Wikipedia:Village pump (idea lab)

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The idea lab section of the village pump is a place where new ideas or suggestions on general Wikipedia issues can be incubated, for later submission for consensus discussion at Village pump (proposals). Try to be creative and positive when commenting on ideas.
Before creating a new section, please note:

• Discussions of technical issues belong at Wikipedia:Village pump (technical).
• Discussions of policy belong at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy).
• If you're ready to make a concrete proposal and determine whether it has consensus, go to the Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals). Proposals worked out here can be brought there.

Before commenting, note:

• This page is not for consensus polling. Stalwart "Oppose" and "Support" comments generally have no place here. Instead, discuss ideas and suggest variations on them.
• Wondering whether someone already had this idea? Search the archives below, and look through Wikipedia:Perennial proposals, and Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)/Persistent proposals.

« Archives, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62

ethnic/racial demographics of US cities/counties/states

My apologies if this is the wrong place to raise this question, but this is the first time I've tried to get involved with Wikipedia other than on an individual article basis.

Yesterday, someone pointed out a news article about three voting rights lawsuits in Santa Clarita, California, in which the city and two school districts (the Santa Clarita Community College District and the Sulphur Springs School District) are accused of using at-large election methods in a way that prevents Latinos from being adequately represented. In following up on this, I looked at the Wikipedia article on Santa Clarita, and I noted that its demographics section presents information on the ethnic composition in a way that makes it impossible to compare the Latino population of the city to the white non-Hispanic population of the city (the groups alleged to be underrepresented and overrepresented in the lawsuits).

The US Census has separate questions about what race a person is and whether a person is or is not Hispanic/Latino. Thus the first-level data in census information has things divided into racial groups (White, Black, Asian, Native American, Pacific Islander, other, two or more races) in one place and into Hispanic/Latino and non-Hispanic/Latino in another place, and this is what is provided in the Santa Clarita article, instead of going into some of the second level data to give the White non-Hispanic population (and Black non-Hispanic, Asian non-Hispanic, etc.) to group the population in a way that adds up to 100% (except for small discrepancies due to rounding).

This seems to be typical of the demographics sections of articles on cities in California (I also checked Hayward and Santa Clara) and other US states with substantial Latino populations. However, some articles do include statistics on White non-Hispanic population that can be compared with Latino population (all races), for example those on Demographics of California and on Denver, Colorado.

It seems to me that it would be much more useful, at least in areas with significant Latino population, for the racial/ethnic breakdown in articles to be White non-Hispanic, Black non-Hispanic, Asian non-Hispanic, etc. non-Hispanic, and Latino/Hispanic (all races), with racial categories that include both non-Hispanic and Hispanic given only parenthetically or in a footnote. This would correspond more to how people in these places perceive race and ethnicity, and to the racial and ethnic classifications used in public policy discussions.

If there is agreement on this (or some other way of presenting racial/ethnic breakdowns of population), is it something that could or should be a guideline for demographic sections of articles on US cities, counties and states? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dave Alfa (talk • contribs) 17:55, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Ultimately, I think the demographics breakdown should reflect how the demographics are broken-down by the sources. This will keep things from deviating too far from the reliable sources, and will also be more neutral (especially since the edge points of ethnicities are often controversial.) Just my two cents. Jztinfinity (talk) 12:46, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Accessing Wiki Content from 3rd Party Website using API

Hello There, Greetings ! We are developing a professional development tool which will map user's skills & knowledge and in-turn suggest additional good articles links etc which the user can read to grow their skills & knowledge further. The USP of the tool is that it recommends an extremely "Personalized" content to the user which can help them grow further. Currently our tool is under development. Our schedule private beta launch in on 15th Aug 2013. In this regard, We feel our tool can add huge value in taking the Wiki Content to the right audience in a very "Personalized" manner and in turn help the user grow their skills. 'We wanted to understand how we can access the Wiki content in our website using API or some other means.'Bold text Looking forward for your comments ! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.197.178.83 (talk) 11:31, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Documentation for the API can be found at http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/api.php . Is that what you're looking for? --Yair rand (talk) 12:06, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

A language forum?

Something I miss on Wikipedia is a language forum (or Wikiproject) where we could ask questions about and discuss correct language. I don't mean a specific language guide for Wikipedia (which is currently at least partly covered by WP:MOS, but a more general discussions about correct terminology in specific areas and more generally. Now, for instance we have a general election coming up in Norway, and it could have been useful for me to have a forum to ask for some advices about terminology related to elections (for instance related to the election list system which is different from the system in most English-speaking countries, but similar to the system in many other countries, so there probably is an English terminology for it, but I haven't quite figured it out). I guess I could ask at WP:Politics or WP:Elections, but I somehow feel it might be easier to get comprehensive answers and discussions on linguistic issues in a forum particularly dedicated to it, where users with specific interest and skills in that area would hopefully turn up. In general, when I write about Norwegian issues, there are many concepts that don't have an exact equivalent in English-speaking countries, so it might be useful to have a place to discuss the best way to name and describe those issues in English. I imagine this may be similar for people from many other language areas and also that users with English as their first language might have some use of a forum to raise questions about terminology, grammar etc. Thoughts? Regards, Iselilja (talk) 16:26, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

This forum already exists: WP:Reference desk/Language, but I think it should be divided by languages or language families. For example, I’d willingly read all East Slavic-related topics, but I am reluctant to read the language reference desk entirely: I’m not a linguist. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 18:03, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Thank you, I wasn't aware of that forum. Seems pretty much what I was looking for I guess the problem with splitting it into different language families might be the risk that each forum will get little activity, so one would have to consider pros and cons there. Regards, Iselilja (talk) 18:29, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Reference desk has an interlanguage link to no:Wikipedia:Orakelet. See also Biblioteksvar and Bank of Happiness.

—Wavelength (talk) 19:02, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Fun ways for WP development

1) 'Main page bingo'

Similar to 'political bingo' - a list of topics that could appear on the main page (possibly by theme/Category) and 'the participant' has to see how soon they appear on the MP ('cheating by developing relevant articles' encouraged). (Discussion now 'somewhere on the MP Talk page archives.)

2) 'Top 50'

'User contributions' show which changes to articles have not been superceded by subsequent amendments.

The aim is to get all 50 most recent changes to be 'current entries' (and primarily useful changes). Jackiespeel (talk) 22:05, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

I guess you should explain why do you think such "games" would be beneficial... At the moment I do not see why someone who likes editing Wikipedia could be expected to find them significantly more fun than, well, just editing Wikipedia... And I don't see why we should try to attract someone who does not like editing Wikipedia by such "games"... --Martynas Patasius (talk) 23:59, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Developing WP (or the Wikiverse in general) can be an entertainment/a way of recording information not of immediate use but of interest generally/serve a range of other functions. However 'some people' are likely to enjoy the challenge (especially as there can be a strategy component - which may lead to a number of obscure articles being developed) - as with 'getting to all metro stations in the shortest time'. Connect Four and similar amusements. Jackiespeel (talk) 16:32, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Please restructure Wikipedia navigation!

I've been editing on and off since 2007 and more intensely (with an unregistered account) for the past few months. And my primary frustrating is locating reference pages on Wikipedia itself. You can't use search for "Wikipedia Templates" because it will just give you a list of Wikipedia articles that happen to mention templates.

Another example: I wanted to know how to create a new category page. I searched for Categories but, of course, that doesn't give results from Wikipedia policy or help pages (and there are no links to internal Wiki pages either on the left menu or bottom menu of the page frame). I finally found myself among pages about Categories and they were assigned to many other parent categories...that's right, some of the pages ON categories and categorization aren't assigned to the category "Categories". They are all over the place.

There are lots of pages on the nuances of assigning categories to articles, proposing a category for deletion, special considerations for WP:EGRS, pages (several) with big boxes listing links to different aspects of categories. But I never found the information I needed, how to create a new category page. It led me to post this query on several Talk Pages on articles about, yes, categories. I would have spent more days looking for that information but a friendly user provided a direct link, otherwise, I might never have found it.

My point? It's extremely difficult to find information on articles or forums about Wikipedia itself. The first place a user who is unfamiliar with Wikipedia to go to should be the Help page. But someone who has edited for years should be able to do a simple search and get a search result that provides a page that is related to the query.

One of the worst areas is conflict resolutions. There must be over a dozen (two dozen?) different Wikipedia forums to go to if you need to report bad behavior, a editing conflict, propose a deletion or merger, object to an Admin decision, whatever question you have that needs feedback. Finding your way through the noticeboard morass is bewildering, there are different rules for each forum, different ways of formatting. There even duplicates of forums where you can go to a variety of places to resolve a particular problem.

Only the most die-hard editors will persist in figuring out how to make a proposal in the acceptable way. It is confusing to find the right place to seek a solution and it's confusing to have such a wide variety of ways of formatting proposals (from straight text to technical listings of "diffs" and such). This is intimidating and is not user-friendly. What you get is a small group of experts who know how to work the system...this is not bad in itself but it means you are hearing from a very tiny subset of editors which represent a small group of opinions on what is appropriate on Wikipedia.

I have obviously brought up a number of different issues (which is why this is in the Idea Lab and not Proposals). But the thread that holds them all together is that it is very hard to get into the section of Wikipedia which has information on how it works and very hard to find what you are looking for once you stumble into that area. Often, for instance, I create to a random link (like WP:NOTHERE) on my Talk Page just as a way to get into the back door and then I can search for the right policy page, noticeboard, essay or WikiProject page from that page.

While a lot of effort is spent getting Wikipedia articles correctly edited and organized, the "back office" portion of the Wikipedia site is just a mess and needs an overhaul based on simple organizational principles. The way it exists right now, it seems like the whole area has built up by accretion...people keep adding pages (which try to include some interlinking) on top of each other, throwing more bricks on top of the pile and the underlying structure is never adapted to accommodate through expansion.

I realize that this could be a huge undertaking but I just wanted to share my frustration after spending weeks wandering noticeboard debates, policy articles and help pages. I found some very useful information but it was completely by accident. One big improvement would be if Wikipedia policy pages and such appeared in Search Results.

Well, this is much longer than I expected. I'm sure people will find reasons for why things are the confusing way things are, offer suggestions on how I could have found things more quickly, in general, address my own situation rather than considering the bigger issue - how navigation around the Wikipedia "back office" could be made simpler for nonexpert users. Please, this is not a posting asking for help and for solutions to my problems. It's suggesting that Wikipedia internal navigation is confusing and unclear and could stand to be improved. Newjerseyliz (talk) 18:44, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

P.S. Another quick example: I need to find a way to archive comments on an article Talk Page. Do you know how many hours I spent trying to find a solution to that common problem? Even when I found the right "bot" that would take care of it and located the right template, I'm still not sure I did it correctly. Argh! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Newjerseyliz (talk • contribs) 18:53, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Hey Liz. I am not responding to your post entire, just one quick tip. The gateway to finding the most prominent page of just about any process, thing in the interface, feature, etc. you know the name of is to simply type Wikipedia:Name of the thing (WP, is interpreted the same by the software as Wikipedia so you can also type WP:Name of the thing). For example, categories? WP:Categories. That page, of course, does describe how to create them. Archiving? WP:Archiving. Redirects? red links? notability? deletion? wikiprojects? templates? tables?: WP:Redirects, WP:red links, WP:notability, WP:deletion, WP:wikiprojects, WP:templates, WP:tables and so on. Usually that "parent" page will either tell you what other pages are also relevant in its text or in a see also section. By the way, I think you might find this page useful the next time you are looking for something: Wikipedia:Editor's index to Wikipedia. Cheers.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 03:26, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, Fuhghettaboutit, I appreciate the help! Newjerseyliz (talk) 19:50, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Hallo. Yup, we've got a confusing plethora of pages. A few quick answers:

• Go to Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-searchoptions to change the default namespaces that your searches go through. (I check off: Article, Wikipedia, Template, Help. I frequently have to remove the Article namespace, in order to find something I'm looking for. Or add various Talkpage namespaces, in order to find old discussion threads.) No set-up is perfect for everyone, hence it's customizable, and the default is a minimal "Article namespace only".
• You can do the same "try a random shortcut" trick in the searchbox, rather than having to edit your own talkpage. Eg, put "WP:OMGWTFBBQ" into the searchbox, or "WP:CAT", or "WP:GROW". (hmmm, that last one didn't work as I expected it to. But the 1st search result is what I wanted, so close enough. :)
• The Wikipedia:Help Project is trying to organize the indexes to the (policy/guideline/styleguide/project/etc) pages, as well as improve the content of the pages themselves. It's an uphill struggle! As you say, it's all accumulated thru accretion over the years. Lots of duplication and redundancy, but also, a lot of pages that are targeted at different demographics... There are hundreds of edge-cases, and it takes years just to get an idea of the scope of the problem. It is being thought about though.
  • If you don't mind huge pages, the Wikipedia:Editor's index to Wikipedia is one of the most comprehensive, and generally uptodate, compendiums.
• It looks like Redrose64 already helped you get the archivebot working. So that's good :)

Hope that helps. (Edit conflict with Fuhghettaboutit. But I'm amused by how much our replies overlap, so leaving mine as is!) –Quiddity (talk) 03:40, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Well, Quiddity, the archive bot has been a trial and error. Whenever I see an archive box on a User Talk Page, I've cut and pasted the code to my own. I must have redone it 5 or 6 times and I still don't know when or if archiving will happen. This is a pretty new account and my Talk Page isn't very active.

Thanks for your tips, though. Newjerseyliz (talk) 19:50, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

In the Sidebar, we have a link called "Help". When you go there, there is a searchbox to specifically search all those types of pages. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 09:29, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

This did give me an idea btw. I have filed feature request bugzilla:52213. Making help pages searchable from the dropdown of the search box seems like a sensible and unobtrusive idea. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 09:38, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

I just realized, talk, that the left menu does have a "Help" link. But in the case of someone actively editing, I think of the Help Question area as a place for new users to ask basic questions, not as front door into Wikipedia Policy World. Maybe I should feel less reluctant and take my more technical questions there. Most of what I've learned, I've just picked up by seeing what wiki code was used on a similar page to the one I'm working on. Newjerseyliz (talk) 19:50, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

The overarching source of confusion for me is the lack of any sort of coherent organization to anything. It seems like everywhere you turn when trying to get answers, you run into another portal or template or whossit or whatssit. There seem to be scores of layers of bureaucracy each with its own logos and chat boards and stuff. There is nothing intuitive about the structure of Wikipedia or its background machinery at all.ProfReader (talk) 03:11, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

I know exactly what you mean, ProfReader. There are different places to go to suggest articles for deletion, categories for deletion, different noticeboards on specific topics, then there are ANIs, RfCs, Dispute Resolution and ArbCom plus some disputes are settled on Talk Pages (both Article Talk Pages and User Talk Pages). If you're having a disagreement with another editor or admin, it's not clear where to go. I saw one problem I thought was really bad with an article, posted a query on a noticeboard that seemed appropriate and one the responders said it was better addressed on a different noticeboard. So, I posted it all over again there but I can now see someone saying that I'm "forum shopping".

Really, I would like to make Wikipedia a dare to draw up an organizational chart that was so complete, I could pose a question ("What should I do if an article needs more up-to-date references?" or "This editor acts like he owns this article") and they could point at one place on the chart and say, "Here's where you'll find an answer." And, of course, that page would have an appropriate title and be cross-linked and cross-categorized. Do you think this already exists, somewhere? Newjerseyliz (talk) 19:50, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

12 years of organic growth from thousands of volunteers, with occasional attempts to impose order on a segment of the most important pages = "lack of any sort of coherent organization" and "layers of bureaucracy" and "everywhere [...] another portal or template or whossit or whatssit". Yup! Indeed. So it goes. –Quiddity (talk) 05:12, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, Quiddity, I'm sure I am not saying anything new or revolutionary. And I'm sure that whomever works at Wikipedia or has a long-term view is aware of this problem. I just think it can't hurt for another lowly editor to come to the Village Pump and say, "Why can't I ever find anything on the Wikipedia policy pages?" Newjerseyliz (talk) 19:50, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Well, there is a basically coherent structure of organization. It's just not one that's ideally useful. So, for example, Category: pages are 100% pages that are categories, and it's strictly enforced. This is coherent organization, but it's not useful, if what you need is something about categories. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:39, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Well, I could have sworn that I found "Category" pages that were not linked to the major Category category, WhatamIdoing. It's a surprise to me that there are organizational category/link enforcers. Is this an actual team of users or just ad-hoc members who have set about this as a task? Newjerseyliz (talk) 19:50, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

No, there are no groups of enforcers. In this case, the difference between a category and an article is enforced in software: pages that begin with the WP:Namespace of Category: are not the same kinds of pages. Look at Category:Unassessed medicine articles to see what I mean (that's a category for a behind-the-scenes organizational project). WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:23, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback, everyone. I was afraid to post this because I thought I'd get a lot of comments like, "Everything fine, it's YOU who don't know where to find things."....can you tell I've been spending a lot of time on dispute forums where everyone insults each other? You quickly find out who the squeaky wheels are but it's more of a sign of what doesn't work that what does.

So, here I am, being very active on Wikipedia for a couple months and if I needed to find a article template (for NPOV or need more references tag) I'd have to open up advanced search (which you don't know is there unless you CAN'T find something), uncheck "Articles", check "Wikipedia" and search for "article page templates" and look through the search results. But if I didn't know the right words to search for or that there was an Advanced Search, I'd never find that page. By the way, I still have to do this every single time because I don't have all of the tags memorized.

This long, long post just comes from hours and hours searching for the right Help/Policy/Noticeboard/Forum/Project page. I have probably spent as much time looking for the right information or the right place to post as I have actually editing Wikipedia. There must be an easier way. Right? I guess the next step is to have an actual proposal? Newjerseyliz (talk) 19:26, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

@Newjerseyliz: I'm sorry to post a second time just about one thing you said, but about article templates, and templates in general, the parent page of how they work / what they are is WP:Template, but the page you want to launch from to find ones to use is WP:Template Messages (WP:TM). Best regards--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 22:45, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Permanent link to individual reference desk questions

Currently in the reference desk, when a user asks a question, it appears as a contribution in their 'contributions' page, however the link placed in the contributions page is a link to the reference desk page in which the question was asked and not to the specific days' particular question. After a few days question will get archived and following the link from the 'contributions' the user can no longer reach their question. Finding the question once it has fallen into the archive involves searching, which may be tricky and time consuming.

The root cause of the problem is that there is no way to get a unique permanent link to a particular question asked on a particular day on a particular reference desk page. A lot many interesting questions are asked in the reference desks and there should be a mechanism to unambiguously link to particular question with a permanent link.

see the discussion on this topic here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Reference_desk/Archive_100#Permanent_link_to_reference_desk_questions

cheers, Gulielmus estavius (talk) 14:13, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

This will be solved, possibly next year, by WP:Flow. Flow will give you a permanent link to all discussions (at least, all the ones in Flow) and make it possible to watch a single discussion instead of (for example) the entire Help Desk. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:40, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

• I'm not sure this would at all be desirable. People may not understand that whatever they ask (including potentially embarassing stuff) is preserved eternally. I wouldn't want, say, a permanent public searchable online archive of every question I asked my teachers/professors in my school days. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 04:14, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Proposal to merge Idea Lab to Proposals

• Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)#Let's merge the idea lab to this pump.

There is currently a proposal at WP:VPR to merge the Idea Lab to Proposals, in case anyone wants to weigh in. Equazcion ^(talk) 21:13, 1 Aug 2013 (UTC)

Dispute resolution noticeboard—a pointless bureaucracy

A quick survey of that page indicates that it's nothing more than a bureaucratic form of continuing talk page discussions; I see most of the threads are closed as "unresolved". Someone not using his real name (talk) 21:36, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

There's no way I could possibly agree more. The most amusing part about it is the long-held stance that DRN is "informal", when it's actually quite formal. What they mean to convey is that no one has authority there to draw authoritative conclusions, any more than people on a talk page do. In other words, the word they're looking for is "impotent". One of the reasons I'm officially retired is that there really is no way to resolve disputes on Wikipedia. Equazcion ^(talk) 21:51, 1 Aug 2013 (UTC)

Suggestion for Automatic sum of elements in table

It would be great if the Wikitable class could be extended to power statistical analysis (SUM, MAX, MIN, etc). How do we go about making that happen?--Graham Proud (talk) 12:39, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

I think you would need a new table "type" (like "sortable"). If people are interested in this, then we could file a 'bug' report at Bugzilla to request it. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 18:35, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Newer or improved page watch system

Hello. So when I started using wikipedia I was surprised that the watch page button was the only option I had to essentially bookmark pages with.

Honestly it's not effective in allowing a wikipedia user to bookmark items. It's an un-arrangable list of pages that are stacked at a maximum of one columns. In essence, without using the browser's in-built bookmarking system, it's rather impossible to save pages or anything. Even on android phones one can bookmark pages, however the website version only allows for watchlisting.

I think it's imperative that the watchlist function should at least be improved, replaced, or just to make a separate favorite or bookmark option with a reasonably usable gui. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cowgoesmoo2 (talk • contribs) 07:52, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

I think you need elaborate your suggestion in detail:

• Are your regarding to the Wikipedia App or WP in general?
• Which feature do you miss the most? I suggest that the abilitiy to categorize watch pages would help a little. Mateng (talk) 09:35, 4 August 2013 (UTC)