Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Infoboxes

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Case Opened on 17:34, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

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Case information

Involved parties

• Ched (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), filing party
• WP:WikiProject Composers
• WP:WikiProject Infoboxes
• Pigsonthewing (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Gerda Arendt (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Nikkimaria (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
• Kleinzach (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Smerus (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Requests for comment

• Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive802#Persistent edit stalking
• User:Ched/RfC - Infobox I will pull some diffs from this page for the committee to review. I abandoned the page when I realized that the situation was bigger than I was able to handle on my own. (Ched)

Preliminary statements

Statement by Ched

I don't really know how to do this, and I don't know who to name as parties to the case. Still, I think at least some of the committee members are aware of the issues involved with the infobox situations. There are multiple RfC discussion to link to, and many threads available should the committee be willing to look at a case. In particular I would ask that the committee view the thoughts of the people active in the classical music area as a beginning point. I understand that it is not within the committees remit to determine content, but rather to resolve disruption. Said disruption can easily be demonstrated in an evidence stage. I ask the committee to assist me in determining the scope and parties of this case. — Ched :  ?  07:23, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

• disclaimer: I like infoboxes, so I do have a "side" that I favor. I will try to dig up some RfC diffs so that the Arbs can see that the community has tried to deal with this (and failed). — Ched :  ?  17:51, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

• I am going to list some diffs that Sjones dug up:
• To answer your question, the Classical Music and Composers project feel that the infoboxes there are "counter-productive" to be used in articles without discussing it first on the talk page. To quote the Composers WikiProject's stance on biographical infoboxes, "We think it is normally best, therefore, to avoid infoboxes altogether for classical musicians, and we prefer to add an infobox to an article only following consensus for that inclusion on the article's talk page. Particular care should be taken with Featured Articles as these have been carefully crafted according to clear consensus on their talkpages. (See the Request for Comment about composers' infoboxes and earlier infobox debates.)" There were numerous discussions about these matters at these projects. The infobox debates date way back to 2007. The following differences is a set of discussions on the use of the infoboxes from some of the WikiProjects in question: [1], [2], [3], [4], [5] (scroll down) [6] [7], [8], [9],[10], [11], [12], [13], [14], [15], [16], [17], [18], [19], [20], [21], [22], [23], [24], [25], [26] [27]. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 04:01, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

• further: I have spoken via email with former Arb member User talk:Iridescent who has advised me as to possible "parties" to this case. Some of those people I do consider "wiki friends", but if Iri does not object - then I will name them. I am also in frequent contact with former Arb User:Rlevse (now PumpkinSky), who I consider a VERY close friend. I've now asked the committee to look at this, and I am fully willing to answer any and all questions put to me. At this point I will allow the process to move forward. — Ched :  ?  18:47, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
• reference: Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2013-07-10/Dispatch
• I replied to Giano here
• at everyone: It should be noted that English is not the first language of Gerda. Gerda is from Germany, and I think it is important to note that "English" is not her native language, — Ched :  ?  23:36, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
• @ Giano, it's a fair question, but I honestly don't know how to answer it. I don't like seeing people get blocked or banned from things they enjoy. I also like Andy, although I don't edit in the areas mentioned. My own personal choice is to grant preferences to any original and/or principle author when it comes to formatting and infoboxes. There's nothing in policy that says that, just my own choice. I don't know how to resolve the situation; which is why I am looking to the Arb committee to find a way forward here. I'm not trying to avoid your question, it's just that I really don't know a good answer. — Ched :  ?  14:16, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Comment from Gerda Arendt (possibly involved)

On top of what Orlady described above, the latest development (which possibly made uninvolved Ched post) goes even further than biographies of classical music composers and performers. Project opera developed an infobox for operas, {{infobox opera}}, added to the MOS on 18 June. It complies with the Signpost article's request for brevity. However, almost every effort to actually use it is met with removal and time-consuming discussions, instead of showing it to our readers and let them participate in discussion and improvement. I was involved in creating the template and in inserting it. For an example, read talk (and history of article and talk) of Don Carlos. For more examples, look at the list of open discussions. I actually don't know what ArbCom could do to stop this, in the interest of our readers. I made several attempts to seek agreement, last here. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:03, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

@Resolute: you mentioned names, including mine. I have great respect for Nikkimaria, we found an agreement during the last AN/I exchange, she respects my wish for an infobox in "my" articles, I respect her wish for no infobox in "her" articles, we created The Company of Heaven together (no infobox). I have great respect for Andy, he helped me with {{infobox Bach composition}}, and we create articles together, did you know (with infobox)? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:33, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

@Toccata quarta: I see the present "project specialties" in conflict with site consistency; restrictions seem to serve the interests of the writers more than the readers. Readers expect to see an infobox in the upper right corner. For most composers, they see only a picture (there are exceptions), for most operas, they see a sidebar navbox, which in cases of prolific composers such as Richard Wagner duplicates information that is also in the footer navbox, information which is the same for all his operas, nothing about the specific work. - Composer: I believe that an infobox doesn't "damage" an article (the term has been used). For composers with a wealth of information in a footer navbox, it could simply supply dates and locations of birth and death, to provide a quick information about historic and geographic context, - suggested for George Frideric Handel. Opera: compare Carmen as it is to Carmen as it can be. In short: I would like to see restrictions go that prevent to consistently inform the readers. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:18, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

@Smerus: I have high respect for you as an editor, author of FA Richard Wagner, and I thank you for a GA review of my BWV 103 (with an infobox). I have to correct some of your descriptions of my actions.

• "Ms. Arendt makes, without consultation, edits ..." - 1) everybody here can call me Gerda. 2) It reads as if I made those edits to articles. Composers: I did not add an infobox to a "controversial" composer. Opera: I didn't think infoboxes supported by the project would be considered "controversial".
• "... then feigns hurt innocence and surprise in her responses ..." - 1) I was honestly (!) surprised by some responses, I must say, and ask those who have no idea to actually read one or two of those "discussions" and not go by a summary. 2) "innocence" implies that there is a guilt, - sorry, I don't feel "guilty" of suggesting an infobox on an article's talk.

I don't want to waste everybody's time by going into more detail, there would be much more. Andy is just back from hospital and can't respond as he would wish to do. If you allow me also a summary: I found his contributions in the discussions factual and to the point. He did not breach a topic ban. AN clarification: he is not banned from any talk page. He is not employed as Wikipedians in Residence. What else? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:05, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

@EdChem thank you --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:09, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

@Giano: the experience you describe, what date is it? I came late to the discussions, and - repeating - the contributions of Andy (whose surname is Mabbett) seemed much less "heated" than those of others, - please look yourself. Also repeating: even without him, you would still have to deal with me ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:35, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

@Laser brain: please give me one example of what you consider "disruptive behaviour" from 2013. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:04, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

@Folantin: Can you tell me how the Wagner discussion would have profited from Andy's absence? (Remember: it was NOT about an infobox for the article.) - Can you tell me where I or Andy or anybody else requested a mandatory infobox? - Can you show me one instance of "imposing infoboxes" in 2013? - Please read above what I said above about the heat in arguments. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:31, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

@Ewulp: The five arguments for infoboxes that I see are shown in my link above. They are different from the ones you see. - Another user recently expressed his belief in the infobox having to summarize the article. Wrong. (The belief is wrong. The request would mean asking too much from the infobox.) It only has to sumarize key facts. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:40, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

@SPhilbrick: Many good questions. I don't know if anybody noticed, but I started following a voluntary 1RR rule on opera infoboxes, although I think that these boxes - just introduced by the project - should be shown to the readers, not only talk page readers and article history readers. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:47, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

@Anthonyhcole: I don't share your view that it is simple. Please give me one example of the behaviour problem you allude to in 2013.

@NW: your wording "ban the worst offenders" reminds me of "arrest the usual suspects". As one of them, I urge you to go beyond suspicion, to facts, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:56, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

@Sjones23: Please note that I have high respect for Tim riley, won him back to the project, work with him and am proud to be considered helpful by him [28], [29]. Tim asked Andy for help with an infobox, asked about his health and greeted him on his return, - if we had more of that attitude the "problem" was solved. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:30, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Comment by Kleinzach

In June, I discovered Ched's draft userspace RfC - Infobox and wrote to him as follows:

Excuse me gatecrashing. I recently discovered this draft Rfc and I have many concerns, not least that it specifically targets classical music editors. It seems to have been framed from the 'metapedian' point of view that community harmony, structural uniformity etc. are of overriding importance rather than the competing 'exopedian' view that we are trying to publish correct information and serve the reader. For example. the introductory section, 'Scope', doesn't even mention the encyclopedia.

Participants in the drafting also seem to be largely from the 'metapedian' camp. AFAIK none of the editors with reservations about the application of infoboxes, who have participated in previous debates and Rfcs, were invited to take part or found the draft. Nor are any of the 'moderates' — the people who are broadly pro metadata but who recognise publishing issues — involved. So it seems more of a referendum, crafted to achieve a particular result, than a genuine Rfc. I think it would cause even more fighting, rather than lead to improved consensus. I hope it can be dropped.

WikiProject Composers is now on its last legs. There are only about a dozen active editors left from what was a dynamic, high quality project around 2007-2008. Launching an Rfc targeting classical music will present editors with the choice of participating in yet another gargantuan time sink or looking for the exit. If they are rational, they'll opt for the latter. Once again, I think it would be better not to proceed with this. It's simply the wrong approach. Thank you and regards. Kleinzach 23:30, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

This is essentially my view of this Arbcom initiative as well.

For the record, I am placing here a list of box-related debates involving music that have occurred over the past six months or so. (This list does not include similar discussions about the visual arts, architecture etc.) I hope uninvolved editors can read, or at least scan, some of the discussions in order to understand the issues. IMO they are significant and may well affect the future style, authority and accuracy of the encyclopaedia, as well as the continued involvement of many hitherto productive editors.

Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents (ANI)

• Bullying and ownership concerns at Talk:Johann Sebastian Bach and Sparrow Mass over the use of infoboxes Report by Jusdafax, 2 April 2013
• Persistent edit stalking Report by Andy Mabbett, 5 June 2013 against Nikkimaria.

User pages

• User:Ched/RfC - Infobox and User talk:Ched/RfC - Infobox Rfc plan started by Ched, 5 April 2013

Classical Music Project

• Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Classical_music#Orchestra_infobox:_proposal new box proposed by Kleinzach, 16 March 2013 (see also Template talk:Infobox orchestra)
• Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Classical_music#Abbreviations_in_infoboxes by Kleinzach, 23 April 2013

Composition articles

• Talk:Sparrow Mass Infobox discussion started by RexxS, 30 March 2013.
• Talk:The Rite of Spring Infobox discussion started by Andy Mabbett, 30 May 2013.
• Talk:Ihr werdet weinen und heulen, BWV 103 Infobox discussion started by Nikkimaria 27 May

Composer articles

• Talk:Robert_Stoepel#Infobox_proposal infobox proposal by Gerda Arendt, 27 February 2013
• Talk:Enrique_Granados#Infobox_on_this_article: discussion started by Kleinzach, 4 March 2013
• Talk:Peter_Planyavsky#Infobox discussion started by Gerda Arendt, 5 March 2013
• Talk:Johann_Sebastian_Bach#Infobox_proposal infobox proposal by Gerda Arendt, 21 March 2013
• Talk:George_Frideric_Handel#Mini-infobox infobox proposal by Gerda Arendt, 25 March 2013
• Talk:Richard_Wagner/Archive_13#No_infobox ‘no infobox’ proposal by Gerda Arendt, 16 May 2013

Opera articles

• Talk:Joseph_(opera)#Infobox discussion started by Kleinzach, 23 June 2013
• Talk:Don Carlos#Restoration_of_composer_navbox discussion started by Robert.Allen, 7 July 2013
• Talk:Rigoletto#Restoration_of_composer_navbox discussion started by Kleinzach, 7 July 2013

MOS

• Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Infoboxes/Archive_7#Collapsed_or_hidden_infoboxes protest against collapsing infoboxes started by Andy Mabbett, 6 March 2013

Templates for deletion (TFD)

• Wikipedia:Templates_for_discussion/Log/2013_March_15#Template:Collapsed_infobox_section_begin now closed as keep. nomination by Andy Mabbett 15 March 2013
• Wikipedia:Templates_for_discussion/Log/2013_June_5#Template:Infobox_Bruckner_symphony proposed by Andy Mabbett 5 June 2013 (result:merge/delete)
• Wikipedia:Templates_for_discussion/Log/2013_June_5#Template:Infobox_musical_work proposed by Andy Mabbett 5 June 2013 (result:delete)

Kleinzach 02:18, 13 July 2013 (UTC) List updated. Kleinzach 03:28, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Comment from Smerus (apparently involved)

I see that my name has been invoked by the bemused Edchem.

Over the past year or so in particular, a series of disputes has arisen concerning the adoption of infoboxes in articles relating to classical music. This appears to me to have been driven by two editors in particular; there has been, for example, no series of comments from Wikipedia users demanding that classical music articles must have infoboxes. The two editors concerned are Gerda Arendt and Andy Mabbett. Their styles are different. Ms. Arendt makes, without consultation, edits and changes which she knows (by now) will be provocative and annoying to some editors, and then feigns hurt innocence and surprise in her responses. She is frequently then supported in her efforts by Mr. Mabbett, whose style is distinctly more nasty and brutal (but alas not short). When User:Johnuniq writes that ‘The editors involved are expert at being civil’, he is clearly not reading Mr. Mabbett’s threads. Quite often a bunch of usual suspects, like Mr.Mabbett unknown as music article editors, follow him into these frays, adopting the same egregious style. The ‘arguments’ normally turn on the supposed necessity or inevitability of having infoboxes; dissenting opinions (e.g. those which query the actual value of an infobox) are ignored. This process is quite intimidating to editors who are not equipped to, or interested in, scoring points. Some, like me, sometimes admittedly foolishly, rise to the bait. But not all of us are, like Mr. Mabbett, actually employed as Wikipedians in Residence and can devote all hours of the day to pursuing our pet crusades.

To elaborate one recent example, already raised here by Edchem, Richard Wagner. A couple of days before this was featured on the front page of WP (22 May 2013), Ms. Arendt, who knew that the article was going to be thus featured, chose to park a vast ‘sample’ Wagner infobox on the talkpage of the article. (See here). This was not, as Edchem says, ‘after a suggestion by Brad’, but was entirely Ms. Arendt’s initiative. This was a provocative moment for undertaking such a contentious edit, which soon accumulated a deal of comment from editors, including Mr. Mabbett, much of it bilious on both sides (I do not except myself, who was feeling peeved, to say the least). Ms. Arendt then, quite charmingly (credit where credit is due!), on the morning of the bicentenary posted on the talk page a compendium of Wagner ‘Do You Knows’. I therefore archived the already extensive talkpage before this item (including the ‘infobox’ and discussion), to give Ms. Arendt’s more recent edit a decent airing to article visitors. Mr. Mabbett then unilaterally unarchived the talkpage and initiated an extensive squabble. His motivation seems inexplicable except in terms of a desire to agitate. By the way, at this time (and I believe still at the present) Mr. Mabbett was under a ban from interfering with FAs when they are to be front-paged. He has speciously (in my opinion) argued in his defence that the ban didn’t mention talk-pages.

Whilst there are issues of principle involved in this topic, I in fact believe that most discussions of infoboxes on pages could be dealt with on a case by case basis (or probably wouldn’t arise at all) if the few zealots who have provoked the issue into a major battlefield in the past could desist – or be asked to desist – or perhaps even made to desist.--Smerus (talk) 07:12, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

I stand corrected by Gerda: Mr. Mabbett has been until recently a Wikipedian in Residence (in Burnley, and before that, elsewhere). I of course wish him better as an individual, whilst continuing to deprecate his aggression on Wikipedia.--Smerus (talk) 09:25, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

@ all: Of interest (and relevance).--Smerus (talk) 13:46, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Comment by Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing)

The tone of debate offered by those opposed to the use of infoboxes (at all, or in specific areas) can be measured by the disingenuous and dishonest ad hominem comments made by some editors, above, and those calling for bans who have failed time and again to demonstrate community support for such calls at ANI.

If people are being bullied into having infoboxes, why do so many of the articles in Kleinzach's list, or otherwise described as being the subject of contentious action, still not have them? (Note that he also lists three TfDs, describing one was "closed as keep". He's omitted to mention that the other two were closed as delete. I wonder why?).

I concur with those above saying there is no evidence that a case should be opened; but if there must be one, then Arbcom members are welcome to read the outcomes of the RfC called by members of the classical music project a while ago (also missing from Kleinzach's list), not least "Infoboxes are not to be added nor removed systematically from [classical music-related] articles. Such actions would be considered disruptive.", and to determine who has, or has not, abided by them.

Proposals to give effective vetos to "primary authors" (how is that to be measured?) or to self-appointed projects are orthogonal to core Wikipedia values, not least WP:OWN. Attempts to define a super-class of editors who are above others, likewise.

I'm inclined to agree with Mark Arsten; a centralised RfC is the proper approach. For a year or more, I've been inviting those opposed to infoboxes to call one to demonstrate support for their claims of consensus, but they have never done so. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:06, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Final decision (none yet)

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Remedies

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Enforcement

Enforcement by block

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