Talk:Commodore 64

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Bias against Apple?

It seems that "when compared to contemporary systems such as the Apple II, at a price that was well below the circa US$ 1200 demanded by Apple." is biased against Apple. Should this be corrected? 173.167.18.97 (talk) 13:16, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Reason for using short commands

I was a Commodore 64 programmer back in '83 & '84.

Using short commands (usually the first letter, then shift and the second) it was possible to make BASIC lines more than two display rows long. The C64 could not parse more than two display rows when the subsequent code was LISTed.[25]

We use to call this "programming with tokens" or "tokenized programming". The reason we did it was to save memory. Although the C64 had a whopping 64K of memory, we were finding more creative ways of filling that memory with larger and larger programs. Programming by using tokens saved a lot of memory on the device as it didn't have to store the full text for a command but only the 2-byte token for any command. It was also why we avoided the use of all spaces and combined as many programming commands in a single line as we could get away with. Although it made the code almost impossible to read and maintain it saved precious memory that we had to preserve like our very last drop of water in the desert. In later years they came up with BASIC compilers to save even more memory than this tokenized approach.

207.12.237.2 (talk) 23:31, 26 November 2008 (UTC)Mark Lawler

The Commodore 64 stores BASIC instructions in memory as tokens anyway, regardless of how they are written in. It's a basic principle on how the whole BASIC interpreter works in the first place. If the instructions were actually stored letter by letter the interpreter wouldn't understand them. Using the "shift-second letter" trick only speeds up typing, and allows writing longer lines. It has no effect on memory usage or execution speed. Avoiding spaces does help, however. 194.100.223.164 (talk) 10:50, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

I'd read that the shortcut typing was not an intended feature, but rather the exploitation of a bug. The typing of the shifted character was sufficient to create a match with the nearest item in the lookup table of commands. WHPratt (talk) 14:54, 26 February 2009 (UTC)WHPratt

It was merely a feature of the variety of Microsoft Basic that was used. But all Microsoft BASIC chips had tokenised commands using two characters ; that's how they managed to squeeze a whole BASIC interpreter into an 8 kb ROM.123.3.16.124 (talk) 13:38, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Most popular?

I find it hard to believe the first line of this article: "The Commodore 64 is the best-selling single personal computer model of all time." The article referenced by the footnote makes the same claim but doesn't back it up with any numbers. Shouldn't a cite for that claim include proof? Mick 05:13, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

There should indeed be proof, but if you think about this logically the statement is almost certainly true. Prior to the explosion in IBM PC compatible sales, computers were proprietary and thus there were far fewer manufacturers than there are today, each with a larger share of the market. The production run of the C64 was 7 years - computers today are lucky if they last a year. A large market share for a long period will set an impressive record - one that's unlikely to be broken unless something like the OLPC really takes off. Terryhfs (talk) 15:41, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Not necessarily: for the US market that's certainly true, and the Europe specific contemporaries almost certainly didn't out strip it, but there's also the Asian/Japanese market to consider which has almost no presence of western computers, but a massive domestic market. You had the MSX (which even extended to Europe with significant popularity), but the PC8801 series dominated the 8-bit computer market in Japan followed by the PC-9801. So figures regarding those are needed as well unless the C64's claim is made more specific to exclude those. (with the MSX and PC-8801 series you both had a number of revisions and upgrades compared to the C64 which went through only minor changes aside from board revisions and cost reduction; albeit it would be no different from including the 400+800+XL+XE computers when comparing figures for the Atari 8-bits) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kool kitty89 (talk • contribs) 18:07, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

I think these references to the C64 being the "best-selling computer of all time" should be removed. If you look at the number of iPhones sold, iPads sold, XBox 360s sold, PS3s sold, they all outsell the C64, they are all computers, the Xbox 360 allows you to build your own software on it using the XNA program, the PS3 had the "Other OS" feature, and the iOS devices are quickly replacing traditional desktops. According to the Wiki article on Computers, they are a "... general purpose device that can be programmed to carry out a finite set of arithmetic or logical operations." That can perfectly describe a device like the iPad or XBox or PS3. No one ever considered the C64 a serious computer anyways, it was underpowered for its time, and was generally used as a gaming console more than anything. The C64 back then really is what something like the Raspberry Pi is now. Nabeel_co (talk) 05:53, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

So, if no one has any objections in the next couple days, I'm going to go ahead and replace the line "During the C64's lifetime, sales totalled between 12.5 and 17 million units, making it the best-selling single personal computer model of all time." with something along the lines of "During the C64's lifetime, sales totalled between 12.5 and 17 million units. While often cited as the 'best-selling single personal computer model of all time', with the advent of mobile computing in the form of smartphones, and tablets, it is no longer true, as many different computing devices have outsold the C64 since it's initial sale.". Nabeel_co (talk) 09:54, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

I object. The C64 was a general purpose personal computer, not a specialized media player, or phone, or embedded system. Wishy-washy "computing devices" dilutes the importance of the statement. The significance is that the home computer was a whole new category of consumer electronics. We bought 64's *because* they were computers, not because they fit in our pockets. Everybody already had a phone or some kind of music box...but the idea of having an "electronic brain" in the house was quite novel at the time. I think the statement as it is, is the most accurate and cnocise description. A phone is not a personal computer. (Do any of these modern novelties even hang around long enogh to sell 10 million units? Don't they bring out a new model every 90 days or so? )--Wtshymanski (talk) 14:40, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Agree with Wtshymanski, for the same reasons. We are talking specifically about personal computers, not devices that contain computing abilities - otherwise we could (facetiously - yet correctly) say that microwave ovens have outsold the C=64, or that the Toyota Corolla has, because it contains an ECU.

Also, I beg to differ with the OP's comment that "No one ever considered the C64 a serious computer anyways" - many people did just that, and some still do, regardless of computational power. Chaheel Riens (talk) 15:19, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

The Commodore 64 was the Ford Model T of personal computers. There were a wide variety of applications available, see this 1983 advertisement. [1] I have known dozens of programmers that got their start on the Commodore 64. BASIC language programming was a common skill for computers users in the 1980s. Jim Butterfield wrote the classic book "Machine Language for the Commodore 64, 128, and Other Commodore Computers." How many users write programs for an iPhone or XBOX? -- SWTPC6800 (talk) 18:50, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

A hell of a lot more people write applications for mobile devices then did for the C64 I can guarantee that. And to say that a Smartphone or a tablet isn't a personal computer for general use is insanity. The average person spends more time on their smartphone or tablet now a days then their computers. You are applying 1980s logic in 2012. The article is about a 1980s computer, it's not supposed to be written in 1980s style.

It's like you are saying that the Meridian PBX was the best selling PBX, and now that people do PBXs through software, such as Asterisk, Meridian cant be outsold. The way the same tasks are done have changed. You cant apply the same logic and rational used 30 years ago on todays technology, or an article written in todays age.

Also, you can't compare the auto market with the computer and electronics market, there are more people who buy electronics world wide then cars.

And for your reference, the definition of a personal computer from wikipedia: "A personal computer (PC) is any general-purpose computer whose size, capabilities, and original sales price make it useful for individuals, and which is intended to be operated directly by an end-user with no intervening computer operator."

Smartphones, tablets, and whatnot all perfectly fit with this definition. From any way you look at it, mobile devices are personal computers too.Nabeel_co (talk) 21:38, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Inclusion of VIC-64 as a variant name of computer

I had included a reference that the C-64 was sometimes unofficially referred to as the VIC-64 during its pre-release and immediately after its release, however this information was removed from the article. This name variant can be confirmed in magazine reviews, rumours, and advertisements ca. 1982/83 (i.e. COMPUTE! magazine). It was also a name that occurred in popular speech around that time, as people anticipated and talked about the new computer - and it stuck for a while afterwards. Anyone who was a Commodore user during the early 1980s could easily have heard someone refer to the new, mysterious "VIC-64". Seeing as this is a factual, verifiable and once popular variant of the name (although no longer in use), I think it should be included in the article. I am curious as to why this was removed, seeing as "C=64", which appears in the article, is not an "official" designation either. I can provide period magazine scans of this name in actual use if needed for the article.

VIC-64 also seems to be an official variant of the name in Sweden (Google search will provide examples) or this link: [2]

Perhaps since this name variant has fallen from popular use, it can be included in the Trivia section.

--205.193.82.252 17:03, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

That's a lot of links!

Unless i get negative feedback here, I'll try to clean up the link section a bit, and remove at least the most obvious plugs and unnecessary webpages. ("After a 64 game? Then find it here!"). All I did now was remove the "great commodore 64 link page" which was butt ugly and kept telling me my computer was full of errors.

--Virtualsky 16:12, 1 August 2006 (UTC) says:

Maybe some of the links could be moved to a section of the See Also portion of the page... like C64 Music Bands, or something like that. They could be given their own Wiki page, giving the phenomenon more exposure, while tidying up the C64 page at the same time.

I've gone and eradicated the extlinks section. Good riddance. How that got through FA review is beyond me. Chris Cunningham 10:51, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

'Quirks' of the VIC-II?

I have a bit of a problem with the description of more than 8 sprites visible and moving being due to 'quirks' in the VIC-II design. From my knowledge (taken from the Commodore 64 Reference Guide), this capability is not a quirk, but a feature. Multiple sprites were done using the vertical blank interrupt, by setting it higher than the bottom of the screen and using the IRQ routine to alter sprite pointers and/or other VIC-II settings mid-refresh.

The vertical blank register, which sets the scanline at which the vertical blank interrupt occurs is a documented feature of the chip. Although what it was supposed to be used for was not documented, but demo programmers soon found out that it could be used to do all sorts of graphical tricks, like switching modes partway down the screen and playing with sprite pointers and position registers to display more than 8 sprites.

I have edited the sentence in question accordingly.

Mvdwege 21:22, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

The VIC-II doesn't have a "vertical blank" register, per se. It does, however, have a pair of registers that report the current raster line being drawn (among other things) at $D011/$D012, and which are frequently used to create the various video tricks seen in C64 demos. Splitting a sprite is a small matter of either manually waiting for the proper raster line to arrive, or setting a raster interrupt to occur at the proper line, and updating the sprites' pointers to point to move them, point them to new images, change colors, etc. when the line arrives or the IRQ occurs. Fiddling with registers during vertical blank is generally used to turn off vertical borders, induce FLD and similar tricks, interlacing, etc.

Vanessaezekowitz 05:27, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm. I haven't got my copy of the Reference Guide here, but wasn't it the case that the scanline registers reported the current scanline when read, and when written to set the scanline when an IRQ was supposed to occur? Your clarification is spot on nonetheless, but I have always referred to this IRQ as the vertical blank IRQ, as it usually was triggered when the scanline hit the borders, but later some folks got the brilliant idea that you could effectively split the screen, doing multiple display modes and multiple octets of sprites by fiddling with the appropriate registers in the IRQ handler. Mvdwege 21:15, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

There are hacks with VIC that can "improve" picture resolution and color depth. Should it be mentioned? (http://www.studiostyle.sk/dmagic/gallery/gfxmodes.htm) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.246.34.60 (talk) 09:49, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Commodore 64 in the news

Not sure if this is worty of inclution here, reports about Wolfgang Priklopil (Natascha Kampusch kidnapper) using a Commodore 64 as his main computer, and that it's giving the police some trouble retrieving copies of his records have been cropping up all over the news lately [3] [4] [5]. --Sherool (talk) 09:23, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I would guess the main reason why the police are having difficulties are because they're looking in vain for the C64's hard drive. Priklopil surely has several hundreds of 5.25" floppy disks containing files that might incriminate him, but the police are oblivious of the concept of floppy drives. JIP | Talk 08:34, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

"There are emulators available which can make a modern PC capable of running Commodore 64 programmes but Maj Gen Lang said it would be difficult to transmit the data from Priklopil's machine to a modern computer "without loss". ---- Here's a crazy thought: Don't transfer it. Just read the data directly from the Commodore 64. (Duh) - Theaveng 18:42, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Thinking the same

I added this as a line in the trivia section. What do you think? --Ceaser 12:26, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

History reorg

The different models should be incorporated into the History section. The article doesn't read chronologically just now.

The images should also be spaced around the article and appropriately captioned. Tying them to sections makes the article's image coverage spotty and disrupts page layout. Chris Cunningham 13:13, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Total number of games produced for the Commodore 64?

Can anyone estimate the total number, and size, of commercial games produced and published for the Commodore 64? I was wondering if they would all fit on a single 1 GiB USB memory stick. JIP | Talk 08:37, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

The best place to find this out would be on Gamebase64. This is the most accurate and full database of C64 games (both published and unpublished) on the Internet. Perhaps this site should be included in the External Links section? Jimbo 17:56, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

The site says they have recorded 18800 games. Assuming each of them takes up one Commodore 64 single-side floppy disk (664 blocks = 166 kiB) then the total size would be 3,120,800 kiB = (roughly) 3047.7 MiB = (roughly) 2.9762 GiB. So no, they won't all fit on one 1 GiB USB memory stick. But I came pretty close - they will fit on a 4 GiB USB memory stick, which are already commercially available. JIP | Talk 17:29, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Compress them somehow and they will easily fix on a 1 GB memory stick, most game's data isn't compressed on the disks so even ZIP will do the trick. —Feuermurmel 21:38, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Does anyone have a like-for-like comparison with the ZX Spectrum? I know that had at least 6500 individually-released (ie not only in compilations) games in the UK alone.--MartinUK 19:53, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Okay, but there were games wich needed more than one floppy disks. For example F-14 Tomcat (4) or Gunship (2). Of course most games are much smaller than a floppy. 84.0.117.134 (talk) 01:16, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Rationalizing the Trivia

Basically, I took the Trivia and divived it into two major groups. The software related issues were left in the same section but which was given a more accurate name. The two other points related to the high prevelance of defective C64s at product launch and to the homage paid to the C64 in GTA Vice City were simply moved to appropriate sections and contextualized.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Carambola (talk • contribs) 21:27, November 22, 2006 (UTC).

Excellent organizing, nice work! ▪◦▪≡Ѕirex98≡ 10:11, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Edit war / binary prefix

It seems we have an edit war here. I'm not going to take part except by changing the units once after this edit (and for my first time in this article, unless I'm mistaken), but since I believe the kibibytes instead of kilobytes to be clearly the correct term here as per WP:MOSNUM, and since it's rather obvious the issue is not going to be resolved otherwise, on the next revert I'm making a Request for Comment on this issue. I ask that before reverting back to SI prefixes you state the specific reasons for going against WP:MOSNUM here, preferably tersely, for the people handling the RfC. You might want to note that the discussion is also going on in Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers). However it seems the support for changing the style which was overwhelmingly elected in 2005 is quite weak, and the current MoS obviously should apply until the decision to change it.

My sole reason for why KiB should be used for the unit is that that's what was overwhelmingly agreed upon in WP:MOSNUM, in Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/archive22#Unit Disagreement, MiB vs. MB, and discussed over and over in e.g. archives 39, 65 and 66 of the same page, and is simply not going to change because a few new people (note that I wasn't there making the decision myself) have hard feelings on the issue.

From WP:MOSNUM: "If a contributor changes an article's usage from kilo- etc. to kibi- etc. where the units are in fact binary, that change should be accepted." It's dead simple. --SLi 23:22, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

You cite a guideline but you don't cite the guidelines that I have already cited in the history that are from the parent article of the MoS and that means you are looking at one guideline in isolation without considering the wider issues discussed in the MoS. Nowhere in the article sources are IEC prefixes used. Therefore to impose IEC prefixes goes against Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Disputes over style issues "it has been stable in a given style, do not change it without some style-independent reason" (for you to cite the MoS makes it a style reason of course) and because the article and the sources are not consistent. As always if you can show a majority of sources relevant to this article that use IEC prefixes then please link them and talk about making the binary prefix changes. I would suggest waiting for the results of the vote on the MoS talk page related to this issue instead of trying to force the issue on a single article. Lastly if you wish to continue to talk about this issue then do so on the correct MoS talk page since that is much better than trying to start debates on lots of talk pages about the same subject. Fnagaton 23:59, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I have mixed feeling about the new prefixes for the IEC units. (My main gripe with them is that they are awkward to speak.) I consider old prefixes (with a note to that effect) nominally acceptable when there are no SI units in an article. If an article includes SI units, then the specific prefixes must be adhered to for clarity—even if "kibibytes" makes your lips fall off.
—überRegenbogen (talk) 01:10, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Request for Comment on binary prefix issues

This is a request for comment.

What is happening here is that a few people are changing the units in the article to kilobytes from kibibytes, even if they mean 2^10 bytes, because this is used by all the sources for this information. This article is about a computer that was introduced way before these so-called IEC binary prefixes like kibi.

Conversely, a few people are changing kilobytes to kibibytes, as suggested by Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)#Binary_prefixes. Specifically, "If a contributor changes an article's usage from kilo- etc. to kibi- etc. where the units are in fact binary, that change should be accepted."

This conflicts with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:MOSNUM:

"Non-base-10 notations

For numbers expressed in bases other than base ten:

In computer-related articles, use the C programming language prefixes 0x (zero-ex) for ::hexadecimal and 0 (zero) for octal. For binary, use 0b. Consider including a note at the top of ::the page about these prefixes.

In all other articles, use subscript notation. For example: 1379, 2416, 2A912, A87D16 (use _and ).

For base eleven and higher, use whatever symbols are conventional for that base. One quite common convention, especially for base 16, is to use upper-case A–F for digits from 10 through 15 (0x5AB3)."

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

In other words, binary should be configured in BYTES, not DECIMAL.

Here endeth the lesson. 123.3.22.185 (talk) 10:23, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

I believe nobody contests that here kilobyte or kB means 1024 bytes, not 1000 bytes.

It must be noted that on the talk page of WP:MOSNUM, there is ongoing debate over the issue. It has been pointed out above that this is a repeating discussion about WP:MOSNUM, which can be evidenced from careful reading of WP:MOSNUM archives 22, where the current wording won a vote by 20:1:6:0:2, and by reading achives 39, 65 and 66 of WP:MOSNUM (the issue pops up every now and then). It has been claimed that the wording is unlikely to be changed, judging from the past of the issue.

The issue is whether the article should use kibibytes as suggested by WP:MOSNUM (if it suggests that), or kilobytes, as most of the source material uses. From how the issue has been discussed in WP:MOSNUM talk, please also suggest a way of dealing with contributors who persistenty go contrary to eventual consensus.

Also, before this RfC was made, a suggestion was made that both sides introduce their respective views in a terse format on this page before reverting.--00:08, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

You cite a guideline but you don't cite the guidelines that I have already cited in the history that are from the parent article of the MoS and that means you are looking at one guideline in isolation without considering the wider issues listed in the MoS. Nowhere in the article sources are IEC prefixes used so there are no style-independant reasons to use those prefixes. Therefore to impose IEC prefixes goes against Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Disputes over style issues "it has been stable in a given style, do not change it without some style-independent reason" (for you to cite the MoS makes it a style reason of course) and because the article and the sources are not consistent. As always if you can show a majority of sources relevant to this article that use IEC prefixes then please link them and talk about making the binary prefix changes. I would have suggested waiting for the results of the vote on the MoS talk page related to this issue instead of trying to force the issue on a single article by using an RFC. Lastly if you wish to continue to talk about this issue then do so on the correct MoS talk page since that is much better than trying to start debates on lots of talk pages about the same subject. Fnagaton 00:17, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

To keep things simple enough for the RfC, I'll only say one thing: I do not believe there is going to be a vote on the MOSNUM issue. --SLi 00:21, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

"Kilobyte" is the common standard terminology throughout the computing industry and the terminology that was used when the Commodore 64 was made. That is the clearly the appropriate terminology to use here; the Manual of Style in this matter is wrong on several counts. —Centrx→talk • 00:46, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

The "kilobyte was used when it was made" argument is a bit weak IHO. We don't use chains or furlongs as measurements (outside of quotes) just because those where the units used when scertain things where defined back in the day after all. Though yes, unlike those archaic units of measurements kilobyte is clearly still the most used, in fact I have scarsely heard of kibibytes before stumbeling across this. However I believe a ensyclopedia should strive to be as unambigous as possible so personaly I would prefeer to go with the kibibytes as recommended by the MOS and various standardisation organisations. Accuracy over "common use" as it where. -Sherool (talk) 12:50, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

The wikipedia article on horse racing still uses furlongs. The article on American football still uses yards. The article on Snooker uses feet. It is more accurate to use the terms used in the sources than trying to use different terms not widely used in the sources. Fnagaton 15:45, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to point out that the recent change Commodore_64&diff=121689990&oldid=121685631 does not support the use of KiB or kibibyte because neither of those terms are used. Also it is 64 kilobytes not "60 kibibytes" as the diff comment shows. The source cited clearly uses the terminology "K" (for example "K RAM") which is short for kilokyte. Lastly according to the previous comment the editor is accusing me of ignoring the guidelines when in actual fact the editor is ignoring the guidelines I have cited that say to defer to the original style of the first major contributor when there is a conflict of style, this would mean the editor should use kilobyte and KB. Fnagaton 15:45, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

It's 110 % irrelevant what units the source uses. We are entirely entitled to make conversions. And yeah, the 60 was a typo. And you misread the policy quite badly. The entire paragraph that talks about the original contributor is:

Sources are relevant and you are wrong to claim otherwise. Fnagaton 16:22, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

In June 2005, the Arbitration Committee ruled that, when either of two styles is acceptable, it is inappropriate for a Wikipedia editor to change from one style to another unless there is some substantial reason for the change. For example, with respect to British spelling as opposed to American spelling, it would only be acceptable to change from American spelling to British spelling if the article concerned a British topic. Revert warring over optional styles is unacceptable; if the article uses colour rather than color, it would be wrong to switch simply to change styles, although editors should ensure that articles are internally consistent. If it has been stable in a given style, do not change it without some style-independent reason. If in doubt, defer to the style used by the first major contributor. See Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Jguk.

I know what the guideline says because I've cited it enough to show that binary prefixe changes do have doubt and therefore the style should actually be kilobyte etc. Fnagaton 16:22, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Don't you agree that it says first you use the Wikipedia style, if that leaves doubt, THEN (and only then) refer to the style used by the first major contributor. --SLi 15:55, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

There is doubt because the sources do not use those terms. Fnagaton 16:22, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

The issue is that IEC prefixes are not actually the style used on Wikipedia or elsewhere. The formulation in WP:MOSNUM is entirely prescriptive and is not followed. —Centrx→talk • 15:58, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, they are used on pretty much every computer-related article here with more than a few contributors, as you can easily verify yourself. --SLi 16:13, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

You have just used a petitio principii logical fallacy (Circular argument). Just because you can show a that a small few editors have gone around changing lots of articles to binary prefixes does not support your case about binary prefixes. Fnagaton 16:22, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Why don't you go and inspect the histories of those arguments to justify your claims? I have only had to do that for relatively obscure articles (of which Commodore 64 is probably the least obscure), I suppose the same holds for Sarenne. --SLi 17:05, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I have to say I have checked the history and found pretty much the same as the comment from Centrix below confirms. Fnagaton 17:34, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I just went through a half-dozen articles and none of them even used the IEC prefixes (though Hard disk discusses the issue itself), let alone had them as the result of normal writing. —Centrx→talk • 17:10, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, that's interesting. Might be that I was wrong on that point then (the world often, counterintuitively, looks more perfect than it is from the eyes of someone who usually tries to fix encountered problems :). Right now I have no time to go through articles to verify this myself, but I guess I'll believe you if you say so and concede the IEC prefixes are less used in Wikipedia than I thought. --SLi 17:23, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I never once saw the term "kibibytes" used in any Commodore-related literature. Everything - books, magazines, the official instruction manual - used "kilobytes." To introduce a neologism into the article is unnecessary and confusing. If the Manual of Style says that, then the MOS is wrong and needs to be revised. Crotalus horridus (TALK • CONTRIBS) 00:14, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

How is that different from saying we should use, say, 2000 year old measurements when writing about that era documents? Language and units evolve. --SLi 00:23, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

It is not the same as this argument since those 2000 year old terms are seldom used in modern language. However kilobyte and megabyte are still commonly used in modern language. Fnagaton 19:35, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

We should use whatever terms are appropriate for the context. As someone pointed out above, it would be ridiculous to change yards to meters in the American football article. Furthermore, these terms are hardly in widespread use even today. They are neologisms that the majority of readers will not be familiar with. Crotalus horridus (TALK • CONTRIBS) 00:40, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Why ? Bytes are base 8. Metric is base 10. You simply can't reconcile the two. Metric is base 10 because of the Hindu number system, forcing it onto binary is just stupid.123.3.22.106 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 15:22, 10 September 2011 (UTC).

Ya know a lot of this fighting could be eliminated just by being unambiguous. For example: "The commodore 64 came with 64 kilobytes of RAM (65525 bytes), and an optional external floppy with approximately 170 kilobytes (174,848 bytes) of storage," thus defining to the reader exactly what you mean. - Theaveng 19:21, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

You mean the 64 has 65,536 bytes of RAM. 70.228.163.253 (talk) 06:06, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Proxies

Not accusing any editors from this debate (it could have been anyone, including me, or just a passer-by). But now this is getting ugly. [6] Using an anonymous open proxy is not a way to win this 'battle'. Femto 11:25, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Another one. [7] I've semi-protected the article for 3 days. Femto 12:26, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for helping to spot the open proxy editor. Is it possible to check the logs to see if someone has used a rare version of a browser or forgot to clean their cookies before making those edits? I'd like to see the culprit found. Fnagaton 17:45, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Far as I know Wikipedia does not keep such logs (though there may be manual checks in cases of libel, criminal offenses, etc.) Let's keep things in perspective. In cases of continued policy violations by a particular suspect one might try a checkuser to see if anyone logged in from the IP. However since these were IP edits it means the person cleared their login cookies. Knowing who is the coward that edited from varying IPs wouldn't stop reverts from new proxies in any case. (And, personally, I do prefer the IEC version—but not without clear consensus.) Femto 19:29, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Ugh, that's really lame. Why does Wikipedia allow such anonymous open proxies? Wasn't the anonymizing Tor network at least entirely blocked? --SLi 18:37, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

No, editing from open proxies is not allowed, and Wikipedia:WikiProject on open proxies does its best to keep up with them. Femto 19:29, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Anyway, I think the semiprotection was definitely here a good idea. Perhaps it should stay at least until there is some consensus. --SLi 22:26, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Even if semi-protection is probably a good idea, I don't see any reason why you reverted the changes. The current article is internally inconsistent. There are both SI and IEC symbols to designate binary capacities. Sarenne 18:57, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

The article is not inconsistent. The actual binary prefix issue is being discussed on the relevant MoS talk page Manual of Style (dates and numbers). Fnagaton 19:05, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry but using "kilobyte" or "KB" to designate 1024 B and using "MiB" to designate 1024*1024 B is not really consistent. Sarenne 19:09, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Then change it to be MB instead to make it consistent with the article and the reliable sources. Fnagaton 19:17, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Inaccurate info about competitors

I have changed very inaccurate competitor info that was in this article. For example, it claimed that all of the C64's competitors came with 16K versus Commodore's 64K. This is patently false: the Atari, Apple II, and IBM came with very similar amounts of RAM at the time of the C64's release. Furthermore, the C64 used up a lot of its RAM on system software, leaving about as much for actual programs as a 48K Apple II (I have left this out however as a possibly partisan thing to be pointing out). Also the statement that C64 had superior graphics cannot be made in a blanket fashion; it must be qualified, since the competitors actually had much higher resolution graphics modes than the C64 -- but these graphics modes were rarely used due to their more limited colour options. And the price of $1500 quoted for the Apple II available at the time of the C64's release is $300 too high.

I don't see the need to go on so much about competitors in this article -- it sounds combative, and you'll notice that the Apple II and IBM PC wiki articles don't get into this kind of talk. But if this information is going to be mentioned, it should at least be accurate, so I have fixed it. I would not object to these sections being lifted out altogether, however, since this article is really not about platform comparisons. If you are going to do these comparisons, though, please at least take the time to carefully research more than just your own platform and get it right. If you don't want to take that time, then leaving it out would be preferable.--64.229.24.22 06:54, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

• We really should avoid original research, which much of this section consists of. Any comparisons used should be taken from literature published at the time, not made up on the spot. I'll look through my old copies of COMPUTE!, COMPUTE!'s Gazette, and RUN to see if I can find contemporary comparisons. For what it's worth, the Atari did not have any mode that provided a higher resolution than the C64 (it topped out at 320×192, compared to the C64's 320×200). Among the Apple II family, as of 1983 only the Apple IIe (not the old Apple II or Apple II+) provided higher resolution. From my own readings, it seems that the VIC-II's sprite capability (and the SID chip's high-quality sound) was a major selling point at the time. That was especially useful in competition with game consoles; the PC was probably a better business computer, but the C64's ability to play high-quality games made it better suited for many home users. Neither the original IBM PC nor the Apple II family had hardware sprite capabilities. Crotalus horridus (TALK • CONTRIBS) 16:14, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

You might be mistaking the nature of the Apple II lineup. Each iteration replaced the previous. The IIe was the standard Apple II from the moment it was released. I am sure there was some stock remaindered, but as of January '83, the Apple IIe was it. So I think you might be confusing historical progression with low end/high end models? You can confirm the end-of-production date for the Apple II+ on the same website I referenced. Otherwise, I think the things you've said are basically right. I could easily dredge up a whole lot more web sources than the site I used for the stuff I added, but it sounds like you are looking for contemporary accounts. But for some of this info, you sort of had to be there. For example, the Apple IIe's higher graphics modes did not see a lot of use, but the IBM PC's high graphics saw a bit more. And there are a lot of pluses and minuses that go into particularly the graphics performance on these systems. It really depends on what you're doing with it. If you're playing old-style RPGs or adventure games, for example, which were mostly turn-based, superior animation is no advantage. All in all, while I would agree that the C64 was very competitive graphically and had the edge in a couple of very important ways, summing it all up accurately can get pretty verbose. These systems are close enough to each other in capability that the answer to which is better could be a matter of your taste in games. Anyway, I can definitely agree that comparisons should not be thought up by us -- but they also should not flatly contradict the technical specs, whatever their origin. There was plenty of bias back then, too.--65.95.94.94 22:29, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Regarding this statement "Furthermore, the C64 used up a lot of its RAM on system software, leaving about as much for actual programs as a 48K Apple II" it's not accurate since using memory location $1 it is possible to swap out the ROMs and allow the RAM to be used for data and programs. Most games, especially the ones produced later, did this. Fnagaton 09:13, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Interesting. See, I wrote that statement but I am not an expert on the C64. This is just something I heard and got passed around. Which is why I didn't actually put the statement in the article itself. Few people are experts on more than one platform of an era so comparisons I have seen over the years are *very* rarely accurate. I am no exception and I am guilty as charged -- but I didn't put my assumptions into the article.--65.95.121.152 06:11, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I think Commodore 64 vs. Apple, Atari 800, or IBM PC (I've used all three) can be summed-up like this: They were near-identical in terms of speed and memory, but the Commodore/Atari had been designed as game consoles (originally), thus giving them a significant edge in the graphics & audio sub-sections of each machine. ----- The Atari was advanced for its time (1978), but the Commodore was developed four years later (1982) thus making it more advanced technologically with better video output, more hardware sprites, and realistic-sounding audio (Ataris resembled touchtone phones). These more-advanced multimedia features made both Atari and Commodore attractive to home users for gaming, music listening, and creating art. - Theaveng 19:32, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

No way. A) IBM PC was a different architecture, like comparing apples and oranges. b) The Atari's were not designed as "game consoles" originally. Only the 400 model was, the 800 was designed for business and serious use. c) Most of your observations are just that, observations, i.e. WP:OR. You can't make sweeping edits based on that. --Marty Goldberg 21:08, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Apple IIe, Amstrad, Spectrum and C64 were all single board microcomputers that used the BASIC interpreter to access the kernal.

The IBM PC (except the PC jr) and the earlier CPM / S-100 computers were backplane and semi-backplane machines having the video and sound processors on buses as well as peripheral access cards with an operating system above the motherboard to access the kernal.

Neither the Apple II or Atari 800 were serious competitors to the Vic 20 and C64 ; they were considerably more expensive.123.3.16.124 (talk) 12:54, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Recent Matt Britt change to remove http://www.the-commodore-zone.com/

I didn't see any popups (or attempted popups) when visiting this site so I don't see why this change [8] said it was using popups? Fnagaton 09:39, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

See WP:POP. Sarenne 09:53, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I did see WP:POP before I wrote the above and thus I still do not see the validity of the revert comment. Fnagaton 10:11, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

? The revert comment only indicates that the revert was done using WP:POP... Sarenne 10:16, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

The change to add the link looks fine and follows the example of the other links in the section. The actual site does not appear to display popups. Therefore, as my first comment says, I do not see why the change was made. Fnagaton 10:21, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

See WP:External_links and WP:NOT#LINK. Again, it has nothing to do with popups. Sarenne 10:31, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Are you speaking for Matt Britt now? I took the change comment to mean the site was using popups since there is no further explanation in the change comment. Again, as my above comments say, I see no reason for the change. Fnagaton 10:35, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

You misunderstood what the comment means. Wikipedia is not a repository of links and the site is just a personal web page. Sarenne 10:53, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

No you are wrong, the comment doesn't contain a good explanation of why the change was made. I looked at the site, it contains good information and is as valid as some of the other sites listed in the article. Anyway, I'm not asking you, I'm asking the author of the change. Fnagaton 11:15, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

No, I'm not wrong, I said that the comment only indicates that the revert was made using WP:POP, nothing more. I only added reasons why, IMO, this link should be removed. Sarenne 11:28, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

You are wrong because your claim at 10:53 is incorrect. I again remind you that I'm not asking you, I'm asking the editor who made the change. Fnagaton 11:32, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Then ask him on his talk page. It's perfectly reasonable that another editor is going to give you a valid answer (to both your original question and to your misunderstanding regarding the summary) if you ask on the article's talk. Chris Cunningham 11:35, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

At last a sensible suggestion. However I have noticed that a number of links in the list are either dead, point towards a warez FTP site or advertise PCs with little relevance to the C64. So I'm going to edit the list. Fnagaton 11:43, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

When someone adds a link, and another one reverts, you should ask for the reason why it was added, not for the reason why it was removed again. Just take a look at the edit history, which reveals that the link was reverted because it has been added by an account that contributed nothing but multiple links to the site, and even seems to be named after it. Linkspam by its very definition.

Re "Added previous link since it contains info which is as valid as the rest of these in the list." [9]: The existence of other links is not a valid reason for adding another. It looks like just another random C64 site. What would it add to an encyclopedic article? Femto 15:30, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Re: "What would it add to an encyclopedic article?" I think it adds another reference to a site that contains good information. For example, the game database is large, even though it doesn't contain the one I wrote (hmph!), the articles are well written and it also contains older items from some of the C64 magazines of the time. Fnagaton 15:53, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

This justifies its inclusion in a link directory - which Wikipedia is not. (Incidentally, DMOZ is, and through its link here the site is already available.) Sure, the Internet is full of good information. Same question remains (and which should be asked about all links): What would be this site's relevance to the content of this article? Femto 16:16, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Rhyme

Is it just me or does "Commodore 64" kind of rhyme? 71.0.240.56 01:28, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Weird Al agrees (~1:11). -- mattb 00:44, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Write an in-depth article about it :-)

Keys flying off

The function keys on my C64c used to occasionally bounce off after hitting them too hard, and I spent many hours searching under my bed for the lost spring. It is evident that commodore didn't spend very much on their keyboards.

commodore keyboards were considered very good for low-end computers in the early days. most of the competition had membrane or chicklet keys. also, i've heard later models like the 64c were built more cheaply to satisfy demand and maximize profits

Technical question

I was wondering if someone might help me understand the C64's graphics modes a little better...

1. Text mode: 40×25 characters; 256 user-defined chars (8×8 pixels, or 4×8 in multicolor mode); 4-bit color RAM defines foreground color
2. Bitmap modes: 320×200 (1 unique color + background in each 8×8 block), 160×200 (1 unique color + 3 common colors in each 4×8 block)

For one, am I correct in assuming the multi-color text had the same limitations in colors-per-area as the bitmap mode?

And in that case, how did the colors change across the line? If I understand the description correctly, there were four color registers (right?), one that was used by the entire screen ("background" I assume) and then three that could be changed in the 4×8 block. But how did one actually change the colors?

I'm trying to get some sort of common understanding with the Atari machines. On those the 160x192 mode had four colors (period), and with some trickery one could arrange to modify them on-the-fly. Line-by-line was easy (which is why you saw so many "rainbow" effects on that machine), but it was even possible to do it in the midst of a line, with some problems.

But the description above of the C64 suggests that there was no such trickery involved, and I recall many C64 games that seemed to use lots of different colors, so I'm assuming this was easier on that platform. Can someone describe this for me?

Maury 00:32, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

The multicolour text mode used one unique colour, and three common colours (background + two extra colours) for each character. I don't believe it is possible to change a block's colours in the middle of a horizontal line. I've heard it is possible to change them between horizontal lines, though. As I understand it, this is done by forcing a bad scan line interrupt on each scan line, rather than every 8th, as the Commodore 64 normally does. Don't ask me how to implement it, though.

What I don't understand is the change in the specs of the multicolour bitmap mode from "1 unique colour + 3 common colours" to "3 unique colour + 1 common colour". Where are the extra 2 unique colours stored? There are one thousand 4*8 pixels blocks. Storing one unique colour for each is going to take half a byte per block, this means five hundred bytes. For hires bitmap mode, the unique colours are stored as half of each byte in a thousand-byte area, with the other half of the bytes going to waste. But storing three unique colours is going to take one-and-a-half thousand bytes, which do not fit in to the screen colour map area $D800-$DBE7 even if you use every bit. Where are you going to store the extra five hundred bytes? I no longer have a Commodore 64 but I do have the VICE emulator, so I could try it out for myself, but unfortunately I no longer remember how to use the bitmap modes. JIP | Talk 06:50, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Two of the colors come from what the PRG calls Screen Memory, which normally stores the characters on the screen. The third comes from Color Memory, which normally stores the colors of the characters on the screen. Color Memory is the $D800-$DBE7 area you're talking about; Screen Memory can be set to be in various locations but defaults to $0400-$07E7. (You could change two of the colors in every cell by setting up multiple color maps and switching between them; the setup would take ~1K of RAM per color set but you only need to set one byte to switch everything.) -- Parody 05:14, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation. This matches what I've read from the on-line version of the C64 Programmer's Reference Manual. It also says that the screen memory holds the colours for the hires mode as well, does this mean that in hires mode, each 8×8 pixel block has two unique colours? JIP | Talk 16:47, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

For hi-res mono, yeah, each 8x8 block had its own foreground and background color. For hi-res multicolor, the pixels got "fat" and each two bits selects from 3 unique colors (two in the screen memory and one in the color memory) per 4x8 block along with a global background color. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.251.236.178 (talk) 23:47, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Clock speed

As I understand it, one of the reasons for Commodore's success in the 1980s was its aquisition of MOS technology, which gave them easy access to the 6502 and other chips. How come the C64 ran its cpu at 1.02Mhz when e.g. the Ataris ran theirs at 1.79MHz? Why let the competition be that much faster when you have the cpu factory? Drhex 13:49, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

(1) Commodore MOS Technology only made the chip; they did not control how fast they were clocked by other people like Atari or Apple. (2) From what I've been told, the C=64's CPU speed is limited by its interface with the VIC video chip. If it tries to run faster, the CPU and VIC can no longer talk to one another (which is why the screen goes blank when you switch to 2 megahertz mode on a C128). ----- As for why the VIC does not run faster, I don't know. Probably because the VIC is synchronized to the NTSC standard. In Europe with the PAL standard, the VIC runs even slower (~0.97 megahertz) in order to maintain sync with the PAL televisions. (3) A side-effect of that is PAL music plays too fast when used on an NTSC machine. - Theaveng 22:22, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually PAL systems have 312 raster lines and 63 processor cycles on each raster line, NTSC systems have 263 raster lines and 65 cycles on each line, thus PAL VIC ran on 17.73447 MHz and NTSC VIC ran on 14.31818 MHz. I think therefore that you may have switched the MHz of NTSC and PAL processor, but haven't found anywhere to confirm this. - Sandy (non user, casual updater) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.246.34.60 (talk) 09:18, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Just calculated: NTSC 263x65x60 = 1,0257 MHz, PAL 312*63*50 = 0,9828 MHz - Sandy — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.246.34.60 (talk) 10:15, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

C64 Palette

I'm writing a post-processing fragment shader to display graphics in the format of old 8-bit systems (useless, but fun), I found the ZX Spectrum graphic modes article very useful. Not too sure where to put it, but if anyone needs the C64 palette, I found it here: http://alex.kazik.de/en/convert.html Bitplane 15:16, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

That's a neat little tool. I tried it using an actual C64 image - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:C64_Armalyte.png - and the results were fairly good. ----- I then tried a JPEG image of a JVC camera. The only problem is that, while it reduces the color palette, it doesn't take into account C64 limitations such as "only 4 colors per 8x8 block". It's doubtful that a real C64 could create pictures that look that good. - Theaveng 22:34, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

On the C64 using FLI and other extended graphics mode techniques it is possible to use the full palette in every 4x8 block. Fnagaton 15:39, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Doesn't that cause an unpleasant flicker effect (like interlace on an Amiga)? - Theaveng 16:21, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

It depends on the exact technique used as each technique has technical pros and cons. For example one technique may use a lot of CPU and IRQ time, another might not allow all sprites to be used on the same scan line etc. Fnagaton 17:19, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Collapse of Commodore

I think there should be a section about the collapse of Commodore. They had 40% market share at one point, and had their moment in the sun. But why did it end? Was it horrible business decisions, a lack of innovation, what did it? I think this would be a great project for someone with more time than I. :) 24.13.141.176 18:40, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

You might find the Commodore International article's History section enlightening. -- Parody 12:49, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, it's worth considering a short blurb on it's collapse. Anatocis (talk) 13:52, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Commodore 64 Technical information

The technical tweaks one could accomplish in software is one of the important aspects of this machine and what made it so popular. So looking at the article and talk page I was thinking how it may be useful to include some more detailed technical analysis of some of the more well known features of the custom chips, for example being able to draw in the border areas or displaying more than eight hardware sprites. But then I was struck with how this would make the article much larger so instead how about starting a new topic to cover this detailed information? Fnagaton 15:34, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Picture

Can we swap the picture of the keyboard at the top for one of the whole computer?—ScouterSig 20:59, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

You mean the one at the top of the article? That is the whole computer. (1541 floppy drive and color TV set not included.) -- Parody 04:45, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Say what!? Pardon my ignorance of all things older than me, but if that's the case, why does the article not mention that at all? I would think it's kind of important. —ScouterSig 13:38, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

It's perfectly normal for 80s era computers see eg ZX Spectrum, Amstrad CPC, Vic 20 and even later machines like the Atari ST and/or Amiga (500). Not worth noting here. --Pak21 13:52, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I wonder what exactly Scoutersig thinks is missing? Is he expecting a "tower box" to sit on the floor? That stuff is already inside the keyboard. A floppy disk drive? Not necessary if you're just playing games off cartridges. A CRT or LCD? Just use your TV! ----- The keyboard is truly the whole computer; all the other stuff is optional, and nice to have, but not necessary. Perhaps that should be stated in the article, but I think it's rather self-evident that the computer is inside the keyboard. (Same as a laptop; computer is inside the keyboard.) - Theaveng (talk) 16:11, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Hmm...I can understand that someone who has only seen modern machines (where typically the motherboard is in its own box or is permanently attached to its monitor in some way) could be confused. Even though I think it's pretty self-evident based on the description and the other pictures in the article, a change like "The Commodore 64 is an 8-bit all-in-one home computer..." might be a good idea.

As far as the picture goes, I don't think there's any need to change it. I've looked through a number of articles for a wide variety of electronic products and the majority of them are shown either without peripherals attached or only with things that come with the system (like the Intellivision's controllers) attached. -- Parody (talk) 22:18, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

One more thing that might be helpful is adding a picture to the Hardware section taken from the back or back-right side of a C=64, showing (and labeling?) the various ports. -- Parody (talk) 23:47, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

In their ads, Commodore often showed a C64 attached to the family television (and mom and dad laughing with the kids). Maybe we should do that... demonstrate through the picture how the computer operates (no need for an expensive monitor; just hook it up to your TV!). In fact that's how I have my C64 connected right now, using the S-video connection. Looks and works great, with a nice large 30 inch screen. I suspect most Commodore owners just used a spare television rather than buy a $300 computer monitor. - Theaveng (talk) 11:50, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

---

Successor Commodore 128 ?, no it was the Commodore Plus 4 which failed and then the Commodore 128 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.22.180.83 (talk) 11:03, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Sales figures

This was previously specified as 17 million on the basis of some guy posting a message in a Google Groups forum claiming the Guinness Book of Records' figure of 30 million was wrong - on the basis of his memory![10] Sorry, that's not good enough, 30 million it is until a more authoritative source can be found. Halsteadk (talk) 17:48, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand the source for the 30 million being cited in the article, It clearly states at the bottom -

"1993 Annual Report: 17M total C64, 4.5M C128"

I searched the article for any mention of a 30 million figure and there was none at all, I wonder if the citation was left from a previous figure? also, in regards to the Guiness book of games (which I own), ordinarily I would call this sort of book a reliable source, if it wasn't for the fact that there is actually a very notable amount of incorrect information in it, and, to be quite frank a 30 million total figure sounds completely ridiculous, I mean, even in the article it says at their height they were selling 2 million a year, selling at that figure every year for the entire lifespan wouldn't reach 30 million! 86.163.11.94 (talk) 17:41, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

About the bugs...

From the article:

The Commodore 64's BASIC V2, the programming language which came built-in with the computer, can be crashed by executing PRINT""+-x (where x is any integer), or by attempting to create a BASIC program with an initial line numbers 350720 to 353279.

Without any information on the underlying bugs this is meaningless. Shinobu 06:22, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

makes perfect sense to me —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.125.110.223 (talk) 20:31, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

actually I agree, it makes no sense...doesn't really add anything to the article, and it's also improper grammar (with an initial line numbers?). Clearly someone with too much time on their hands discovered this; it serves no value to anyone else. 162.136.192.1 (talk) 21:03, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Chartshoworiginal.jpg

Image:Chartshoworiginal.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 21:34, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Laptop?

So is this some sort of laptop? No wonder this company went down; they're so stupid, they put the keyboard on the outside and the screen on the inside. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.108.57.33 (talk) 01:18, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

haha. assumed to be funny, so laughing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stentie (talk • contribs) 15:50, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

It was standard for the time. Intel and others made 'luggable' computers using this format. Remember the screen is CRT and so trying to adopt the laptop form factor seen today would mean the lid being about 8 inches deep. The form factor uses the same case dimensions as common engineering and scientific equipment of the time. Terryhfs (talk) 15:47, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

'Point?'

Without objection, I will change the statement "At one point (1983/84/85), the Commodore 64 dominated the market with approximately 40% share" to "for a substantional period (1983/84/85), the Commodore 64 dominated the market with approximately 40% share." Three years is hardly a 'point,' no offense to the author. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Monkthatgotfunk (talk • contribs) 11:31, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

I 've changed it again to "1983-85" 162.136.192.1 (talk) 21:06, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Agreed - in the context of all eternity, 3 years is hard to reconcile with 'a substantial period'. Terryhfs (talk) 15:48, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

"screen saver" easter egg (error handler quirk)

I can accept calling the error handler quirk an easter egg, even though was accidental. But it is totally not a screen saver—at least not without changing the colours first. ("Screen saver" does not mean "video eye candy".)
—überRegenbogen (talk) 04:14, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

I think the reason that it is in quotations is to show that it may be referred to as 'screen saver' but it actually is not a screen saver. XF Law (talk) 07:27, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

External Links

Hi. I did some work on expanding the references. Is anyone interested in filtering some external links? There may be a bit many, but thats just IMHO. XF Law (talk) 12:49, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Non-notable trivia?

I had added a sentence mentioning a web server that is running on a C64, which was removed as "non-notable triva". I disagree with this. Anyone have any opinions? fgroover (talk) 02:02, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

This paragraph terribly contradictory. Best 4 years of sales @ 2 million do not equal 30 million total. Better research needed.

During the Commodore 64's lifetime, sales totaled 30 million units, making it the best-selling single personal computer model of all time.[2] For a substantial period of time (1983-1986), the Commodore 64 dominated the market with between 30% and 40% share and 2 million units sold per year,[3] outselling the IBM PC clones, Apple computers, and Atari computers. Sam Tramiel, a former Atari president said in a 1989 interview "When I was at Commodore we were building 400,000 C64s a month for a couple of years."[4] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.215.187.165 (talk) 05:23, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

I suspect the 2 million figure is for US sales only. But the article referenced isn't very clear... Dendlai (talk) 05:37, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Commodore 64 sales were actually around 12.5 million based off recent research on serial numbers http://www.pagetable.com/?p=547 128.82.32.121 (talk) 13:26, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Coomodore Austral;ia definitely claimed sales of 20 million. The issue is confused as they were made in more than one factory, and also under licence in the eastern bloc.123.3.16.124 (talk) 14:01, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

5-pin video port

According to the article's I/O ports section, "some early C64 units used a 5-pin DIN connector that only contained CVBS output". That sentence has a footnote that refers to the following website, which says

[E]arly versions of the C64 have a 5 pin DIN connector while later versions have an 8 pin. The two are wired exactly the same, except that the 8 pin connector has a separated chroma (color) output. Earlier C64's didn't output separate Y/C video.

However, to clarify, both my Commodore 64 manual and this website shows the same 5-pin port that does have a luminance signal. So it appears the 5-pin port had a luminance signal, but not a dedicated chroma signal. However, I think it's possible the chroma signal can be functionally substituted with the composite video signal, but I'm not certain about my video signal knowledge. --Bavi H (talk) 02:43, 24 September 2009 (UTC) (Updated link in this paragraph. --Bavi H (talk) 02:38, 21 November 2009 (UTC) )

I updated the sentence about the 5-pin AV port in the article. I may investigate later how to add the website with the 5-pin port diagram as a reference, if the website is considered an appropriate reference. If others know how, feel free to help. --Bavi H (talk) 02:59, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

Drean64

There have been a C64 clone in argentina. some info here: [11]--Waskoma (talk) 06:28, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

I suggest you read the article you linked again. The Drean Commodore machines were not clones, Drean did not produce any hardware like chips or motherboards, they only assembled components sourced from Commodore and put their own badges on them.

I'm suprised Drean hasn't been included in the article... -Pixel8 16:41, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Program lines more than 2 lines long

From the article:

* Using short commands (usually the first letter, then shift and the second) it was possible to make BASIC lines more than two display rows long. The C64 could not parse more than two display rows when the subsequent code was LISTed, so lines constructed in this fashion could not be edited - to make changes to them, the user would have to re-type them from scratch.^{Ojala, Pasi. "Opening the Borders". http://www.antimon.org/dl/c64/code/opening.txt. Retrieved 2008-09-13.} 

While it is indeed true that this way of shortening the commands works (verified by personal experience), it has to be noted that the cited reference does not mention this at all. JIP | Talk 18:45, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

6581 has a "crisper" sound?

I think this is a strange way to put it, and in any case it's a completely subjective claim. There are documented differences between the 6581 and the 8580 of course; in particular the 6581 has a much poorer signal to noise ratio, and a less resonant filter. These might be better qualities to cite instead.

Also, many SID crazies do prefer the 6581 (I'm one of them) but many also prefer the 8580. The way the article is written now seems biased in favor of the 6581. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.195.134.250 (talk) 03:45, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

The 8580 didn't play samples the same way as the 6581 ; it garbled the theme tune on "Nemesis The Warlock" by Martech and "Lightforce" by Faster Than Light, for instance. I think it had something to do with the way the registers interfaced with the microprocessor. Samples used a "spare" register that was not used by the wave generators, hence you could get four soundwaves (3 generated + 1 sampled) on the C64.123.3.20.153 (talk) 15:35, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Reverted recent edits

I have reverted the recent edits by an anonymous user. I think he/she does not properly understand the history of home computers, or basic math.

For one thing, both the Amiga and the Atari ST are 32-bit computers. Both are powered my the Motorola 68k family of processors, which can handle numbers in three different lengths: "byte" (8 bits), "word" (16 bits) or "long word" (32 bits). That is all that is needed for a computer to be 32-bit. Modern computers can handle 64-bit numbers, which the Amiga and the Atari ST can't. Supercomputers might even be able to handle bigger numbers.

For another thing, "16-colour (4 bit)" is correct. Even though the Commodore 64 is a 8-bit computer, 16 colours means 4 bits. $2^{4}=16$. The Commodore 64 can only handle 8-bit bytes, but it only needs half of the information in a byte to represent a colour. The Commodore 64 has 16 colours, period. Nothing more than that. The eight basic RGB colours, lighter shades of red, green, and blue, three gray shades, and brown and orange. That's sixteen, exactly. JIP | Talk 20:23, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

To be technical, the C64 uses a "nibble" to select colour. The restriction of colours is because of the restricted addressable RAM by the 8 bit microprocessor - not the limitations of the video chip (yes the video chip is limited - but that's because of the limited colour RAM that could be used). Nibbles are also used to select sprite and scrolling registers. The other half of the register is used for other things, in other words.

Okay, it's technically "4 bit", but a contemporary programmer would not call it that, but "16 colour". 123.3.22.106 (talk) 15:10, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

Hawkins, William J. (October 1985). "Hot new Amiga - move over, Mac?". Popular Science. 227 (4): pp. 89, 128. ISSN 0161-7370. {{cite journal}}: |pages= has extra text (help) "The 256-kilobyte (K) Amiga has many similarities to the Apple Macintosh: mouse control, windows, icons, 3.5-inch disk drive, and a 16/32-bit 68000 microprocessor." -- SWTPC6800 (talk) 04:20, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with File:Club Caribe title screen.gif

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• That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
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This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --23:48, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

No mention of them bringing it back updated?

http://www.commodoreusa.net/CUSA_C64.aspx

Commodor is remaking the Commodore 64 with modern updates. I am surprised this is was not in the article on Wikipedia--71.226.205.8 (talk) 15:23, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Same here. I found a good article providing some additional details. http://finance.yahoo.com/family-home/article/112510/new-commodore-64-nyt 216.69.219.3 (talk) 02:09, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

I think it should not be in this article at all, since it is not a relaunch of the commodore 64 at all. It just looks similar, but it shares none of the functionality of the c64. It is not even compatible. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.95.192.205 (talk) 12:06, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Expandable? Really? How many modems can you plug into it? 216.99.201.8 (talk) 10:13, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Online gaming

The "Online gaming" section contains the following poorly organized sentence: "At the time AOL was a Commodore 64 only online service, known as Quantum Computer Services, with just a few thousand subscribers, and was called Quantum Link." I would suggest changing it to "At the time AOL was known as Quantum Computer Services, and provided a Commodore 64 only online service called Quantum Link to just a few thousand subscribers." This should help to clarify the distinction between the name of the service and the name of company providing that service. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.238.225.208 (talk) 22:00, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Page vandalism/advertising a commercial product

I made a change to the article to remove undue attention from a specific commercial emulator available in the Apple Appstore and replaced it with a more general sentance stating the various systems which can emulate the C64, including iOS. Stop removing this and replacing it with what amounts to as an advertisement for a commercial product. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sunzuki123 (talk • contribs) 21:12, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Sources

• Griggs, Brandon. "The Commodore 64, that '80s computer icon, lives again." CNN. May 9, 2011.

WhisperToMe (talk) 14:57, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

Image deletion mania!!

Seems this guy is on a crusade to delete many screenshots Special:Contributions/RJaguar3 in this article (C64) related to networking. No opposition!? Electron9 (talk) 09:35, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Problems with this article

Firstly, it's too long and quite unprofessional, let's start at the beginning :

>"The Commodore 64 is an 8-bit home computer introduced by Commodore International in January 1982."

Is this really meaningful to anyone under 35 ? The C64 was a single board computer with a MOS 6510 processor with an 8 bit data bus and a 16 bit address bus, video and sound processors and a BASIC interpreter chip licensed from Microsoft, is the accurate description.

It might be more precise to say the BASIC program was purchased from Microsoft, and then burned onto an endless number of chips without ever having to pay anything more for it.

>"Preceded by the Commodore VIC-20 and Commodore MAX Machine"

What is this strange wiki obsession with procession ? The Vic 20 was sold concurrently and the MAX was never really available.

I agree. There were very few Ultimax computers ever manufactured.

>"with sound and graphics performance that were superior to IBM-compatible computers of that time."

The first IBM PCs mostly were sold with a CGA adapter which really had better graphical capabilities.

Wait a second here. Did the CGA adaptor really give the IBM pc (or any other pc) the equivalent of SID audio? After all, you were objecting to the sentence "with sound AND graphics performance that were superior to IBM-compabible computers of that time." I had access to a PC in 1983, and all it ever did, was beep when you pressed CTRL G.

Until about 1990 and the '486, PCs were usually silent and monochrome, and hence weren't anywhere near as popular in the home market as people are now led to believe.123.3.20.19 (talk) 04:45, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

>"Since 28 March 2008, Commodore 64 games have been available to buy through Nintendo's Virtual Console service in Europe; the first games available were Uridium and International Karate.[12][13] Later, on February 23, 2009, the Commodore 64 section was launched in North America with the first three titles, International Karate, The Last Ninja and Pitstop II."

Is this really necessary ?

Beats me.

>"Winning the market war" section

This may be interesting but its misleading as the largest number of sales occured after this period, outside of USA.

>"Like the Apple IIe, the C64 could also output baseband composite video and thus could be plugged into a specialized monitor for a sharper picture. Unlike the IIe, the C64's baseband NTSC output capability included separate luminance/chrominance signal output equivalent to (and electrically compatible with) S-Video, for connection to the popular Commodore 1702 monitor."

The Apple II was very expensive and not a competitor (some Taiwanese Apple II clones were). The monitor output was of little market value as most households used the loungeroom television set. The Apple IIe lacked RF ouput ; that was of more relevance.

>Relaunch

I don't believe this section should be here.

What on earth is a "relaunch" ? That sounds like a reference to how a PC that crashes, and you have to reboot it. I agree, take it out. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.99.219.234 (talk) 06:53, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

>"At the time of its introduction, the C64's graphics and sound capabilities were rivaled only by the Atari 8-bit family."

No. There was also the Tandy Colour Computer, Amstrad CPC, Timex 2068, Sega SC-100, MSX machines, Vtech Creativision, Dragon 32, IBM PC jr, and numerous Taiwanese Apple II clones to mention a few.

>Basic

No mention is made of the fact that the chip was licensed from Microsoft. Why ?

First off, the "chip" itself wasn't licensed, it was the functionality of BASIC, and that was more technically a matter of patent rights than copyrights. (Though sometimes copyright and patent, are blurred a bit.) In any case, this code was then installed on a chip - an endless number of chips, mind you - over and over again.

Look at it this way, also: the issue of licensing (in the nature of a one time lock, stock, and barrel license that had no expiration date) was kept secret from most of the public. Note moreover (and this is important here) that the price of the overall license grew ever more diluted, the more C-64 computers were sold. Microsoft wasn't making any more money off that initial $28,000 in 1981 or 1982, or whatever year it was. So, subsequent to the acquisition of that "license," millions of C-64 computers were sold, but that initial $28,000 represents all the money Microsoft ever made from the "license."

I'm not concerned about the issue of money, it's just that Microsoft basic was a _variety_ of BASIC used on the Commodore, Apple and IBM machines, as opposed to Sinclair BASIC or TI BASIC, for instance. It wasn't kept secret, it was in fact advertised that it was Microsoft BASIC for the PET, so that you could use programs written for any S-100 machine with a Microsoft BASIC card. See some of the old Byte magazine issues. I'm fairly sure it was the program itself (or the right to copy it) that was purchased, as Microsoft were the first to fit a whole BASIC interpreter onto an 8 kb ROM. Of course, BASIC V2 was modified, probably by Jim Butterfield, to work with the C64 and the VIC 1540 disk drive kernals.123.3.20.19 (talk) 04:33, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

I don't want to make revisons that will just be reverted. This section needs a fairly extensive re-write.123.3.16.124 (talk) 13:31, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

I'm planning on working on this soon. An additional note to myself is to mention the oddity of only having down/right cursor keys. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) - talk 13:56, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

BASIC

"As was common for home computers of the time, the C64 incorporated a ROM based version of the BASIC programming language."

Why was the reference to the fact that the interpreter ROM was licensed from Microsoft removed ?

Where do you get the idea that the ROM was subject to licensing? And which ROM are you talking about, anyway? Are you talking about $A000-BFFF or some other ROM?

There is a very important difference between an interpreter (which converts BASIC to op-codes straight away) and a compiler (which compiles into op-codes and runs the machine code programme). If you don't know the difference don't revert !203.39.81.92 (talk) 02:35, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

If you haven't studied $A000-BFFF in depth, stop complaining about how Microsoft was supposed to have owned a piece of it. Be specific, and cite the exact memory range you believe was owned by Microsoft (and purportedly licensed out to Commodore). 216.99.201.192 (talk) 06:39, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

My understanding was that Commodore (like Apple) purchased the program outright ; hence the lack of reference in memory, unlike the MSX machines. Atari and Texas Instruments developed their own versions. I'm looking for a reference.123.3.20.19 (talk) 04:23, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Power supply

>"The proprietary design usually led to "freezing" after a few hours, so many serious users - such as programmers - used their own dual circuit power supplies instead[dubious – discuss][citation needed]."

Freezing was definitely a problem on hot days. The rest of the sentence was added to agree with the previous version. If you disagree, or you think it needs a citation - remove it ! 123.3.20.19 (talk) 05:02, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

I wore out more than my share of Commodore 64's, and the power supply was the culprit in every case. The problems would begin with the freezing problem mentioned. On my last 64, I do recall purchasing a "replacement" power supply, but do not remember who manufactured it, where I purchased it, or what type of power supply it was - but I do remember it being smaller than the brick that came with the 64, and ran a lot cooler. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.111.33.98 (talk) 01:50, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

CBM prg Studio

Interesting Find. CBM prg Studio allows you to type a BASIC or machine code program in using a nice Windows environment and convert it to a '.prg' file which you can run on an emulator, or even real hardware. http://www.ajordison.co.uk/screenshots.html • Sbmeirow • Talk • 01:38, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Navy CIS refers to Commodore 64 :-)

The Navy CIS season 4 part 14, that is actually filmed in this decade.., mentions Commodore 64 circa ~30 minutes in when they found the software for "ARES" and makes the comparison that you need something to run it on like a PlayStation.. or Commodore 64 ;-), something new unlike McGyver that also used C64 on occasion. Electron9 (talk) 22:11, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Youtube video

With regard to this edit, and surrounding edits.

I find myself conflicted over it. Whilst I agree that Youtube videos are rarely candidates for inclusion - and have remvoed many an edit on such grounds - I feel that this one may be an exception.

The video is clearly very well made, looks very good (especially in the HD format) and references many C=64 games, both in their original format and a modern rendering. (Although I'm amused that one of the more prominent sections dedicates itself to Manic Miner which was a star of the C=64's arch enemy.) There is also reference to many of the demo coders, and to cassette inlays of games as well.

The only thing that I think is a letdown is that the music should be a chiptune.

A fan of the C=64 will be able to watch this video and wallow in nostalgia, whilst a newcomer to the C=64 will be able to watch it and gain a quick history of the games, the quantity, and other developments/coders that surounded the machine.

Youtube clips are not exclusively banned from Wiki, and that "There is no blanket ban on linking to YouTube or other user-submitted video sites, as long as the links abide by the guidelines on this page". This video meets the requirements as set out, so I'm reinstating it. Chaheel Riens (talk) 13:01, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Why is the CS6 referred to in this tense? Why does it say "was"? Should it not say "is"? It still exists. I mean, If I had a sandwich and ate it I would say "That was a good sandwich." However, if I took one bite out of the sandwich, I would say "This is a good sandwich. Not to step on any toes, but I think a change should be considered. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mastermichael64 (talk • contribs) 02:35, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

File:Commodore-64-Computer.jpg to appear as POTD

Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:Commodore-64-Computer.jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on March 25, 2013. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2013-03-25. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page. Thanks! — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:38, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Picture of the day

The Commodore 64 is an 8-bit home computer introduced in 1982 by Commodore International. Its low retail price and easy availability led to the system becoming the market leader for three years. It remains the best-selling single personal computer model of all time.Photo: Evan Amos

'Winning the market war' - Europe citations

There isn't a citation for this statement: "The C64 would later rival the Spectrum in popularity in the latter half of the 1980s, eventually outselling the Spectrum after 1985." Its a very specific assertion, which needs a citation or should be amended or dropped. Also, it needs to be clarified as to whether it refers to the European market as a whole, or the UK market which has just been used in the paragraph for price comparisons. NeatlyTiled (talk) 16:27, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Past vs. Present Tense

I noticed, starting in the lead, the Commodore is referred to in the present tense. Is it still being produced and sold commercially in any appreciable fashion? If not, why do we not us the past tense? Out of curiousity I looked at Apple IIe and IBM PC jr. Unfortunately, it was not definitive...one is present tense, one past. In general, I think common parlance would lean toward past tense unless something was actively still being produced. I'm not set on this, just wondering what the rationale was for the present tense? In other arenas, things that used-to-be-but-are-no-more (Try "Edsel", "R.E.M") we use the past tense. The argyment that there are still c64s out there being used would apply to Edsels as well, for instance, but we wouldn't say the Edsel IS a car model...it WAS a car model. We tend to refer to manufactured goods in tenses baded on the currency of their production, not on whether there are still units floating around in service.204.65.34.246 (talk) 19:25, 25 March 2013 (UTC)