Wikipedia:Village pump (miscellaneous)

 Policy Technical Proposals Idea lab WMF Miscellaneous 

• Table of contents
• First discussion
• End of page
• New post

The miscellaneous section of the village pump is used to post messages that do not fit into any other category. Please post on the policy, technical, or proposals pages, or – for assistance – at the help desk, rather than here, if at all appropriate. For general knowledge questions, please use the reference desk.

« Archives, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80

Does anyone reading this happen to speak Tagalog?

If so, please correct this abominable translation that I got off Google in a time of desperate need. Thanks!  — TORTOISEWRATH 03:17, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

• Translation has been fixed and cleaned. - AnakngAraw (talk) 01:17, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
  • I did some further work on the translation. Hope this helps as well. --Sky Harbor ^(talk) 07:38, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
    • Thanks!  — TORTOISEWRATH 01:41, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Survey

Hi, I'm not really sure if this is the right place for this (Or if there is a right place anywhere for it), but I am trying to conduct a brief survey of Wikipedia users for a sociology class. If anyone could take a few minutes to take it, then it would be much appreciated. The Survey is only 8 questions and is confidential. If I shouldn't be posting this here, I'm sorry. Is there another place for general purpose discussion? Thanks.

--Passerby30 (talk) 03:39, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

• I'm not a professional, but this looks like the right place to me. (I took it.)  — TORTOISEWRATH 04:19, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
• If you want people to take it, it's customary to say something like "It's only 8 questions, and it's totally confidential". If you want more information, you might start at WP:Research. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:45, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Thanks for the tip. I edited the original post accordingly --Passerby30 (talk) 05:09, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

I took the survey. Let us know how your class assignment turns out! -- Atlantima ~✿~ (talk) 15:45, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Template (at creating an article)

I typed an impossible word to generate the template text when trying to create another article. Just to show the text where the full stop at the end after the question mark should be deleted. I cannot find the template name (or the automatic text) on my own, so I can't edit the text. So, don't create the article Beletirxkh of course.

This is the jpg of the text (internetlink)

Dartelaar [write me!] 09:39, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

This text comes from Template:No article text. It's a protected page, so I cannot remove the extra full stop myself. -- John of Reading (talk) 09:46, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Actually, it seems to be MediaWiki:Noarticletext, and requires an admin. I may be wrong, but I believe that it's technically correct according to some authorities, because the question mark is part of the title of a work, not the end of the sentence itself. The sentence works like this: You should read "O Captain! My Captain!" and "Do not go gentle into that good night". If you reverse the order of the works, so that the one ending in an exclamation mark is at the end, it's not strictly necessary to remove the full stop from the end of the sentence: You should read "Do not go gentle into that good night" and "O Captain! My Captain!". WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:24, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

disambiguation

Sorry to post this here, but I'm not computer-literate and have given up on figuring out what all these cute link names mean.

Somebody who knows how to do it should put some kind of disambiguation notice on the "Eastern Congo Initiative" page to distinguish that NGO from the Congo Initiative (http://www.congoinitiative.org/), a similar but unrelated NGO based in Wisconsin and affiliated in some fashion with the Université Chrétien Bilingue du Congo, in Beni, Kivu-Nord, DR Congo. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.155.175.147 (talk) 15:05, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

We would need an article about the other NGO, before we can add a disambiguation hatnote pointing towards it. We don't make red-link hatnote messages. –Quiddity (talk) 20:32, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia's early stock market warning signs

Here's an interesting PhysOrg article about correlations between numbers of Wikipedia article reads and fluctuations in the stock market.

http://phys.org/news/2013-05-wikipedia-early-stock.html

The study suggests that significant profit margins could be produced from the data. The implications for Wikipedia may be concerning. Praemonitus (talk) 00:53, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

How so? If you mean in terms of the Wikimedia Foundation's US non-profit status, this isn't generating revenue for the Foundation and the Foundation isn't themselves causing these fluctuations, so (though I'm not a tax expert) I don't think that should be a problem.  — TORTOISEWRATH 00:59, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Well, once Wikipedia is being used for market prediction, the possibility exists that the article view statistics could be manipulated for the purposes of adjusting the market. Wikipedia as a source of market research will also provide increased incentive to modify business articles so as to present a favorable (or unfavorable) perspective. Even a brief vandalism, presented at the right time, could influence purchase decisions. These financial incentives do not favor article neutrality. Praemonitus (talk) 14:33, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

And since Wikipedia is vulnerable to such manipulation, anyone using it as a means to predict the market is an idiot. I see no reasons why we should take any special precautions regarding the stupidity of investors. Not that there is anything we can realistically do about it anyway... AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:46, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Yes there is: a suitable time delay introduced between the collection and the publication of the data would eliminate the usefulness of the statistic to any outside viewers. Praemonitus (talk) 23:46, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Any potential risk to investors is covered by Wikipedia:General disclaimer#Not professional advice. Of course there is a potential for people to try to manipulate Wikipedia in this sphere for their own ends, just as there is in articles about politics, religion, nationalist disputes etc. I don't see any greater concern raised by that report, which just seems to point out the obvious: that people look for information on the Internet before making financial decisions and that Wikipedia articles appear near the top of many search rankings. Phil Bridger (talk) 15:31, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

"[A]nyone using it as a means to predict the market is an idiot" - hear hear. Theopolisme (talk) 15:49, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Some of those idiots may be billionaires. I wonder whether the data is granular enough to detect a point of origin and thus potentially determine the independence of the queries? Praemonitus (talk) 17:31, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Transclusion doesn't comply with copyrights

Once you transclude or substitute something, nothing attributes the content to the original authors as required by cc-by-sa. Everytime we click save, it says that we agree a link is enough attribution, however, transclusion doesn't even do that. We are violating our own copyrights. Ramaksoud2000 ^{(Talk to me)} 00:00, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

I cannot speak on the precise legal requirements but when you click the "Edit"/"View source" tab, the bottom of the page has links to all transcluded pages. Substitution works differently. Maybe Wikipedia:Substitution#Usage should mention license requirements or refer to Wikipedia:Copying within Wikipedia. The latter could also mention substitution as an example of copying. PrimeHunter (talk) 01:05, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Yes, but that would be like a website having a photo and having to view the source of that website in order to attribute, which isn't a link.. Ramaksoud2000 ^{(Talk to me)} 01:30, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean. "Edit"/"View source" is a link on all Wikipedia pages. The resulting page has links to transcluded pages at the bottom. Those pages have a "View history" link. So you can definitely get there by clicking links, although it's up to three links and hard to find when you don't know the system. For external reusers you usually get at least one more link. Wikipedia:Text of Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported License isn't specific about how to give attribution. MediaWiki:Wikimedia-copyrightwarning says: "You agree that a hyperlink or URL is sufficient attribution under the Creative Commons license." Are you suggesting a change of this? The content that is transcluded rarely seems like the type of content where the method of attribution is something people would care much about. And most transclusions which display non-trivial content from another page have a "V" link to the template (usually a navbox) it transcludes from. PrimeHunter (talk) 16:32, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Here it says that an attribution link must be visible to those who can see the content: Wikipedia:Mirrors_and_forks#License. Also, substituting doesn't even do what you mention. Ramaksoud2000 ^{(Talk to me)} 18:07, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

You appreciate that our current mechanism for attributing any edit - the history link - is potentially a link after a link? Ironholds (talk) 05:13, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

I would note that the actual copyright license, as opposed to the ambiguously-official (is it a policy, an essay, what?) guidance on forks, merely requires attribution "reasonable to the medium or means You are utilizing". Ironholds (talk) 05:16, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

The link is there, however, someone looking for attribution wouldn't find it because it is under the "edit" section. Also, substituting does none if this. Ramaksoud2000 ^{(Talk to me)} 05:27, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

I had noticed you making a lot of edits like this one recently. I'm not sure that it's truly necessary, but if transclusion is good enough attribution for an image, then I don't really see why transclusion would not be good enough attribution for a template like {{Virus topics}}. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:28, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

That's not transclusion. That's a hyperlink. The template you linked doesn't need attribution because it just states words. However, the template in the edit you linked does because it has enough words that it can be copyrighted. Ramaksoud2000 ^{(Talk to me)} 16:35, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

The threshold for copyright is originality not that it does more than "just states words". Lists can be copyrighted. Template Virus topics may be copyrighted. Rmhermen (talk) 21:00, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

I just didn't know how to express it in words. Ramaksoud2000 ^{(Talk to me)} 21:30, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Rmhermen: or to put it another way, most of our templates are unlikely to be copyrighted ;p. Ironholds (talk) 21:38, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Rmhermen actually. Ramaksoud2000 ^{(Talk to me)} 21:42, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

List of gymnasts needs your help

There is an RfC at List of gymnasts which is not attracting any opinions so far. The discussion is about the future look and feel of this list, and I commend it to you. The list is currently good. It could be better. Your opinion will help that. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 08:51, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Wiki Loves Monuments 2013 in the United Kingdom is ready to go!

For the very first time, the UK community will be competing in the annual Wiki Loves Monuments competition in September. This is a community-led effort, with support from the UK chapter, Wikimedia UK. A number of volunteers have already expressed interest in helping to organize the contest, but there is much to be done and many more volunteers are needed, both now and over the coming few months.

If you would like to contribute towards making our first ever competition the great success we expect it to be, please visit Commons:Commons:Wiki Loves Monuments 2013 in the United Kingdom and leave your name there. Even if you are only able to offer us moral support, or want to take part as photographer in September, please leave your details anyway. You need not be based in the UK to help. --MichaelMaggs (talk) 15:31, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Do we have a place to ask for help with IPA?

Do we have a project or noticeboard where we can ask for help with adding IPA characters? I looked at Help:IPA and Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(pronunciation)#Entering_IPA_characters, and I don't see such a place mentioned. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:59, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Spoken Wikipedia/Pronunciation task force perhaps? Or there's always the reference desk or Wiktionary. Though usually the best solution is to add a made-up pronunciation and wait for someone to come along and correct it for you. ;-) --MZMcBride (talk) 20:17, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

A formal IP help page would be a worthwhile consideration. There is a lot of controversy about how words, particularly non English, or non American English place names, for example, are transcribed into the IPA. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 01:12, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

In a pinch, WP:RDL may be able to help. --Jayron32 01:55, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

French prisoners of war in Engeland

In File:Journal de Bruxelles nr 167 1800 (614, 615).png (colom 1) I read that French prisoners where mistreated in Portchester. I suspect they where held in Portchester castle. Strangely there is talk of a French commissioner being responsible for the mistreatment. Was it usual that the responsibility of the treatment of prisoners was by the country of the prisoners? This seams strange to me.Smiley.toerist (talk) 10:20, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Translation issue? Could it mean commissioner for French prisoners? rather than the commissioner being french. In any case this is something that ahould be asked at Wikipedia:Reference desk/Humanities.Geni (talk) 23:00, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Help Brazilian Wikipedia

Hey guys how are you doing? While getting involved with Brazilian Wikipedia community, I got access to some very interesting data. According to Wkimedia stats, whereas there are 22 English-speaker-editors per million, there are only 5 Portuguese-speaker-editors. That said, I was thinking of good strategies to improve editors' participation, to increase the number of editors and to convert more readers into editors (only 3% of Wikipedia Portuguese readers are also editors).

I know that Wikipedia in Enlish is a huge community and that you might face or have faced that very same problem. That said, I would very much appreciate if you could share some strategies/projects that have worked in English-speaking countries, in terms of tackling the aforementioned challenges.

I believe that cross-country collaboration among wikipedist has the potential of spreading good solutions! Phelps246 (talk) 06:10, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Editor Retention is the English language project best associated with this problem. Perhaps you could contact some people who are active there. --Jayron32 06:14, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Dear Jayron, I was reading about it yesterday and it indeed seemeed to be an incredibly initiative. I will most definitely be in touch with people who have been actively participating there to understand what has worked or not. Do you know any other interesting projects: for instance, initiatives that bring Wikipedia community closer to schools and universities, promote Wikipedia and attract new editors through social network (Facebook is the most accessed site in Brazil) and, in general, convert readers into editors (in Brazil only 3% of readers also edit). I do appreciate your help :) Phelps246 (talk) 12:11, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

One thing to note is that the en.wikipedia Editor Retention Project is mainly aimed at helping existing editors not to leave. It is not aimed at recruiting new editors, as such. The problem with the lack of Portugese-speaking editors is more how to recruit new editors, than how to retain existing ones. So it is a different problem.

I don't have proper figures, but I would guess that many of the Portugese speakers in the world are in places like Brazil, where internet access is generally less widespread than in the English-speaking world. Awareness of Wikipedia might be less widespread too!

So focusing on those issues may be more valuable than an editor retention initiative. I do know the UK Chapter has done some work on expanding awareness, but I'm sure other chapters will have too. It's worth having a look at all the different approaches, probably. (Perhaps someone could give links to places to look?)

There are also initiatives for giving out devices capable of accessing (maybe editing?) Wikipedia. Maybe you could request some of these be sent to Portugese-speaking areas that might need them? Or an entire separate grant to support a Wikipedia awareness drive in Portugese-speaking areas? (Perhaps someone could give links to places to look regarding the cheap device plan?) --Demiurge1000 (talk) 22:16, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Hello Phelps, it's a really hard problem. Converting readers into editors is tricky, you get a lot of trash contributions. Better concentrate on the newbies that are coming despite the markup etc. Try to improve editors' participation by making people aware of "easy tasks" on WP, for example a translation project with mentoring. Or ask for photos of monuments in articles Special:Nearby? Some interesting things to read:

• Wikipedia:Geo-targeted_Editors_Participation/report, Wikipedia:Geo-targeted Editors Participation (Philippines)
• meta:Editor Growth and Contribution Program (arabic etc.)

Phelps, I have a question about portuguese WP in return: You have activated both Article Feedback Tool 4 (Rate this page/Avaliar esta página - O que é isto?) and pt:Wikipédia:Informe um erro (Report an error feature/Wikibugs/Wikipedia:Kvetch) for readers. Do you think that this could "cannibalize" new editors? Clicking on the article-rating-stars or just leaving a note "to Wikipedia", instead of editing/contributing? This may be easier for readers - but it's not creating new editors? Do you make statistics on those features? Best of luck for your project! --Atlasowa (talk) 21:14, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

A new homepage on zh wikipedia

zh:Wikipedia:首页, it's a new homepage. --Qiyue2001 (talk) 09:19, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Pilkipedia

I just came across pilkipedia. I wonder if anyone on the Wiki thinks that there may be copyright implications here. Does Wikipedia have copyright on its presentation style. I think it does. Anyone looking at this site would surely agree that it is a blatant rip-off of the Wikipedia style. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jodosma (talk • contribs) 02:54, 18 May 2013

That wiki uses the same software as Wikipedia, Mediawiki, so it's no surprise that it looks similar. The software is released under a free licence so there is no copyright issue. Phil Bridger (talk) 19:40, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Yeah. Basically, that monkey at the top-left hand corner is what keeps them in the clear. If it were a globe there, then the WMF legal department would be giving them a good slapping! (Has happened before, and has resulted in sites being taken down.) --Demiurge1000 (talk) 21:35, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Category RfC

I just came across a category that has different issues with many of the articles in it. It may be too much for the photography project to handle. Details are in my new post at Category talk:Photography by genre. We probably don't need to discuss it here but I thought I would add the link so others can provide input or put it on watch lists. I also posted similar at the photography project. If it needs to be linked elsewhere or moved then feel free to do so or discuss a move there.--Canoe1967 (talk) 16:20, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

A good story: Samblanay

In 2007 an editor created a page Samblanay based on material from the 1911 Britannica. The article he used was titled "Samblançay" but that editor, being from Singapore, thought probably that the French "cé cédille" (ç) was some sort of unimportant decoration. Check the first version of the page for more creative spellings, which you can compare with its source the article "Samblançay" in the 1911 Britannica. Ok, mistakes do happen. But for 6 years that page has been around without anyone noticing. I did because I followed today's DYK Gibbet of Montfaucon and one thing led to another. So the completely spurious "Samblanay" form has had time to spread through the Internet. A Google search today returned 1230 hits. I did not check all of them, but all of them that I did check go back to that original 2007 Wikipedia blunder, including stuff on Facebook and in Wikipedia material repackaged and resold by outfits of the kind you are probably familiar with. Another collateral damage of "Wikipedia the encyclopedia that anyone can edit". I wonder how many other good stories like this one are out there. If there are enough we may even write a Wikipedia article about them! Contact Basemetal here 20:23, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Sadly this is complete nonsense, as the form Samblanay appears in 19th century historical books in French for the same title [1]. I suggest Basemetal's touching faith in the consistency of French late medieval spelling is entirely misplaced. Meanwhile he persists in removing this spelling from the article. Johnbod (talk) 21:34, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

I left on my talk page a remark about your examples from those "19th century historical books" (there's only two and for one of them Google got it wrong (the text is actually "Samblancay"). The other example might well be a typo in that "19th century historical book". Incidentally it's the only real example of "Samblanay" besides content repackaged from WP. You've got to admit that for a spelling variant that's not much. But let's ask the creator of the article where he got that spelling before making all sorts of speculations. Contact Basemetal here 21:42, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Check again - the scans of both books clearly show "Samblanay". They may both be wrong for all I know, but the mistake dates to the 1880s. This nonsense is how internet memes get started. Johnbod (talk) 21:46, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

I checked again. You're right both have in fact "Samblanay". Based on those two books we could include the variant "Samblanay" in the article with the caveat that this spelling is found only in those two sources and might be a typo. But I maintain the originator of this spelling in WP did not introduce it because he checked those two books but because he mistyped something he found in the 1911 Britannica. Contact Basemetal here 21:55, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

In the book from 1733 (Histoire de la Maison Royale de France, 1733, 3e éd., tome 8) it is certainly a typo, since under D "Jacques de Beaune, chevalier, ſeigneur de Samblançay" (also mentioning his famous condemnation to death "Sa fin déplorable eſt écrite par tous les hiſtoriens du temps […] il fut condamné à mort"), there is "1. Guillaume de Beaune, ſeigneur de Samblanay, qui ſuit" (=following) and on the following page "Guillaume de Beaune, ſeigneur de Samblançay". And in the bulletin from 1887 (Bulletin archéologique, historique et artistique de la Société archéologique de Tarn-&-Garonne, vol. 15, 1887, p. 156), judging from the only part we can see "la condamnation de Samblanay", this is most probably about the same Jacques de Beaune, and could be the same typo. So this seems to be a very weak reason to consider Samblanay a valid variant spelling, also considering the fact that in French, Samblançay is approximately pronounced "san-blan-sey" and Samblanay "san-blah-ney", which is quite different.

Moreover the first version of the article is exactly the text from the 1911 Brittanica, except that Samblançay is variously rendered as Samblanay in the entry title, Samblancay, or even Samblanqay. Oliv0 (talk) 08:08, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

The right spelling is Samblançay with ç. This is a family of lords owning the land named fr:Semblançay coming from Semblancorum. The French Wikipedia has an article on its most famous member, fr:Jacques de Beaune. There is long notice about him in Michaud, Biographie universelle ancienne et moderne, Paris, volume 37, pp. 584 et 585. He is also mentionned, e.g. in two letters of Agrippa, cf Joseph Orsier, Henri Cornélis Agrippa : sa vie et son oeuvre d'après sa correspondance : 1486-1535, Paris, 1911, pp. 24, 93, et 97. --Rene1596 (talk) 12:09, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Nobody is arguing otherwise, but anyone used to French (or English) medieval sources knows that variant spellings abound, and are not always the expected ones. It is unlikely that Samblançay is "coming from Semblancorum" - that is merely the Latinized form of an Old French name, used for official records, though it would be very typical if the oldest mentions are in Latin not French. Anyway this is clearly not an invention of the internet, or Wikipedia, nor frankly "a good story". Johnbod (talk) 14:08, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Though the frequent mention of the variant Samblanay on the Internet seems to have no other source than the Wikipedia typo or scanning mistake, Semblancorum is indeed not mentioned among the oldest Latin forms in Nègre, Toponymie générale de la France, which concludes that Semblançay = Latin proper name Simplicius + suffix -acum + influence (attraction) of blanc "white". Oliv0 (talk) 15:26, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Musical group origin question

This is a general question best illustrated by an example; should music group The Dead Lay Waiting be in

1. Category:Swindon
2. Category:People from Swindon
3. Category:Organisations based in Swindon

It started in the first, I moved it to the second, and it has now been moved to the third. I'm sure musical groups do not count as organisations; but do they count as people...GrahamHardy (talk) 22:46, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

RfC on new library search tool for Wikipedia

We have a new tool, Forward to Libraries, which helps readers find books at their local library related to the articles they are reading. There is an RfC at Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)#Linking subjects to books at your local library (Forward to Libraries) to determine how this tool should be used on Wikipedia. Users that are interested may wish to comment there. 64.40.54.57 (talk) 01:27, 20 May 2013 (UTC)