Talk:Lwów Ghetto

Name

"Lemberg Ghetto" 500/"Lviv Ghetto" 1,000/"Lwow Ghetto" 4,000. I suggest renaming this article to "Lwów Ghetto" (which was the city's name before WWII). Comments? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 18:58, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

agree.--Jacurek (talk) 22:30, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Lemberg was also a name for the city before the war and was also the name of the city when the Ghetto was established i.e during the German occupation. If you put down "Lwów Ghetto" it will look like it was a Polish ghetto or organized by the Poles whereas it was really organized by the Germans. Let us look at similar instances - Auschwitz is in Poland yet the term for the concentration camp uses the German name rather than the Polish on - and that has been specifically done in order to distance the Poles from the whole concept of these attrocities. Bandurist (talk) 22:48, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Allegedly?!

Please, don't make changes without looking in cited sources. For instance, the last edit [1] changed "Some 5000 Jews died as a result of this pogrom, perpetrated by Ukrainian nationalists and police." to "Some 5000 Jews died as a result of this pogrom, allegedly perpetrated by Ukrainian nationalists and police." The attempt to whitewash the Ukrainians is understandable, however, the source (Richard Breitman) states the following:

"Another large 'reprisal' came on 1 July in the city of Lemberg (Lvov), where the chief and staff of what was soon to be called Einsatzgruppe C had just arrived. The population of this main city in eastern Galicia was a mixture of Poles, Ukrainians, Jews, and ethnic Germans. Commander Dr Otto Rasch informed his men that Jews and some other inhabitants of Lemberg had killed a number of people in the city before the Russian troops retreated. Although this 'crime' did not affect the German forces, that mattered little. The Ukrainians had already created a local militia under a military commandant, which the Germans decided to use. Together with the militia, Einsatzkommandos 4a and 6 and a police unit brought in from Cracow rounded up some 3,000 suspects, mostly Jews, in the municipal stadium. The next day Rasch informed the men that he had received an order from Hitler that all those guilty or even suspected of involvement were to be executed. Rasch personally supervised the executions on 2 and 3 July. Moreover, another 5,000 Jews in the city died around the same time as a result of Ukrainian pogroms and police killings on the streets.³⁰"

The footnote 30 is:"Erwin Schulz Affidavit, 13 August 1947, NA RG 238. NO-3644, p. 3 of original, refers to 2,500 to 3,000 killed. EM no. 24, 16 July 1941, NA RG 242, T-175/R 233/ 2721538 cites an overall total of 7,000 shot by the police and 1,000 beaten and jailed by the Ukrainians during the period 30 June-3 July."

We can see that there is no allegedly here. It directly blames Ukrainians in pogroms.

In addition, the city's name during those time was "Lwow", or "Lvov".--Paul Siebert (talk) 20:35, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

I will put up the sources when I get some time. The name however wasn't Lvov or Lwow, at the time. During the occupation it was known as .... lemberg ... like the title of the article, although today it is known as Lviv.Bandurist (talk) 22:57, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Here is the section from Nakonechnyj' book: Shoa u Lvovi regarding the so-called Petlura days..

Євген Наконечний писав: «Німці розставляли євреїв на тлі трупів і робили фотографії з підписами: «Ось вони євреї-злочинці, поруч зі своїми невинними жертвами».

(...) Так було організовано злісну гестапівську провокацію, що тривала три дні. Історики називають її «в'язничною акцією». Прямо на вулицях хапали людей із яскраво вираженою єврейською зовнішністю (особливо пейсатих хасидів), приводили до тюрем і наказували виносити трупи. Липень - гарячий літній місяць. Трупи хутко розкладалися, сопух був неймовірний. Євреї голими руками, без санітарних пов'язок на обличчях, без рукавиць зносили на подвір'я з камер і підвалів людські останки. До тюрем прибули родичі та близькі помордованих, щоб забрати своїх і належно, за звичаєм, поховати. Гестапівці підбурювали родичів загиблих фізично розправитися з Богу духа винними євреями, що були на території тюрем. Євреїв називали винуватцями розстрілів і закликали родичів помститися. Для цього заздалегідь приготували металеві палиці. Дехто з родичів помордованих мстилися за смерть своїх дітей. Можна уявити собі стан навіть найбільш стриманої особи, коли їй показують труп рідної людини і демонструють «вбивцю» (...)

(...) Другого або третього липня я йшов до знайомих, що мешкали нижче теперішнього кінотеатру ім. Б.Хмельницького. На вулиці стояла валка сільських возів з трунами. Селяни приїхали забирати своїх загиблих. Сморід від розкладених трупів із Замарстинівської тюрми був таким сильним, що трамвай, який їздив цим маршрутом, припинив свої рейси. (...) Найстрашніше вражало те, що немало жертв було по-садистському помордовано: виколоті очі, відрізані язики, руки, ноги, у жінок - груди. Коли, затуливши хустинкою носа, я підійшов ближче, то почув страшенний лемент. То кричали не родичі помордованих, як я спершу подумав, а євреї, яких били нещадно, до смерті. Били куди попало, хто впав, того копали ногами».

(Наконечний Є. «Шоа» у Львові. Спогади. Львів, 2004. С. 106-111)

Bandurist (talk) 22:57, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Re: "I will put up the sources when I get some time." Before doing any changes you must prove the existing source to be wrong. It is not sufficient just to provide another source that gives a different interpretation of the events.

Re: Наконечний Є. «Шоа» у Львові. I have nothing against this quote, however, it is not clear for me what concrete statement does it support? That Ukrainians committed no pogroms?

Re: Lemberg-Lwow is like Auschwitz-Oświęcim. One way or the another, during WWII the city was known among the Allies as Lwow or Lvov.--Paul Siebert (talk) 23:47, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Lviv-Lvov-Lwow

For cities those names should be used that were in use during a corresponding historical period. If we speak about Roman Empire's time Vienna, we use Vindobona. When we talk about ancient Paris, we call it Lutetia, when we talk about WWII we use Stalingrad, not Tsatitsyn or Volgograd. Similarly, the Polish official name was Lwow, the Soviet official name was Lvov. Lviv is anachronism in this article.
I am not sure if we have to use Lwow, not Lvov. Lvov was an official Soviet city's name from late 1939 to the end of the USSR.--Paul Siebert (talk) 04:50, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Agree with Paul Siebert, also user Bandurist, please do not use false edit summaries (edits made by the restricted user etc.)--Jacurek (talk) 05:01, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

A comment on "please do not use false edit summaries". It was not a false summary, it was just a nonsense. What does "restricted user" mean? If some user is blocked he cannot edit. If someone can edit he is just a normal user with ordinary rights.--Paul Siebert (talk) 05:36, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Same story as with Breslau/1945/Wrocław. When writing about historical period, we should use appropriate name, which would be official name of the city in that time or the way most of its inhabitants referred to it. In that both cases it would be Lwów. I do not think it should be referred as Lvov, since Russian occupation in 1939 and later annexation of Lwów into USSR was internationally not recognized (should we call Warsaw Warschau between 1939 and 1945?). Shifting Poland westwards, with incorporation of Lwów into USSR, was recognized by Polish "government" (Stalin-imposed PKWN) in late 1944 and internationally only in 1945. Calling pre-1945 Lwów - Lviv would be, as Paul Seibert wrote "anachronism" and could be misleading, that the city was Ukrainian before the war, which I presume is the hidden intention of those constant corrections, but historically baseless. Since Europe is uniting, not dividing anymore, I think it's enough time for our Ukrainian friends to accept the fact that nowadays Lviv before WWII was an overwhelmingly Polish city of Lwów, as we in Poland accept the fact that nowadays Wrocław in 1939 was an exclusively German city of Breslau (same story goes with street names etc.).--PawkaLukasz (talk) 06:39, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Agree.--Jacurek (talk) 07:03, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

The city was Ledzanian 8th C, Morovian 9th C, Polans 960-980, Ruthenian 980-1349 (Ukrainian) and named Lev in 1256, occupied by the Polish 1349 and made part of Polish Kingdom in 1387-1704 (under which it could be said were numbers of years under Swedish rule); Austrian 1772-1914; Ukrainian 1918-1920; Polish 1920-1939; Russian 1939-1941; German 1941-1944; Russian 1944-1980 and Ukrainian 1980 finally part of Independant Ukraine in 1991

Ukrainian 420 Lev/Lviv, Polish/Swedish 350 Lwow, Austrian/German 150 Lemberg

The problems seem to be that the naming guidelines state "For articles discussing the present, use the modern English name", the city name is pronounced basically the same way in Polish and Ukrainian, and that (as Siebert says) the city was under Russian occupation from 1939-1941.

The real problem then who was in cahrge when the pogrom happened and, if it was the Germans, what did the Germans call it?

If Siebert is right the body should use the German spelling if it is going to be accurate and I doubt that anyone is going to agree to that one.

Chaosdruid (talk) 04:50, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Edit

I have removed a paragraph of unsourced/unreferenced waffle which offers unsubstantiated opinion on sources so as to downplay Ukrainian involvement in the events. This is effectively WP:OR and is not relevant or appropriate for the article. Of course sources can be contested, but only if similarly 'encyclopaedc' sources can be quted in support of such contest. I have also made it clear in the text, what Breitman clearly states in the source quoted, that Ukrainians took part in the series of pogroms.Clearly there is a lot of work left to do on this article - I am very surprised it has been given a B-class (particularly in its previous state) --Smerus (talk) 19:46, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Requested move 2011

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was move per request.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 01:56, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

---

Lemberg Ghetto → Lvov Ghetto – A much more common name, as searches on Google Books and Scholar show. (Lwów Ghetto is also much more common than the present title, though slightly less common than Lvov.) Not sure if Ghetto should be capitalized, but we have it so in other similar titles. Kotniski (talk) 08:26, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

• Support 3-4 times more results in Google Books. Consider holding a mass discussion to decide which capitalization is correct for all of them. Marcus Qwertyus 20:11, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

recent edits by an ip

[2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8],

constitute edit warring and a violation of the WP:3RR rule. Additionally they're not particularly constructive and may even border on vandalism. They are comprised of removal of an important image for no reason and adding "citation needed" tags to the first sentence of the lede - basically for the title of the article itself. If there's any reason for these edits what so ever I would invite the editor to justify them on the talk page here. Volunteer Marek  15:50, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

manipulation of city names

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.174.24.10 (talk) 16:20, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

This response is not actually helpful. Volunteer Marek  16:31, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Citations Needed

Virtually the entire section that goes out of its way to imply mass ukrainian collaboration (by use of weasel words such as 'some') is without citation and is largely as slanted as it is unsubstantiated. I am not taking a position on the history - what I am claiming is that it is very obvious that whoever wrote that section had an axe to grind and the result is, well, slanted and unencyclopedic and should be heavily revised if not scrapped and re-written in a more neutral and less tabloid fashion. The statement that includes the phrase "100%" is particularly unencyclopedic. I have peppered the area with many citation needed tags, giving those who have been working on this opportunity to back up and perhaps modify their statements into something more suitable for wikipedia. However, if i return in a few weeks and it is as it is, I will remove it and place the appropriate tags indicating that a vesion worthy of wikipedia is needed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.44.120.172 (talk) 06:06, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

• Drive-by tagging is not how we do things around here. Instead of trying to impose your personal views, I suggest you do your own research online and provide even more reliable third-party sources whenever necessary. Poeticbent talk 21:58, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Racism Should Be Removed

This article is extremely racist against Ukrainians. For example, "...hundreds of years of pent-up Ukrainian hatred for the Jewish population". Does this "hatred" include Cardinal Sheptytsky, who risked his own life to rescue thousands of Jews during World War II? This is inaccurate, amateurish, and sorely lacking a neutral POV.184.147.234.2 (talk) 01:45, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

A marginal note. Timothy Snyder wrote: Sheptyts’kyi welcomed the Nazis; he believed in the Waffen-SS and saved... "dozens of Jews"... [9] Please bring in reliable, web accessible third-party sources, and we'll see what we can do. Poeticbent talk 04:08, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Move? 2013

Lvov Ghetto → Lwów Ghetto –

• Polish name of the city is Lwów, Ukranian name is Lviv. I don't know who came up with "Lvov". Anyways, the article says Lwów throughout, so this should be the article name, too. bender235 (talk) 21:56, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
• Comment: Yes, that's what the article says. However, it seems like a potentially sensitive topic, involves diacritics and non-English spellings, and might benefit from study of what is prevalent in English-language sources. So it should be discussed rather than just happening without warning. —BarrelProof (talk) 01:15, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support move to Lwów Ghetto with redirect. It is a sensitive topic for sure, as the previous Requested move (right above) would also indicate. Lvov is a popular name in English literature, but NOT when the history of the Ghetto is concerned. See below. Poeticbent talk 23:26, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

1. "Lvov Ghetto" [minus] -Wikipedia 8,600 results
2. "Lwów Ghetto" [minus] -Wikipedia 20,500 results (overwhelmingly so)

• Oppose. At the time the ghetto existed, the city was commonly known in English as Lvov, which is the Russian name for it (so, to answer Bender235's question, it was the Russians who came up with it!). Remember that most cities in the Soviet Union (or that had been in the Russian Empire) were known in the West by their Russian names before the break-up of the USSR. On Wikipedia we usually use the name which was used at the time in English-language literature. Overwhelmingly, that was Lvov. -- Necrothesp (talk) 17:11, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support move to Lwów Ghetto. Lwów/Lviv had never been a part of the Russian Empire before the Bolshevik Revolution, apart from the short period of Russian occupation during WWI, between September 1914 and June 1915. So prior to WWII it was mainly known in the English speaking world under its German, Polish or Latinized name, Lemberg, Lwów or Leopol respectively. Soviet occupation of Lwów after the joint German-Soviet invasion of Poland in 1939 lasted only for about 21 months, before that former allies begun to struggle in June 1941 and the city was captured by Germans. The city was formally ceded by the Communist Government of Poland to the Soviet Union after the Potsdam Conference, so its Russian name, Lvov, applies to the period of 1945-1991, when it belonged to the Soviet state. PawkaLukasz (talk) 15:06, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
• Comment Lemberg Ghetto ? It wss created and used by the Germans, so logically, it should be called the "Lemberg Ghetto" -- 76.65.128.222 (talk) 11:23, 6 July 2013 (UTC)