Talk:Jimmy Savile

Innocent until proven guilty???

This issue troubles me. Unlike Jerry Sanduskey, Sir Jimmy Savile was never officially accused of any criminal or civil charge during his life about anything. Only one year after his death, did all the "accusers" come out of the woodwork. What gives??? Doesn't England have some sort of Constitutional guarantee like the USofA that a person has to be proven guilty of something before he can be "tagged" as such???johncheverly 20:52, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Technically, yes. But the Great British Press seems to have ensured, for very many years, that one remains guilty, until proven "innocent". The real puzzle is how Savile managed to keep his behaviour out of the tabloids until he was safely tucked up in Scarborough. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:10, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

So sometimes we accept what "the Great British Press" says, sometimes not. S. Fight (talk) 11:28, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Notice the wording in the article. Words like "accused", "suspected", "alleged", "believe to have been" appear throughout. Unlike Sandusky, Savile was never convicted, and will never be, so the wording has to reflect that.LM2000 (talk) 21:30, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

The documentary that set it all off was broadcast a year to the day after Sir Jimmy's death. That's when all the alleged victims started to make their claims.johncheverly 22:20, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Are you claiming that someone was bribing the BBC to keep the Savile estate untouched by claims in that intervening 12 months? (What does the law saw about such matters, I wonder?) But how does this affect the content of this article, exactly? Martinevans123 (talk) 22:26, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Does England have laws such as we do??? That is a relevant point here. What is the law about accusing, trying, and convicting a person of crimes after he is dead??? Thank God in the USofA we have a Constitutional Right to face our accusers. What does England's law say about Sir Jimmy's rights to face his accusers???johncheverly 22:42, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

I think it says that, in the present circumstances, it might be tricky. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:49, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps a section on English law as it relates to the Savile case may be in order. A lot of people are making a lot of wild, unsubstantiated claims against a dead man.johncheverly 02:49, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Please feel free to add one. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:34, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Sex life/Friendships.

In this interview on ITV's "This Morning" program in May 2012, Sue Hymns states that she and Savile were "together" for almost 20 years until his death in October 2011 and is "out to sea without him." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koueH9D04yg So her statements don't mean anything???johncheverly 21:13, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

I can't find any mention of her in reliable sources - only in the Daily Mail, which doesn't count. There is no way of knowing whether her claims are true. And, regarding whether or not she was central to his life, "One person mentioned in the Savile will was Sue Hymns, who in an attempt to quash rumours of Savile’s sexual misbehaviour, revealed last year that she and Savile had been romantically involved for 43 years. The will allocated £1,000 to her, but misspelled her surname." - [1] How romantic. Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:20, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

And why doesn't "The Daily Mail"??? It has a wikipedia page, so it must be legit. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daily_Mail "First published in 1896 by Lord Northcliffe, it is the United Kingdom's second biggest-selling daily newspaper after The Sun.[4] "johncheverly 21:36, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Please read WP:RS. The Daily Mail is generally not very highly regarded for the quality of its journalism. Obviously. Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:42, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

There you have it, video on a nationwide television show in the UK w/ Ms Hymn's stating that she and Savile had an ongoing relationship since 1993 up until his death, and a _Daily Mail_ report of a bequest that Ms Hymns mentions in the ITV interview. Do you know what the death duties aka inheritances taxes are in the UK??? It would be beneficial to her for Savile to give her the money before he died, don'tcha think??? Have you ever payed any kind of capital gains taxes in the USofA??? Pretty hefty.johncheverly 21:58, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Also, isn't it funny "The Daily Mail" is used already as a source???

^ Davies, Dan (6 October 2012). "'Little slaves', sordid boasts and the dark truth about my 'friend' Jimmy Savile, by the biographer who tried to unmask him". Daily Mail (London). Retrieved 8 November 2012.johncheverly 23:21, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Good point. Maybe that should be removed. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:25, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

No the Sue Hymns article should be added. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2069358/Jimmy-Saviles-secret-lover-Sue-Hymns-talks-VERY-unconventional-life-together.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koueH9D04ygjohncheverly 02:52, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

The Mail source should be removed - unless it presents reliably sourced and notable information which is unavailable from better sources elsewhere, which is possible but unlikely. I also think that the Alison Bellamy book, How's About That Then? should be mentioned, as should the other new book, Savile - The Beast by John McShane. Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:26, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

I agree that the Daily Mail is at best a 'biased' source, but don't feel it can be dismissed as a source.PeterM88 (talk) 08:22, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Bias. Expert Opinions Needed.

Has this article been vetted by a licensed/certified solicitor or barrister in the UK for opinions as to what right a dead person has in the UK with regard to his reputation and protection against potentially defamatory conduct vis a vis Constitutional Common Law in England???

Please reference the following article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_McAlpine#False_allegations_of_child_abuse

specifically

6.1 False allegations of child abuse [edit]

In November 2012, McAlpine was mistakenly implicated in the North Wales child abuse scandal, after the BBC Newsnight TV programme accused an unnamed "senior Conservative" of abuse.[41] McAlpine was widely rumoured on Twitter and other social media to be the person in question.[41] After The Guardian reported that the accusations were the result of mistaken identity,[42] McAlpine issued a strong denial that he was in any way involved.[43] The accuser, a former care home resident, unreservedly apologised after seeing a photograph of McAlpine and realising that he had been mistaken.[44] The BBC also apologised.[44] The decision to broadcast theNewsnight report without contacting McAlpine first led to further criticism of the BBC, and to the resignation of its Director-General,George Entwistle.[45] The BBC subsequently paid McAlpine £185,000 in damages plus costs.[46] He also won £125,000 in damages plus costs from ITV following a November 2012 edition of This Morning which linked Conservative politicians to allegations of child sex abuse.[47][48] McAlpine is to pursue twenty "high profile" tweeters who had reported or alluded to the rumours.[49] In February 2013, he dropped the defamation claims against Twitter users with fewer than 500 followers in return for a £25 donation to Children in Need.[50] In March 2013, McAlpine's representatives reached an agreement with writer George Monbiot, who had tweeted on the case and had at that time more than 55,000 followers on Twitter, for the latter to carry out work on behalf of three charities of his choice whose value amounts to £25,000 as compensation.[51] for direction.

An Expert, Neutral Legal Opinion is needed on article Jimmy Savile. Thanks.johncheverly 23:04, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Please don't copy and paste large chunks of articles from other websites, or other wikipedia articles, here, as it's almost impossible to read/ understand. And you don't need to make exact copies of threads at two different article Talk pages. It's easier to keep discussion in one place, at least to start with. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:29, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

I'm gonna keep doin' it because the witchhunters are not going to bring there unsubstantiated claims to Wikipedia.johncheverly 02:56, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Please don't start the same debate on multiple talk pages. There is no direct comparison between Lord McAlpine, who faced a single and obviously wrong allegation of child sexual abuse, and Savile, who faced many allegations of this kind. Also, please don't base accusations of bias on the obvious fact that a dead person cannot be put on trial or sue for libel. What counts is reliable media coverage, of which there is plenty.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 04:56, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

It is possible for a person to be tried in their absence (Trial in Absentia), but not after their death. In UK law Savile is innocent and incapable of being proved guilty. So, whilst the evidence may be overwhelming, the accusations should remain 'alleged'. With respect to those affected I would suggest it equally inappropriate to try to assert his technical innocence. PeterM88 (talk) 08:29, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Removal of KSGC, OBE, And Knighthood

I have removed these all from the page as they cease to exist after death, therefore he no longer has these honours (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19884359) PurpleMesa (talk) 17:46, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Can you cite a source for that? It looks like complete and utter bullshit to me. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:50, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19884359 "an OBE or a knighthood expires when a person die" — Preceding unsigned comment added by PurpleMesa (talk • contribs) 17:51, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

This has been discussed several times before. There is a problem if the real motive is to strip him of these honours posthumously, which cannot be done under current UK law.[2] Sure, they ceased to apply after his death, but Wikipedia articles such as Winston Churchill list titles that a person had in their lifetime in the first sentence.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 17:55, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Yeah they ceased to apply and do you honestly believe that we should keep it there if it doesnt apply? — Preceding unsigned comment added by PurpleMesa (talk • contribs) 17:59, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, but you are selectively reading a contradictory source. Are you proposing that we no longer refer to Sir Francis Drake for example under that name? It is entirely normal, as far as I'm aware, to still refer to the honours an individual receives after his/her death, and I see no reason to revise normal encyclopaedic practice based on a single questionable statement from the BBC. Savile received the honours, and there is as yet no reason to treat him differently from any other deceased individual, as far as I can see. If he is posthumously stripped of his honours, our article can reflect the fact. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:03, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

I quite agree. Does that BBC source really say "after a person dies, he or she cannot be referred to using those titles"? I had assumed that what was meant by "expires" there was in the sense of "how many knights of the realm are there at the moment" and "how many people had OBEs on 1st January 1988". etc. But it doesn't actually clarify what is intended there, does it? Martinevans123 (talk) 18:10, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Quite so. There is no case at all for PurpleMesa's edit unless and until Savile is officially stripped of his honours. It is not for Wikipedia to take arbitrary moral stances. -- Alarics (talk) 18:23, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

They don't cease to apply, the individual is simply no longer a member of the order. It may well be right to strip Savile of these honours, but removing them from his history is also wrong. You would have to do the same for anyone who died. Wikipidea is supposed to be 'even handed' and simply speak the truth, without regard for the individual being discussed. PeterM88 (talk) 09:37, 9 July 2013 (UTC)