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This is an archive of past discussions on Wikipedia:WikiProject Football. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

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Extremely small squads

Is there any merit to edits like this? Does it add anything to a club's article to list the name of one player on the current squad........? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:15, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

No.--Echetus Xe 19:22, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

It should be removed first-and-foremost because it's unreferenced; and secondly because it's ridiculous. One player is not a "current squad." Giant Snowman 10:19, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

I think one-player squad lists are silly, but where it is incomplete there is the {{listdev}} template. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 12:33, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

F.C. Porto in international club football (FAC)

Dear project members, I've come to ask for your contribution in this FAC nomination. So far, it has been reviewed by two editors, so I would very much appreciate feedback from this project. Regards. Parutakupiu (talk) 16:11, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

Flags again

Per this recent discussion here, I wonder if anyone supports the use of flags for managers and players (e.g. captains in the table) at 2012–13 Premier League and similar. In their roles as Premier League (or any club league) players, their status as being nationally aligned to one country or another is not important. Accordingly, one point of view may be that such flags should be removed from articles. Thoughts? Thanks, C 679 09:10, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

They should be removed with prejudice. Club captains are not representing their national sides in the Premier League, and that goes doubly for managers. Whether you'll get away with it is another matter. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 09:02, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

Results that clinched the title/promotion

Recently I have been removing a lot of instances of "on April 20 Foo Rovers gained promotion following a 2-2 draw with Foo United", but other editors, usually IPs, keep adding them back in. My reasoning is that promotion is based on a whole season's worth of results, not the outcome of one particular game, and describing the game which clinched promotion in that way (especially when it is the only thing said about the whole season, which it is in some cases) could give non-experts the impression that clubs can be promoted based only on the result of one match. I note that no article ever lists a specific result that clinched promotion for anyone in the pre-internet era. Thoughts......? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 17:05, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

This isn't just an Internet-based phenomenon: this is just one example. Malpass⁹₃! (what I've been ^up to/_drop me a ^___) 17:23, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

I realise that the press have always reported this sort of thing. What I meant by my earlier comment was that you don't see articles on Wikipedia that say things like "in 1953 the team were promoted following a 0-0 draw with Burnley". That information is extremely hard to find for pre-internet seasons, therefore it's recentist and undue weight to report it for more recent seasons...... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 19:36, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

I disagree (but then I would say that). It is mostly a matter of context and how it is worded. Obviously, hasty day of promotion additions in breathless detail are often inappropriate. But I see nothing wrong with something along the lines of "Foo Rovers secured automatic promotion on the final day of the season, after a 2–2 draw with Foo United." Oldelpaso (talk) 20:02, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

And Foo Rover's second half performance was so nervous that it nearly read, "on April 20 Foo Rovers gained promotion following a 2-3 defeat by Foo United, as Foo Vale also failed to win." Kevin McE (talk) 00:35, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

I concur that highly dramatic/well remembered finishes like last season's Premier League or Carlisle's Jimmy Glass incident should definitely be mentioned, but is it really necessary to mention that Cardiff's promotion was confirmed by a 0-0 draw with Charlton three games from the end of the season? In 20 years' time will anyone remember/care......? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:11, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

The simple answer here is that the vast majority of anonymous help we get in this way is from fanboys, and there is no point fighting it as it happens. Let it lie until next season and then clean it up, once they've moved on to glorifying the following campaign. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 09:00, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

Just to add my thoughts... Although the season needs to be considered as a whole one must also consider the chronological happenings in the season. Instances such as promotion, qualification for other competitions (ECL, Europa etc) are all viable the whole article as the season progress. Of course if it isn't provided with references then the entry is highly questionable and grounds for deletion. Brudder Andrusha (talk) 17:26, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Importance of La Liga

So, the Premiere League championship is listed at Wikipedia:In the news/Recurring items meaning that assuming the corresponding article has been updated, the winner of the Premiere League should be listed at ITN every year. Perhaps my experience with football has been different from reality, but it has always seemed to me like La Liga was a more major league from a global perspective or at least on equal grounds with the Premiere League. With that in mind, I was surprised that the Premiere League was listed at ITN/R while La Liga wasn't. I considered starting a discussion about adding La Liga, but I thought I'd come here and ask some people who know far more than me about the importance of La Liga and whether or not it would be worth starting discussion, because I certainly wouldn't be able to make a compelling argument for adding it. Ryan Vesey 03:03, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

As the lead of the article in question states, the Premier League is the most-watched football league in the world. It's certainly worth considering the addition of La Liga. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 09:01, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

We have always been at war with Eastasia

Mario Götze will be joining Bayern in the summer, so there'll be a lot of people trying to change his official club between now and the transfer window. I think this is fine after the active season is over for both clubs' competitions, although others disagree. I can even sort of understand people making that edit now, maddening and stupid as it is, given he has 6-7 games still to play for Dortmund. But listing him as a winter transfer? The mind boggles. Why not stick him on the bench at 1999 UEFA Champions League Final for good measure? ArtVandelay13 (talk) 12:37, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

I dare say that it took you longer to craft that response than it did to roll back the edit in question. For what it's worth, the IP in question is based in India, and Winter in India stretches into April, so this is plausibly an internationalistic hiccup (compounded by the general ignorance regarding when to date transfers that we have trouble with all the time). Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 13:20, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

GA review request

I have just nominated The Oval (Belfast) for GA status, can someone from the project please give it a review? The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 16:35, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

I've been reviewing a few football GA candidates recently, but there's several football articles higher up in the queue so you are likely to have some time to wait yet. If anyone fancies some reviewing, there's currently a backlog of 63 nominations in the Sports and recreation category of Wikipedia:Good article nominations. Football related ones include Shimizu S-Pulse, Pavel Nedvěd, Gordon Banks, Cristiano Ronaldo, Neville Southall, C.A. Peñarol, Richard Cresswell and more. Oldelpaso (talk) 17:24, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Club honours

Does playing three games (out of 30) in the 2004–05 Alpha Ethniki warrant an "honour" for the league championship, as at Peter Philipakos? Or the (maximum) two matches of the eleven the club played in the 2004–05 Greek Cup? Thanks, C 679 09:01, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

Well if the rules in Greece are the same as in England (as I recall/understand them), he would not have got a medal, if that's any help...... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:08, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

That's what I'd imagine, and the article seems to have been majorly edited by someone who appears to be a personal connection of the subject, but it would be good to have some more opinions before I remove it. Thanks, C 679 09:12, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

In my view even 0 games played would warant that. Just being in the squad, training with the team and possibly pushing them. It's also the easiest to verify inclusion criteria. -Koppapa (talk) 17:16, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

Like Chris says, there is likely a rule in Greece (as in England and elsewhere) which states you must play at least X games to qualify for a winner's medal. However, that is WP:OR; we need WP:RS to WP:V. Giant Snowman 17:23, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

OR it may be, but doesn't WP:BURDEN say that if it's not referenced, it may be removed until such a time where one can be provided? C 679 22:21, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

In many countries 1 appearance is enough, and in many also even being part of the roster is also enough, just as Koppapa said. Now, I am not sure about Greece, however assuming English exemple is unworthy for other countries as many don´t apply any minimum appearances. FkpCascais (talk) 03:24, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

For future reference, how many appearances are required to earn a winners medal in England? The Premier League website says 10 but I cannot find any information with regard to the Football League. Also, how should the honour be referenced on a players page? A link to Soccerbase showing games played that season? Cheers. T 88 R (talk) 16:05, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

It's 10 games because that's a quarter, so 12 would be the threshold in the football league. As others have said, I wouldn't at all assume that this rule applies on the contintent - in Germany all squad members get a medal, and this is much more the norm. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 16:49, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

Have you got a source showing 12 appearances is the threshold to gain a Football League medal? Eldumpo (talk) 19:16, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

There must be a valid reference somewhere. In yesterday's ManUtd - Villa game the commentator's spent a few minutes about 10 games being the threshold for getting recognition of the award. Brudder Andrusha (talk) 17:29, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

We should never, ever assume that because a player has met the minumim threshold of appearances then he has therefore won a medal. ONLY is WP:RS confirm it. To answer C679's earlier question - no source = no honour. Giant Snowman 19:32, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

This article might be of interest - especially about Mateja Kezman. Giant Snowman 12:52, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

No one likes us, we don't care

According to the article No one likes us, we don't care, "the image of many Millwall fans as hooligans [was] perpetuated by certain sections of the media" (italics added for emphasis). This reads like a slur towards the press and is quite pov, it's taking sides for Millwall and against the press. Is it really the job of Wikipedia to take sides? 94.209.187.34 (talk) 22:05, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

TBH most of the article appears to be a coatrack for defending Millwall's reputation...... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:39, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

John Mackie DOB

Does anyone please have a DOB for John Mackie, a Scottish player who played for Hull, Bradford City and Chesterfield in the 1930s? Giant Snowman 18:50, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

1 March 1910. ref: {{cite web |archiveurl=http://web.archive.org/web/20120329032402/http://www.chesterfield-fc.co.uk/staticFiles/fd/49/0,,10435~150013,00.xls |url=http://www.chesterfield-fc.co.uk/staticFiles/fd/49/0,,10435~150013,00.xls |format=Excel spreadsheet |first=Stuart |last=Basson |title=Football League players, 1921 to 2009 |publisher=Chesterfield F.C |date=18 February 2010 |archivedate=29 March 2012}} cheers, Struway2 (talk) 08:23, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

fixed archiveurl link... Struway2 (talk) 08:55, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Perfect, cheers, will create the article tonight and disambiguate the related articles. Giant Snowman 11:41, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Fernando Pires

Does anyone have any more on this guy? I think he was a coach with Nacional Funchal in c.1989 and coached Brazil women in the 1991 Women's World Cup, but I can't find a decent source. Perhaps one of our clever Portuguese speakers can help? Clavdia chauchat (talk) 22:12, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

There appears to be another Fernando Pires. I don't really know which was the coach though. But it shpuld be the Brazilian as FIFA has an added (BRA) after his name. -Koppapa (talk) 07:11, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Perfect, thanks Koppapa. I guess the Nacional coach was this other Portuguese guy. Clavdia chauchat (talk) 13:36, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Pub football

Does anyone know what to make of this, various sources including BBC, Telegraph and Daily Record reported on 13 June 2001 that a pub team, Stockport Town, had played a match in Prague against a club celebrating their 150th anniversary, purportedly Meteor and got a 14–1 thrashing. This immediately seems dubious, considering the world's oldest club, Notts County F.C., only celebrated its 150th anniversary in November 2012. Also RSSSF reports that the oldest club in the Czech Republic dates back to "just" 1892, a mere 109 years before the story was reported. Meteor is actually listed there as being founded in 1896 which may indicate a typo on 150 (105). However, looking in more detail, there are other things which do not tally. BBC and Daily Record reported Meteor as a professional team playing in the second tier, but no team in the league that season matches the description. Even in the third tier, RSSSF lists nothing matching Meteor. What else? Two sources also mention a second match, played against a "FC Strichlov", most likely a typo of FC Střížkov Praha, noting the club had just won the Czech second division. According to the RSSSF table linked earlier, they were playing in the third tier and finished second behind Kolin. So what is it? A hoax? Poor journalism? Does this story have a place on Wikipedia at all? Perhaps someone can shed some more light on this. Thanks, C 679 11:43, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Also Manchester Evening News recycled the story in April 2005, noting that the event had occurred "last month". Did it happen at all, I wonder. C 679 11:45, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

For the record, Notts County are not "the world's oldest club", Sheffield F.C. are...... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 11:56, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Sorry Chris, I just got that from the Notts County Wikipedia article lead. C 679 12:04, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Notts County lead clarified. As regards the news piece, I think the simple answer here is that the world was a much larger place in 2001 before literally every schoolchild in the UK was possessed of a universal instant pocket fact-checker. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 12:46, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

As a sidenote, Oldest football clubs may be of interest. Giant Snowman 12:52, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

So would anyone consider there is anything here to add to the Meteor page? C 679 13:03, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Definitely not. The club can't have been 150 years old in 2001, as that would make them older than Sheffield F.C. and surely something would have been written about that. Maybe the match was celebrating the 150th anniversary of something else.......? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 13:56, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

As my original post, most likely a typo. Even the Sokol movement is not old enough to have been celebrating 150 years in Prague in 2001. Anyway it doesn't matter if it's true, does it? C 679 17:26, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Ruud Krol @ Vancouver Whitecaps

I want try to enlarge the article on it.wiki, somebody has something about his year in Canada? Thanks! 93.62.175.125 (talk) 13:48, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Article Merger input request

There is a proposal that the List of Queen of the South F.C. seasons article be merged into History of Queen of the South F.C. (or possibly even just delete the first one, and merge both into Queen of the South F.C.). Additional input is needed. Discussion >>>HERE<<<. (posted by User:GenQuest on project page). Jmorrison230582 (talk) 06:12, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Tables of international goals

Earlier today, GiantSnowman made a series of edits stating "tables of int'l goals against consensus at WP:FOOTY, especially one so very, very complicated" for each one. A few moment ago, Hmlarson reverted all of them. This is an example of the revert. There are also articles related to international goals by such players. So should we be encouraging the inclusion or removal? Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:59, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Why should we remove the information it is properly sourced and referenced? It is relevant to the article, I don't see why we shouldn't have it. Anyone have a link to the original discussion mentioned by GiantSnowman? TonyStarks (talk) 02:22, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

You may not be aware but I was not the only editor to revert GiantSnowman's edits made to articles about 17 individual (women) footballers. As two other editors have asked (in addition to myself), where is the original discussion mentioned by GiantSnowman for the rationale behind the removal of these longstanding informational sections? Hmlarson (talk) 04:11, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps that should be three editors now ... as apparently WalterGorlitz is unaware of any consensus or or nonconsensus on this particular issue either. Hmlarson (talk) 04:20, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Personally I don't like having these as separate articles. When anyone scoring 1 or 2 international goals can have his own goals article that's gonna be a mess. Remember when we had 13 articles for Pele's goals? Pele carreer goals (200-300) and so on. It's better to improve the International section within the article than to add huge stats, like who made the most assists to Christine Sinclairs carreer goals. Isn't there a website listing international goals? That would be a useful addition to the external links, not everything has to be up in wikipedia. -Koppapa (talk) 04:53, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

The original discussions were here and here. -- Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 05:10, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

The newest discussion was about international matches tables, despite the misleading title. I can't really see a consensus in the discussion from four years ago, I think that is one of those discussion where editors disagree without reaching a consensus. I guess we should have another discussion about this? Mentoz86 (talk) 07:56, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Another discussion is fine by me - though there is, to my mind, plenty of consensus against these kind of tables. The ones that Hmlarson has restored to a number of women articles are the very worst examples I have seen - they are over-complicated, and yet at the same time incomplete (only using goals from World Cup or Olympics) and they therefore serve little-to-no-purpose, as well as violating WP:NOTSTATS. if you are to have an international goals table, then they should be incredibly simple, something along the lines of this or similar which is found in many articles, and which I grudgingly accept. Hmlarson and other editors who concentrate on women's football seem to believe those articles are subject to a different MOS or rules, which is simply not the case. The tables also rely on a far-too-complicated key, which is underdiscussion at TFD. Giant Snowman 11:53, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Recently, a standalone list of around 150 international goals (by Abby Wambach) was kept as no consensus to delete in an AFD. Whether it wanted to or not, the AFD set two precedents as far as I can tell... (1) international goals are notable enough for inclusion in Wikipedia (2) standalone lists of goals are just are not objectionable to the community, assuming they meet WP:SAL. I don't think we should be removing international goal lists or lists within articles, based on this recently decided consensus. Consensus can change, but this consensus was reached less than a fortnight ago... The Rambling Man (talk) 12:17, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

I don't really mind either way, but the format of the tables in articles like Bettina Wiegmann are awful to say the least, and should be deleted just because of how plain dreadful they are. Who on earth came up with that format??? Number 5 7 12:22, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes, some of the formatting is undesirable but that's no real reason to delete all of the facts. I'll happily tidy tables up, just say the word. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:25, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Rambling Man - "no consensus" is not the same as an article being "kept." Giant Snowman 12:28, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Quite, that's why I said "kept as no consensus to delete". It demonstrates that the community did not want to delete the list. So it shows there's a very recent consensus to "not delete" the lists.... The Rambling Man (talk) 12:33, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

It also demonstrates that the community did not want to "keep" the lists - there's a very recent consensus to "not keep" the lists... Giant Snowman 12:41, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Well this is circular. The point is the list wasn't deleted, whether you want to say that means it wasn't kept or not is not important to the fact that the list still exists. And it's an extreme example, a standalone list, and a poorly formatted one. The vast majority of lists are kept within bio articles, and the majority are not as badly formatted as that one. I wouldn't want to second-guess the community but since that list still "exists", lists which aren't standalone and better formatted are "more likely" to be "kept" than not. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:48, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Number 57 - yes, that's my main issue with them as well. As I stated before, they are over-complicated and incomplete - if we agree to have international goals tables, then they should be as simple and clutter-free as possible, something like this. Giant Snowman 12:28, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

It's simple, but also incomplete according to the one reference used. It also didn't meet MOS:DTT (it does now), we need to be careful selecting articles to use as a golden standard, especially if they fall foul of one of the issues you have in the first place (i.e. completeness, or lack thereof...) The Rambling Man (talk) 12:39, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

I didn't highlight it as a golden standard, it is the last one I remember poppin up on my Watchlist (the table was added by another user a few days ago) - what am I saying is that we should be aiming for that kind of table, not the style on these women articles. Giant Snowman 12:41, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Steve Callethi

An interesting case here - looks like a page for a fake footballer including a fake twitter account and youtube video, which has been kicking about sicne August 2012. I would appreciate if a few people looked at this to confirm/counter my suspicions! Super Nintendo Chalmers (talk) 08:34, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Definite hoax, I have deleted. Giant Snowman 10:44, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

"MLS" v. "the MLS"

An American editor has correctly pointed-out that the definite article should not be used before "MLS" and stated that British newspapers that do so should be ignored and is requesting that we stop using the definite article. Discussion was started at Talk:Major League Soccer#" v. "the MLS". Please continue the discussion there. Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:23, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Seeing as you've threatened to continue to edit war over this on the Chivas talk page, allow me to present a similar ultimatum: if I see you warring over such a blatantly obvious case of MOSVAR again (whether on a page where it is utterly obvious that the US style should be used, such as on an MLS team's article, or on a less obvious case like a UK-centric article that mentions MLS) I'll be issuing a 48 hour block. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 14:45, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Actually, I didn't threaten anything there. What I did was state that consensus should be respected, but it must first be achieved. Also, it's not MOSVAR at all. The definite article is used in both North American and British sources. Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:00, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

If an editor points out a local convention, and your response is "that five are British shows that they, who invented the language, are using it correctly", it's a MOSVAR issue. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 15:12, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

You're missing the whole discussion so I'll copy the two North American sources I found here:

Five of the seven, and I stopped at seven, but could have added at least twenty more. Chris, please assume clue on my part and don't take sides until you understand the whole story.

The other editor claimed that the British sources should be discounted. I don't know why. I'll assume that it's because the league is not British, which could be a valid argument, but it's an enthymeme and so I took one conclusion. It's not an ENGVAR case Chris. Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:40, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Ismael Blanco

His article says that he is Egyptian descent citing a Goal.com article. Considering that Goal is not a very reliable source in my opinion and the fact that I haven't found the information anywhere else, I was hoping a fluent Spanish speaker can help confirm or deny the information. So far I haven't been able to find anything that would suggest that he is. TonyStarks (talk) 03:05, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

@@ Line 142: / Line 142: @@
 :::: Five of the seven, and I stopped at seven, but could have added at least twenty more. Chris, please assume clue on my part and don't take sides until you understand the whole story.
 :::: The other editor claimed that the British sources should be discounted. I don't know why. I'll assume that it's because the league is not British, which could be a valid argument, but it's an enthymeme and so I took one conclusion. It's not an ENGVAR case Chris. [[User:Walter Görlitz|Walter Görlitz]] ([[User talk:Walter Görlitz|talk]]) 16:40, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
+== [[Ismael Blanco]] ==
+His article says that he is Egyptian descent citing a Goal.com article. Considering that Goal is not a very reliable source in my opinion and the fact that I haven't found the information anywhere else, I was hoping a fluent Spanish speaker can help confirm or deny the information. So far I haven't been able to find anything that would suggest that he is. [[User:TonyStarks|TonyStarks]] ([[User talk:TonyStarks|talk]]) 03:05, 3 May 2013 (UTC)