments! Thank you all. Sheep81 10:14, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
- Thank you.
- If you can't find the information in the journal articles, you could probably email the author and ask him specific questions. I've done this on several occassions. I would cite each paragraph separately. With the <ref> system, it won't look as bad as with the Harvard system. You could probably wrap around the TOC block if you wanted to, but I don't think it's preferred. --BRIAN0918 00:19, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support. It looks good now. Some other improvements would be to: go into more detail in the diet and predation sections, if possible; add a few more useful external links; find a freely-licensed image for the article, or create your own... if you aren't good at drawing, you could ask User:Rfl, who drew this skull, to try drawing one of the heads/skulls of the dinosaur. (note: I've asked him to make a drawing of the skull) --BRIAN0918 20:18, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
- Thank you, that would be terrific if he would do it. We are also asking an outside artist for permission to use some images. The one in the taxobox is pretty but would look better in the body of the article. Sheep81 20:36, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support I thought the article was good before all the improvements.--Firsfron 00:17, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support. This is a great article! Only problem I could find: reference tags should be placed after punctuations marks, like this.[1] And not like this[2]. Other than that, definite FA material! -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 08:09, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
- Fixed. Thank you! Sheep81 10:06, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Time
Self-nom. An article about an epic WWII battle, hiding in the shade of Kursk salient :) Good length, pictures, formatting and inline citations. Has been peer reviewed by MILHIST project.
Oh, and that is the first FAC I nominate, so don't bite the newcomer please :)) -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 17:14, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support, excellent article; all issues raised during the peer review have been addressed. Kirill Lokshin 17:17, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
- Excellent work - interesting and very readable. Some minor problems need fixing before I can support this nomination; I've done a little bit of work myself but things I haven't done include
- Overlinking, e.g. road network - be careful only to link to relevant subjects. In this case, neither link leads the reader to anything relevant to the article. There are other examples. Also, some words are linked several times - it's only necessary to link the first appearance of a word. - Adressed to a reasonable extent. I know i'm overlinking, but in this case, multi-links to places and rivers and so on... seem necessary, because people are usually not familiar with Russian geography. But I removed any non-relevant ilinks... :)
- Linking style as well - you have, for example, After a rain, quite common during the Russian summer, most of them were covered with mud - it would be much better to link transparently to the word Rasputitsa, explainin what it is at the same time. -- Corrected, the only example remaining is anti-aircraft warfare, which I think is quite OK to link as anti-aircraft defense. Correct me if I'm wrong :)
- Yeah, that's fine - it's just using a piped link with text that doesn't look at all like the article title you're linking to that's not very desirable. Worldtraveller 11:06, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
- Language issues - I have rectified a lot of minor grammatical problems and spelling mistakes, but more might remain, so I'd recommend a thorough read through. -- I reread the article, but that's where my English hits the wall... :( Your help is welcome...
- I've been through it more thoroughly, and fixed up all the nitpicking minor things I could find. Worldtraveller 11:06, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
- As ordered by the Stavka - Stavka is not previously explained. -- Done.
- as general M.M Popov wrote in one of his articles - this wording appears to endorse a viewpoint. Also, it's not explained who M.M. Popov is, or why his articles are relevant. It would be better here to write what he said in your own words, then cite him as a reference. -- Done.
- What was General Kurt von Tippelskirch's involvement with the battle? This needs to be explained. -- Explained.
- 'Aftermath' says the total advance was 200-250km; immediately above, it says it was 100 to 180 km. -- Clarified: 100-180 is advance during 3rd stage, 200-250 is overall advance.
- It's a little bit weak at the end. A brief mention with a couple of links about what happened after this battle would be really good.I added a last paragraph about what happened next in the northern part of the Soviet-German front (Leningrad counteroffensive and Operation Bagration in 1944). If you feel more details would be necessary about a particular subject, please say so :)
- Otherwise, excellent work - hope to see many more such articles from you! Worldtraveller 18:01, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
- Brilliant stuff - I enthusiastically support this now. Worldtraveller 11:06, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Support: Excellent article but some above concerns by Worldtraveller need to be adressed. - Tutmosis 18:41, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support but I have some problems with part of the prose. These sentences caught my eye:
- "By 30 September, the Soviet offensive was tired and depleted, and became bogged down near Vitebsk, Orsha and Mogilev, which were still held by the Wehrmacht, and on 2nd October, the Smolensk operation was over." - Seems like a run on. -- Sentence changed by Worldtraveller just before :) What would you suggest?
I would write...."By 30 September, the Soviet offensive was tired, depleted, and became bogged down near Vitebsk, Orsha and Mogilev-still held by the Wehrmacht-before the Smolensk operation ended on October 2nd."UberCryxic 22:46, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
- Apologies for messing that up when I was trying to fix it :) Worldtraveller 11:06, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
- "Subsequent attacks by Armored and Cavalry forces of the 6th Guards Cavalry Corps had no further effect and resulted in important casualties because of heavy German defenses, leading to a stalemate." - People realize what you're saying here, but I suggest replacing the word "important" with something else, like "heavy" or "significant." -- Corrected.
- "Thus, both operations were a part of the same offensive." - "Thus" isn't needed. Just say "Both..." and get on with it. Same thing with.... -- Corrected.
- "Finally, the forward edge of the battle area was protected by three lines of barbed wire and a solid wall of minefields." - "Finally" not needed. -- Corrected.
- Otherwise, it was a very good article. Worthy of FA.UberCryxic 19:05, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Comment -- All issues raised above were corrected or at least attempted to be corrected. My remarks are in red above. -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 20:17, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
- A couple minor issues: Make sure & nbsp; precedes abbreviated units (I think I've done most of them) to prevent line breaking, and format repeated inline references so that the actual text of the reference only appears the first time, and future identical references carry the number first used (saves space in your notes section). Also, check for agreement—I noticed that the Geography section switches between past and present tense. Other than these minor issues, however, very nice work. --Spangineer[es] (háblame) 20:06, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
- IRT tenses in Geography section: corrected. :)
- IRT references: I did not know it was possible... Sorry I'm just a dumb newcomer and don't know wiki scripting very well... :( -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 20:17, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
- No problem at all. But actually, let me suggest referencing like I used on shielded metal arc welding—have a references section where you list the books, and then a notes section where you list just the author or title keyword and the page number. --Spangineer[es] (háblame) 20:28, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks for the suggestion, I'll be sure to consider it. However, I don't think it is an obstacle to FA (or am I mistaken?). I think than more important style matters should be dealt with first... :) -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 20:53, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
- References changed to short form (with 1st occurrence in full) -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 20:21, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
- No problem at all. But actually, let me suggest referencing like I used on shielded metal arc welding—have a references section where you list the books, and then a notes section where you list just the author or title keyword and the page number. --Spangineer[es] (háblame) 20:28, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
- Comment Should "second" or "battle" or both or neither (of Second battle of Smolensk) be capitalized? In Second Battle of Bull Run, both are capitalized. AndyZ t 21:11, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
- It was capitalized in the infobox, so I did so in the lead as well. Maybe it will be changed but at least it is logical for the moment :) ... -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 21:15, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
- Comment: Nicely written but needs a touch more work.
#Needs another round of proofreading and copyediting for grammar and spelling.I think it's about done by a lot of people (kudos to them all :)- Some vernacular, e.g. This direction, which was the Stavka's biggest headache since 1941, was finally secured. I'm sorry I don't get it...
- "Biggest headache" is something you would use in a conversation but it's too informal for an encyclopedia. There are a few other places where I felt the tone was like that (again, a proofread would help). - Emt147 Burninate! 15:45, 23 May 2006 (UTC) Corrected, and I assume proofread is quite OK by now... :)
- I would like to see a mention of notable equipment (guns, tanks, aircraft, etc.) used, if any.
#The lead needs to provide a better summary of the article.Lead Expanded#The two commanders (?) in the lead should have ranks preceding their names.- Emt147 Burninate! 06:36, 23 May 2006 (UTC) Done- Good points, I'll see what I can do. -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 08:40, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
- Generally support, as this is a very good article on an important subject that thus far has seen little treatment in the relevant literature in the west. A few minor points that I think should be addressed:
- Exact time of the attack, attack procedure (e.g. preliminary bombardment, etc.) for the first stage Added
- German reserves shifted up from the Orel region – a bit more detail? Added
- Soviet Fronts (Front should always be capitalised and they should be wiki-linked). In general I think capitalisation needs to be checked. Checked I think...
- I think a generic map of the region with all the placenames would be most helpful. Andreas 07:04, 23 May 2006 (UTC) Added a general plan to help with the text.
- Support as the criticism seems to have been addressed. We need more military FAs on subjects other than Polish military history. --Ghirla -трёп- 07:54, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
One more comment - the picture used in the infobox looks to me as if it is from the occupation of Smolensk in 1941, not the liberation. The tank is a T26, a model which was not in service anymore - on its turret a direction indicator for a German tank formation is drawn. The truck also looks distinctly German. Together I should think this means the picture is from 1941. Andreas
- Remember that they did not clean the streets after the 1941 mess (that's why the tank has signposts on it). And the city was captured in one night too, so they had no time to evacuate. As for the signposts, sure they were there before they were removed (look at the photo at Battle of Budapest.
- In short, I'm not sure. But what we could do is swap this one with one of the two pics in the aftermath section... What do you think??? -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 09:45, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
- I'd be surprised if they left the tank wreck in situ for two years, but stranger things have happened. More importantly though, the soldier on the truck looks more like wearing a German uniform to me. None of this is conclusive by any means, but I'd change it for one of the later pictures. Andreas 11:24, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
- Pick the one you would like :) -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 14:11, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
- I'd go for the one with the civilians, which is currently the last one. Just switch them and caption the other one 'Smolensk during the war', or sumfink. Andreas 17:12, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
- Done. :) -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 18:26, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
- I'd go for the one with the civilians, which is currently the last one. Just switch them and caption the other one 'Smolensk during the war', or sumfink. Andreas 17:12, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
- Pick the one you would like :) -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 14:11, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
- I'd be surprised if they left the tank wreck in situ for two years, but stranger things have happened. More importantly though, the soldier on the truck looks more like wearing a German uniform to me. None of this is conclusive by any means, but I'd change it for one of the later pictures. Andreas 11:24, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
- support
with quibble:Some identical refs could be combined, also, repeating the entire reference each time instead of just the shortened form gets tedious very quickly. Circeus 21:38, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
- By shortened form, do you mean like here??? -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 21:57, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
- Roughly. Though I don't mind if the first note uses a full text instead of having to refer to the references. Circeus 00:30, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
- References changed, please remove your quibble :))) -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 20:19, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
- Roughly. Though I don't mind if the first note uses a full text instead of having to refer to the references. Circeus 00:30, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
- Full support now following all the changes, and a big pat on the back for Alexandre for making all this effort and making the changes so quickly. Andreas 14:06, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support although I usually feel comfortable if articles exceed 32kb. Please see if you can add more material. Rama's Arrow 22:02, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
- Comment - Articles should actually avoid exceeding 32kb if possible - see Wikipedia:Article size. Worldtraveller 12:52, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- However, because of heavy German resistance the overall advance was quite modest and slow, and the operation was therefore accomplished in three stages (7-20 August, 21 August-6 September, and 7 September-2 October) with intervening stalemates. This sentence in the lead makes it sound like there were "intervening stalemates" of 0 days :) Haukur 19:40, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
- Wasn't me, but I removed this mention. -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 19:56, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support As per Kirill. Major criticisms have been addressed and now meets FA criteria. Well done.--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 16:59, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
- Comment A very good article for the technical details of the battle, and an in depth description of unit movements, etc. However I felt that the terrible destruction of the battle needed to be brought out more. What would it be like if you were actually there, a Russian or a German soldier caught up in this horrendous battle? Nowhere in the text is the human cost of the battle mentioned, and nowhere is the immense human suffering of battle mentioned. What about an account from a soldier who was actually there, instead of a general talking about the numbers and titles of 'units' involved? Where is the human element in this article? It talks about units being able to continue the advance because they were 'reinforced'. Think what that word means - it means that hundreds and thousands of men met their deaths in horrible wretched circumstances amid the blaze of gunfire and artillery explosions. We shouldn't forget that an entire generation of Russians and Germans bled to death on the eastern front in WW2. The last thing I want to come across as is bloodthirsty, so I apologise if anyone has misunderstood my post. All I am trying to say is that war is hell. There should be at least some reflection of that in this article. Otherwise, it is easy to read it in the same was as an account of a football match, and forget the terrible cost of the battle. Bigdaddy1204 22:07, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Peer Review | 2
Article has been expanded, much larger than before, more depth. This article now covers everything that is known about this film, seeing as though information is scarce. ....(Complain)(Let us to it pell-mell) 06:55, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Weak ObjectSupport : though broad and well-written. It lacks in accessibility of the article (nothing links to it). Plus there are too many lists. The award section should really be dumped into another section like the reception one. Lincher 19:13, 18 June 2006 (UTC)- OK, well, I've made the awards section a subsection of reception, and added a note of intrest to the "Other Awards" section, you know, just a few stats and things. As for the lists, well, the cast section is moddeled on Casablanca (film) and Revenge of the Sith, both FAs themselves. As for accesibility, you can access this article from each of the principle cast's pages, each of it's award pages, each of Olivier's other films, and from each of the pages that sort films, like 1955 in film. Any suggestions on as to where I should place new links? ....(Complain)(Let us to it pell-mell) 00:46, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
- Actually, looking at other Film articles that are FA status...this one's not too bad, considering that there are no real themes in the film, and that it's a very obscure and not well documented film. ....(Complain)(Let us to it pell-mell) 01:43, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
- Oh, and in terms of too many lists...there are two. Is that too many? ....(Complain)(Let us to it pell-mell) 06:07, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
- Everything has been modified toward the comments. Lincher 17:40, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
- Oh, and in terms of too many lists...there are two. Is that too many? ....(Complain)(Let us to it pell-mell) 06:07, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
- Actually, looking at other Film articles that are FA status...this one's not too bad, considering that there are no real themes in the film, and that it's a very obscure and not well documented film. ....(Complain)(Let us to it pell-mell) 01:43, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
- OK, well, I've made the awards section a subsection of reception, and added a note of intrest to the "Other Awards" section, you know, just a few stats and things. As for the lists, well, the cast section is moddeled on Casablanca (film) and Revenge of the Sith, both FAs themselves. As for accesibility, you can access this article from each of the principle cast's pages, each of it's award pages, each of Olivier's other films, and from each of the pages that sort films, like 1955 in film. Any suggestions on as to where I should place new links? ....(Complain)(Let us to it pell-mell) 00:46, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
How Delightful. In that case, I'll... Self-nom ....(Complain)(Let us to it pell-mell) 23:47, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
- Support - Broad, comprehensive, covers all that is known about the film. Easy to follow. Well Done. MAGIC...POOO! 05:30, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
- Comment - Added some music, might help. ....(Complain)(Let us to it pell-mell) 06:06, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
- Comment-Not bad, but could use some citations in the direction, cinematography, and music subsections. Also, perhaps direction and cinematography could simply be merged and expanded a little under a Production section, while music could be a subsection or its own section. Tombseye 20:40, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
- That's actually based on Casablanca (film), and it worked there...are you sure? ....(Complain)(Let us to it pell-mell) 23:00, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
- Support-Hmm true enough. Casablanca is a damn good article. Okay, I have no other complaints as I was looking over the article and comparing it to Casablanca and it looks good. My other criticisms may be just subjective at this point, so I'm backing it. Hope it makes it. Tombseye 10:13, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
- Support-Great movie starring Laurence Olivier, and also a great direction. L. Olivier had plenty of Oscar Nominations, but only one award (1948). This film is someting that represents him.
- This FAC escaped my attention, and I posted the following under the peer review. Since it is at FAC, however, I must
opposeit.
Smaller sections and subsections should be merged. The sub-sectioning of "Produciton" is really uneven.
- How in particular do you think I should fix it? Your'e pretty vague
Perhaps make the "Cast" and "Awards" sections into prose?
- For awards, would make life difficult. Cast Based on other FA Film articles. Actually, so is awards, and there's no real problem there.
There are, as you point out only two lists, but what lists they are!
- Cast list is large due to fact that most principle players are billed on same tier. Take it up with the ghost of Laurence Olivier
Logically, shouldn't "Awards" come before "Influence?"
- Done
The excessive block-quotes are unnecessary and disruptive to they eye, even in scanning the page.
- Done
The long introductory quote in the "Plot summary" has got to go, or be significantly condensed.
- Done
--Monocrat 22:08, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
- I'm still unsure as to the value of the introductory quote. Perhaps it can just be rewritten?
- That would defeat the purpose of it. It's an abridged (now) version of the prologue text, which gives good context to the story
Regarding the listy awards section: the subsection headings are unnecessary for such brief discussions, and there's no need to have Olivier's Best Actor nom as its own bullet, which is duplicated in the following text. You could also move the text at the end up, merging it with the Best Actor nom, then following with "Other awards and nominations include:". Considering that most of the awards were won by Olivier, I doubt it would be exceptionally difficult to make that section completely into prose.
- Done...sort of. Prose just isn't wise for Awards.
And I don't really care how Olivier billed them or how many you include, what is wrong with a simple table with the characters, actors, and maybe how they relate to other characters.
- It doesn't conform with other FAs. Besides, it's messy, and you can't fit in as much info. This film doesn't have character relations, it's about one guy killing everyone to get the crown. Sort of a lite Macbeth.
I would prefer that discussion of what Olivier wanted from actors, and follow-ups (like for Paul Hudson) to take place in a paragraph, not in a list or table.
- Once again, conforming with other FAs.
I just don't like the subsectioning in "Production." "Adapting the play" could arguably be moved to the section's lead, and paragraphs 2, 3, and 5 could be reorganized into "Casting and filming" or some such.
- Done
Furthermore, there are a host of problems with the copy, mechanically and stylistically, keeping it from being "compelling:" e.g., "The cast was entirely made up of British Actors. All of the actors were on the same billing tier in the film, though in reality, Olivier has the lead role;" "Otto Heller did the cinematography for the film." There's more, but it's midnight here, my mind's getting foggy, and I have a busy day tomorrow. Sorry to cop out like this, but I might be back.--Monocrat 03:59, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
- Done until you cite more examples.
- I can't believe I missed this: per the MOS, if you link to an article in the text, don't put it in "See also."
- Done
What's worse, there's a link to Cast and Crew of Richard III, which quite nicely lists everyone. There's now no reason to list the whole cast in the main article, unless you want to change the Cast article to a redirect.
- Whole cast is not listed in main article, only stars. I know, it's confusing, due to the large amount of actors given top billing in the film, but if you look a bit harder, the complete cast and crew lists a lot more people than the main article.
In which case, the above comments stand.
- Most have been adressed
Otherwise, simply summarize the most important roles and actors, and use Template:Main. That frees up space for discussion of character relations and the rest.--Monocrat 04:27, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
- That other article is meant to be a bare bones reference, with complete listing. Not meant to have descriptions and other such stuff.
- You cite ealier FAs. In response I'll say that Casablanca was FA'ed almost two years ago, and the more recent V for Vendetta, Ran, Tenebrae, November, and even Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith simply blow this article out of the water in terms of formatting, and possibly content insofar as they are comparable.
- Getting this article to this point has been a mammoth task, due to the fact that it's a poorly documented film, in that, there are no making-of books, no press coverage, no interviews, so length wise it's always going to look skimpy next to the other films you mentioned.
- Apart from blaming it on Olivier's ghost, give me a compelling reason why we need bits like "Lately adherent to the Houes of York" breaking up the flow of the list of cast? I don't see why you can't do "Cast" like Ran (film): doing so would fit summary style, and would surpass Characters in Ran. Nevertheless, character/cast lists do seem common practice for film FAs, but the formatting needs work.
That's the way that the cast is mentioned in the film. Why don't I do it like Ran? Quite frankly, I hate what they've done for that section of Ran. I want to find out who's in the film, and quick, and that certainly doesn't help. What I've done is also akin to Revenge of the Sith, the exception being that Sith gives a description of the character, rather than the star. Which is useless in my case. And possible on Sith too.
- Why is prose unwise for awards? I really don't get it, but if there's been substantial debate about the issue, I'll withdraw the point. Also, is it necessary to have the list of awards above what prose there is?
Why are lists unwise for awards? I don't get it! The information is there, and it's easy to access at a glance, once again, unlike Ran.
- What I meant by "relations" is stuff like whether the character was a son/adherent of Edward IV or what have you.
- Well....that is already stated.
I also think that the critical reception could use more material and citations.
- Reception? The things got about 5 reviews on rt.com, most of which are commenting on how well Criterion did with the DVD. I don't see what I could add there without making stuff up, honestly.
- Regarding the copy: there are too many instances to fully list here. Broadly, clean up the text in and around your citations (unles I'm wrong, they should be flush to the text employing them);
- resolved
work on capitalization;
- well...apart from the prologue text...it's fine, isn't it? And the Prologue text may have some bad grammar because it is a direct copy from the film's opening. DIRECT.
Template:Details if not Template:Main should be used to note "Cast..."
- Done
These take care of the major mechanical problems, but the stylistic one remain: Consider the entries for Hardwicke, Gielguld, and Olivier in "Cast:" There are uncited assertions of fact and (e.g., Olivier's interpretation of Richard) and interpretations ("can be interpreted as a combination of Olivier's quest for an all-star cast..."), and the prose is plain at best.
- Done for Gielgud, and Olivier, but Hardwicke? What's wrong with that? Why would I cite that he came to Hollywood and did supporting roles? That's like citing that the Dinosaurs are extinct
- Re "Criterion": surely there have been other video releases. I don't see the harm in simply mentioning them.
- Done.
Secondly, Criterion provides you with the commentary track the documentary —prime secondary sources—but I don't see any citation of either.
- Because, to my shame, I don't own the Criterion version. Yet. But the commentary is only for insight on the play, not really into the production of the film. According to Criteion.
If you have access to a library database, see what JSTOR and the linke can pull up for film criticism.
- No dice in that department. As I said, few documentations, review or otherwise, survive.
- Looking at the more recent FAs, I notice that there's no section on themes. The article on the play seems rather wimpy, so I don't know what to suggest in that department. I understand that it's about a guy who kills for power, but surely Shakespeare and hence Olivier dealt with more than that.
- Suprisingly, no, this film doesn't really have any themes, which would go against the grain of Shakespeare. Perhaps the bard put in some themes, but Olivier's film is really just for entertainment. It's really just watching a guy pulling of some nefarious plots, and reaping the rewards. I know that description doesn't really do the film justice, it's a great film, but it's not an especially deep and thoughtful film.
--Monocrat 12:30, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
- It's really hard to tell where my comments end and yours begin! :) One, I don't really about Olivier's preferences on the presentation. The list now is unattractive and disruptive to a reading of the article. I don't see anything to prevent you from adopting and modifying the style of Revenge of the Sith.
- It's a list, just like Revenge of the Sith, however, it is divided up into who's who, and instead gives a short note of interest for each actor. It's not that different from ROTS. I based this thing on Casablanca, and wether or not it was an FA long ago or recently, it's still one of the best FA film articles around.
Two, you're the one who initially said that prose doesn't work for the awards, and I asked why. I feel that prose would be better, especially since most of the nominations and awards are Olivier's.
- Done. The things I do for a "support".
Three, I disagree as to the availability of online reviews. Google Scholar came up with two promising articles from JSTOR alone when searching for ""richard III" olivier": C.A. Brown (Film Quarterly, summer 1967) and S.P. Cerasano (Shakespeare Quarterly, 1985).
- That's amusing, due to the fact that one of the articles you mention states that there's not too much critical material available on the film. At any rate, I don't have access to JSTOR from my current location, so it only gives me the first page. I personally can't do it.
All of this said, we seem to be at loggerheads about a good many points. :) --Monocrat 03:25, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
- My apologies if my comments were long-winded for your tastes. I hope you stick to the cleaner discussion format. In any case, while this is not the Simple English Wikipedia, this project is aimed at a generalist readership, mixing cineasts, Shakespeareans, academics, rednecks, dropouts, and schoolchildren. I don't have a problem with large words per se, but there seems no encyclopedic value to either employing Olivier's format, nor does there seem much reason to needlessly alienate sections of the readership for whom the article would be most beneficial as an introduction. And as for nitpicky reasons to oppose, scroll down to see what Tony and TigranTheGreat put Azerbaijani people through. Regarding research and JSTOR, I suggest you contact an editor with access or that you find some method of access. Sources are there. --Monocrat 14:58, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
- Well, it's gone through a bit of re-tooling now. I'm making a stand on the Cast thing, but I've given in, as you shall see, on all the other points. ....(Complain)(Let us to it pell-mell) 04:18, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
- I has improved, but not to where I can support it. Things like "The King" and "His brothers" really should be in the bulletted text. However, I'll remove my objection in consideration of your efforts. Good luck. :) --Monocrat 04:43, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
- Well, it's gone through a bit of re-tooling now. I'm making a stand on the Cast thing, but I've given in, as you shall see, on all the other points. ....(Complain)(Let us to it pell-mell) 04:18, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
- My apologies if my comments were long-winded for your tastes. I hope you stick to the cleaner discussion format. In any case, while this is not the Simple English Wikipedia, this project is aimed at a generalist readership, mixing cineasts, Shakespeareans, academics, rednecks, dropouts, and schoolchildren. I don't have a problem with large words per se, but there seems no encyclopedic value to either employing Olivier's format, nor does there seem much reason to needlessly alienate sections of the readership for whom the article would be most beneficial as an introduction. And as for nitpicky reasons to oppose, scroll down to see what Tony and TigranTheGreat put Azerbaijani people through. Regarding research and JSTOR, I suggest you contact an editor with access or that you find some method of access. Sources are there. --Monocrat 14:58, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
Oppose:
- The article needs to be copyedited and polished up. Try to get an experienced copyediter to go over it for you.
- The Cast and Crew of Richard III (1955 film), what encyclopedic value does this article provide, that an IMDB link wouldn't? (I don't think there is an awful lot).
- The reception and criticism section is a little weird. There is a 100% tomatoes rating, yet there is mostly negative comments against the film. (You may want to consider merging those two sections as well).
- "It is the most famous adaptation of the play, though in recent times another popular adaptation has been produced, starring Ian McKellen." I know this is nitpicky, but is the Ian McKellen one actually popular?
- "Lately adherent to the House of York" Do you have to use the term "Lately adherant"? It's a little cumbersome and I think it would be a bit of a speedbump for some readers.
--P-Chan 06:39, 23 June 2006 (UTC) (Please be neat when replying to my comments. The conversation you had with Monocrat is very hard to follow).
I'll be neater in response, becuase you are neater in statement.
- I don't think that it's really that bad, but do you know any good copyediters?
- Well, It's neater than IMDb, and it gives links to the actual historical figures.
- Yes, it has a 100% tomatoes rating, however, as I stated in my comments with Monocrat, Critical reception on this film is not well documented. Anyway, the major praise of the film seems to be directed at Olivier's performance, which I've now mentioned. The two sections are now merged.
- The McKellen version is the only other prominent adaptataion. Its fairly popular yes, certainly not in comparison to and Hollywood blockbusters, no, but in it's own right, yes.
- That's actually the wording from the film. If they don't know what it means, well, there going to learn, aren't they, therefore expanding their knowledge, and then the encyclopedia has fulfilled it's task: It's taught someone something new. Plus, this isn't the simple english Wikipedia.
....(Complain)(Let us to it pell-mell) 07:48, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
- Those are fairly nit-picky reasons to oppose. Oh well. ....(Complain)(Let us to it pell-mell) 11:44, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
- Welcome to the FA process!! :)--P-Chan 03:52, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
- Try here: Wikipedia:Cleanup (submit early, as it takes a while to get any results!). For a do-it-yourself try here: User:Tony1/How_to_satisfy_Criterion_2a. Of course, you could just ask something you know who has contributed at an FA level. But you know, the article is so short that it should be easy to fix everything quickly.
- I'm sure people had some nice things to say about the film itself outside of Oliver.
- Yeah it's neater I'll give you that... but stuff like "Jack Curran - Horse Master" may be better for just the IMDB, as it really seems unnecessary to have an article dedicated to listing every single role. Besides you already captured all of the notable elements in the cast section of the main article.
- I think your response just highlighted why it may not be appropriate. (It sounds a little bit on the original research side.) "Notable" is a little more neutral, so let's try that.
- Dude. That's like... totally poppycock. :) The articles should be written in a way that is clear and accessible. Maybe just "House of York" would be more appropriate?
In any case, don't take the criticism that harshly. Yes, it's nitpicky, but you know when advice gets to this micro-stage, it probably means that all the really major probelms have already been taken care of!--P-Chan 04:23, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks for the advice.
- I've got someone on it, I don't trust my grammatical skills, as highly lauded as they are by English teacher, enough.
- Actually, Olivier's performance is so damn good that that's all the crtical praise it needs to be a success. The film, pretty much, is Olivier. If you see the film, you'll know what I mean.
- Well, if that article is innapropriate, that's too bad. It's not up for FA at any rate, so if it gets deleted, that's too bad. I just thought it might be useful. It can go, and it won't be missed.
- Fine. Done. Hang on...yes...it has been done. Nice.
- Well, I've added a little (Members of) into it, for those who find it hard to grapple with "Lately Adherent". Oh, wait. Also done.
And yes, that was poppycock. Sorry. At any rate, it seems that in the 2 days that I've been away, the article has gone under quite a bit of polishing. Nice. Thanks, P-Chan, for being someone who opposes, but also helps out. Thou art truly a prince amongst...Wikipedians. ....(Complain)(Let us to it pell-mell) 04:10, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
- Weak Support: It still has some minor copyediting and format issues, but at this point, I can't seem to think of anything major that would sink this FA. Thefourdotelipsis, I encourage you to still get your friend to copyedit this article. But right now, it's ok.--P-Chan 00:24, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
- HEY PEOPLE! CONSENSUS HAS BEEN REACHED ....(Complain)(Let us to it pell-mell) 03:10, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
Comment Support: Image:Flo-dali.jpg is cutting a paragraph of text in half. I tried to rearrange the image so this didn't happen but failed miserably :) Any chance you can fix this up please? Cheers --darkliight[πalk] 12:00, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
- Done. ....(Complain)(Let us to it pell-mell) 03:54, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
- Thankyou
- Object—2a. Here are examples.
- "It is the most famous adaptation of the play, though in 1995 another notable adaptation by the same name had been produced, starring Sir Ian McKellen." Strictly speaking, "though" should introduce a contradiction with the previous statement. I'm not sure this is the case here. And I wonder whether there's a POV problem here, in the absence of references. Is this relative fame just a matter of opinion? <--- This has been addressed, as it now corresponds to a later quote in the body.--P-Chan 03:51, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
- "Out of the three Shakespeare films directed by Olivier, Richard III garnered the least critical praise. It is also the only film out of the three not to have been nominated for Best Picture at the Academy Awards, though Olivier's performance was nominated. In later years, the film gained popularity and, through a re-release in 1966, it is the highest grossing of Olivier's three Shakespeare films." Remove both occurrences of "out". Do you like "Shakespeare films"? Isn't there a better wording? "Garnered" implies too active a role; what you want is "received". Olivier's performance refers to his acting, I suppose, not his direction; it's not crystal clear. "It is the highest grossing"—should present tense be used? <--- The problems have been addressed. --P-Chan 02:04, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
- "Richard's evil eventually leads to his downfall." Spot the redundant word. <--- Fixed.--P-Chan 02:04, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
- "The prologue of the film states that history without its legends would be "a dry matter indeed", so the film does indeed admit that it is not portraying the actual events of the time, rather it is portraying and adapting the legend." Why "indeed" twice in six words? The word is not encyclopedic (OK in quotes, of course). A semicolon after "time" is required to make the sentence grammatical.<--- This has been addressed.--P-Chan 02:04, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Thorough surgery required throughout before considering nomination for FA. Let me know if you want other examples, but you shouldn't need further evidence of the need to find another WPian to assist—preferably one who's distant from the text. Tony 09:44, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
- It's relative fame. What can one cite for such a thing?
- Present tense should be used, I suppose, because all films are suceptible to a re-release that may alter their gross. Altered "Garnered", Put "performance" in context, altered to "Shakespearean films", removed "out" twice.
- Spotted and removed
- Fixed
More examples, please. ....(Complain)(Let us to it pell-mell) 10:03, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
- You ask for more examples. OK, a few, but reviewers here are under no obligation to show you how to fix an entire article. Our function, in relation to Criterion 2a, is to provide sufficient examples of the density of problems in the writing to show that either (1) it should not be promoted, or (2) you should network, and fast, to find copy-editors to assist you. First place to look is similar articles (look at the history pages for good editors). I have a secret list of good editors, but I won't share it; you should be compiling one too.
I'm picking out bits at random to show you that the whole text needs thorough treatment. The problems are everywhere, I'm afraid.
- "The result was that the film was released in cinemas and on television simultaneously, which in turn resulted in a poor box-office gross." Why not: "Consequently, the film was simultaneously released in cinemas and on television, which resulted in poor box-office returns." Now, this is partly a matter of style, but let's face it, "compelling, even brilliant" prose has to have style. In the end, style can be reduced to technical matters. You need to get better at them, but this won't happen suddenly.
- "added an extra element"—sure this isn't excessive? (Can we do without "extra"?)
- "After obtaining both John Gielgud and Cedric Hardwicke,"—"engaging"?
- "in order to film"—spot the two redundant words.
- "Olivier took several sittings for the famed painter Salvador Dali, to have a portrait painted." Unclear and awkward.
So, finding collaborators who are interested in this topic is your immediate goal. Fortunately, WP makes it easy for you to identify them; express knowledge of and interest in their work, and they're more likely to be flattered into helping. Tony 10:21, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
- Altered, as per request
- Yes, we can, and will
- Done
- Spotted and removed
- Changed ever so slightly
I know you're under no obligation to spot more problems, but you did say I should let you know if I needed more. I will find more WPians per your request. ....(Complain)(Let us to it pell-mell) 22:37, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
- Several Copyediters are now polishing the article like crazy. Your objections have been adressed. ....(Complain)(Let us to it pell-mell) 23:43, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
- No they haven't! We've just started! :) --P-Chan 23:44, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
- That scares me. But, to tell the truth, it's in pretty good shape. ....(Complain)(Let us to it pell-mell) 03:56, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
- It shouldn't, as this is totally normal stuff. Anyways, I've left a set of questions on the article talk that you might want to look at. They aren't objections, but questions.--P-Chan 04:46, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
- Actually, I should say that I highly encourage you to answer the questions on the talk. The reference checking has not been too fun, as I'm finding factual errors, which is bad. It's ok for now, as long as you answer the questions on the article talk.--P-Chan 07:03, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
- It shouldn't, as this is totally normal stuff. Anyways, I've left a set of questions on the article talk that you might want to look at. They aren't objections, but questions.--P-Chan 04:46, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
- That scares me. But, to tell the truth, it's in pretty good shape. ....(Complain)(Let us to it pell-mell) 03:56, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
- No they haven't! We've just started! :) --P-Chan 23:44, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
- Questions have been answered. ....(Complain)(Let us to it pell-mell) 22:23, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
- I guess when I said "mission accomplished" earlier... I must have spoke too soon. Right now, all the problems that have been explicitly identified by Tony, have been addressed. I'm certain, more copyediting can be done, but, I believe, the major issues have been dealt with. In terms of the issues with accuracy in sourcing, I'll just say that I found some errors and fixed them. Are there anymore comments or objections?--P-Chan 07:11, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
- Support - So much effort went into bringing the article to the current state. All the minor and major corrections have been addressed. Lincher 12:06, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Weak Object for now;Support
- contains an impressive set of cast members is POV
- until he had to sell it to pay for his children's school fees. cite this
- What dates/how long was filming for?
- The rest looks prettty good, though minor things need to be fixed up, such as Laurence Olivier being wikified at least six times.Cvene64 02:36, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
- Fixed
- Cited
- Not documented
- Seven times. Removed two from infobox, but the others are nessasary. ....(Complain)(Let us to it pell-mell) 04:41, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Gmail
Salute to All - I request your vote to make this a featured article. It has undergone an intensive process of expansion, formatting, copyediting and improvement through peer review. I know that the length is 68kb, but there are notable FAs which reach such a length. I welcome all objective advice and criticism to further improve this article. Rama's Arrow 22:37, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
- NOTE: This article has 46KB of prose as of 23 May 2006
- Support per nom. Rama's Arrow 16:49, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
- Comments:
- Per WP:CONTEXT and WP:BTW, years with full dates should be linked; for example, link January 15, 2006, but do not link January 2006.
- As per WP:MOSDATE, dates shouldn't use th; for example, instead of using January 30th was a great day, use January 30 was a great day.
- Images with fair use tags need fair use rationales - please see WP:FUC. Specifically, Image:Sardartime.jpg, Image:Patelcremation.jpg, and Image:Sardar(film).jpg need(s) proper fair use rationales.
- Thanks, AndyZ t 23:32, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
- I believe I've addressed all your points If I missed any points or if there are any outstanding issues, lemme know. Rama's Arrow 23:53, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
- No, years alone (like 1952) should not be linked, but with a date they should be. Dates alone (like January 6) should be linked however. AndyZ t 00:55, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
- Comment, I don't think fair use is justified for the TIME cover or the movie poster since they both do very little to add to the article.--Peta 00:42, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
- Reply Image:Sardartime.jpg "specifically describes the issue in question or its cover" - I believe this is properly justified for use in this article, as the pic is used in an article describing Patel's life and work at the time of the subject of the article in TIME, which discusses Patel's life and background at the time when he is taking charge of India's government with Nehru. Image:Sardar(film).jpg depicts the film representation of Patel, but I can understand why its not "FU" so I'll take it out. Rama's Arrow 00:54, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support. Excellent article. — Ravikiran 04:48, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support - Having read the article few times, I can give it my strong support. It is very polished and nicely referenced. My only comment is regarding the section name "Cabinet mission and Partition." Would something like "Role during partition" work better? --Blacksun 06:43, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support. Well written article. Deserves to be featured. -Ambuj Saxena (talk) 06:45, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support. A Fine article, however, could the references be neatened up a bit? .... 07:33, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support. It went through a good peer review. -- Sundar \talk \contribs 08:18, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support. Followed the article from peer review. Excellent.--Dwaipayan (talk) 14:57, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
- Object for the moment. There's much to admire in the article, but there's an awkwardness in some of the writing that falls short of the requirement for "compelling, even brilliant" prose. In the lead, for example, "accomplish the integration of India" is unidiomatic; "turmoiled regions" is incorrect; "His leadership obtained the swift unification", again, is not quite right, and there's a clash of mood later in that sentence ("Patel would lead initiatives"); and in: "he is also remembered as the "patron saint" of India's civil servants for his defence of them against political attack", whose political attack? Remove or explain. The rest of the text needs a thoughtful copy-edit along these lines. Tony 15:34, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
- Hi Tony - I've copyedited the lead as per your suggestions. I'd like to know if the changes are ok - [9] - and what other stuff needs copyediting. Please respond on the FAC page. Thanks, Rama's Arrow 16:13, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
- I think it is largely a case of different writing styles. I kindav noticed what you are talking about too but I am not sure if different writing style means it is not brilliant prose. --Blacksun 16:28, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
- I've further addressed your points Rama's Arrow 04:33, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
- Comment, I don't think it's just the fair use images that are a problem here. Many of the ones listed as public domain give no rationale for this listing. I think this needs to be cleared up. gren グレン 06:13, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
- Excuse me, but the rationale is exactly the one given in the PD-India description, as per Indian copyright law. Rama's Arrow 06:40, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
- Object. The images have fake copyright tags. I have notified the uploader. Warmongering attitude of Patel is not even touched. Substandard work. Anwar 08:17, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
- Reply. {{PD-India}} holds in the case of at least two of the three photographs cited by Anwar as these photographs could have been taken only before 1947 as Patel died in 1950 at the age of 75. -- Sundar \talk \contribs 08:34, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
- I feel that even the third one is in public domain as it is taken in 1928 and 60 years have passed since it was taken. Anwar, can you elaborate what "Warmongering attitude of Patel" you are talking about. Referenced would be helpful. -Ambuj Saxena (talk) 08:40, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
- The criticism of Sardar Patel in regards to his use of force is present in the article. However, you will not find terms like "warmongering" as they can be hardly considered encyclopedic. Here's to hoping that in the future you will read the article before calling it substandard :). Furthermore, it is rather curious of you to demand exact dates of pictures that could have only been taken before 1947 and hence as Sundar stated qualify for {{PD-India}}. Whats next? do we need to prove that Tagore's pictures qualify for {{PD-India}} even though he died before then? Toodles. --Blacksun 17:29, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
- Note User:Anwar saadat has been opposing all Indian RFAs, FACs, FPCs etc. Most if not all of these objections have been unreasonable. Thus I suggest that his vote be disregarded until he finds a better reason to oppose. The term warmongering can hardly be used in Wikipedia. There are no copyright infringements involved. Nobleeagle (Talk) 08:00, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
- His comments pretty much discredit themselves. - Taxman Talk 15:15, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
- Note User:Anwar saadat has been opposing all Indian RFAs, FACs, FPCs etc. Most if not all of these objections have been unreasonable. Thus I suggest that his vote be disregarded until he finds a better reason to oppose. The term warmongering can hardly be used in Wikipedia. There are no copyright infringements involved. Nobleeagle (Talk) 08:00, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
- Reply all the images in question are justified under PD-India. Criticism of Patel for allegedly compromising the rights of princely states and perceived anti-Muslim bias are in the "Legacy" sections as well as in relevant paras. Rama's Arrow 15:28, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support - Very nice article. Has gone through a good peer review, and covers all aspects of Patel's life in a very nice manner. Is a very good read even at it's size. I fully support it becoming an FA. - Aksi_great (talk) 18:00, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support per above. Very well written article that has evolved into a spectacular work over the course of the last many months. AreJay 02:13, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support very good article. Is informative and that's what articles are meant to be. Nobleeagle (Talk) 08:00, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support. Well done again Nirav.--May the Force be with you! Shreshth91($ |-| ŗ 3 $ |-| ţ |-|) 09:04, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support. Excellent article, very well researched. - Taxman Talk 15:15, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support this well-written article. Saravask 19:42, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support — Great work Rama's Arrow. I'm back! deeptrivia (talk) 04:12, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support - good article. thoroughly researched and discussed... Lost 18:40, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Self-nom, on behalf of the Tropical Cyclone Wikiproject. I worked on this, and I feel it is ready to become the next Tropical Cyclone related Featured Article. I feel it is comprehensive, well written, and, in all, ready. Comments? Hurricanehink (talk) 21:20, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support. Just look at the article and you'll know why I supported it! Icelandic Hurricane #12(talk) 21:24, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support. You Tropical Cyclone Wikiprojecters are getting very good at this FA-standard article malarkey... Batmanand | Talk 22:00, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support though not the most notable hurricane, this should be one of our most notable articles since it is so good. My only issue is that the infobox bites a bit into the storm history section, but I don't think that's a serious problem. Miss Madeline | Talk to Madeline 23:45, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
- I shortened it a bit, but I'm not sure how to remove the "bite". I suppose it isn't too serious of a problem. Hurricanehink (talk) 00:00, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support, very well-done article. -- RattleMan 23:57, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
Object This could be the 10th featured hurricane-related article, how many do you plan on getting featured?Fine Support - a couple of minor things though, 236 million cubic feet needs a conversion and nbsp;, and there should be a comma following states following cities (like a comma after High Island, Texas). AndyZ t 01:10, 22 May 2006 (UTC)- LOL. OK, I got the metrication for cubic feet and added a comma after High Island, Texas for the TS warnings. What is nbsp; though? Hurricanehink (talk) 01:22, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
- "nbsp;" is an HTML command for a non-breaking space. It prevents something attached to it from wrapping to the next line if it's at the very end. -- RattleMan 01:32, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
- Oh. Where is it needed? Hurricanehink (talk) 01:34, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
- Although I've never used it before, I think I know where it goes; between the conversions, like "236 million cubic units" (use edit to check the code). Looks messy, but I think that's it. Try resizing your browser window, and notice that the entire "236 million cubic units" moves to the next line instead of just one word (say, "units") moving to the next line. -- RattleMan 01:43, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
- OK, got it. Hurricanehink (talk) 01:54, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
- See Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)#Units_of_measurement. It only goes right before abbreviations, so there's no need to stick it in "236 million cubic units", but you would use it for "236 million ft³". --Spangineer[es] (háblame) 15:24, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
- OK, got it. Hurricanehink (talk) 01:54, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
- Although I've never used it before, I think I know where it goes; between the conversions, like "236 million cubic units" (use edit to check the code). Looks messy, but I think that's it. Try resizing your browser window, and notice that the entire "236 million cubic units" moves to the next line instead of just one word (say, "units") moving to the next line. -- RattleMan 01:43, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
- Oh. Where is it needed? Hurricanehink (talk) 01:34, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
- "nbsp;" is an HTML command for a non-breaking space. It prevents something attached to it from wrapping to the next line if it's at the very end. -- RattleMan 01:32, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
- If you read Wikipedia:WikiProject Tropical cyclones, you'll see that our evil plot is to overwhelm Wikipedia with tropical cyclone featured articles. —CuiviénenT|C, Monday, 22 May 2006 @ 01:57 UTC
- LOL. OK, I got the metrication for cubic feet and added a comma after High Island, Texas for the TS warnings. What is nbsp; though? Hurricanehink (talk) 01:22, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
- Comment. I'd like to see a longer lead before I support. I'm not sure how it could be expanded, but it seems too short. —CuiviénenT|C, Monday, 22 May 2006 @ 01:57 UTC
- For a storm that killed only one and caused only minimal damage along its path, anything more in the lead would become redundant. Also, Irene was featured with a shorter lead. Hurricanehink (talk) 02:03, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support. Everyking 03:32, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support. On the lead a bit more detail on the storm history would work (thats the one thing Irene's has which Claudette doesn't).--Nilfanion (talk) 07:16, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
- OK, added a bit more storm history. Hurricanehink (talk) 14:02, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
- Comment: "landfall" in the lead should be wikilinked.--ppm 19:25, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
- Thank you, I got that. Hurricanehink (talk) 19:37, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support, I've gone over the article with a fine comb and made sure there weren't any glaring errors. AndyZ: You may want to read the bold text near the top of WP:WPTC... Titoxd(?!? - help us) 19:53, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
- Nice, I'm going to change my vote to object just to stop you! (no just kidding) AndyZ t 21:15, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
- More Comments Well written article, but I have more comments before supporting:
- "There, residents remained calm during the evacuation, and peacefully taped up window" -- the reference provided suggested that they did NOT tape up windows. The sentence is somewhat POV sounding, anyway.
- I removed "peacefully taped up windows". No real need. Hurricanehink (talk)
- "to an area of flower growth" in the section on Aftermath. Is flower growth a technical term, or merely growth of flowers?
- "Also, the storm was indirectly responsible for a death when a tree fell on a person in the cleanup of the storm" -- I actually could not find this info from the reference provided. It talks about one direct death due to tree falling, though.
- Sort of changed it, though I'm not good with synonyms. Hurricanehink (talk)
- It was in the Tropical cyclone report. I clarified the statement. Hurricanehink (talk)
- In general, a light copyedit might be useful. I am not sure, but phrases like "By 2 months later, over 15,000 " (in aftermath) sound a bit suspect style wise.
- "There, residents remained calm during the evacuation, and peacefully taped up window" -- the reference provided suggested that they did NOT tape up windows. The sentence is somewhat POV sounding, anyway.
--ppm 23:49, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
- I fixed that. Can someone else copyedit it? I need an outside eye. Hurricanehink (talk) 00:46, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support; I did some copyediting, and fixed a few things. I'm confused at the inclusion of "This report would suggest the storm was a low-end Category 2 hurricane", when in fact a 95.5mph wind (even if it was sustained) is not a true Cat 2 (which begins at 96mph). Add to that that the report was unofficial and I fail to see the purpose of the sentence. I'll keep looking for wording problems, but this is looking really good. --Spangineer[es] (háblame) 15:34, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
- Whoops, that's supposed to be 96.6 mph in Seadrift. Now it shows the possibility for Cat. 2. Hurricanehink (talk) 16:20, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support -- nice article. I would just request the editors to go through the references once, as some inconsistencies surfaced earlier.--ppm 19:28, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Partial self nomination. This article describes a small valley in Somerset, England. It has undergone a lot of editing during its peer review including turning lists into text, additional sections etc & I now feel meets the FA criteria. Rod 15:14, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
- Comment As of a quick scan, it looks pretty good- could Transport and Schools be expanded a bit more though? Even though it is not quite a city, you might want to use a guideline similar to WP:CITY's template. Thanks, AndyZ t 17:50, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support. Looks good. I've changed the all-caps in the etymology section to italics; that was my only concern. —CuiviénenT|C, Sunday, 21 May 2006 @ 20:58 UTC
Thanks for the feedback. There isn't really much else to add on Transport and Schools and when you edit the page you get the warning "This page is 33 kilobytes long. This may be longer than is preferable;" Thanks for the edits on the etymology section I didn't really know how to represent the other languages etc. Rod 18:48, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support: Excellent, excellent work. - Tutmosis 18:49, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
A very trivial point, but the "include/includes/including X, Y, Z" began to grate by the time I reached the end. I counted 26 occurrences. Assuming this quibble is addressed,Support. Angus McLellan (Talk) 10:04, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
- I've changed the majority of "include/includes/including X, Y, Z" & hope this makes the article easier to read. Rod 11:40, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
- Looks fine, quibble withdrawn. Angus McLellan (Talk) 13:25, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Minor Object I think this is a fine article except for one thing: sequencing of "History" and "Natural History". First, I suggest moving Geology to the beginning of Natural History as it occurs first in time. Likewise, "History" specifically talks about humans, but the title doesn't say that. Also, why is "Natural History" near the end. It seems to me it should be at the beginning. Can something be done with all this? My suggestion would be to have only one "History" section with subsections in this order: Geology, Flora, Fauna, Human habitation, and Field patterns. The titles of the sections aren't the issue (change them to whatever if you want), it's the organization and sequence that I have an issue with. Other than this, it's a fine article. Rlevse 12:16, 24 May 2006 (UTC)- Support now that structure and ref numbering are fixed. Rlevse 20:44, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
I would agree that the history timeline you suggest is more logical & have rearranged the sections as you suggest & have tried to re sort all of the references to make them work but now have number 7's in the text & can't work out why. Rod 14:43, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
- Your Darwin ref was orphaned and causing problems. This was because it was at the bottom and had line spaces between it and the previous refs. The ref/note systems does not like spaces between ref lines. I moved it to where I thought it should go. Aside from that, you should look over your ref numbering as I think it may be awry from the section moving. If you need help fixing this, leave a msg on my talk page. Rlevse 15:17, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
I've now run User:Cyde/Ref converter & it seems to have resolved the problem of reference numberingRod 20:07, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
- Support. Rodw's being extremely responsive to peer review comments helped make that process very helpful here. The writing is also very good. - Taxman Talk 15:18, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
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