Talk:Flag of Northern Ireland

Union Flag vs St Patrick's Saltire in the lead

I don't understand this revert. Both the Union Flag and St Patrick's Saltire are both in the lead section, and the Union Flag is displayed first. According tho the article the "St Patrick's Saltire is used the by government to represent Northern Ireland when a uniquely Northern Irish flag is required" so the one that represents Northern Ireland should be displayed first, not the one that represents the whole UK. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 19:59, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

Thinking about it again even though it isn't officially the flag of Northern Ireland I think the citation to Hansard is probably enough to justify its standing at the top of the article, so I'll withdraw my objection. Dmcq (talk) 22:50, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

The Union Flag is flown from government buildings in Northern Ireland. Saint Patrick's Saltire is used the by government to represent Northern Ireland when a uniquely Northern Irish flag is required.

Could this be used? Dn9ahx (talk) 13:00, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

I don't think sticking them side by side is a good idea, it cuts down the text space and on a handheld one might just be stuck on top of the other anyway. What's the real problem? The text at the very start of the article explains the situation and the text below the flag explains the situation and it is explained further down in the body. If a minister can stand up in parliament and say that St Patrick's Flag shall be flown for Northern Ireland alongside the flags for England, Scotland and Wales it is pretty much official whatever about heralds or whatever for it to be 'official' I'd have thought. Dmcq (talk) 13:52, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Thinking again about it, I'm not all that certain one way or the other, so I've put a calling notice at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration#Which flag first in lead of Flag of Northern Ireland. Dmcq (talk) 14:04, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

The one that represents Northern Ireland should take precedence over the one that represents the whole UK. Even if the Northern Ireland one is only semi-official, one specifically represents Northern Ireland. The other does not. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 15:28, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Inclusion of Irish flag

I really can't see a reason for including the Irish flag in the Flag of Northern Ireland article. It is reasonable enough in the Northern Ireland flags issue article but it just isn't a contender as being the flag of Northern Ireland. It is simply an identify marker for nationalists. The union flag is there because it is currently the official flag but it could be removed if there was some sort of official flag for Northern Ireland. As it says in the article 'Nationalists pointed to this to argue that the use of the Union Flag for official purposes should be restricted, or that the Irish tricolour should be flown alongside the British flag on government buildings.' They weren't saying it was the flag of Northern Ireland. Dmcq (talk) 12:20, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

There is no flag as there are in England, Wales and Ireland, but there are different flags used for different purposes. The article includes it as such with no claim as to official status. ----Snowded ^TALK 12:26, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

That's for the article Northern Ireland flags issue. This article is about flag of Northern Ireland. All the flags shown have some sort of official recognition as flags of Northern Ireland. Are you saying the two articles should be merged? Dmcq (talk) 12:31, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

No ----Snowded ^TALK 12:32, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

So what point do you have to put forward for showing the Irish flag here besides that some people in Northern Ireland wave it around as a mark of identity? I've show they are not saying it is the flag of Northern Ireland. Dmcq (talk) 12:35, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

I think to say that some people "wave it around" is derogatory and trivialises the issue. However to answer your question the section in which it appears opens with "In Northern Ireland, some members from each of the unionist and nationalist communities use flags to declare their political allegiances and to mark territory". So its more than appropriate to show one used by a significant section the population ----Snowded ^TALK 12:40, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

I think it is being shown too much as a flag of official standing along with the others rather than in the context you are saying. I would be happier with a picture of it being flown like the saltire in the photo below, would that be okay with you? Dmcq (talk) 12:49, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

I don't see the need for that, the context of use is clear ----Snowded ^TALK 12:51, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

There isn't any official "Flag of Northern Ireland" at present, so the article deals with all the flags used in the region to represent either the region on its own, or as a component of larger entities of which it is part (the UK, Ulster, Ireland). The Irish flag has no less or more legal standing in Northern Ireland than the Stormont banner. Brocach (talk) 12:53, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Well the saltire is recognized in parliament as what should be put up if they really need something besides the union flag because the other parts of the UK are represented, and the union flag is the official flag to represent Northern Ireland on its own. The article also shows the historical flag plus the flag it was based on. Those seem reasonably official to me. The union flag is not there as being for the wider area. Putting in the Irish flag is no more reasonable than the EC flag would be reasonable in the article about the flag of Ireland. I take it that just showing a photo is being rejected? Dmcq (talk) 13:09, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

The official question has been done to death over the years. The context of the use is fine, putting in a photo is trivial, I certainly reject it ----Snowded ^TALK 13:19, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

In any case the saltire has no such recognition; check the two Hansard refs. A junior minister in the Thatcher government stated in 1986 that it was to be used on buildings in Whitehall during state visits. Parliament took no position. Another junior minister later expressly stated that the saltire had not been adopted as the flag of Northern Ireland. It has no more legal standing than the Ulster banner or the tricolour. Brocach (talk) 13:26, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

I think it is a bit ingenuous to say it has no more official standing than the ulster banner or tricolour if a minister of the crown says it is to be used on official occasions. It may not be the official flag but if you are trying to say the tricolour has some official standing in Northern Ireland as its flag you must be going for some very delicate shades of grey as well as black and white. Dmcq (talk) 13:33, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

If there is no official flag would you then support redirecting this article to the flags issue article and merging in whatever extra there is? Dmcq (talk) 13:37, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

I did not say, nor try to say, that the tricolour had official status in the North. Official status is not the only, nor even the most important, criterion. I don't support a merger of the articles. Brocach (talk) 14:30, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Were you saying the tricolour was a flag that represented Northern Ireland then? Or what were you saying about it that made it relevant to the topic of the article? And if there is no flag for Northern Ireland why shouldn't the articles be merged 0- after all none of the flags then have real standing as representing Northern Ireland. Dmcq (talk) 16:33, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

I cannot think of ANY reason why ............no.........tried again, still can't ............ the flag of Ireland should feature in this article. The fact that some people fly it outside their house or wherever is not relevant at all. I fly the flag of the Central African Republic outside my house, but I don't see it featuring in the article on Flag of England. SixtyNineSixtySix (talk) 18:52, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

At the risk of repeating myself, the flags featured here all represent the particular piece of ground, either on its own or as part of a larger unit. There is no single flag that represents this territory; those mentioned here all do or have done, to various audiences in various contexts. Maybe 40% of the people who live in Northern Ireland regard the Irish flag as their flag; that's a pretty good reason for including it. Brocach (talk) 19:11, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

No, it's not a good reason for including it. That flag IS NOT a flag of Northern Ireland, never has been and never will be. All the other flags on the page are either current or historic and directly pertain to the province. That's why they are there and why the tricolour shouldn't be. No problem with it featuring in the Flag debate article though. SixtyNineSixtySix (talk) 19:16, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

There doesn't seem to be a consensus forming about this topic, any objections to an RfC or is there a preferred method of decision? I think the options are a) keep as is b) have a photo c) remove the flag d) merge with the flags issue article. Can we cut the options down to the more likely? Dmcq (talk) 19:36, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Before I get much older I'd like to know what difference a photo would make. Brocach (talk) 19:47, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

I think a photo in the section 'Displaying flags' would illustrate displaying flags and it should be possible to have some wording under it linking it to the flags issue described in the section. Just sticking in the flag without the context indicates that one is trying to display what the flag looks like in a way relevant to the overall topic of 'flag of Northern Ireland' rather than that section. 20:11, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Here's a few exmples

File:Peadar O'Donnells and Gweedore Bar, Derry, September 2010 (05).JPG a collection of flags including the Irish flag

File:Dungloe Bar, Derry - Londonderry - geograph.org.uk - 174228.jpg Four Irish flags outside apub

File:Artillery Flats, Belfast, July 2010 (03).JPG Flag with slogan

File:Sinn_Fein_Advice_Centre,_Castlewellan,_December_2009.JPG showing the political angle

File:Tricolours in the Croft estate,Carnlough,County Antrim.jpg two flags outside an estate

how about one of those? Dmcq (talk) 20:41, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Disagree and as far as I can see other than you and the most recent sock (6966) who's IP was blocked everyone is OK with the current contextual description and use ----Snowded ^TALK 21:32, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Well since you won't engage in a meaningful way except to revert changes I'll raise a RfC. Dmcq (talk) 21:50, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Fully engaged and following WP:BRD, you just disagree. ----Snowded ^TALK 21:53, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Reverting just on the basis of BRD and leaving out the D part is not complying with BRD. Dmcq (talk) 23:07, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Nothing at all there to explain why a photo makes any difference. I could add photos of bedraggled Ulster banners outside public toilets if that would help, but I can't think how it would. Brocach (talk) 22:02, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

I have explained again in the RfC below if you'd like to contribute there. Dmcq (talk) 23:07, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Caption to "St Patrick's saltire" pic...

...currently reads "St Patrick's Saltire is sometimes used by the British government to represent Northern Ireland when a uniquely Northern Irish flag is required." I edited this down to "St Patrick's Saltire is sometimes used by the British government to represent Northern Ireland" because it has never been suggested, outside this caption, that this saltire is "a uniquely Northern Irish flag", and because the same British government stated (in a ref provided on the article page) that the saltire is not the flag of Northern Ireland. This seems to me to be a straightforward improving edit and I don't understand why I have been reverted by SixtyNineSixtySix who gave no reason for reverting. Discuss. Brocach (talk) 20:00, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Can't say I'm fussed either way. Having both 'sometimes' and describing the circumstances seemed overkill to me but it doesn't bother me but I agree that having just sometimes on its own seems less informative than the other part. So yes I'd prefer the longer version before the change. Dmcq (talk) 20:16, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Me neither. I asked for Talk in case anyone else was bothered. SixtyNineSixtySix (talk) 20:48, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

As neither are "fussed either way" I'll restore that edit. Maybe next time, 6966 or whoever you are representing here, you could take the trouble to state a better reason for reverting a change that you're not fussed about than "in case anyone else was bothered". Brocach (talk) 21:39, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Wording on saltire

I thought the following para a bit clumsy in that it equated a flag to "countries": "The Saint Patrick's Saltire is sometimes used by the government to represent Northern Ireland alongside the other countries of the United Kingdom, and is the centrepiece of the badge of the Police Service of Northern Ireland." I amended it to "The Saint Patrick's Saltire is sometimes used by the government to represent Northern Ireland alongside the flags of England, Scotland and Wales, and is the centrepiece of the badge of the Police Service of Northern Ireland." This seems to me to be a straightforward improving edit and I don't understand why I have been reverted by SixtyNineSixtySix who gave no reason for reverting. Discuss. Brocach (talk) 20:03, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Not a strong feeling again but yes I preferred the more specific version listing the countries. Dmcq (talk) 20:20, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

This one I do have a problem with. It seems designed to remove the suggestion that Northern Ireland is a country. I'm ok with province personally, but country is also acceptable and removing these references is controversial, so best leave it as it is. SixtyNineSixtySix (talk) 20:55, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

RfC: Should the Flag of Northern Ireland article show the flag of Ireland?

Should the article show the Irish flag in the section Flag of Northern Ireland#Displaying_flags? This issue was discussed above in #Inclusion of Irish flag but there was no consensus. Options I can see are

1. Leave the section with the flag as is because many people use it to show their identity.
2. Show a photo of a flag with the Irish flag in it illustrating the displaying flags and the flags issue (some possibilities listed above).
3. Remove the flag as not a flag of Northern Ireland and so not relevant to the article topic.
4. Merge the article into the Northern Ireland flags issue as there is no official flag specifically for Northern Ireland.

Which options would you agree or disagree with and why thanks. Dmcq (talk) 22:09, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

• Option 1. The Flag of Northern Ireland article basically says that Northern Ireland has no flag. It then goes on to discuss flags which routinely are or have been displayed in NI. The tricolour is unquestionably a flag that is routinely displayed, therefore it should be left as it is. Merging, while it may seem an obvious solution, is not ideal (a) because a reader wanting to know about a flag does not usually want to know about an "issue", and (b) because the Issue article should be (although it's not; it's a mess of an article!) about actual debates, disputes and riots over flags, not factual information about the flags themselves. Scolaire (talk) 22:43, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Would you support merging the current issues article into this one then? Dmcq (talk) 08:01, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

No, I would support retaining the flag article as is and improving the issue article. Scolaire (talk) 21:22, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

• Any of 2,3,4. Nobody is claiming the Irish flag is the flag of Northern Ireland or represents Northern Ireland. As the article says ' Irish nationalists and republicans fly the Irish tricolour to show their support for a United Ireland' Nowhere does it say that the flag represents Northern Ireland in any way. I'd be happy with a photo in the section about displaying flags because it would illustrate the subject of the section and that's what images should do, and an Irish flag in that context is fine by me to show there is a flags issue. Dmcq (talk) 23:01, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
• Option 1 per discussion above and Scolaire ----Snowded ^TALK 03:34, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
• Option 1 Scolaire as ever explains it well. The article needs fleshed out a bit to explain the background to those unfamiliar with the topic but I don't see anything there that doesn't accurately and neutrally report the reality on the ground. Valenciano (talk) 22:46, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

There is no explanation of why showing the flag as a flag is a better illustration than a photo for the displaying flags and flags issue section. Scolaire complains about the issues article just showing flags rather than dealing with the topic and discussing the issue and yet that is what is being advocated here in the section referring to that article. Dmcq (talk) 10:02, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

Dmcq, you opted to start an RfC when there was a lively discussion taking place. Please allow the RfC to proceed and don't try to turn it back into a discussion. That is only defeating your own purpose. Those who !vote know their own minds and do not need to justify their reasoning further. Scolaire (talk) 10:11, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

Do not engage in personal attacks. I raised the RfC as there was no general consensus here and looked like little prospect of one or of any progress. People are supposed to justify their reasons in a WP:RfC. The C stands for 'comment' not just saying yes or no. Dmcq (talk) 13:51, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

No personal attack intended. I have explained on your user talk page. Scolaire (talk) 17:41, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

Simply enough because the article speaks about flags in both official and unofficial use in Northern Ireland. In that context an illustration of the flag of Ireland seems justified. Valenciano (talk) 06:19, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

• Option 3, per Dmcq. — Jon C.^ॐ 18:56, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
  • I could live with option 2 as a second-best, too. — Jon C.^ॐ 08:36, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
• Change the article name to Flags used in Northern Ireland (well one can hope) 85.210.102.71 (talk) 21:06, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
• Option 3, It never had any status in NI and shouldn't be on here. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 15:54, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
• Option 1 per Scolaire's reasoning. ÓCorcráin (talk) 19:43, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
• Option 1 as per previous comments. Brocach (talk) 20:15, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
• Option 3, but failing that, Option 2. The Irish flag has no official standing in Northern Ireland (nor has it ever had), so it shouldn't be shown formally in a box. However, it is flown extensively in Northern I, so a photo of it, preferably alongside other flags, and in the appropriate section, would be a good compromise. The Roman Candle (talk) 07:48, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
• Option 1 or 2 AND reverse 4 - Northern Ireland flags issue should be merged into this page. Having a "flags issue" page is unusual for disputed territories. Usually flag debates are described on the flag of XXXX page. NickCT (talk) 22:20, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
• Option 3 or failing that option 2 - the flag doesn't represent Northern Ireland as an entity in any shape or form, and Irish republicans wouldn't want it to either - the flag represents the Republic of Ireland and for republicans an all island state that doesn't exist. Northern Ireland doesn't exist to Irish republicans. In response to NickCT, Northern Ireland is not a disputed territory as no other state lays claim to it - the Republic of Ireland signed away it's claim in 1998. Mabuska ^(talk) 21:11, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

• Having actually looked at the image I in fact may lean more along the lines of option 2 as it would fit better in my opinion than the current image, and it does have place in that section. However I think the explaination of the flag's meaning should be omitted and left to the actual Irish tricolour article or a more indepth explaination given of how for unionists it represents republican terror and also sectarianism in contrast to what it is meant to mean. Mabuska ^(talk) 21:18, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Just looking roughly at it but 6 for option 1 and 5 for anything other? No consensus for any view so where does that leave the situation? Mabuska ^(talk) 22:45, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

No consensus for change as it stands ----Snowded ^TALK 02:56, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

I do not see that as a convincing consensus, if there is disagreement about inclusion of something in Wikipedia the usual action is to remove the item. Wikipedia is not a democracy. I would like a couple more people along so as to make it fairly certain otherwise I think it should wait for arbitration by an uninvolved admin. Would you like an admin to come along now? Dmcq (talk) 07:58, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

Consensus is needed for change - inclusion or exclusion. At the moment the argument appears to be between "its used extensively so it should be there" and variations of "Northern Ireland has nothing to do with the Irish State so it shouldn't". Use tends to dominate over ideology in Wikipedia. But an uninvolved admin should close ----Snowded ^TALK 09:03, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

If consensus is needed for change then the status quo from about 2007 - inclusion of the Irish flag - prevails. Brocach (talk) 15:33, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

I have asked for someone to come along at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Requests for closure#Talk:Flag of Northern Ireland#RfC: Should the Flag of Northern Ireland article show the flag of Ireland? Dmcq (talk) 12:41, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

It always makes me laugh when I see the word "consensus" used in connection with any Irish-related matters on Wikipedia; you're not going to get it! Face it guys, the Irish articles are fixed in a perspex mould for ever and a day. This is exemplified by Brocach's comment mentioning 2007. The point he makes is, of course, totally irrelevant in Wikipedia but there you go. With Irish articles one can't even get a compromise - the photo of the tricolour is, to my mind, an excellent compromise - but it's a "No" to that as well. Having said all this, I have noticed a couple of traits characteristic of editors to Irish articles. One is to make a very bold (pov type) change in the hope that it will go un-noticed, and the other is to build up a pov bit by bit using small but subtle changes which are trivial in themselves but which add up to the restating of some position or other. The Roman Candle (talk) 15:56, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

Brocach's statement is perfectly valid and logical as far as it goes. If you assume that premise then the conclusion follows. Dmcq (talk) 17:24, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

I doubt that Irish articles are any more or less susceptible to editing than articles on any other country well known to English-language WP editors. There's always a bit of to-and-froing, but a broadly agreed core content emerges and develops. It is hardly irrelevant to note that the flag has been a stable feature of the article for 7 years in relation to a bold proposal to drop it. And I pleaded a while back for an explanation of why a photo of a flag is somehow "a compromise" on including a plain graphic; I still don't understand what difference it makes. I'd be happy to have all the flag graphics substituted or supplemented by photos of them hanging off lampposts. Brocach (talk) 21:51, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

I've explained a couple of times but I'll repeat myself. The picture there is a picture of a flag design. A photo of one flying in Northern Ireland would be an illustration of the flags issue showing people feel strongly about flying it. It would illustrate the topic of the section it is in rather than the overall topic. It would not be an illustration of the flag itself. An illustration of a flag shows the correct dimensions pattern and colours and nothing else irrelevant to that. Dmcq (talk) 22:40, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your patience. Call me stupid but I still don't get it. Should we have photos of all the flags in situ, since each one has a constituency that feels strongly about flying it (or feels strongly about dangling it limply 24/7 halfway up a lamppost until it rots to nothing), and/or should we have simple graphics of them all? What is the difference between a photo and a graphic representation, and should one or some flags be treated differently, if so why? Brocach (talk) 22:51, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

Well others seem to find the distinction easy and I really don't see how I can explain better so sorry, better just let an admin come along and close. Perhaps someone else can have a go. Dmcq (talk) 13:48, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

I think the crux of it is that many believe there should be a distinction between the flags which are official (the Union flag) or semi-official (the St Pat's saltire) and the ones which are flown unofficially by various groups (paramilitary flags, the ROI tricolour, etc.) around NI. There is a separate article about the flags issue. — Jon C.^ॐ 15:18, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Yes, that's it exactly. An unofficial flag such as the tricolour should not be shown in the article in a formal setting, but a photo of it flying would be useful in the discussion about other flags seen in the province. I still think there's an opportunity for this option to be brought forward. See Flag of Cyprus where there's a similar issue. The Roman Candle (talk) 15:43, 3 May 2013 (UTC)