Talk:Jasenovac concentration camp

The name Srbosjek

The name Srbosjek. How the knife became known by that name? Is it known if the name Srbosjek was used by surviving Jasenovac concentration camp inmates to describe that particular kind of knife in their books? In this book by Dr. Nikola Nikolić ("Jasenovački logor smrti", NIŠP "Oslobođenje", Sarajevo, [1975]), who was a surviving inmate from Jasenovac, there is a photo of that kind of knife, but the name Srbosjek is not used to describe the knife. Under the photo of the knife it is written: "Specijalo izrađen nož s namjerom za masovno klanje" (Specially made knife with intention for mass butchering). On page 41 of the same book he goes into detail to explain the knife but also he does not use the name Srbosjek to name the knife. If somebody have books that are published by surviving inmates of Jasenovac early on after ww2 to see if there is mentioning of that knife there and is it named as Srbosjek?--Rovoobo oboovoR 07:47, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Brzica and others used a knife that became known as the Srbosjek, meaning "Serb-cutter".[73][74][75][76][77][dead link]

We still do not know when the knife became known as the Srbosjek.

• Ref 73 is from 2007. Would be good to know upon which source it relies to call it Srbosjek.
• Ref 75 is from 1994. Would also be good to know upon which source it relies to call it Srbosjek.
• Refs 74 and 76 do not have pages written for checking them.

74.^ Hory, Ladislaus; Broszat, Martin (1964). Der kroatische Ustascha-Staat, 1941-1945. Deutsche Verlags-Anstalt Stuttgart.

76. ^ Egon Berger (1966). 44 mjeseca u Jasenovcu. Zagreb: Grafički Zavod Hrvatske.

Does somebody knows at which page in these two books the knife is mentioned as Srbosjek? Would be good to know if Egon Berger as a surviving inmate calls the knife Srbosjek in his book.

• Ref 77 is a dead link.--Rovoobo Talk 08:01, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

non-WP:RS sources

I have started this thread to document serious questions about the lack of reliability/NPOV of several sources used in this article. I have already raised this issue over at World War II persecution of Serbs. The first I want to raise is Carl Savich, for example, he has been heavily criticised for bias and lack of research by the historian Marko Attila Hoare on his blog at [1]. I believe this criticism, in which Hoare questions the lack of evidence for Savich's claims is sufficient to draw into question his reliability and the use of him as a source on a matter as sensitive and controversial as this one lends undue weight to his work. Carl Savich and the Serbian nationalist blog website "Serbianna" cannot be seen as a reliable source. I have commenced removing all such refs. Peacemaker67 (talk) 06:44, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

I have also started removing all primary sources such as trial testimony which has not been fact checked or analysed in a secondary source, and non-WP:RS like the grayfalcon blog, the autobiographical books by Danon and Ivanevic, and the pavelic-papers. Peacemaker67 (talk) 06:52, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

and refs from the "Jasenovac Research Institute" www.jasenovac.org. Peacemaker67 (talk) 11:42, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

Inclusion of Sisak camp in the Jasenovac article (as part of the Jasenovac complex)

According to the official website [2], Jasenovac consisted of five camps:

• Camp I (Krapje);
• Camp II (Bročice)
• Camp III (Brickworks) in Jasenovac
• Camp IV (Tannery work detail)
• Camp V (Stara Gradiška)

it also included work farms at Mlaka, Jablanac, Gređani, Bistrica and Feričanci, and the killing grounds across the river at Donja Gradina, and the Uštica gypsy camp. I have searched Google books for any WP:RS that states the Sisak camp was part of the Jasenovac complex, and have found none. I propose removing the reference to Sisak from this article, and merge any reliably sourced Sisak-specific material in this article into the Sisak article. Peacemaker67 (talk) 09:50, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

They list the Sisak camp separately at

• http://www.jusp-jasenovac.hr/Default.aspx?sid=6877
• http://www.jusp-jasenovac.hr/Default.aspx?sid=7375

But I think you could go one step further and create Concentration camps in the Independent State of Croatia, because there were many more, and even all of those we have articles for aren't linked from the main NDH article. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 12:28, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Tomasevich Vol 2 also lists it separately. My plan was always to cover all concentration camps in Yugoslavia. I have names for about thirty, including German ones. I thought it would be good to start on the hardest one (being this it), then branch out. Peacemaker67 (talk) 12:35, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Brick factory

Brick factory was closed in early 1942. The article leaves impression as it was extensively used. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.147.130.8 (talk) 15:26, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

article is self-contradictory

The article is self-contradictory about how many people were killed in the camps.

1)"specifying the means of extermination, the Nazis often arranged the imprisonment or transfer of inmates to Jasenovac.[18][19] Kasche's emissary, Major Knehe, visited the camp in 6 February 1942. Kasche thereafter reported to his superiors:

Capitan Luburic, the commander-in-action of the camp, explained the construction plans of the camp. It turns out that he made these plans while in exile. These plans he modified after visiting concentration-camps installments in Germany.[20]" This proves that it was indeed an extermination camp. Hence, most of the prisoners were killed.

2) "several instances, inmates were immediately killed for confessing their Serbian ethnicity and most considered it to be the only reason for their imprisonment.[35] The Serbs were predominantly brought from the Kozara region, where the Ustaše captured areas that were held by Partisan guerrillas.[36] These were brought to the camp without sentence, almost destined for immediate execution, accelerated via the use of machine-guns.[37] The exact number of Serbian casualties in Jasenovac is uncertain, but the lowest common estimates range around 60,000 people, and it is estimated to be the most significant part of the overall Serbian casualties of World War

The number of Jewish casualties is uncertain, but ranges from about 8,000[39] to almost two thirds of the Croatian Jewish population of 37,000 (meaning around 25,000).[40]

Jasenovac camp also consisted of a unique camp for children in Sisak. Around 20,000 children of Serbian, Jewish and Roma ethnicities perished in Jasenovac."

Right there you have 88,000 people at minimum, not including the gypsies or Roma.

---

3)The Ustaše in Jasenovac also imprisoned numerous people of other ethnicities, including Ukrainians, Romanians and Slovenes.[47]

When gypsies arrived in the camp, they did not undergo selection, but were rather concentrated under the open skies at a section of camp known as "III-C". From there the gypsies were taken to liquidation in Gradina, working on the dike (men) or in the corn fields in Ustice (women) in between liquidations. Thus Gradina and Ustica became Roma mass grave sites.

Velika Kustarica: According to the state-commission, as far as 50,000 people were killed here in the winter amid 1941 and 1942.[108] There is more evidence suggesting that killings took place there at that time and afterwards.

--- Since 50,000 were killed by the end of 1942, then what was going on from 1943 to April 1945? Why would the pace of killing have slowed, as the war against the partisans intensified during that period?

4)The Vatican's sources also speak of similar figures, that is, for an example, of 350,000 ethnic-Serbs slaughtered by the end of 1942.(Eugen Tisserant[121])In the same spirit, Miroslav Filipović-Majstorović, once captured by Yugoslav forces, admitted that during his three months of administration, 20,000 to 30,000 people died.[124] Since it became clear that his confession was an attempt to somewhat minimize the rate of crimes committed in Jasenovac, having, for an example, claimed to have personally killed 100 people, extremely understated, Miroslav's figures are evaluated so that in some sources they appear as 30,000-40,000.[125]

-- The Vatican states 350,000 Serbs killed by the end of 1942, yet the article claims that 350,000 Serbs died total during the war. Majstorovic admitted to some 20-30,000 in only a few months!

It is obvious that far more than 100,000 people died, given these statistics and evidence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.239.209.92 (talk) 08:02, 19 July 2012 (UTC) 74.239.209.92 (talk) 08:07, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

It's not self-contradictory, it merely describes the confusion about the matter that exists in the primary sources. There's even such a problem in some of the sources that were supposed to be secondary - for example the State Commission was supposed to analyze the data and present a reliable conclusion, but its work on that aspect has been seriously brought into question by later analyses.

The overall number has to come from reliable secondary sources, we can't just calculate it ourselves by adding some or all of those assorted numbers - please read WP:SYNTH. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 09:43, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

agree with Joy. This article needs a lot of work to remove the unsourced claims, contrast various claims and point to the conclusions and analysis of those that have done the work. In my view, due to its controversial nature, everything in this article needs an inline citation of a WP:RS. There is still a lot of primary source material used where the publishing of the source is via unreliable websites. I will start trying to source this information soon. I also believe there is a big question over whether court testimony is useable. Essentially, from a legal point of view, testimony on its own is untested. Producing the testimony without the questions and answers the witness made in the witness box following their evidence in chief and without the conclusions the judiciary drew about the testimony cannot possibly be considered a reliable source. I am not suggesting this is the case here, but a witness could say anything in court about what was done at Jasenovac, but if the judiciary concluded that the witness was unsure of their evidence and that part or all of it should be disregarded by a jury (or whatever legal structure the trial was under) for whatever reason, that testimony would be questionable at best. Being published in serbianna is also a significant issue. If we are going to be using primary source information, we need to make sure it is reliably published and corroborated from other secondary sources. Does anyone have access to the judgement from the Sakic trial? Peacemaker67 (talk) 01:17, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

reference

The reference to an unknown Gestapo man may be: Franz Müller, member of Gestapo in Ljubljana and Litija. He was executed in Yugoslavia. http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=25428&start=15

Oskar or Oscar Turina — Minister of Interior, Named by Siegfried Kasche as responsible for deportation of the Jews.

It may be useful to you. best, 74.239.209.92 (talk) 07:21, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

with all due respect, they are useless unless they are WP:RS, which a blog on axishistory is not. Regards, Peacemaker67 (talk) 14:34, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

removal of non-WP:RS

I have removed most non-WP:RS from this article, but have not rm the text. I will start rm the text shortly unless some WP:RS are produced to support the contentions made. Peacemaker67 (talk) 14:58, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

WP:SYNTH in the "Statistical estimates section"

The section attempts to construct a case against Žerjavić and his Jasenovac estimates by using irrelevant/non sequitur statements that aim to show him in a bad light:

Kočović [...] accused Žerjavić of being motivated by nationalism.

So what if Žerjavić actually was a nationalist? What of it? The reader is lead to believe this accusation had something to do with Jasenovac, but Kočović may have made it in a completely unrelated dispute. (We don't know, as it is unsourced.) Also, did Kočović actually dispute Žerjavić's figures? Are their respective numbers far apart? The text does not say.

Žerjavić has been dismissed as a nationalist even by Kočović

Why "even"? Does one expect that Kočović being a Serb should normally make him somehow less sensitive to Žerjavić's purported Croatian nationalism?

Žerjavić was accused by Croatian historian Kazimir Katalinić of being a plagiarist and the 'court statistician'.

But that was a criticism by the Croatian far right regarding the number of Bleiburg victims as estimated by Žerjavić, which they felt was not high enough. The source does not mention Jasenovac at all. This is just an improper synthesis used as a weapon against Žerjavić. GregorB (talk) 20:47, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. Of course this is just one of the problems with this article. Tomasevich deals with the work of both Žerjavić and Kočović in detail in his Vol 2 and states something like 'Historians are indebted to Žerjavić for his work'. He essentially accepts Žerjavić's work as the best and adopts his figures. When I get a chance I will re-work it. Peacemaker67 (talk) 00:24, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Okay. I could have simply deleted the "nationalist" statement(s), which were unsourced and challenged (may do it still), but given the sensitivity of the subject, I wanted to give a full rationale here first. GregorB (talk) 08:01, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Don't let me stop you. I've already deleted quite a bit of unsourced and/or unreliable sourced material from this article. So far I've only had time to rework the lead. Peacemaker67 (talk) 08:14, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

I've just deleted the "Žerjavić was a nationalist" statement (repeated twice). Also deleted the part about the Bosnian war estimates, as it was unsourced and challenged too (and was also a part of the WP:SYNTH problem described above). I've left the rest as it stands, I'm leaving that judgment to other editors.

I've left the Katalinić's opinion too, although it doesn't make sense at all:

• IIRC, Žerjavić worked independently from Kočović, before learning about his results. Kočović was, of course, well aware of Žerjavić's work, and he apparently didn't have any problems with its originality.
• What does "court statistician" mean? The "court" may only refer to the Yugoslav communist authorities. How Žerjavić was being a sycophant by dashing the official figures promulgated by these authorities is beyond me.

Again, my reasoning may or may not be worth much here, it's up to others to decide. GregorB (talk) 15:35, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Notable inmates

WP requires refs to be added to each article. I tagged this section but the tag has been reverted. I intend to retag the section, as the editor has not provided the citations, instead indicating in the edit summary that the info is cited on other WP articles. This is not consistent with WP policy. Peacemaker67 (talk) 21:47, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Agree. Although, interestingly enough, I could not find a Wikipedia policy that explicitly says that references in linked articles do not count. I suppose this is obvious to most experienced editors. GregorB (talk) 22:12, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

It's WP:CIRCULAR, in case anyone asks. GregorB (talk) 11:58, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, I'm sure I'll use it shortly! It's bound to come up... Peacemaker67 (talk) 12:03, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

File:Ustasamilitia.jpg

Please see commons:File talk:Ustasamilitia.jpg. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 09:15, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Lack of RS

I want to thank User:Joy for correcting mistake regarding the HRT source. However this article is still full of unsourced material and a lot of work is needed to make this article in line with Wikipedia standardsTritomex (talk) 14:29, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

General lack of neutrality and forced perspective in some parts

"Water: Jasenovac was even more severe than most death camps in one respect: a general lack of potable drinking-water. Prisoners were forced to drink water from the Sava river."

- I don't think that the camps need to be a 5star hotels... again of German camps to have built drinking system was not out of "compassion or worry for prisoners", but because the German camps were even more system-atical including with their killings. This actually which looks like a very manipulative sentence totally lacks and undermines a perspective of a >>death<< camp..

188.230.146.71 (talk) 05:07, 3 August 2013 (UTC)