Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Edna Jeffrey

Edna Jeffrey

Edna Jeffrey (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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Non-notable businessperson and author of a non-notable novel —teb728 t c 21:45, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

• Delete I was unable to find significant coverage in reliable sources, either for this person or her novel. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 21:58, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of California-related deletion discussions. czar · · 00:02, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Businesspeople-related deletion discussions. czar · · 00:03, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

• Delete. The entire article is incredibly trivial and banal, with notability not even asserted. Just a lady who worked in a real-estate sales office. Fails WP:AUTHOR, WP:BK, WP:BIO, WP:RS, WP:CORP, WP:GNG, and any other relevant policy you to care to name. Qworty (talk) 02:53, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

• Keep article. By deleting, we would promote criteria, based on which countless articles should be deleted. In my view, the article meets the criteria for what is generally accepted as notable in Wikipedia. The newly-established article has now been cropped and can be cropped and/or improved further, for it to more precisely focus on key matters, such as:

1. Edna Jeffrey was for decades the co-owner of the famous Finnila's Finnish Baths on San Francisco's Market Street. Finnila's was a popular and important element in the history of San Francisco's Castro District. Edna Jeffrey is also co-owner of the Noe & Market Center on San Francisco's Market Street, and she was a long-time co-owner of a part of the property of Cafe Flore in San Francisco. Both Cafe Flore and Finnila's Finnish Baths have been San Francisco's popular "landmark" type businesses for long, Finnila's operating in San Francisco's Castro District alone for over seven decades, and continuing thereafter on Taraval Street.

Among recognition, the two businesses have been granted the "The Best" award by San Francisco Bay Guardian in total at least eight times. Still shortly before closing its popular Market Street location in San Francisco in the 1980s, Finnila's Finnish Baths - owned by Edna Jeffrey and his brother Alfred Finnila - was awarded with the title "The Best" two times in row by the popular bi-weekly and free San Francisco Bay Area entertainment magazine San Francisco Bay Guardian. According to the paper, Finnila's was "The Best Sauna and Massage Parlor" in the San Francisco Bay Area in 1983 and 1984.

2. Edna Jeffrey is the author of the novel Till I'm with You Again, a movie screenplay for which has recently been finished by the many times Emmy-nominated Thom Racina - and, a movie production is now under works. -- Rubert ABC (talk) 22:45, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

In response to Rubert ABC, I will not express an opinion about the notability of the businesses, but I will say that notability is not inherited. The owner of a notable business is not automatically notable, even if the business won a couple of local awards. As for the novel and the screenplay, I can find no coverage whatsoever of either in independent, reliable sources. I see discussion on a website controlled by the screenwriter, but that doesn't count, as it isn't independent. The third source, a church website, doesn't even mention her. Your statement that countless other Wikipedia articles ought to be deleted is no doubt true, and we delete many articles about non-notable topics from Wikipedia every day. The existence of such articles is no defense for this article, because the purpose of this debate is to make a decision about this article alone. So I ask you, where is the significant coverage of Edna Jeffrey in independent, reliable sources? I just don't see it so far, and without it, the article will almost certainly be deleted. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 23:51, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

I do not know what "discussion on a website controlled by the screenwriter" you are referring to. I believe definitions about "independent" vary in these type of contexts. How do you define "independent" in your question? All websites are produced by an individual or a group of people. Do you mean to imply that the website used as a source in the Edna Jeffrey article is controlled by the screenwriter? No such indication can be detected. Thus, can we agree that the website is independent? In my view, the source is fine for what it is used for. However, I believe the church source is a relic from the section which discussed Little Scandinavia and how a lot of Finns came to rebuilt San Francisco after the 1906 earthquake. That section was removed. For me that link did not even work right now - so, I could not check what exactly is stated there. -- Rubert ABC (talk) 09:10, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

I agree with the point made above, that notability is WP:NOTINHERITED. Therefore it doesn't matter how notable the business may have been--the notability does not extend to the subject of this article. Qworty (talk) 11:36, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Keep article - the Edna Jeffrey novel and movie production links on this page did not show up until now, due to misspelling. An Amazon book link was added here also. Although the novel was written for motion picture purposes and it therefore was published in limited print and with not big marketing process, it presents a remarkable story which has created interest in Hollywood experts. A movie screenplay from the novel has been produced by a notable Hollywood screenwriter, and a movie planning is far in works. Edna Jeffrey did not only inherit Finnila's Finnish Baths. Eager to help, she began assisting at the front counter of Finnila's when she was only five years old, greatly contributing to the success of the bathhouse throughout her adolescence, and later on as the co-owner for decades of both the bathhouse and the Noe & Market Center complex, which was built in place of the old bathhouse. Edna Jeffrey remains a majority owner of the new building today. -- Rubert ABC (talk) 14:20, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

• Redirect to Finnila's Finnish Baths for now until separate notability can be established. Viriditas (talk) 02:09, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

  I second the motion by Viriditas, unless others will already agree to accept enough notability having been established on the above given grounds. -- Rubert ABC (talk) 14:20, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

• Comment FWIW the subject is not mentioned once on the Finnila's Finnish Baths page. J04n(talk page) 11:19, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

  I included Jeffrey as owner of the bathhouse. ~ BjornTroms (talk)

• Don't delete: Jeffrey needs to be in Wikipedia, and her novel too. ~ BjornTroms (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:36, 4 May 2013 (UTC) — BjornTroms (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
• Week Delete possibly WP:TOOSOON. Screenplays often aren't filmed, but if it is, maybe... Barney the barney barney (talk) 18:19, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
• Keep Appears marginally notable. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:36, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
• Response to Rubert ABC You ask what I mean by "a website controlled by the screenwriter". I am referring to the current references #1 and #4 in the article. This website is indisputably controlled by the screenwriter. If the movie is made and does well, the screenwriter and the author will benefit financially. Accordingly, these two references are not independent and are utterly useless to establish notability, as Wikipedia defines that term. Reference #2 is the Amazon.com web page for the book. Amazons makes money selling books, and sales listings are by definition not independent and are worthless for establishing notability. Reference #3 is a dead link, and even when live, was not independent. Reference #5, as already pointed out, is a church website that does not mention her. It is completely worthless. Reference #6 is a Bay Guardian article published in 1984. Although offline sources are allowed, this one is pretty much unverifiable. It lacks article title, author, date or any indication of the content of the article. It is dubious, given the utter lack of online independent sources giving significant coverage to Edna Jeffrey. Reference #7 is an author website that doesn't mention Jeffrey or her business ventures at all. Reference #8 is a Finiish Google Books link that shows that a novel was published by another author that mentions a business that Jeffrey co-owned, but does not mention her. In summary, after this lengthy debate, not a single solitary reliable, independent source has been produced by Rubert ABC, or any other editor recommending "Keep", that gives significant coverage to Edna Jeffrey. Feel free to prove me wrong. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 04:56, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

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Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Deadbeef 21:58, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

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• Redirect to Finnila's Finnish Baths per Viriditas.Truth or consequences-2 (talk) 11:20, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

• Keep article. Response to Cullen 328: You suggest that the website used as a reference might be "controlled" by the screenwriter. With no proof or indication of such control, this is not a valid reason for deletion of the article.

Proof of contrary: Out of billions of Google picture search results for the term "film entertainment", a majority (4/7) of the first row of results connect to websites of the publisher used as a reference in the Edna Jeffrey article (without quote signs, 30% of the first three rows of pictures connect to that publisher). Furthermore, a search engine check shows that although that entertainment network reports about Edna Jeffrey's novel and the screenplay by Thom Racina and the movie under works, no indication of the network being in any way "controlled" by Mr. Racina can be detected. Racina appears to be no affiliate or partner of the network.

Using an issue of San Francisco Bay Guardian as a reference for "The Best" awards granted by the paper is appropriate, and the year and the number of the issue discussing "The Best" awards in question has been provided. Also, a picture of the 1984 "The Best" award granted to Finnila's by Bay Guardian was added in references. The Amazon.com link was not intended for showing of notability, but simply for additional verification of the novel having been authored by Edna Jeffrey. The broken link to the screenwriter biography was fixed. -- Rubert ABC (talk) 17:35, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Authors-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 00:19, 8 May 2013 (UTC)