Wikipedia:Village pump (policy): Difference between revisions
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==[[Anthrax (UK band)]] vs [[Anthrax (band)]]== |
==[[Anthrax (UK band)]] vs [[Anthrax (band)]]== |
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[http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ARevolver_%28album%29&diff=561749355&oldid=561697291 Anthrax (UK band) Anthrax (band)] relates to [[WP:PDAB]] in archive 107 here. [[User:In ictu oculi|In ictu oculi]] ([[User talk:In ictu oculi|talk]]) 14:21, 27 June 2013 (UTC) |
[http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ARevolver_%28album%29&diff=561749355&oldid=561697291 Anthrax (UK band) Anthrax (band)] relates to [[WP:PDAB]] in archive 107 here. [[User:In ictu oculi|In ictu oculi]] ([[User talk:In ictu oculi|talk]]) 14:21, 27 June 2013 (UTC) |
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==RUDE!!!== |
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I had a wellcome message from an administrator and tried to answer "thank you" in his page without my user name, I hadnt logged in. Then I suddenly saw a message that I was not allowed to edit -I was blocked with a non specific message. I can still edit with my user name so if anybody has a problem with my edits (and I really can not imagine who and why) he must also block this account to. The messsage goes like that |
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"Editing from 46.103.0.0/16 has been blocked (disabled) by CT Cooper for the following reason(s): |
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Long term abuse: Range being used by Antony1821." I beleive it s a mistake but nevertheles when somebody can block just because he-she is an administrator, shouldn' he at least explain why? Shouldn't the blocked one know what he or seomebody else from his PC has done? It is really absolutely rude to block without explanations. Even if I wanted to ask to be unblocked (to "appeal")- I certainly would consider a priority to know what exactly the accusation is about. I am deeply dissapointed and I strongly suggest to be polite with women and men editing. It is absolutely necesssary to be polite and explain the reasons you block. This (the polite explanations) must be a central dicision[[User:Olmav|Olmav]] ([[User talk:Olmav|talk]]) 19:10, 27 June 2013 (UTC) |
Revision as of 19:10, 27 June 2013
Policy | Technical | Proposals | Idea lab | WMF | Miscellaneous |
If you want to propose something new that is not a policy or guideline, use the proposals section.
If you have a question about how to apply an existing policy or guideline, try the one of the many Wikipedia:Noticeboards.
Please see this FAQ page for a list of frequent proposals and the responses to them.
G5. Creations by banned or blocked users.
WP:SPEEDY "Pages created by banned or blocked users in violation of their ban or block, and which have no substantial edits by others. G5 should not be applied to transcluded templates. To qualify, the edit must have been made while the user was actually banned. A page created before the ban does not qualify. To qualify, the edit must be a violation of the user's block or ban. For example, pages created by a topic-banned user may be deleted if they come under that particular topic, but not if they are in some other topic."
During my seven-year history of writing articles for Wikipedia I have been blocked or banned at various times for my interpretation of the Manual of Style. As a result I resorted to using sockpuppets to make contributions. Now some of the articles written as far back as July 2011 have been singled out and deleted. I'm puzzled as to why these particular ones have been selected when there are well over 1000 to choose from. Personally I don't mind if the whole lot are removed, but what I do mind is the inconsistency in interpretation and application of G5, and in particular the lack of common-sense underlying the rule. I can understand the admins feeling that the perpetrator should be punished - what I don't understand is how Wikipedia benefits by deleting perfectly good articles. To be fair the admins I have chatted to are divided about deleting such contributions. Paul venter (talk) 20:26, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
- I apologize for the imperfections in our ability to detect sockpuppets. We do our best, but it is a difficult problem. If your first twenty or thirty attempts had been quickly discovered and reverted there is a good chance that you would have stopped abusing Wikipedia instead of going on to do it over a thousand times. As for you "minding" inconsistent applications of the rules, I refer you to the reply given in the case of Arkell v. Pressdram. When you decided to flout our rules you forfeited the right to criticize others for allegedly not following those same rules. --Guy Macon (talk) 05:36, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
- No need to apologise for any flaw in WP's sockpuppet detection mechanism as I didn't criticise it. Your use of the word 'abusing' though is interesting and rightly applies to my sockpuppetry, but you imply that somehow that same abuse has contaminated my contributions, and it is exactly that point with which I disagree - an editor's social or anti-social behaviour is not necessarily reflected in his contributions which should be judged on their own merit and not seen as fruit of the poisoned tree. WP is far from perfect and the rules managing its creation should be seen as a work in progress rather than divinely inspired commandments. Issues like this help to spotlight problem areas and with sensible input may hopefully lead to an improved WP. Paul venter (talk) 08:57, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
- It isn't mandatory that we delete such articles, but what G5 does is give us the ability to do so when necessary. It's another tool that allows us to remain flexible in dealing with a disruptive Wikipedia user and in quickly stopping disruption, but the existence of such a tool does not mean that we must use it every time. --Jayron32 05:48, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
- I'd like to point out that the user G-Zay was one where good contributions were interspersed with bad and masked into the very articles that he worked hard on. This is a good example of a reason why G5 exists; valid and positive contributions which are easily verified can be vetted and remain, but any questionable or unsourced work can be promptly removed under G5/BLP/etc. reasons. If I go an make an FA article; the FA doesn't go in the trash because it is assumed it is peer reviewed and factually accurate and so forth. Wikipedia's real issue is that some editors create hoaxes and insert false material to get back at Wikipedia or damage its credibility; G5 exists for that purpose where there is doubt, but no other easily applicable reason as to respond. Its the "if in doubt throw it out" clause. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 15:07, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
- You are free to disagree with the Wikipedia policy that says that your abuse has contaminated your contributions, but that is our policy and this is unlikely to change any time soon. The community has decideded with an overwhelming consensus that material added to Wikipedia by banned or blocked users in violation of their ban or block may be (but are not required to be) removed by any editor. Of course consensus can change, and it might very well be that your agruments are compelling enough to cause a new consensus to form that this policy should be changed, but until that happens, our current policy is that your abuse has indeed contaminated your contributions.
- Removing the incentive for abuse is in itself a desirable goal. Consider the widely held "we don't negotiate with hostage takers" policy. The logic is that, while negotiating is likely to benefit those particular hostages, it also sends a message that taking hostages works and thus leads to many more cases of taking hostages. Now of course I do not want to imply that there is any sort of equivalence between sock puppetry and hostage taking, but my first draft of this comment, where I used the analogy of a two-year-old throwing a tantrum, was even more offensive. The point is that if you reward a particular behavior you get more of it. Clearly you did not evade your block just because you wanted typing practice. The fact that those contributions actually modified the articles instead of being instantly reverted was your reward. Denying you that reward in order to discourage your behavior is a legitimate goal, irrespective of the actual content of your edits. --Guy Macon (talk) 15:16, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
- The fundamental flaw in the policy you outline above is that it assumes something sinister akin to terrorism in sockpuppets. What does it matter if an editor chooses to contribute under a score of different names so long as a contribution adds to the value of Wikipedia. On the other hand if false information is included in an article, deliberately or inadvertently, it will inevitably be corrected. To assume bad faith and blindly throw out contributions without having examined their merit is just plain silly, and flies in the face of the constant reminder that the most important consideration when weighing an issue is whether it improves Wikipedia. Paul venter (talk) 17:28, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
if false information is included in an article, deliberately or inadvertently, it will inevitably be corrected.
This is where your argument breaks down, as that's far from inevitable, particularly if cleverly done, and there are some very clever people out there. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 17:33, 12 June 2013 (UTC)- The entire point that everyone is missing is that we're allowed to delete such articles, but we are still not forced to delete such articles. Discretion is allowed, and many factors including the quality of the article, later good-faith contributions by other editors, and the specific nature of the block and/or ban in relation to the article itself can all be considered. At no point do we automatically purge Wikipedia of every contribution of every blocked or banned editor; but we have the option of doing so if it is necessary. Every case must be judged of its own specifics, and no general statement about if or when G5 would or would not be invoked can me made except in relation to an actual specific article and an actual specific banned user. --Jayron32 02:22, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
- The fundamental flaw in the policy you outline above is that it assumes something sinister akin to terrorism in sockpuppets. What does it matter if an editor chooses to contribute under a score of different names so long as a contribution adds to the value of Wikipedia. On the other hand if false information is included in an article, deliberately or inadvertently, it will inevitably be corrected. To assume bad faith and blindly throw out contributions without having examined their merit is just plain silly, and flies in the face of the constant reminder that the most important consideration when weighing an issue is whether it improves Wikipedia. Paul venter (talk) 17:28, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
- Giving admins discretionary powers to delete or not delete articles in this type of situation is vague and leads to the chaos that may be seen here, where it is obvious that deletions can become very arbitrary. This is not a good basis for consistent and sound policy. Paul venter (talk) 08:05, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
- So...admins should have compulsory deletion power? Or should we just have bots delete everything by identified ban/block evaders? postdlf (talk) 00:21, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
- Good point. Yes we realize that Paul Venter thinks that giving admins discretionary powers over deleting the contribution of sockpuppets is a Very Bad Thing. Nonetheless, the Wikipedia community has determined by an overwhelming consensus that requiring admins to either always delete them or always leave them in is a Far Worse Thing. You know Paul, you can avoid this issue entirely by not engaging in sockpuppetry. I'm just saying. --Guy Macon (talk) 01:27, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
- Was gonna stay out of this, but re "you can avoid this issue entirely by not engaging in sockpuppetry," I have to say: Or at least go for a clean start and avoid doing the stuff that resulted in a ban. Ian.thomson (talk) 01:32, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
- I'm still hoping to arrive at a better wording of G5 without grandstanding or unsubstantiated remarks such as "overwhelming consensus". This is not the time for cheap shots, but rather to gather input from a larger number of editors who are willing to look critically at the thinking behind this non-rule. Paul venter (talk) 07:18, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
- Giving admins a discretionary power to delete material contributed by sockpuppets appears to me to be a better option than any other solution so far offered in this thread. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:26, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
Well, so far I haven't seen any constructive proposal put forward. Perhaps because nobody sees it as a problem.....Paul venter (talk) 19:15, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
- I wouldn't mind making G5 much stronger in order to resolve the inconsistency, indicating that except in the unusual circumstance that the article has been substantially edited by multiple other editors, the content must be deleted. Sockpuppetry is such a deceitful activity that most steps to minimize its rewards are justified.—Kww(talk) 19:21, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
- What exactly is it that makes sockpuppetry so wicked? Paul venter (talk) 09:37, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
- The practice of deceit and the breach of the principle of good faith. - Sitush (talk) 09:41, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
- I don't think that adopting the moral high ground is supported by "As so often, Yogesh, I really don't give a crap what you think. - Sitush (talk) 07:37, 6 June 2013 (UTC)" Paul venter (talk) 12:49, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
- I've also called stuff "bollocks" and told someone to "fuck off" recently. I didn't claim above to have the moral high ground. - Sitush (talk) 12:56, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
- I don't think that adopting the moral high ground is supported by "As so often, Yogesh, I really don't give a crap what you think. - Sitush (talk) 07:37, 6 June 2013 (UTC)" Paul venter (talk) 12:49, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
- If the articles that result from the sockpuppetry are in themselves constructive and improve WP, then so what?Paul venter (talk) 10:00, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
- That is not the question that you asked, nor the one that I answered. You are proposing a Robin Hood defence but when push comes to shove this is all about discretion. I've seen articles created by socks that have been retained and I've seen ones that have been deleted. If it were me, I'd probably delete the lot on the basis that socks should not be encouraged and if the subject matter is notable then someone will recreate it in due course. - Sitush (talk) 10:27, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
- The point of G5 is that it gives teeth to banning, the only sanction the community has against users who show they are unwilling to abide by its rules. If a banned user can simply go on editing by creating more sockpuppets, and forcing endless arguments about which of their edits are "constructive", the ban is useless. This has been frequently debated, but there has never been consensus to change the policy stated in WP:BAN#Bans apply to all editing, good or bad. Enforcing G5 motivates the banned user to take the more constructive option: repent of their previous sins, request unblock, and agree to and comply with any conditions imposed. JohnCD (talk) 11:45, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
- I would personally routinely delete articles created by a banned or blocked user, unless there was an exceptionally good reason not to. Otherwise banning users has no value. A merely "constructive" edit will, if it benefits the project, will sooner or later be made legitimately by a genuine editor. As to the thousand or so edits listed above as being created by Paul venter sockpuppets, and their survival in the encyclopedia, this simply means that their origin was not spotted, or that they were felt at the time to be worth retaining. They still should not be here, although it may be seen as unduly narrow-minded to delete them now in view of the time they have existed. --Anthony Bradbury"talk" 14:30, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
- It seems unduly narrow-minded to me to delete them on grounds of their origin in any case, however old or new they are. If they are bad articles, then the fact of their being created by a sockpuppet merely provides an excuse to delete them without going through a process. If not, then anyone who deletes them is wilfully harming Wikipedia (and should perhaps be threatened with blocking themselves). If you think this means banning users has no value, then so be it (I disagree); but if it is to lead to well-meaning people deleting good material, then it comes to have a negative value, which is even worse. Victor Yus (talk) 18:25, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
- I would personally routinely delete articles created by a banned or blocked user, unless there was an exceptionally good reason not to. Otherwise banning users has no value. A merely "constructive" edit will, if it benefits the project, will sooner or later be made legitimately by a genuine editor. As to the thousand or so edits listed above as being created by Paul venter sockpuppets, and their survival in the encyclopedia, this simply means that their origin was not spotted, or that they were felt at the time to be worth retaining. They still should not be here, although it may be seen as unduly narrow-minded to delete them now in view of the time they have existed. --Anthony Bradbury"talk" 14:30, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
- The point of G5 is that it gives teeth to banning, the only sanction the community has against users who show they are unwilling to abide by its rules. If a banned user can simply go on editing by creating more sockpuppets, and forcing endless arguments about which of their edits are "constructive", the ban is useless. This has been frequently debated, but there has never been consensus to change the policy stated in WP:BAN#Bans apply to all editing, good or bad. Enforcing G5 motivates the banned user to take the more constructive option: repent of their previous sins, request unblock, and agree to and comply with any conditions imposed. JohnCD (talk) 11:45, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
- That is not the question that you asked, nor the one that I answered. You are proposing a Robin Hood defence but when push comes to shove this is all about discretion. I've seen articles created by socks that have been retained and I've seen ones that have been deleted. If it were me, I'd probably delete the lot on the basis that socks should not be encouraged and if the subject matter is notable then someone will recreate it in due course. - Sitush (talk) 10:27, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
- The practice of deceit and the breach of the principle of good faith. - Sitush (talk) 09:41, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
- What exactly is it that makes sockpuppetry so wicked? Paul venter (talk) 09:37, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
- My fundamental position has been the following:
- The purpose of WP is to create a free encyclopedia in a collaborative environment. The environment is not the end in itself, but the method we have chosen to create the content of the encyclopedia. The criteria for acceptable content do not change depending who who write is. Nobody has special authority to contribute, and the only reason for preventing someone to contribute is if their contributes are disruptive. If a normally disruptive editor creates good content, they are to that extent not being disruptive. There can be exceptions--a contributor most of whose content is disruptive may cause so many problems that the only practical solution is to refuse all the content--for example, a serial copyright violator who we can not persuade to stop--it is reasonable to presume that further contributions will be similarly copyvio. But if someone is prepared to demonstrate that a particular contribution from even that person is not copyvio, and otherwise acceptable, we will have a better encyclopedia if it is included rather than excluded.
- But some people are manned for other reasons: for example, they disrupt the overall editing process by making threats, or using sockpuppets to influence decisions. If they are however not currently doing things which pose such a risk, there is no reason for them to remain banned, except the fear that accepting the work will encourage them to resume their formal behavior. In extreme cases, I can understand that we might not be willing to take the chance, but I am not convinced that this applies to every blocked user. We have too few good content contributors that we can afford to turn them away on the hypothesis that someone else will write the article.
- But I could equally make the opposite argument.
- The purpose of WP is to create a free encyclopedia in a collaborative environment.There are many ways of creating an encyclopedia, even a free encyclopedia, and the current method here is not the only one. This is more exactly a project in open intellectual process, a project to see how far a collaborative environment operating under open content principles controlled entirely by the community in accordance with its own self-generated rules can produce really important useful work while still maintaining the environment. No group has ever done as broad a project in terms of scope and general public importance as we have done with our current methods. We are really a project in experimental social organization--organization not for its own sake, but to actually do something. The encyclopedia is a focus for our work, but the mere product should not take precedence over the entire social group.
- It is evident that not everyone can work successfully in this environment. We are a voluntary group, not an all-encompasing compulsory structure of society, and therefore do not have the problem of having to accommodate everybody, in the sense that a political entity has. There are many opportunities for those who want to do this sort of intellectual work to do it elsewhere. We are an opportunity for those who want to experiment with working in this particular manner. We therefore have an obligation to our voluntary participants to permit them to work in the way they have chosen; that people who want to pursue this experiment. as far as it will take us be free from disruption. We therefore must judge by whether a particular individual is of net benefit not just to the actual encyclopedia, but the entire process here.
- These two views must be reconciled. Most of us in practice have a combination of those two motives. We are after all talking not in most cases about global banning, but about the particular project of the English language Wikipedia, and we have always acknowledged that many people who cannot work successfully here, may be able to work successfully in other affiliated projects--tho this is not always the case, which is why we do have the possibility of global blocks. For myself, I am in fact interested in both aspects--I have always wanted to participate in a large scale encyclopedic project, and I am here to realize a childhood dream. But I am also here to realize the childhood dream of being able to do something useful free from outside controls. I never thought to be actually able to do either, and here I am doing both. I am also aware that if I were a little more eccentric, I would not be able to do this--that there are controls in the sense that only people with a willingness to follow informal but still substantial expectations can participate, because otherwise the disruption they cause would result in too many other good contributors leaving.
- Here's a series of hypotheticals. Suppose I know personally someone who has been indefinitely blocked here. Suppose that person tells me about an error, and suppose I can verify the error. Should I make the edit (knowing of course it will be me who is responsible if I misjudge the factual situation) Now, suppose they tell be that something where we are lacking an article would make a good topic, could I write it? Suppose they give me the material to do so, material I myself can verify? Suppose they actually write the article up in WP format, & I can verify both the references and the suitability, and they are explicit in giving me the work to present in my own name?
- Here's another series: Suppose a banned editor writes something up and submits it at AfC, and although it is determined it is from a banned editor. can I as a reviewer verify it, revise it, and accept it? Suppose they write it on their talk p., not being blocked from posting there. Can I similarly use it, if I am willing to take responsibility for the contents? Suppose just the same, except they contribute it under some other pseudonym in mainspace?If I delete it and then resubmit it exactly in my own name, is it copyvio? Would it be copyvio if I attributed it to the now-deleted name used? If I delete it, and use the deleted article which I have saved to write a parallel one, am I plagiarizing? Should I find some way to attribute it? What if I do not save it, but rewrite it exactly or approximately from memory? or use the general concept? DGG ( talk ) 19:45, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
- Using contributed text without attribution is a wmf:Terms of Use violation. See WP:Copying within Wikipedia#Reusing deleted material. Flatscan (talk) 04:45, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
- These are all plausible cases, but the crunch is that there are times, fortunately rare, when it is necessary for the good of the community as a whole to say to a problematic user that he must conform to our rules and standards or he cannot continue to edit here. If such a user believes that, for all the plausible reasons you give, we are not in practice prepared to enforce the current policy on edits by banned users, he can happily reply "Don't care! I feel no need to comply with your rules, and you can't make me, because I shall ignore any ban and continue editing as much as I like by setting up new accounts." It would be better for all concerned if such a user took the threat of a ban seriously. JohnCD (talk) 21:17, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
- @JohnCD: That is exactly why the WP:BAN policy is not taken seriously and should probably be partially, if not completely, abolished. By extension, I would say the same with the WP:BLOCK policy. Who are we to say who is allowed to edit here when we have no way whatsoever to physically prevent them from doing so? If we are going to let an already-banned user's edits in unconditionally, then we might as well let that editor back into the community unconditionally, as well. Unfortunately, much of the community (plus myself, which I find myself guilty of the same thing) like to hypocritically "pretend" that users are "banned" when in actuality they are not. --MuZemike 05:29, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
- For me it's an easy decision: content trumps the identity of the editor.
- For the G5 nominations I've run across, I estimate I decline about 1/3, delete about 1/3, and let someone else decide the remaining 1/3. Deleting perfectly good content simply because the author is blocked is a stupid idea, and a small number of my G5 declines have been for that reason (the rest didn't qualify for G5 anyway).
- It's been said before above, and I'll say it again: Just because an article qualifies for G5 doesn't mean it must be deleted. Our job as administrators is to prevent disruption, not punish the the entire project by depriving it of good content. I know my views on this don't agree with most other admins. ~Amatulić (talk) 00:09, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
- For me, it's an easy decision in the opposite direction: with 4,000,000 articles in the the encyclopedia, it's impossible for any one G5 to damage the encyclopedia by more than .000025%, more or less, and I think the value of discouraging block evasion is much higher than that kind of trivial loss.—Kww(talk) 05:40, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
- WP shooting itself in the foot can hardly be counted as a success story..... With such exalted intellects about there has to be a better solution while satisfying those with a puritanical sense of crime and punishment. Paul venter (talk) 15:45, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
- Quite. But Kww is one of the leaders in this shooting in the foot idea; perceived crimes must be punished at whatever cost. Eric Corbett 15:49, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
- In your haste to set up your straw man and get in your cheap shots, the two of you failed to address Kww's actual point, which is that there is value in discouraging block evasion. --Guy Macon (talk) 17:34, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
- Exactly. It's not about punishment, it's about sending a message that the community has decided that even if you are capable of making good contributions sometimes you are too much of a pain in the ass at other times and so all your contributions, good or bad, are no longer welcome. Forgive my bluntness, but it is only a petty and childish mind that would engage in socking to prove how good they can be. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:21, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
- In your haste to set up your straw man and get in your cheap shots, the two of you failed to address Kww's actual point, which is that there is value in discouraging block evasion. --Guy Macon (talk) 17:34, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
- It's not about shooting oneself in the foot, Paul. Socking is a form of lying and cheating to get one's way. The project is not well served by being associated with liars and cheats. It's a matter of short-term loss vs. long-term gain. What the project really needs to do is drop this cloak of privacy nonsense that makes socking so easy to accomplish and take a far more aggressive approach against those that do it.—Kww(talk) 18:53, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
- Forgive my bluntness - but utter balderdash. When WP's Mrs Grundys start showing an unhealthy interest in the moral virtues or faults of its contributors, then it is on a very slippery slope. Paul venter (talk) 21:53, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
- That you consider not lying and not cheating to be an excessive restraint speaks volumes.—Kww(talk) 22:45, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
- What I wrote was that the Mrs Grundys of WP are a liability - and yes, as long as the quality of an article is good, I couldn't care whether the contributor is gay, a paedophile, has nasty toilet habits or is a supporter of the Taliban - and neither should you. Paul venter (talk) 07:16, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
- I don't care about any of those things. I do care about whether someone is lying to me.—Kww(talk) 14:15, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
- I don't remember lying to you (if that's what you mean), but at the same you must remember that you are living morally untroubled in a nation that lied to the American Indian and cheated him out of his heritage. Do you feel morally ambivalent? Paul venter (talk) 18:50, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
- Give me a break. If you just want to argue for argument's sake, take it elsewhere. Binksternet (talk) 19:43, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
- Quite right. This was meant to be a constructive discussion, but instead has turned into a personal sniping opportunity. Paul venter (talk) 06:21, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
- Give me a break. If you just want to argue for argument's sake, take it elsewhere. Binksternet (talk) 19:43, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
- I don't remember lying to you (if that's what you mean), but at the same you must remember that you are living morally untroubled in a nation that lied to the American Indian and cheated him out of his heritage. Do you feel morally ambivalent? Paul venter (talk) 18:50, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
- I don't care about any of those things. I do care about whether someone is lying to me.—Kww(talk) 14:15, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
- What I wrote was that the Mrs Grundys of WP are a liability - and yes, as long as the quality of an article is good, I couldn't care whether the contributor is gay, a paedophile, has nasty toilet habits or is a supporter of the Taliban - and neither should you. Paul venter (talk) 07:16, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
- That you consider not lying and not cheating to be an excessive restraint speaks volumes.—Kww(talk) 22:45, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
- Forgive my bluntness - but utter balderdash. When WP's Mrs Grundys start showing an unhealthy interest in the moral virtues or faults of its contributors, then it is on a very slippery slope. Paul venter (talk) 21:53, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
- Quite. But Kww is one of the leaders in this shooting in the foot idea; perceived crimes must be punished at whatever cost. Eric Corbett 15:49, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
- WP shooting itself in the foot can hardly be counted as a success story..... With such exalted intellects about there has to be a better solution while satisfying those with a puritanical sense of crime and punishment. Paul venter (talk) 15:45, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
- For me, it's an easy decision in the opposite direction: with 4,000,000 articles in the the encyclopedia, it's impossible for any one G5 to damage the encyclopedia by more than .000025%, more or less, and I think the value of discouraging block evasion is much higher than that kind of trivial loss.—Kww(talk) 05:40, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
- These are all plausible cases, but the crunch is that there are times, fortunately rare, when it is necessary for the good of the community as a whole to say to a problematic user that he must conform to our rules and standards or he cannot continue to edit here. If such a user believes that, for all the plausible reasons you give, we are not in practice prepared to enforce the current policy on edits by banned users, he can happily reply "Don't care! I feel no need to comply with your rules, and you can't make me, because I shall ignore any ban and continue editing as much as I like by setting up new accounts." It would be better for all concerned if such a user took the threat of a ban seriously. JohnCD (talk) 21:17, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
- G5 must retain its teeth but it also should not be made into an automatic deletion. Discretion is an important element of content management. Binksternet (talk) 22:12, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
- G5 should remain in full effect. I realize that I am a WP:DELETIONIST, but if we decide to keep some articles that banned or blocked users create in violation of their ban or block, banned or blocked users will start violating their bans and blocks thinking that we'll let it go, and we can't let that happen. smileguy91talk 14:30, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
- Exactly so. If you reward someone for their behavior, you see more and more of the behavior you are rewarding until you finally have to crack down anyway. I also think that "not mandatory" is a good policy, because it is usually OK to ignore the problem when the edits are constructive and to instead concentrate on persistent sockpuppeteers. --Guy Macon (talk) 19:30, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
- I would add that this is not at all hypothetical. I'm not going to name names but this has actually happened on more than on occasion with more than one banned user. It did not end well for anyone involved and took up even more of the community's time, which is the exact opposite of the intended effect of a ban. Banning doesn't just happen out of the blue. It is actually not all that easy to enact a ban on a long-term user, which is as it should be. But once we do ban someone, that is it. They are not welcome under any identity regardless of what contributions they intend to make. They can appeal the ban instead childishly evading it and going "look at me, I can be a good boy." Just because that worked on your mother or your schoolteacher doesn't mean we have to put up with it. Beeblebrox (talk) 17:44, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
A Comment on the G5 Debate
This situation is bizarre. We have an editor who thinks that Ignore All Rules really means Ignore All Policies and Guidelines. We have an editor who thinks that the Manual of Style is for other people, and that the blocking policy is for other people, and that the rule against sockpuppetry is for other people, and this editor has the audacity to suggest that G5 is an unreasonable rule, especially if it gives administrators discretion. Maybe that is because he has made a "career" of pushing the limits of administrative discretion. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:19, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
- thanks for lowering the bar even further in this dialogue. Beeblebrox (talk) 17:39, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
Rampant arrogance in articles about mathematics
I was reading the page Limit when I was struck by a preposterous claim. "In formulas, limit is usually abbreviated as lim as in lim(an) = a". It sounds like lim is an abbreviation of limit when it in fact is a abbreviation of limes. You could believe that this case was an exception but after reading several other articles such as Natural logarithm (with ln = logaritmus naturalis), logarithm (with log = logaritmus), Sine (with sin = sinus) there seems to be a policy of denying history here. Why is this and why can't we stick to the truth here? ---Immunmotbluescreen (talk) 19:11, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
- I don't see what you are saying. Maybe you can propose what you infer is the correct way? Jason A. Jensen of USA (talk) 19:16, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
- This appears to be a content issue, not a policy issue. I suggest you bring it up on the talk pages of the relevant articles or at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Mathematics, being sure to provide sources that support your claims. Beeblebrox (talk) 22:09, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
- Limes is just the Latin term for the concept. We write in English, including using English terminology for mathematical concepts (assuming that our sources also do, which is the case here). WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:42, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
- While agreeing that it is a content issue, not a policy issue, so ought to be discussed at the locations suggested by Beeblebrox, OP has a point. I read sine and notice that the term "sine" is used eleven times in the main text before "sin" is used, and then it is just used, no indication that sin is the same thing referred to as "sine" the first eleven times. Thereafter, both terms are used. If there is rhyme or reason to the choice it isn't obvious. A reader unfamiliar with the term 9which, of course, is the intended audience should be forgiven for not being sure whether the terms are identical or not. Why is one term used some times, and the other some other times. "Sine" is used more often when it is standalone, and sin more often when followed by an argument, but that isn't universal. the reader should not have to do forensic analysis to figure it out, especially, if OP is correct that sin is not an abbreviation fo sine but something else. Surely the etymology of terms is a basic part of the encyclopedia, so we ought to do it, and do it right.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 20:49, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
- Posted in Project mathematics as suggested. Project Mathematics--Immunmotbluescreen (talk) 12:29, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
- @SPhilbrick: etymology is a basic part of a dictionary, not an encyclopedia. Our articles are about concepts, not usually about words. But the etymology may often be relevant to the history of a concept, and mentioned there. —David Eppstein (talk) 22:21, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
- While agreeing that it is a content issue, not a policy issue, so ought to be discussed at the locations suggested by Beeblebrox, OP has a point. I read sine and notice that the term "sine" is used eleven times in the main text before "sin" is used, and then it is just used, no indication that sin is the same thing referred to as "sine" the first eleven times. Thereafter, both terms are used. If there is rhyme or reason to the choice it isn't obvious. A reader unfamiliar with the term 9which, of course, is the intended audience should be forgiven for not being sure whether the terms are identical or not. Why is one term used some times, and the other some other times. "Sine" is used more often when it is standalone, and sin more often when followed by an argument, but that isn't universal. the reader should not have to do forensic analysis to figure it out, especially, if OP is correct that sin is not an abbreviation fo sine but something else. Surely the etymology of terms is a basic part of the encyclopedia, so we ought to do it, and do it right.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 20:49, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
Conflict between COI guideline and Jimbo's "bright line" essay
In early 2012, Wikipedia had one of its every-once-in-awhile public debates about paid editing (or paid advocacy, if you prefer). I was a participant at the time—I myself represent clients on Wikipedia, though unlike many (most?) who do this, I care very much about always staying on the right side of policies and guidelines. A few things came out of this discussion, including the creation of two new WikiProjects: WikiProject Cooperation, focused on providing an outlet for company reps and PR managers to ask for assistance, and WikiProject Integrity, focused on policing paid editing activity. (These days, both are semi-active at best.) Of greater impact, however, was User:Jimbo Wales' most detailed statement on his view of "paid advocacy". In May of that year, he created a subpage in his userspace—User:Jimbo_Wales/Paid_Advocacy_FAQ—to express his views on the subject. His position, which is often referred to as the "bright line" or "Jimbo's bright line", is as follows:
- I am opposed to allowing paid advocates to edit in article space at all, but am extremely supportive of them being given other helpful paths to assist us in our efforts to be comprehensive, accurate and authoritative.
- This is a very simple rule that constitutes best practice: do not edit Wikipedia articles directly if you are a paid advocate. Instead, contribute proposed edits to the talk page, and escalate to appropriate venues on Wikipedia if you are having trouble getting people's attention.
Myself, I once edited client pages as a last resort—first I would seek consensus, prefer that others make changes, but if no one was interested and it seemed uncontroversial, I would make the change. Technically, this is what the Conflict of interest guideline says:
- Do not edit Wikipedia to promote your own interests, or those of other individuals or of organizations, including employers. Do not write about these things unless you are certain that a neutral editor would agree that your edits improve Wikipedia.
Since Jimbo's pronouncement, I have avoided mainspace edits from this account entirely. However, this does not work as well as Jimbo had imagined. It conflicts with the existing guideline, so it does not have the widespread recognition it maybe should, and it places the burden of action on volunteer editors, while inhibiting small useful contributions from those with a financial COI. Late last year, an effort was made to answer this dilemma with a proposal called "COI+", which would have set a timeline for paid advocates to eventually make a change if there was no answer, but it failed to gain consensus. Company reps editing pages is a non-starter for many (and as one myself, I completely understand why).
Yet the problem remains, in part because there is no formal recognition of Jimbo's advice. This week I asked an editor to review a few suggestions for the article Winton Capital Management which essentially amount to copy-edits, though I've been waiting since May 24 for a reply. This editor found them uncontroversial, and said I should edit myself, and when I explained Jimbo's view, the editor argued to me that the guideline supersedes Jimbo's essay, which is in fact marked as unfinished. It's a classic catch-22. Perhaps the best thing to do is raise this question back at Jimbo's Talk page. And rather than letting paid advocates edit articles, perhaps the best thing is for Jimbo's view to become an official part of the COI guideline. I'm curious if anyone has thoughts on this here. Cheers, WWB Too (Talk · COI) 14:17, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
- Its a damned if you do, damned if you don't issue. I much rather see a paid editing tag of some sort in a editors username and a disclosure and center for such activity, but many are directly opposed to this because paid editing often means promotion and removing negative material. This has occurred hundreds of times with government, commercial and industrial interests doing this. Few volunteers want to sift through trivial correction or even deal with someone else's proposed changes; meaning long waits, low visibility and the conflicted issue for even the most benign editors; paid or unpaid, who simply have a COI. The Wikipedia community is undecided and like governments; reverts to avoiding the issue to prevent establishing even tacit acceptance or outright restriction; this does need to be addressed; but with the current state of the issues and the blow up about Gibraltar it would only be another turn of the wheel. Jimbo has been overruled before; but the spirit of the argument is the important thing; for this case a copyedit like that is probably okay because no rational person would object to cleaning up bad prose. Despite our history at WP:LAME, most people don't worry over trivial matters like this. Still... I hope others can explain the issue and where paid editing stands better than I. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 15:53, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
- Look at the reality here... We can make all the "rules" we want on this... we can even create a firm WP:NOPAIDEDITING policy to forbid the practice, but as long as a paid editor follows our other policies and guidelines, there is little chance of detecting violators or enforcing the rule... There is simply no way to stop paid editors from editing. It's one of the down sides to "anyone can edit". Blueboar (talk) 16:48, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
- @ ChrisGualtieri—there's a lot I agree with in your comment, though it sounds like you wouldn't support what I'm asking, i.e. seeking to have Jimbo's "bright line" incorporated into WP:COI. I suggest it because the other way has already failed, and I could live with either scenario; it's the uncertainty now that I'd like to resolve. @ Blueboar—you're completely right that creating a policy doesn't mean it will be followed by the unscrupulous or uninitiated, although clarity would be preferable if it can be achieved. If there was such a rule, at least then I could point to it when asking if volunteer editors can review my suggestions. WWB Too (Talk · COI) 17:04, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
- What good would that do? They'd say, "Why are you expecting me to deal with that? I'm a WP:VOLUNTEER and busy with stuff that interests me. Getting your stuff reviewed is someone else's problem." This would just turn into one more backlog that people would complain about. WhatamIdoing (talk) 11:22, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
- @ ChrisGualtieri—there's a lot I agree with in your comment, though it sounds like you wouldn't support what I'm asking, i.e. seeking to have Jimbo's "bright line" incorporated into WP:COI. I suggest it because the other way has already failed, and I could live with either scenario; it's the uncertainty now that I'd like to resolve. @ Blueboar—you're completely right that creating a policy doesn't mean it will be followed by the unscrupulous or uninitiated, although clarity would be preferable if it can be achieved. If there was such a rule, at least then I could point to it when asking if volunteer editors can review my suggestions. WWB Too (Talk · COI) 17:04, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
- Look at the reality here... We can make all the "rules" we want on this... we can even create a firm WP:NOPAIDEDITING policy to forbid the practice, but as long as a paid editor follows our other policies and guidelines, there is little chance of detecting violators or enforcing the rule... There is simply no way to stop paid editors from editing. It's one of the down sides to "anyone can edit". Blueboar (talk) 16:48, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
Informal request for comment at WP:COIN
I'm hoping that some of the fine folks here can participate in the discussion at Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard#Fairleigh_Dickinson_University before it gets automatically archived later today. In particular one editor (not me) has called for administrator intervention. --Nstrauss (talk) 17:46, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
Review of Commons' Scope is now OPEN
I am pleased to announce the launch of a comprehensive review of our existing policy & guidelines on Commons:Project scope, and Commons:Photographs of identifiable people. This is an important review and will cover a number of contentious issues that have recently been extensively discussed both on and off Wiki. As background, you might like to look at these recent English Wikipedia Signpost articles:
- The tragedy of Wikipedia's commons, a Signpost Op-ed by Gigs
- A response to The Tragedy of Wikipedia’s commons, two Signpost Op-eds by me and Mattbuck in response.
Please visit the main review page to take part. --MichaelMaggs (talk) 22:29, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
- Huh, I was expecting it to be another week before mine got published. I was going to do a bit of a rewrite. Oh well, publication, yay! -mattbuck (Talk) 22:45, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
- Make sure to mention that this has nothing to do with those discussions on Jimbo's page about Commons being broken. Because those had no effect at all. The nice people on Commons will be only too happy to listen to your ideas and respond politely, without calling you names or accusing you of being some kind of prude because you think Commons should not be hosting naked pictures of people without their explicit consent. Be sure to see the Request for Comment started in March about some of these same topics. (Rd232, the Commons admin who started that RfC, retired soon after his proposed guideline for Commons user pages was rejected.) Delicious carbuncle (talk) 23:19, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
- That RFC uses the most convoluted, overly complicated discussion formatting I have ever seen. "No consensus" is practically guaranteed before you even begin... Beeblebrox (talk) 23:07, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
- So, whose bright idea was it to let the mice decide how to divide up the cheese? Oh yea, the mice. Tarc (talk) 23:13, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
- I'm trying to imagine the thought process of whoever decided to divide the RFC into twenty-seven seperate discussions... Although I have myself been criticized for the unusual structures of some RFCs I have started, how anyone could ever have thought that would work is beyond me. (Blatant plug: see here for my essay on how to do these things. ) Beeblebrox (talk) 23:36, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
Is Wikipedia subject to gags by British courts?
I have come across two cases in recent days where Wikipedia articles have been censored/deleted due to gagging orders issued by UK law courts.
The case I am mostly familiar with is the Bishop Bell School#Child sexual abuse case. In September 2012, a major manhunt was launched looking for a teacher and his 15 year-old pupil who had eloped to France. The girl's name was widely reported by the British media: [1][2][3][4][5][6]. After the teacher was charged with having sex with a minor, UK based publications were gagged by British courts from carrying her name. As a result of this judgment an editor removed references to her name from the article: [7]. The trial has concluded with the teacher's conviction. Media outlets around the world (bar the UK ones) are carrying the pupil's name: [8]. This case has been discussed at Talk:Bishop Bell School#Court order and Talk:Bishop Bell School#RfC: Should the pupil's name be included in the Wikipedia article?.
Another incident that has come to my attention is the Peter Tobin article where a British police officer compelled a Wikipedia administrator to delete an article, if I am interpreting the discussion correctly: Talk:Peter Tobin#Deletion of full article?.
Now, their may be good policy/guideline based reasons for removing this material i.e. if it is libellous for example, but can I have a review of the legal situation please in regards to British court orders? In a nutshell, is Wikipedia subject to them? It strikes me we wouldn't censor Wikipedia to comply with a Chinese or Iranian court so why do British courts get to decide what we can and cannot add to Wikipedia?
There is an RFC to address inclusion of the material in regards to the Bishop Bell school case, but I would like to determine just how relevant British court orders are to the discussion. Betty Logan (talk) 07:58, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
- IMHO these matters should be referred to the WMF's legal experts. Individual editors and admins should not get involved. The only courts that do have real jurisdiction over Wikipedia are the courts that have jurisdiction in the state of Florida in the US. The only relevant consideration in the abovementioned matters are the BLP rules and particularly the privacy and protection of minors parts of BLP. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 08:27, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
- The WMF may or may not be subject to British court orders (as Roger says that is a question for its lawyers) but anyone editing from the UK most certainly is. Phil Bridger (talk) 09:13, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
- If Wikipedia is viewable in Britain then the prosecuting authorities may decide to take action against anyone they consider has broken the law. That applies in any country. And if any person in that situation is in Britain or is extradited there then they may be arrested, etc. WMF need to take a balanced view on all such potential issues. It is no good believing that only the US courts have jurisdiction and ignoring everywhere else. Thincat (talk) 09:38, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
- We can't permit Wikipedia to be under the jurisdiction of every court in the world. I encourage the WMF to hold the line: Florida and the US federal govt, and that's it, period, end of discussion. We do need to keep editors apprised of any personal risks they might be taking, that is true. --Trovatore (talk) 09:42, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
- I don't expect we need to apprise the members of the WMF Board of Trustees because I'm sure they will be taking their own legal advice. I should be clear: I am expressing no view about what should or should not be excluded from Wikipedia on legal grounds. I am simply saying that it is prudent to be looking beyond the boundaries of the US. Thincat (talk) 10:21, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
- It also needs to be pointed out that publishing this kind of information can, in serious cases, be enough to derail a case, as public opinion can be influenced by media (incl wikipedia) and prevent a fair trial, which can be grounds for appeal or even allow someone to go free. Its not just a legal matter, but a moral one. Im not putting forward a position at this stage, just playing devil's advocate. -- Nbound (talk) 10:25, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
- I know this is going to sound more negative that is really intended but...that's not really our problem IMO. Especially if the vast majority of the worlds media is already reporting it. Kumioko (talk) 10:31, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
- In this single case, yes. In every case? No... -- Nbound (talk) 10:32, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
- Yes your right, in this case. I should have clarified that. I think the WMF legal can offer better insight but I don't think we have anything to worry about with this case. Since our servers are in the US I think there is more to worry about from them but there have been numerous examples where we told them no too. Kumioko (talk) 10:44, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
- In this single case, yes. In every case? No... -- Nbound (talk) 10:32, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
- I know this is going to sound more negative that is really intended but...that's not really our problem IMO. Especially if the vast majority of the worlds media is already reporting it. Kumioko (talk) 10:31, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
- It also needs to be pointed out that publishing this kind of information can, in serious cases, be enough to derail a case, as public opinion can be influenced by media (incl wikipedia) and prevent a fair trial, which can be grounds for appeal or even allow someone to go free. Its not just a legal matter, but a moral one. Im not putting forward a position at this stage, just playing devil's advocate. -- Nbound (talk) 10:25, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
- I don't expect we need to apprise the members of the WMF Board of Trustees because I'm sure they will be taking their own legal advice. I should be clear: I am expressing no view about what should or should not be excluded from Wikipedia on legal grounds. I am simply saying that it is prudent to be looking beyond the boundaries of the US. Thincat (talk) 10:21, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
- We can't permit Wikipedia to be under the jurisdiction of every court in the world. I encourage the WMF to hold the line: Florida and the US federal govt, and that's it, period, end of discussion. We do need to keep editors apprised of any personal risks they might be taking, that is true. --Trovatore (talk) 09:42, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
If the British press does not carry the name of the victim, then there will be no local sources available for the article. Also, we can avoid mentioning the name of the victim who is relatively unknown in the spirit of avoiding victimization. There is a presumption in favour of privacy. — Nearly Headless Nick {c} 10:42, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
- Sometimes British courts try to close the stable door after the horse has bolted, so to speak, which is true of this case where there was plenty of "local" coverage prior to the court order, so sources are easily available. National British stories end up in the Irish press anyway which are not subject to restrictions, so sources are nearly always available. I think there can be good policy based reasons for omitting content, but that's for normal consensus based editing to decide, and this is just part of a wider issue. British gagging orders are becoming all too frequent, sometimes with celebrities obtaining them to prevent the British press from publishing details of extra-marital affairs such as the 2011 British privacy injunctions controversy. It's time to clear up the confusion IMO, since it's not good if British courts are censoring Wikipedia. Betty Logan (talk) 10:59, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
- After being rather stern above, I'll now say the English courts can be excessive to the point of becoming ridiculous. Peter Tobin, who you mentioned above, was in the the UK headlines, then became prominently anonymous (but it was obvious who it was without looking on the internet) and then reappeared again. Thincat (talk) 11:22, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
One must clarify the question. If you mean "can a country attack one of their own citizens for what they did or didn't do on Wikipedia" (if they managed to find out who they are) I'd say that there is nothing stopping them except for the systems within their own country. North8000 (talk) 11:30, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
- I think that goes without saying: if an Iranian editor posts something critical of its government on Wikipedia and the Iranian authorities get wind of it, I don't think the Foundation pointing out that the servers are not based in Iran will hold much sway. However, I think a more interesting question would be whether a British court could effectively compel Wikipedia to turn over the identities—or at least the IP addresses—of British editors which may have contravened a court order? I would be interested in knowing what legal powers—if any—a British court could exercise over Wikipedia. Betty Logan (talk) 12:44, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
- I believe, and IANAL, that British courts hold absolutely no power over Wikipedia, since Wikimedia itself has no presence within its jurisdiction. If British prosecutors wanted to get whatever information Wikimedia has on editors who have touched such articles, I believe they would have to petition American courts under American law. Resolute 18:03, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
This whole discussion is a red herring, because we can take the decision to redact the name on the basis of the common human decency mandated by our WP:BLP policy without worrying about any legal niceties. Phil Bridger (talk) 17:08, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
- There is no rule saying that we cannot discuss the general principle, This is the policy village pump, not the individual cases village pump.
- As for "We can't permit Wikipedia to be under the jurisdiction of every court in the world." neither I or Wikipedia are subject to Chinese law, but if I edit the Falon Gong page and later visit China, I could be arrested. Likewise, if a British court orders Wikipedia to turn over the identity of a user and Wikipedia refuses, in theory Sue Gardner could be arrested upon visiting the UK or even visiting Germany with a stopover at Heathrow. There is nothing the WMF could do about this other than make a public protest. --Guy Macon (talk) 17:58, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
- I agree with User:Guy Macon. It is awfully xenophobic of us to say "only Florida and US laws and that's it period". Imagine if GE, Honeywell, Microsoft, Google, and other US companies that have wanted to merge have told the EU that two multi-national companies based in the US are NOT subject to their regulations on anti-trust laws and they didn't need EU permission to merge. Of course Wikimedia lawyers would know what to do best, but on our end shouldn't we consider ourselves a multinational corporation under the jurisdiction of every place we "do business" or have a "presence" which would basically be wherever our editors are editing from. Which by jurisdiction I mean they can try to prosecute whatever they want but actually they are limited by who they can get their hands on. (Eg- If you shoot someone who is in Mexico and you are standing on the US side of the border, and you have never been to Mexico, therefore not a fugitive from justice, can you be extradited? Can a US state court try you for a murder that did not technically occur in that state, let alone the US?)Camelbinky (talk) 18:36, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
- There is nothing xenophobic about stating the fact that having no presence in a jurisdiction means you are not subject to that jurisdiction's laws. And no, we are not a multinational corporation, nor should we pretend to be. Resolute 19:23, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
- I agree with User:Guy Macon. It is awfully xenophobic of us to say "only Florida and US laws and that's it period". Imagine if GE, Honeywell, Microsoft, Google, and other US companies that have wanted to merge have told the EU that two multi-national companies based in the US are NOT subject to their regulations on anti-trust laws and they didn't need EU permission to merge. Of course Wikimedia lawyers would know what to do best, but on our end shouldn't we consider ourselves a multinational corporation under the jurisdiction of every place we "do business" or have a "presence" which would basically be wherever our editors are editing from. Which by jurisdiction I mean they can try to prosecute whatever they want but actually they are limited by who they can get their hands on. (Eg- If you shoot someone who is in Mexico and you are standing on the US side of the border, and you have never been to Mexico, therefore not a fugitive from justice, can you be extradited? Can a US state court try you for a murder that did not technically occur in that state, let alone the US?)Camelbinky (talk) 18:36, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
- Guy is right that there are (at least in theory) risks for editors. We need to make editors aware of them. But I stand by my statement. We need to take the hardest possible line against the tendency of governments to meddle outside their borders. So, once again: Florida and the US govt, period. --Trovatore (talk) 19:30, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
My recollection is that m:Wikimedia servers is out of date and this says there are three locations for the servers, so I am not sure that will affect what laws WMF uses now. I do know that British law has pretty near zero affect on anything that I do. In the case where France wanted its radio transmitter article deleted, not only was it not deleted, but it became a top viewed article, so the backlash was enormous. I would personally recommend making decisions based on their encyclopedic value, rather than on the whims of any government. Apteva (talk) 19:05, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
- To really make it complicated, the WMF happens to be a Utah corporation (because Utah laws are very forgiving for non-profit groups... like Delaware does with for-profit corporation and seemingly everybody of any size is registered in that state as a corporation). In addition, the WMF headquarters happens to be in California, so I'd suspect that all three states (Florida, Utah, and California) might be an issue from time to time. Most of the servers are still in Florida from my recollection. The main issues would be if Wikipedia was seen to promote illegal activity of some sort (like child porn or drug sales seem to be good examples... some of the issues on Commons could be mentioned here).
- There are "local" groups like Wikimedia UK that certainly could be subject to UK law though, especially its officers and fundraising efforts. I know that Wikimedia Italia has been the subject of several lawsuits and has caused all sort of grief (in part because of Italian law that encourages such lawsuits). While it would be nice to think that Wikipedia servers are isolated from the rest of the world, some care does need to happen with some "common sense" as applied to dealing with laws in countries other than the USA. Suggesting that a UK court has direct jurisdiction over content on Wikipedia is certainly a bit of a stretch, but life could certainly get uncomfortable for many volunteers and fundraising could certainly end in a country if Wikipedians are doing things which offends that local government.
- I seriously doubt much fundraising happens in Iran or Taliban-occupied Pakistan in terms of WMF activities, so trying to appease those governments is less likely to be a concern. On the other hand, Wikimedia UK does quite a bit of fundraising, and there certainly are plenty of UK residents who participate in editing and administering en.wikipedia. --Robert Horning (talk) 23:35, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
- I'm a UK resident, and I fully accept that the UK government has jurisdiction over anything I post on Wikipedia. Heck, I don't even hide behind a pseudonym, so I wouldn't exactly be hard to find. Eric Corbett 00:10, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
I think we should be focusing on offering guidance/warnings to British editors, to help them understand personal legal implications. Consider the reports of the tweeters/facebookers who were convicted recently for naming a rape victim, under section 1 of the Sexual Offences (Amendment) Act 1992. 10 people were criminally convicted in a Magistrates' Court; they were ordered to pay £624 compensation each to the victim, and one was fined £405 + £615 costs as well.[9][10] In a way these cases were more serious than a WP editor might be in, as some of the comments were malicious and the victim had never been named before in the media, but OTOH a WP article might be seen by a lot more people. There is some useful discussion of this on this good legal blog. So a UK WP editor editing about some Sexual Offences cases does seem to have a realistic possibility of getting into a bad mess. I wonder if we should create a Template notice warning UK editors that section 1 of the Sexual Offences (Amendment) Act 1992 might realistically apply to an article's content, similar to Template:Sub judice UK. Rwendland (talk) 01:49, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
- Why stop at UK editors? Other countries have suppression orders too -- Nbound (talk) 01:54, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
- I think this is a good idea, and sure, for other countries too. Editors should be apprised of any risks they personally face, to the extent we can reasonably determine them. (This last point is problematic, of course; it's not clear to what extent we can determine that, and certainly we don't want the absence of such a notice ever to be taken as a guarantee of safety. Probably any such notice should prominently note that its absence should not be construed as an all-clear.) --Trovatore (talk) 02:04, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
- I'm not quite sure what the point is here. If I were to accuse UK Prime Minister David Cameron of paying for sex with an underage prostitute, as Silvio Berlusconi has been convicted of today, I might reasonably expect to have to defend myself in court. Eric Corbett 02:30, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
- That's not under discussion. This section is about gag orders, not libel. --Trovatore (talk) 02:40, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
- I'm not quite sure what the point is here. If I were to accuse UK Prime Minister David Cameron of paying for sex with an underage prostitute, as Silvio Berlusconi has been convicted of today, I might reasonably expect to have to defend myself in court. Eric Corbett 02:30, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
- I think this is a good idea, and sure, for other countries too. Editors should be apprised of any risks they personally face, to the extent we can reasonably determine them. (This last point is problematic, of course; it's not clear to what extent we can determine that, and certainly we don't want the absence of such a notice ever to be taken as a guarantee of safety. Probably any such notice should prominently note that its absence should not be construed as an all-clear.) --Trovatore (talk) 02:04, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
- Why stop at UK editors? Other countries have suppression orders too -- Nbound (talk) 01:54, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
Considering the WMF's position under this law (section 1 of the Sexual Offences (Amendment) Act 1992), and assuming the unlikely possibility that WMF had any manifestation in the UK that was capable of being prosecuted, there seem to be some tricky to decide legal questions:
- The law applies to things "published in England and Wales in a written publication available to the public" - so would an English court consider WP published in England? It seems to regard twitter/facebook as published in England (see prosecution reports above), so this seems likely.
- In the case of a newspaper or periodical, a journalist/writer would be in the clear, as section 5 of the Act says only "any proprietor, any editor and any publisher" can be prosecuted. But for a website "the person publishing the matter" can be prosecuted, and considering the twitter/facebook prosecution example again it seem possible the UK based writer is covered by this.
- But if the courts did consider WMF Inc to be the publisher instead, then the executives "of the body corporate" could also be prosecuted if the disclosure was "with the consent or connivance of, or to be attributable to any neglect on the part of" the executive. I have no idea if this could be used against any WMF executives travelling in the UK, without also prosecuting WMF Inc itself.
Not sure if this helps clarify very much, but this seems to be what an amateur reading of this law suggests. (There could be court orders that apply as well.) Lucky WMF does not have a UK office! Rwendland (talk) 02:38, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
- The WMF is fairly flame-proof I think, but not us editors. Eric Corbett 02:45, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
- So in such cases it is probably better that the article be edited by persons from outside the country. If there are editors who never even plan to go to that country, all the better. --Trovatore (talk) 02:47, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
- The WMF is fairly flame-proof I think, but not us editors. Eric Corbett 02:45, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
Extend WP:disruptive editing to include an unbearable incompetence
Some thoughts induced by user talk: Arthur Rubin #Pirokiazuma and messages at user talk: Pirokiazuma. The current formulation of “disruptive editing” focuses on the chronic case: over a long time or many articles. But IMHO a short-time disruption is also a disruption, and the question is merely to estimate whether the user is able to contribute productively in the near future, or s/he will continue disruptions further if not blocked or deterred in other way. An acute case should be included to the policy or, better, several stereotypical, easily recognizable cases. I propose to discuss the case of unbearable incompetence.
This concrete WP:Randy was blocked as a vandal first, which was not the case. I’m sure that many Randies were blocked in the past for false accusations. As these editors do not have a merit, as they are detestable for most contributors, consequently nobody tried to defend them from unjust punishments. But it is a hypocrisy. If one is blocked with the “vandal” substantiation, then s/he has to be a vandal, not a person so harmful as vandals are in opinion of the administrator. So, it would be honest to classify acute Randies with their dedicated subcategory of disruptive editors: unbearably incompetent editors.
We must establish some formal conditions to check against an abuse. I propose the following set. First, the user in question has to edit more than one mainspace page during the last 72 hours (otherwise a page protection can be an option) and to make no less than 4 edits during the last 24 hours which were reverted by other editors (distinct from potentially blocking admin, though) and not defended by any other editor in a good standing (I mean, an account which does not look like a sock or a meatpuppet of the same editor in question).
Second, the user has to violate at least one behavioural policy: to conduct an WP:Edit war, or to make a personal attack, or to commit a serious breach of WP:talk page guidelines such as a censorship attempt or refactoring other’s postings. Removal of {{AfD}} templates also can be counted in this paragraph. I think, a list of typical offences can be compiled.
Third, the user must be warned before the last offence. Warned both for a general disruptivity and a concrete type of offence s/he makes. “Offence” means either something from the second (previous) paragraph, or just reinstating an already rejected edit, no matter to the same article or to a new one.
If all three conditions are met, then an admin should be able to block the user. A seasoned contributor shall be blocked for a medium to long term (a week or over), new users shall be blocked indefinitely. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 14:44, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
- Is there any evidence that this is an ongoing problem? Creating a whole new set of complex rules to deal with a single case looks to me like overkill. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:08, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
- We already have WP:CIR and WP:CLUE, but Hanlon's razor applies. If the editor refuses to get a clue, then they are typically dealt with as circumstances allow; it is much more irritating to have someone make strawmans and drag out matters to drive away other editors; that is WP:DE and it generally is not a single page event. The whole RANDY issue is difficult because people are likely to enable and AGF because they do not realize sword-wielding skeletons; primarily in the case of esoteric subjects with few editors, exist. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 15:17, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
- Neither CIR nor CLUE are official. WP:AGF has nothing to do with my proposal: making an evil thing after warnings is, theoretically, a blockable offence. “Enablers” is something which I read about, but rarely saw in practice. I knew only one enabler (of mainspace Randies) in ru.wikipedia, and some borderline cases here though related to the “struggle for etiquette”, not to content issues. Esoteric subjects – yes, they exist, but a Randy rarely restricts himself to an esoteric subject only. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 16:09, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
- It is not a single case: I investigated several and likely saw many more in histories. It is not a “new set”: it is intended to enforce existing policies, guidelines, and recognized best practices such as WP:BRD. The problem is not new, of course: I do not pretend that there is some surge in Randies in 2013. But they can destroy Wikipedia some day, after experts became too tired to defend articles. BTW, IPs should not be excluded too: they are sometimes disruptive and difficult to catch a block due to the double standard. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 15:19, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
- Seems counter to AGF; so what you are proposing will not stand. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 15:43, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
- This was a one-off low-level problem that was easy to deal with. The disruption was very specific and geared to limitations/errors of the particular editor. I cannot see any point in trying to suggest this might be a more general phenomenon. By wikipedia standards, it was dealt with fairly quickly. Wikipedia was not under threat and these particular circumstances required no special expertise. Mathsci (talk) 16:04, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
It was dealt relatively quickly due to Pirokiazuma’s suicidal attitude… but a Randy with a lower dick pressure possibly would continue his disruptions for several days more, if not weeks. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 16:36, 24 June 2013 (UTC)- Today it appeared that the problem is far from being solved. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 16:12, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
- This was a one-off low-level problem that was easy to deal with. The disruption was very specific and geared to limitations/errors of the particular editor. I cannot see any point in trying to suggest this might be a more general phenomenon. By wikipedia standards, it was dealt with fairly quickly. Wikipedia was not under threat and these particular circumstances required no special expertise. Mathsci (talk) 16:04, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
- Seems counter to AGF; so what you are proposing will not stand. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 15:43, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
- We already have WP:CIR and WP:CLUE, but Hanlon's razor applies. If the editor refuses to get a clue, then they are typically dealt with as circumstances allow; it is much more irritating to have someone make strawmans and drag out matters to drive away other editors; that is WP:DE and it generally is not a single page event. The whole RANDY issue is difficult because people are likely to enable and AGF because they do not realize sword-wielding skeletons; primarily in the case of esoteric subjects with few editors, exist. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 15:17, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
- I'm trying to figure out what you are attempting to solve. WP:COMPETENCE may be an essay, but I'm far from the only admin that will block based on its reasoning. If you wanted to turn it into a formal guideline, you'd probably find widespread support.—Kww(talk) 22:52, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
- I want to have a practically applicable (although restrictive) policy which could eject a Randy in 2–3 days. Not general reasonings about types and origins of incompetence, but definite steps from first signs of content disruption to the block. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 16:12, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
- You probably won't ever get consensus for that. The bright-line rules (like 3RR) are difficult to get people to endorse, and probably lead to more discussion rather than less. Any automatic set of thresholds that led to indefinite blocking aren't going to fly.—Kww(talk) 16:53, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
- If one cannot change anything in blocking policies, then we should anticipate that Wikipedia will continue with slow, but steady increase of hypocrisy in its social structure. Now I’m not sure neither that Wikipedia deserves so much of my time, nor that I took a right decision when chose English Wikipedia. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 17:29, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
- "If one cannot change anything in blocking policies, then we should anticipate that Wikipedia will continue with slow, but steady increase of hypocrisy in its social structure"? Why? How will not changing one thing lead to an increase in another? AndyTheGrump (talk)
- Read my second paragraph from above, please. When somebody is disruptive and clearly useless, s/he has a high chance to get a block under a false pretext. A rare sysop can type something like “this editor damages such-and-so” in the block reason field. Usually, some convenient, but false substantiation like vandalism and spamming is cited. This is a hypocrisy. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 17:47, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
- Even if you are correct, and incompetence is being mislabelled as vandalism, that doesn't explain why not changing anything is going to make it happen more often. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:50, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
- Read my second paragraph from above, please. When somebody is disruptive and clearly useless, s/he has a high chance to get a block under a false pretext. A rare sysop can type something like “this editor damages such-and-so” in the block reason field. Usually, some convenient, but false substantiation like vandalism and spamming is cited. This is a hypocrisy. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 17:47, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
- "If one cannot change anything in blocking policies, then we should anticipate that Wikipedia will continue with slow, but steady increase of hypocrisy in its social structure"? Why? How will not changing one thing lead to an increase in another? AndyTheGrump (talk)
- If one cannot change anything in blocking policies, then we should anticipate that Wikipedia will continue with slow, but steady increase of hypocrisy in its social structure. Now I’m not sure neither that Wikipedia deserves so much of my time, nor that I took a right decision when chose English Wikipedia. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 17:29, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
- You probably won't ever get consensus for that. The bright-line rules (like 3RR) are difficult to get people to endorse, and probably lead to more discussion rather than less. Any automatic set of thresholds that led to indefinite blocking aren't going to fly.—Kww(talk) 16:53, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
- I want to have a practically applicable (although restrictive) policy which could eject a Randy in 2–3 days. Not general reasonings about types and origins of incompetence, but definite steps from first signs of content disruption to the block. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 16:12, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
- Perhaps we should add WP:CIR to the examples of essays that admins block over at WP:The difference between policies, guidelines, and essays.
- Also, depending on the circumstances, a few days can be "a long period of time" under WP:DE. We don't specify a minimum time period. WhatamIdoing (talk) 07:03, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
Blocking IPs
When Wikipedia blocks an IP or IP range, right, don't they exercise some care and circumspection in order to limit collateral blockage? Like, they try not to block any obviously public IPs, and limit their blocks of homes and private businesses to a short time (e.g., 30-90 days).
Does anyone know of other websites that do not engage in the same level of care in blocking IPs in attempts to keep "banned users" from registering? Is it true that some websites don't care -- they will even block the entire NY Public Library system and City Hall just to keep one guy off the site. And keep these IP's blocked forever. I know of this one site that has done that, and has practically blocked the wireless IP's of every coffee and bagel joint in Manhattan's financial district. What gives?
Why do they no care? Pams Ale House (talk) 14:46, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
- Please read Wikipedia:Blocking IP addresses, which should answer any questions you have about blocking IPs or IP ranges on Wikipedia. postdlf (talk) 16:14, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
Non-English content on user pages
I tried searching for something about this topic, but the search always timed out on me. So, please forgive me if this topic has been covered before.
Does the user page policy have anything to say about user pages with substantial non-English content? Occasionally I will encounter someone's user page where the content is entirely in a language other than English. I'll run in through Google Translate first to make sure it's not a candidate for {{db-spamuser}}. If it passes that test and is acceptable user page content, is it OK to stay even if it's not English? --Drm310 (talk) 15:49, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
- We don't require userpages to be in english. But if the foreign language content they have would otherwise violate any other uses of userpage policy, it should be deleted; if it seems legit, it should be kept (I can see this being the case of a person who may have ESL and is trying to help translate foreign sources for us, as one highly legit use.) --MASEM (t) 15:56, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
- Good to know - thanks. --Drm310 (talk) 16:06, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
- There is content somewhere, or at least ambiguously worded content intended to relate to article talk pages that has been used to warn non-English native language editors from talking their own language on their own talk page. The ambiguity needs to be found and cleaned up. In ictu oculi (talk) 14:20, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
- Good to know - thanks. --Drm310 (talk) 16:06, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
Links guideline
Wikipedia:External links had an edit done on 7 Oct 2010. The change was to avoid inclusion of online petitions in articles. Since then We the People (petitioning system) was launched and is mentioned in many articles. The discussion at Wikipedia_talk:External_links/Archive_30 (7.) was brief and with little participation. There is a current discussion at Talk:Bradley Manning to have any mention of petitions kept out of the article. Is it time we reviewed this guideline change an re-worded it? The online government petitions do receive wide media coverage and many editors believe we should reflect that in articles.--Canoe1967 (talk) 16:51, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
- Seems you have mixed up a couple different issues. Whether to discuss a petition in an article is a matter of verifiability and due weight, and thus subject to case by case, article by article, consensus. External Linking to the petition itself is not necessary, and is a matter of promoting a petition, which the pedia generally has no wish to do. Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:20, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
- I don't have mixed them up but other editors are. Some don't want to include wide media coverage of petitions at Talk:Bradley Manning and citing this as the guideline to not even mention them in text. I can understand not linking to them but that may need clarification in the guideline. "Online petitions may be mentioned but direct links should be avoided" type thing. Pop over to the Manning talk page and see what I mean. I brought up the fact the policy may need an edit and was told to discuss policy elsewhere. I walked away but I think they are still locked in their discussion of it.--Canoe1967 (talk) 01:22, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
- I'm not sure there was any real confusion at Talk:Bradley Manning. Nobody suggested that the guideline forbids mentioning petitions. It was pointed out that the external links guideline prohibits links to petitions, and nobody seems to have queried it except Canoe1967. The discussion has been over the (lack of) media coverage of the petition - an issue of WP:WEIGHT. As for any proposal to change the guideline, I personally would object on principle to any change that singled out a particular form of petition specific to the U.S. as some sort of exception to the existing 'no links' guideline, and frankly can't see the need to revise the policy at all. It seems clear enough to me. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:56, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
- It does read clearly but it was not written correctly. A wider consensus should have been done back in Oct 2010 instead of just a few editors on the talk page. The editor that did add it stated that he did it boldly. If I actually cared more then I would revert and then the next step would be discuss further. It is cited at the Bradley talk page as a reason for not including any mention of the petitions at all. There is wide coverage of them but there seems to be a deadlock on how wide the coverage should be. It seems we have to wait for five newspapers to dedicate their first three pages to the petitions before some editors will accept them as well covered. We could also wait for a movie, book, and three songs about them. Then at least we could include them in a popular culture section.--Canoe1967 (talk) 02:07, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
- You are completely misrepresenting the discussion at Talk:Bradley Manning. The 'wide' coverage consists of little more than a couple of mentions in passing, as far as mainstream sources are concerned. As for revising the links policy, you are of course welcome to make a proposal - but 'reverting' a policy change made three years ago without yourself engaging prior discussion would be entirely unjustifiable. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:15, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
- It does read clearly but it was not written correctly. A wider consensus should have been done back in Oct 2010 instead of just a few editors on the talk page. The editor that did add it stated that he did it boldly. If I actually cared more then I would revert and then the next step would be discuss further. It is cited at the Bradley talk page as a reason for not including any mention of the petitions at all. There is wide coverage of them but there seems to be a deadlock on how wide the coverage should be. It seems we have to wait for five newspapers to dedicate their first three pages to the petitions before some editors will accept them as well covered. We could also wait for a movie, book, and three songs about them. Then at least we could include them in a popular culture section.--Canoe1967 (talk) 02:07, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
- I'm not sure there was any real confusion at Talk:Bradley Manning. Nobody suggested that the guideline forbids mentioning petitions. It was pointed out that the external links guideline prohibits links to petitions, and nobody seems to have queried it except Canoe1967. The discussion has been over the (lack of) media coverage of the petition - an issue of WP:WEIGHT. As for any proposal to change the guideline, I personally would object on principle to any change that singled out a particular form of petition specific to the U.S. as some sort of exception to the existing 'no links' guideline, and frankly can't see the need to revise the policy at all. It seems clear enough to me. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:56, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
- I don't have mixed them up but other editors are. Some don't want to include wide media coverage of petitions at Talk:Bradley Manning and citing this as the guideline to not even mention them in text. I can understand not linking to them but that may need clarification in the guideline. "Online petitions may be mentioned but direct links should be avoided" type thing. Pop over to the Manning talk page and see what I mean. I brought up the fact the policy may need an edit and was told to discuss policy elsewhere. I walked away but I think they are still locked in their discussion of it.--Canoe1967 (talk) 01:22, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
- As a late comment, let me add that WP:EL says repeatedly that it has absolutely nothing to do with reliable sources for article content. I believe that the current count is that the EL guideline mentions this fact in eight different places. If you need it to be in nine places so that you'll believe that it truly has absolutely nothing to do with what subjects you can talk about in the article, or which reliable sources you're permitted to cite, then feel free to leave a note at the guideline's talk page. WhatamIdoing (talk) 07:12, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
Verifying the identity of someone who claims to know the article's subject
I recently ran across a case of someone who said she was the wife of an article's subject and was saying we got certain biographical details wrong (kids). Is there some sort of a procedure in place for verifying that she is who she says she is, or a WP: help page with suggestions? (Note, the user in question is User:Judyameredith.) ~Adjwilley (talk) 00:02, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
- I would advise her to provide the correct information on the article's talk page. If she can provide a reliable source, then the article will almost certainly be corrected based on the verified information. It isn't important to verify whether she is who she says that she is. It is more important to verify whether the information that she supports is reliably sourced. (If she is who she says she is, she is a primary source, and one with a conflict of interest. Alternatively, you can post the information to the article's talk page, and it would be helpful if you would look for a reliable source. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:01, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
- I think we normally remove poorly sourced personal material if anyone brings it up as incorrect. Just my 2c worth though.--Canoe1967 (talk) 01:30, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
- We remove poorly sourced personal material from articles. I see no reason to remove poorly sourced personal comments from talk pages unless they violate some other policy. I think that poorly sourced comments that may be associated with the subject should be left on article talk pages. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:39, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
- That is what I meant. Remove the material from the article until the material on the talk page is well sourced.--Canoe1967 (talk) 01:42, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Canoe1967 hits the nail on the head here. There are two unrelated issues. 1) When someone brings badly sourced information to our attention, we fix it by removing the bad information. If someone provides better sources, we use those to correct or amend the information. 2) We don't particularly need to verify who she says she is. We can take it at face value, or ignore her claims, because it has no bearing on the article content. Either the sources for the contested information exist or they do not. If they do, cite them. If the do not, remove the info. Who she says she is is irrelevant. --Jayron32 01:44, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
- Thank you all for the clarification and the advice. I've asked her for a source (not sure if she'll respond) and rephrased the article to something that will work until a good source is found. ~Adjwilley (talk) 04:08, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
- We remove poorly sourced personal material from articles. I see no reason to remove poorly sourced personal comments from talk pages unless they violate some other policy. I think that poorly sourced comments that may be associated with the subject should be left on article talk pages. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:39, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
- I think we normally remove poorly sourced personal material if anyone brings it up as incorrect. Just my 2c worth though.--Canoe1967 (talk) 01:30, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
Use of non-free Bible translations
There is an RfC concerning what should Wikipedia's policy be on the use of non-free Bible translations: Wikipedia talk:Non-free content#RfC: Use of non-free Bible translations.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 13:51, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
Anthrax (UK band) Anthrax (band) relates to WP:PDAB in archive 107 here. In ictu oculi (talk) 14:21, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
RUDE!!!
I had a wellcome message from an administrator and tried to answer "thank you" in his page without my user name, I hadnt logged in. Then I suddenly saw a message that I was not allowed to edit -I was blocked with a non specific message. I can still edit with my user name so if anybody has a problem with my edits (and I really can not imagine who and why) he must also block this account to. The messsage goes like that "Editing from 46.103.0.0/16 has been blocked (disabled) by CT Cooper for the following reason(s): Long term abuse: Range being used by Antony1821." I beleive it s a mistake but nevertheles when somebody can block just because he-she is an administrator, shouldn' he at least explain why? Shouldn't the blocked one know what he or seomebody else from his PC has done? It is really absolutely rude to block without explanations. Even if I wanted to ask to be unblocked (to "appeal")- I certainly would consider a priority to know what exactly the accusation is about. I am deeply dissapointed and I strongly suggest to be polite with women and men editing. It is absolutely necesssary to be polite and explain the reasons you block. This (the polite explanations) must be a central dicisionOlmav (talk) 19:10, 27 June 2013 (UTC)