Jump to content

Talk:Marko Tsepenkov: Difference between revisions

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Browse history interactively
← Previous editNext edit →
Content deleted Content added
VisualWikitext
WavesSaid (talk | contribs)
238 edits
BattyBot (talk | contribs)
Bots
1,931,649 edits
m Talk page general fixes & other cleanup using AWB
Line 1: Line 1:
{{WikiProjectBannerShell|1=
{{WPBG|class=Stub|importance=Mid}}
{{WikiProject Bulgaria|class=Stub|importance=Mid}}
{{WPMKD}}
{{WikiProject Republic of Macedonia}}
{{WPBiography
|living=no
{{WikiProject Biography|living=no
|class=stub
|class=stub
|auto=yes
|auto=yes
|listas=Cepenkov, Marko
|listas=Cepenkov, Marko
}}
}}
}}


Revision as of 17:02, 8 June 2013

Macedonian

What is your problem with the language that is used in his works? That is pure Macedonian. Your argument that there was not Macedonian at his time is not relevant and reliable since the language existed no matter what in BG thought and no matter the codification. I am bringing back that statement since you do not need political act to recognize language. Have you seen such stupid thing? Look at his works, and if you know a bit inguistics you will understand my point. Do not revert obvious things. --MacedonianBoy (talk) 18:23, 14 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

He described himself and the Slavic poulation in Macedonia as Bulgarians. He described their language also as Bulgarian. The scientists of his time made the same. I undestand your point of view to change his identity postfactum, but I disagree. Jingby (talk) 14:31, 15 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If you take a look, I am not trying to change his ethnicity, I do not care about it. But the problem is in you guys, you do not want to accept the fact that his works are in Macedonian. That should not be neglected and the politics should not be mixed up with this statements. --MacedonianBoy (talk) 14:40, 15 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
His works are in the Prilep dialect which he himself described as Bulgarian, and which since 1945 is considered to be a dialect of Macedonian. Anyone unhappy with that? — Toдor Boжinov — 15:25, 15 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Scientific nomenclature can be a bitch when it doesn't fit our POVs. A certain dialect does not become something else after its classification is revised. He wrote in Macedonian, but named it something else in accordance with his personal and contemporary views. We do not say the Earth was flat, but since YYYY it has become a spheroid. We also don't mention this historical tidbit every time the shape of the Earth is discussed, because other articles deal with that in detail. --124.150.40.224 (talk) 15:46, 15 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Bulgarian dialect

Perhaps someone should provide an excerpt from the third source. The fourth and fifth sources do not back the statement as Cepenkov was not referring to the language of his texts (not even implicitly). --124.169.77.241 (talk) 13:28, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

For shure such language (Macedonian) did not exist at his time. Jingby (talk) 14:55, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

So what language was the Macedonian populace speaking at that time? --124.150.35.70 (talk) 16:03, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The variety he wrote in is most definitely the Prilep-Bitola dialect which is a Macedonian dialect. I don't understand what you're objecting to. --124.150.35.70 (talk) 16:10, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The fourth source states, "If they are Bulgarians, fine—we will understand each other; but if they are Turks or Vlachs, how will we understand each other?". It does not support the statement that he considered his dialect a Bulgarian one, only that Bulgarians would understand him. The fifth is a story about a Bulgarian-speaker and Turkish-speaker not understanding each other. It does not support the statement that he considered his dialect a Bulgarian one, only that the two men in the story could not communicate in the same language. --203.59.88.177 (talk) 02:39, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

In fact, in his own Autobiography he states, "I had already learned Bulgarian", "of the little Bulgarian I knew", "now I can sing in Bulgarian passably", "now I know Bulgarian somewhat". --203.59.88.177 (talk) 02:48, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Also: In Cepenkov's tales a Macedonian speaking Christian is a Bugarin, a Macedonian speaking Muslim is a Pomak ... and the Macedonian language is called Nashincki or Bugarcki. See: "Developing cultural identity in the Balkans: convergence vs divergence", Raymond Detrez, Pieter Plas, Peter Lang, 2005, ISBN 9052012970, p. 27. Jingby (talk) 10:30, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Nice quote. :) --124.148.245.171 (talk) 11:02, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I suggest these 2 sentences to be just removed, as it is irrelevant how it is called today, and thus to remove the contradiction this way of course: "Now his dialect is still considered Bulgarian dialect in Bulgaria.[8] Today, his dialect is classified as the Prilep-Bitola dialect of the Macedonian language.[citation needed]"
But unfortunately our EDITOR-IN-CHEIF Jingibay is here as he is everywhere... ;o)
95.42.33.131 (talk) 14:45, 10 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sources

Articles should rely on secondary sources whenever possible. For example, a review article, monograph, or textbook is better than a primary research paper. When relying on primary sources, extreme caution is advised: Wikipedians should never interpret the content of primary sources for themselves.

"In Cepenkov's tales a Macedonian speaking Christian is a Bugarin, a Macedonian speaking Muslim is a Pomak [...] and the Macedonian language is called Nashincki or Bugarcki". — "Developing cultural identity in the Balkans: convergence vs divergence", Raymond Detrez, Pieter Plas, Peter Lang, 2005

In his own time, his language was described differently by different people. Some called it "Bulgarian", others "Macedonian" and even "South/Old Serbian". The politics of the Bulgarian government are of no importance in this article. The Prilep-Bitola dialect is universally classified as a Macedonian dialect by all experts. --124.148.245.171 (talk) 12:48, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Only read the sources, but do not delete them! As you know, you are banned forever! Jingby (talk) 13:12, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You removed sourced material. I've been banned? --124.148.245.171 (talk) 13:18, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Language

He wrote in the Prilep-Bitola dialect of the Macedonian language. He identified as Bulgarian. It's fairly clear-cut. So why try and state that from a particular POV? --WavesSaid (talk) 03:03, 17 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You are aware that his POV is quite important for an article on himself? Do you want your POV to substitute his one? --Laveol T 03:17, 17 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, but as long as it remains his POV and doesn't override academic consensus. No, we should respect Cepenkov's choice of nation. --WavesSaid (talk) 03:53, 17 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
And what is the academic consensus about the language that Mr Cepenkov himself spoke. Is there a text on that topic particularly? --Laveol T 04:06, 17 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Cepenkov wrote in (and presumably spoke) the Prilep-Bitola dialect which is universally classified as Macedonian. --WavesSaid (talk) 04:20, 17 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Your source being?--Laveol T 04:25, 17 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The following are linguistic publications dealing with the Prilep dialect as Macedonian:

  • "In some west-central dialects to the west of Prilep (pr-macedonian), which border with the eastern Macedonian dialects [...]"[1]
  • "The Prilep (West-Central) dialect uses a perfect which is intermediary [...]" (Chapter Five: The Perfect and the Evidential, I. Macedonian)[2]
  • "This was actually a conservative change: it restored the historical intervocalic -v- which has been lost in many Macedonian dialects, including that of Prilep [...]"[3]
  • "As indicated in footnote 2, the Thracian Bulgarian dialects border on the easternmost Macedonian dialects of northern [...] This is still the case in Prilep-Veles, and evidence [...]"[4]
  • "[...] of dialects to the west of the Vardar river, in the area roughly defined by the quadrangle Prilep-Bitola-Kicevo-Veles."[5]
  • "The Macedonian literary language is based on the central dialects (Bitola - Veles - Prilep), but it has also liberally adopted forms from other dialects."[6]
  • "I shall take Standard Macedonian, which in this regard faithfully reflects its West Central dialectal base (Prilep-Veles-Kicevo-Brod), as exemplary of Balkan Slavic for this chapter."[7]

This one makes specific reference to the works of Cepenkov:

  • "Another indication of the dominance of Turkish during this period is that out of 155 anecdotal tales in Cepenkov's (1972) nineteenth-century Macedonian collection from the Prilep region [...] in addition to these 34 tales with interlingual code switching, there are 11 tales with dialectal code switches, given that the frame is Prilep Macedonian."[8]
  1. ^ Pieter Muysken. From Linguistic Areas to Areal Linguistics (John Benjamins Publishing, 2008), p. 206
  2. ^ Olga M. Tomić. Balkan Sprachbund Morpho-Syntactic Features (Springer, 2006), p. 342
  3. ^ Ulrich Ammon. Annuaire international de la sociolinguistique européenne, Volume 6 (Niemeyer Max Verlag GmbH, 1992), p. 137
  4. ^ Sanford B. Steever, Carol A. Walker, Salikoko S. Mufwene. Papers from the Parasession on Diachronic Syntax, April 22, 1976 (Chicago Linguistic Society, 1976), p. 100
  5. ^ Mark J. Elson. A diachronic interpretation of Macedonian verbal morphology (E. Mellon Press, 1990), p. 174
  6. ^ Östen Dahl. Tense and Aspect in the Languages of Europe (Walter de Gruyter, 2000), p. 479
  7. ^ Robert M. W. Dixon. Studies in Evidentiality (John Benjamins Publishing, 2003), p. 192
  8. ^ Raymond Detrez, Pieter Plas. Developing Cultural Identity in the Balkans: Convergence Vs Divergence (Peter Lang, 2005), p. 27

--WavesSaid (talk) 01:34, 18 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

None but the very last source mentions Cepenkov. And even if we take this as sole evidence, we still have a problem with changing the text, since it only states what it was and is now. It was once defined as Bulgarian, and defined as such by the author himself, and is now defined as Prilep Macedonian. Do we need to go through the entire history of the region in this particular article? --Laveol T 01:48, 18 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I said the Prilep-Bitola dialect was Macedonian and you asked me for a source. I provided you with seven. The Prilep-Bitola dialect did not go from being Bulgarian to Macedonian; only the name for it did. Cepenkov's use of the term "Bulgarian" only confirms this. This article is being written in the 21st century, not in Cepenkov's own time. And Cepenkov is not a linguist and even if he were, his views would be at odds with the rest of the world. No, this article is about Marko Cepenkov. There are other articles for that: ex. History of the Macedonian language. --WavesSaid (talk) 04:34, 18 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I asked you for a ref that Cepenkov wrote in Macedonian. Cepenkov's views matter about the article on him. Why would we need an article on him if we were to disregard him altogether? Or do we only need things that sit us? He was well aware what he was writing and on what language. Plus, what is the problem with the text, since it states what we've been discussing? --Laveol T 07:29, 18 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, in the lead is a sentence: Today, his dialect is classified as the Prilep-Bitola dialect of the Macedonian language.{Citation needed|date=May 2011} If you wont, just add one. Jingiby (talk) 08:08, 18 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

@Jingiby. That would be anachronistic. Only the terminology has changed since Cepenkov's time. His language is Macedonian, but it once was described as "Bulgarian". Let me put this in perspective for you: what would your argument be had he called his language "Chinese"? --WavesSaid (talk) 08:42, 18 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Irrelevant question. What are the similarities between the the languages, if any at all?--Laveol T 09:56, 18 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
We're discussing nomenclature, not mutual intelligibility. I'll play along... take Old English as an example then. Its speakers called it "English", but Wikipedia nevertheless makes a distinction. --WavesSaid (talk) 22:37, 18 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Irrelevant again. We are not discussing the evolution of a language. Do you have any actual serious suggestions? Cause we already told you that both things are already in the article. What else do you want? --Laveol T 00:50, 19 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
But we *are* discussing differences in nomenclature over time. My suggestion is that we do away with the wordy part about the language. This is a biographical article and shouldn't include all of the finer points of a language's history. We state the fact ("Cepenkov wrote in the Prilep-Bitola dialect of Macedonian") and perhaps include a footnote explaining his use of terms. --WavesSaid (talk) 01:47, 19 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Ahh, so this is what you were after. Why didn't you start with it? No wonder you want to remove his own view. But explain to us why his view, I remind you this is the article on him, is irrelevant in this case? Why a footnote? Why not simply state what it was and what is? But there's no way you'd like such wording, is there? Impartiality is important, especially in the case of an encyclopaedia. --Laveol T 07:19, 19 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
We're dealing with a statement of opinion. What I don't like is that this article uses three sentences to make that point. And you're wrong: the language didn't change, its name did. --WavesSaid (talk) 09:43, 19 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Where did I say it had changed? That way or the other, I would argue it did. Every language changes in what is a completely natural process. --Laveol T 14:45, 20 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"What it was and what is [sic]". Yes, but not to the extent that modern speakers use a different variety. --WavesSaid (talk) 23:23, 21 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Variety? --Laveol T 23:40, 21 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Variety (linguistics). --WavesSaid (talk) 00:16, 22 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

His language was Bulgarian, but today it is classified as Macedonian, after such language was codified. Jingiby (talk) 09:23, 18 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No, Macedonian only gained an additional variety after its standard was codified. According to the same logic, Bulgarian has only existed since 1899. --WavesSaid (talk) 09:29, 18 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

False. No chance. Full stop. Jingiby (talk) 09:52, 18 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This discussion isn't getting anywhere and you're being very discourteous, so I'm going to distance myself from this article and make a request for comment. --WavesSaid (talk) 11:11, 18 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Marko_Tsepenkov&oldid=558932589"