Talk:Chelsea Manning

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Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request is the initial move of the article to "Chelsea Manning" is reverted, returning the article to the original title, "Bradley Manning.

The panel of administrators convened to review and close this discussion has unanimously reached the following determinations regarding this requested move:

1. The title of the page prior to the events in dispute was "Bradley Manning"; this was a long-term, stable title, and the brief and limited discussion prior to the initial page move to "Chelsea Manning" does not constitute the formation of community consensus to move the page. Therefore, the default title of the page absent a consensus to move the page is "Bradley Manning".
2. The discussion following the move request provided a clear absence of consensus for the page to be moved from "Bradley Manning" to "Chelsea Manning".
3. WP:BLP is applicable to article titles and the desire to avoid harming the subject presents a reasonable basis for supporting "Chelsea Manning" as the title; however, BLP does not require having "Chelsea Manning" as the title. It is not a BLP violation to maintain the title at "Bradley Manning" so long as the prior use of this name by the subject is public knowledge and can be found in reliable sources. Furthermore, the application of BLP to avoid harming the subject is mitigated by the subject's own acknowledgment that "Bradley Manning" will continue to be used in various fora, and by the fact that the name, "Bradley Manning", will inevitably appear prominently in the article lede. Therefore, BLP is not a basis to move the article in the clear absence of a consensus in favor of titling the article, "Chelsea Manning".
4. MOS:IDENTITY is not expressly applicable to article titles, and is therefore not a basis to move the article in the clear absence of a consensus in favor of titling the article, "Chelsea Manning".. The panel acknowledges that MOS:IDENTITY is applicable to pronouns as used in the article, and that the reversion of this title in no way implies that the subject should be addressed in the article by masculine pronouns. Although some may perceive this as leading to incongruity between the subject's name and the pronouns used throughout the article, such incongruity appears in numerous articles about subjects whose common name appears to differ from their gender.
5. WP:COMMONNAME remains the basic principle by which article titles are chosen. This policy provides several factors which are weighed in the determination of a proper article title. In the requested move discussion, a number of editors noted that "Bradley Manning" was the name under which the subject became notable and performed the actions which led to her notability; and that readers interested in these actions would be likely to search for this subject under the name, "Bradley Manning". Competing examples were provided of some reliable sources changing their usage, while some retained their previous usage. The change that did occur was not sufficient to persuade the majority of editors, including some who indicated that their minds could be changed by sufficient evidence of changed usage. Although WP:COMMONAME provides that "more weight should be given to the name used in reliable sources published after the name change", it does not provide that no weight should be given to reliable sources published before the name change. The total mass of sources is weighted towards "Bradley Manning", and it is too soon to determine whether usage following the subject's announced name change represent an enduring trend, or a blip occasioned by reports in the news surrounding the name change itself.
6. A comparatively small number of editors premised their opinions solely on Manning's legal or biological state. These arguments are not based on anything in Wikipedia's policies, and are contrary to numerous precedents. Such arguments were expressly discounted in this determination.
7. A number of editors who supported reverting the title back to "Bradley Manning" also expressed the opinion that the common name of the subject is likely to change over a relatively short time span, this close is without prejudice to a new proposal to move the page to "Chelsea Manning" being initiated no less than thirty days^* from the date of this determination, at which point those advocating the move of this page will be able to present all evidence that may arise during that time demonstrating a change in the common name of this subject as used by reliable sources. In the interim, editors may propose moving the page to a compromise title such as "Private Manning" or "Bradley (Chelsea) Manning".

^* The sole point as to which the closing administrators were not unanimous was the length of time that should be required to pass before a new move request to "Chelsea Manning" is proposed; one member of the panel would have required ninety days.

This was by no means an easy process, and the closing administrators recognize that any conclusion to this discussion would engender further controversy; however, we are in agreement that this result is the only proper interpretation of the discussion conducted with respect to this dispute. bd2412 T 03:50, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

---

Note: After carefully considering the proposal made on my talk page, I have moved this discussion to: Talk:Chelsea Manning/August 2013 move request.

This move serves two purposes. First, it reduces the massive size of this talk page (the move discussion is well over 500,000 bytes). Second, it makes it very clear that the discussion has concluded, and further comments are to be made elsewhere. Cheers! bd2412 T 16:03, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Note the panel is (BD2412 (talk · contribs), BOZ (talk · contribs), Kww (talk · contribs)) NE Ent 13:48, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Adding a future date so this doesn't get auto-archived. 23:59, 30 September 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sportfan5000 (talk • contribs)

In the future you can use {{DNAU}} for that. NE Ent 13:48, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Pronouns

Further information: MOS:IDENTITY

Weight given to Manning's request regarding pronoun usage

On 26 August, 2013, David Edward Coombs (Chelsea Manning's attorney) released a statement:

"[...] she also expects that the name Bradley Manning and the male pronoun will continue to be used in certain instances."

This has been properly identified by many above not as an expression of her personal desire, but more of a realization of the reality of the situation.

However, on 27 August 2013, SlimVirgin reported receiving an email from David Coombs, and stated that,

"Regarding the pronoun, he [David Coombs] wrote that the female pronoun should be used only for post-announcement material. I also asked about the current main photograph, and he said that Chelsea is proud of the photograph and would want it to be used until a better one becomes available."

Should weight be given to Manning's request, with male pronouns used for pre-announcement material, or do we follow WP:IDENTITY's guideline of retroactively applying female pronouns, in opposition to her request? -- ToE 21:14, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Modify IDENTITY because it's stupid.Two kinds of pork (talk) 21:55, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Not really, as we don't really give weight to someone's request to hide their date of birth when it's gained through verifiable and reliable information. We might remove the date, but nothing else. Same thing for Bradley Manning. While he's legally, biologically and verifiably male, he's called Bradley. Should he decide to go Christine Jorgenson, then by all means, once verifiable, we then refer to her ad Chelsea  KoshVorlon. We are all Kosh ...  12:49, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Modify MOS:IDENTITY because it was crafted by about 5 editors, whereas about 500 editors have commented here. Funny how as these common sense statements come out of Manning and her lawyer, that all the "UR TRANSPHOBIC" crowd have gone silent. Don't forget that MOS;IDENTITY says we should identify them as they request... but now that it counters the advocacy position, we should ignore the request and get on board the transgendered express. - Floydian ^τ _¢ 17:06, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Toss MOS:IDENTITY because it's a POV push by 5 editors . which violates BLP and V  KoshVorlon. We are all Kosh ...  19:46, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Please see this letter dated September 3, 2013 by Coombs: [1]. Note the use of male pronouns. While using the name "Bradley" once (and never "Chelsea"), Coombs continues to use male pronouns post press-release. There was no reason to do this yet he did. An argument could be made as to using "Bradley" in the correspondence as that is his official legal name but there is no official pronoun. This is going to continue and for WP to change the article underneath statements after the press release is problematic. Did "Chelsea Manning" request her pardon, or did "Bradley Manning" request his pardon? The obvious answer is "Bradley Manning" is name that is associated with notability and it will obviously continue as such in the future. Gender pronouns are up for debate but I would lean toward female. The article title though should obviously remain "Bradley Manning" as notability will continue under this name. --DHeyward (talk) 17:30, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

My understanding is that Manning's lawyer _has_ to use "Bradley" as the military will not recognize a change of gender identity or a change of pronouns. They also have stated a refusal to start hormone replacement therapy although a lawsuit may be started for any and all of these. But presently until forced to the only way they will "hear" anything is if it addresses Manning as "Bradley". Additionally I think Manning won't get any mail unless it is addressed to her in the male pronoun form and as "Bradley". Sportfan5000 (talk) 17:44, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Do you have a source for use of pronouns in correspondence to the Office of Pardons? This wasn't addressed to Manning in the confinement barracks. It wasn't addressed to the military. Are we going to say that the President would refuse to pardon Manning if his lawyer referred to Manning as "she" instead of "he" in the pardon application? --DHeyward (talk) 17:52, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

The media itself reported on the fact that the letter used "Bradley" and "he". I think they were simply trying to not confuse matters, Obama receives a lot of mail. This is a complex and delicate situation and Manning's team is trying to navigate it as best they can, I don't think this one letter is determining of anything much at all.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 18:11, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Why would we confuse matters then? Do you really think this would confuse the President and he would be unable to grasp transgender identity or is it that the common name and gender argument have weight that is seen by Manning and Manning's attorneys? The statement and signature by Manning is understandable (first person, legal name). The cover letter by Coombs, though, has no reason other than common reference and usage, to use the name and gender that he did. Coombs is not transphobic. His cover letter is not transphobic. Coombs letter though does give weight to keeping the article consistent with past and undoubtedley future filings which will bear the name "Bradley Manning." Feminine pronouns, despite the argument that it would confuse the President, should probably be kept in the article but the name of the article should reflect the record of note which will continue to be "Bradley Manning." --DHeyward (talk) 18:30, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

The president is the leader of the military, he is also likely getting tons of letters on this issue using both names. Manning's legal defense wants their message heard, they are trying to get movement from a hostile audience. Do you have any evidence that he is not just working within the constructs of the system? Sportfan5000 (talk) 18:48, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

This wasn't mail to the confinement facility. Once again, do you really think the President would be confused by using "she" instead of "he?" Do you think the President is a hostile audience to trans-women? Do you really think the reason for rejecting the pardon would be the use of (in)correct gender pronouns? Like Manning's lawyers, we should keep it as simple as possible. I think female-gender pronouns are appropriate in the article, unlike Mr. Coombs. But like Mr. Coombs, the title should remain "Bradley Manning" for the same reasons that Mr. Coombs uses "Bradley Manning." --DHeyward (talk) 19:01, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

I think President Obama is much smarter than your question implies. Mr. Coombs relayed a specific answer to a specific question based on the circumstances at that moment, things have changed, and we have no idea about the overall legal strategy. The article title is simply wrong and you are giving way too much weight to documents that are part of a larger legal effort. Sportfan5000 (talk) 19:09, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Things have changed since 9/3? That's when Coombs used "he" exclusively to refer to Manning in his cover letter. You are confusing Manning's statement and Coomb's comment about using "Bradley" instead of "Chelsea." I am talking specifically about the cover letter Coombs wrote 2 days ago. Nothing has changed in 2 days. That letter was written after Manning said to use female-gender terms. What larger, overall picture are we to draw that required that Coombs use "he" to refer to Manning other than it's clear they will continue to use masculine pronouns and will continue to use "Bradley?" Are you implying we should use "he" and "Bradley" as if the legal name implied his gender identity?? Like I said, earlier, the proper name may make sense (whence the article title should remain "Bradley Manning") but Coombs continued use of "he" is rather inexplicable. Why would we not at least follow their example? --DHeyward (talk) 20:43, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

"I also request that, starting today, you refer to me by my new name and use the feminine pronoun (except in official mail to the confinement facility)." The Sylvia Rivera Law Project outlined some gender non-conformity abuses: "Not only do transgender people in prison have problems accessing healthcare, but they experience a heightened level of gender policing. The clothing they wear, their hairstyles and grooming practices, their bodies, mannerisms and identities are scrutinized and controlled by the state. Any deviance from norms can lead to violence at the hands of corrections officers or other people who are incarcerated. Legal “protections” are hard to access as there is little accountability on the inside.

"..in the civil system, Chung said, courts have decided that not providing hormone therapy to inmates is cruel and unusual punishment, the same isn't so of the military. Court House News Service spoke to Kimberly Lewis, a spokeswoman at Ft. Leavenworth, who said that while Manning will have access to a psychiatrist and psychologist, the Army "does not provide hormone therapy or sex-reassignment surgery for gender identity disorder.""; "like they do for people suffering with asthma, the military has medical regulations that list being a "transexual" as an "unallowable medical condition."" The Washington Post reports that in a 2011 memo, the U.S Bureau of Prisons directed wardens to allow inmates seeking hormone replacement therapy to undergo an assessment. The protocol for military prisons is uncertain. Even in some state prisons, the paper reports, "transgender inmates have been denied the right to be housed with their desired gender and given hormone therapy."

This is also a physical and mental health issue and no statements about either are likely forthcoming arriving Manning unless there is a dramatic change in the present situation. Sportfan5000 (talk) 18:48, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Chelsea Now the Most Famous Transgender Inmate in America

Chelsea Manning Is Now the Most Famous Transgender Inmate in America. Will She Be Treated Humanely? Slate.com. By Amanda Hess | Posted Thursday, Aug. 22, 2013.

I think she may be one of the most famous trans women in the world as well. Sportfan5000 (talk) 22:47, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

At the present time you'd have a hard job demonstrating she isn't the highest profile trans* person in the world. How this plays out long term we can't yet know, but it wouldn't surprise me if she remains in the top 10 for a long while. Thryduulf (talk) 23:41, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Which one article provides more excuses to push a political agenda to the foreground rather than reflect what the person is best known for? User:Carolmooredc 12:23, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand your question. A person can be notable for many things and the trans issues simply are making everyone take pause while some on the religious right go apoplectic because OMG someone is changing their gender identity. Luckily the rest of the world is moving away from those tired views and Wikipedia can simply focus on what reliable sources bring forward. i think she is a major trans celebrity and newsrooms will soon be educating the world on more what it weans to transition and the legal hurdles one faces. Sportfan5000 (talk) 03:33, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Okay a "major trans celebrity"? Come on now enough of the personal opinions already. Also what you are saying is WP:CRYSTAL anyways, Manning was more notable as Bradley this is proven by the fact that books have been written about him, as well as the majority of sources that followed the trial. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:37, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

I don't appreciate the snide remarks and these aren't just my opinions these are how the rest of the world is moving progressively forward. Gay marriage means that Chelsea can marry the man or woman she chooses, this was simply not true even a few years ago. Chelsea is a transwoman and of course a celebrity, the article points out she is the most famous transgender inmate. Your disagreement is with Slate.com. Sportfan5000 (talk) 03:45, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Again they are more of your personal opinions, come to think of it what does this have to do with improving the article if anything? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:50, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Your lack of apology is noted. Again facts are not the same as my opinions although my opinions are rooted in factual evidence. As for the article I think we should reflect that when Chelsea came out s a transwoman she became a highly visible member of the trans community and the most famous transgender inmate in the U.S. Sportfan5000 (talk) 09:33, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but Bradley Chelsea Manning is not the most famous transgender inmate in the U.S because ONE magazine article states that. And it wouldn't improve the article anyway. BeckiGreen (talk) 20:21, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

I follow what the sources state and i have little doubt that more will write on her influence in shaping mainstream US ideas on what transgenderism is. I do disagree, of course, that a good article would discuss this. Sportfan5000 (talk) 22:07, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

(sorry about the earlier ec) Some are already writing about her, Michael Silverman, Executive Director of the Transgender Legal Defense and Education Fund said this; "...Manning may not be the best figure to be the one to help educate the public on trans issues."[2]. Kristin Beck, a former Navy Seal who came out as transgender in June, issued a blistering statement against Manning; [3]Susan Estrich was also highly critical of Manning;[4]. Brynn Tannehill, Director of Advocacy at SPART*A said; “If you’re wondering if she’s being embraced as a hero in the military trans community, she is absolutely not.”[5]. Time will tell if she was a positive or negative influence.-- Isaidnoway (talk) 23:10, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Another one detailing the connection:

• Chelsea Manning's Gender Transition Could Set Military Precedent

Related:

• ACLU: Denying Chelsea Manning Hormone Therapy May Violate Constitutional Rights

Sportfan5000 (talk) 01:02, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

• Mannings requests puts spotlight on being transgender in America How Will the Military Handle Bradley Manning's Request to Be 'Chelsea'? (PBS) . Sportfan5000 (talk) 02:31, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

In hindsight, I think this will fade. Manning blamed gender identity disorder for crimes committed including assaulting a female superior, leaking documents and being emotionally unstable. Making Manning a transgender celebrity brings attention to it, but the end result will be if the Army does recognize it and treat it, they will tie the diagnosis to the experience they had with Manning. Will all military personnel diagnosed with GID/GD lose their security clearance because of the emotional liability and turmoil that Manning exhibited? The law of unintended consequences is very much in play. Manning may bring transgender issues to front page but the end result may not serve the LGBT community very well. The collision of progressive LGBT causes and progressive causes supporting the leaking of the classified documents might turn into a train wreck. --DHeyward (talk) 20:40, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

I disagree. BTW, where did manning blame transgenderism for anything? I think I missed that. Sportfan5000 (talk) 01:06, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Per WP:PEACOCK I do not think this is helpful. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 17:02, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

I agree. It's no, more or less, true or relevant than saying Manning is the world's most famous transgender female named Chelsea. It's an Ignoratio elenchi; much more about advocacy than improving this article. Unfortunately, I've seen it before, too often. And it does affect credibility for the side advocating—in my opinion (practically meaningless). :) John Cline (talk) 17:30, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

If you'll read the peacock guide it states "without attribution" which is not applicable in this case. The source calls her that. And nothing has been entered into the article anyway. Sportfan5000 (talk) 20:23, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Chelsea Manning puts transgender issues in the spotlight Callous Conservative Response to Chelsea Manning News Could Be Just the Beginning - "as Americans become more and more tolerant of the idea of LGBT equality, including marriage equality, transgender people are starting to become one of the last “safer” targets for right-wing vilification" I'm not sure it's quite as cut and dry is this but the examples given there do support a certain amount of bigotry. Sportfan5000 (talk) 22:20, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Slate is a far left-wing publication that appears to often vilify those who do not agree with them. So this is no surprise. CaseyPenk (talk) 03:11, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia may be wrong but instead of far-left Slate.com seems only to be known for contrarian positions. Sportfan5000 (talk) 01:42, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

"Chelsea Manning gets put back in the closet by Wikipedia" "That distinction hasn't gone down particularly well in the wider world, where fact that a group of people held a vote on whether or not to call a trans woman by her preferred name, and then lost that vote, is seen as yet more evidence of a painful lack of diversity of experience amongst active Wikipedia editors."

For evidence for next move discussion - gender identity changes on Wikipedia

Has anyone compiled the list of Wikipedia articles where someone has changed gender? Are there any cases where we don't honor the person's gender identity change? Sportfan5000 (talk) 21:44, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Category:Transgender and transsexual people might be helpful in finding other articles on people who transitioned while already having a wp bio. Josh Gorand (talk) 21:49, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

I've wondered whether or not we should add a "precedent" section to the list of move requestion rationales. I think it could be helpful, because (as bd2412 has mentioned) consistency is important in article naming. I only held off on suggesting it for WP:BEANS-related reasons. -sche (talk) 21:57, 3 September 2013 (UTC) comment edited to remove suggestion that people stuff beans up their noses -sche (talk) 22:55, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Well if we keep the focus narrow - only living people, who express a change of gender with a name change, wouldn't that list shrink down enough? Sportfan5000 (talk) 22:01, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Sure. I think it would be helpful to the RM to have such a list. -sche (talk) 22:55, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

I don't think this is a good idea and goes into "What about article ..." not every article is the same or has been handled the same. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 22:03, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

What evidence are you basing your assumption on? How would we know if we don't even look? Sportfan5000 (talk) 22:12, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Im going by WP:OTHERSTUFF, it may be a deletion essay but does have a point. More factors are involved as well, how did the sources handle the change at the time? Did they all switch over or did some of them switch over? Was the subject at the height of his/her notability when the announcement was made or were they largely faded out? These are questions that come into light in support of each case being different. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 22:18, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

That's why a narrower focus helps limit the grey areas. Do you have an example of any Wikipedia article besides this one where we don't respect someone's change of gender identity? I haven't found one yet. Sportfan5000 (talk) 22:23, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Let's be fair and specify that we are talking about article titles here. Because it appears that the content in the body of the article is being respectful to her and following MOS:IDENTITY.-- Isaidnoway (talk) 22:50, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Of course. Sportfan5000 (talk) 01:57, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

I can't find cases where we didn't honor a gender identity change, but I think that Cat Stevens could provide some guidance here. We refer to the singer as "Stevens" before his religious conversion, and "Yusuf" afterwards. Edge3 (talk) 01:06, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Although MOS:IDENTITY treats cases with transgender subjects separately than other cases, I would note that Metta World Peace uses his preferred name for the title but refers to him using Ron Artest up until his name change. CaseyPenk (talk) 02:57, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Also, part of the reason we have so few comparison cases is that (1) there are relatively few transgender people and (2) most do not announce a name change after their notability has peaked (in this case, Manning's notability has probably peaked and coverage in reliable sources is likely to dry up while she is prison - so we'll have something of a dearth of new sources for a few years at least). CaseyPenk (talk) 03:02, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm looking for only gender identity cases, how does Wikipedia treat all of them. The point being is this is likely the only case we are treating this way. Sportfan5000 (talk) 01:57, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

I suspect that it's because this is the first article on a transgender person who is moderately/very famous. As such, a lot more people participated in the discussion and unlike other articles on transgender people, the LGBT project wasn't able to decide on the title by themselves. 2.102.186.231 (talk) 13:10, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

I don't see any discussion on the LGBT group page, just a link to other discussions. Sportfan5000 (talk) 18:49, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Musings upon failure

A critical mass of editors just cannot grasp, or will not agree, that not calling Chelsea by her chosen name, in the face of her expressed wish, is wrong. New Statesman's Alex Hern seems to have it right with regard to many an anti-Chelsea editor here: "not just a transphobe, but a stupid transphobe". Herr Gerard was being most generous when he said it was "transphobia from ignorance". I wonder how many of the anti-Chelseas are feeling hot under the collar now people in the media are calling them out as "not just transphobes, but stupid transphobes"? Perhaps some of them are now aware, not too far below the surface, that they were in the wrong, but are just too arrogant or narcissistic to admit it. God help you.

I believe too much blame is being put on WPs, that WPs are the whipping boy for an ignorant critical-mass of editors. This episode serves to reveal the pervasiveness of ignorance and intolerance pertaining to sex and gender generally, and to trans people in particular.

Not to call her by the name of Chelsea is obviously wrong (to someone who isn't ignorant or intolerant); thus, if "the sources" don't do so, we can ignore them. For example, if "the sources" switched to calling Jews Stücken, we would not follow the sources. So "the sources" are not inerrant, do not straitjacket us.

Here enters the critical mass of ignorance and transphobia: too many people either see no problem with titling the page Bradley Manning, in contravention of Chelsea's explicit wish, so long as enough ignorant journalists refuse to conform to said wish, or else are aggressively transphobic. When you have consensus-based policy, and these two groups form a sufficiently large proportion of the whole, you get the outcome we now have: the right thing to do cannot be done because too many people are in the wrong. An analogous outcome would present in the case of a sufficiently large number of "weak" and "strong" antisemites where "the sources" start using Stücken: you would have "weak" antisemites (either out of ignorance or whatever) who would have no problem with retitling a page Stücken (got to follow the sources!!), and "strong" antisemites who see no problem with such a title under any circumstances, sources or otherwise.

What I take away from this dreary chapter in the life of Wikipedia is that applying the site's consensus-based policies to an issue, when a critical mass of editors are either ignorant or calculatedly prejudiced about it, means you get ghastly outcomes that are rightly slaughtered by external observers, like our New Statesman writer, who do not share such ignorance or prejudice. The fundamental issue is the amount of ignorance and active intolerance of all things trans there is out there—and in here.

Shortly, it seems, when enough editors and journalists start doing the right thing, the "passive transphobes" and "inadvertant transphobes" will start following The Sources, and so will move over to the view of people who aren't transphobic, to the view of people who have been advocating the article's move to Chelsea Manning from the get-go. The critical mass that is keeping the article's title as Bradley Manning will thus crumble away, since the only group left not wanting a change will be the "active transphobes", who will not alone be a large enough party to maintain the original consensus.

Shortly, in other words, the Wikipedia policies will crank out the right outcome at last.

WPs not to blame; virulent ignorance and intolerance is to blame. Shame that many are more interested in protesting their innocence than taking the opportunity to have a think and change their mind, learn a lesson, or look in the mirror. As it is, thanks to ignorance and intolerance, we still have WPs girding ignorance and intolerance.

Nothing profound in what I've said. Musings complete. LudicrousTripe (talk) 21:43, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

I wouldn't go that far, there does however seem to be an awful lot of footdragging on the way to a forgone conclusion (assuming the best of everyone and that Wikipedias own guidelines are followed) and it would be best for everyone if we found a way to skip that. Artw (talk) 22:13, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Or, more succinctly, if sources change, then wikipedia changes. Yup, that's pretty much what our LONGSTANDING policies state. What's so wrong with that? Why should wikipedia be ahead of the world? Remember WP:NPOV?

Think about it this way - when we look at advertisements from decades ago, we find them racist and offensive. In the same way, when people 80 years from now look at wikipedia, there will be OODLES of things we say and do and title and write about here, a whole frame of mind that dominates here, that will be considered DEEPLY offensive to our future looker-backers. And you, for all your ludicrous tripe, cannot even see today how much you offend - you are completely blinded by dozens or hundreds of ways of thinking and viewing and categorizing the world that to our future bretheren will seem so completely backwards as to render you - and all of us - as blithering small-minded idiots.

We have a micro-version of the same here. Those on the side of Chelsea are perhaps on the winning side of history, but they were perhaps a bit too early, a bit too eager. News organizations took time to shuffle, many are still confused, pronouns and euphemisms and anxious calls to that one TG person-you-know to find out wtf is going on... It shouldn't surprise you! These things take time. Some outlets made the shift today - almost 2 weeks after the announcement. Some may never shift.

I think rather than taking away from this that consensus is ghastly, you should take away that consensus here doesn't always produce the result a minority may want, even if in their heart of hearts, they are right - but it also doesn't produce a result the majority wants. Consensus often results in a compromise. (e.g. Article title=Bradley, lead=Chelsea, pronouns=female - two out of three aint bad!!)

Democracies have addressed this issue through protection of minority rights, and wikipedia tries to prevent this by editorial policies that protect living people and ask us to adhere to high quality reliable sources vs following our gut instincts, and starting (more recently) to look at issues of systemic bias. If this episode brings more trans editors to wikipedia, all the better - we need more editors. But the constant painting by advocates here and in the media of people who are just trying to reflect sources as transphobic idiots doesn't bring them to your side of the court, it just pushes them away and pisses them off. What do you want in the end? To be righteous, to point fingers and call people names, and feel superior to them because of your evolved conciousness and the fact that you've never once done something offensive to anyone on the planet? Or would you like a world where TG issues are better understood? If so, consider dropping the drama stick, try to see the other side, and explain kindly and gently why you think people should change their minds.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 22:17, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure adverts from decades ago are analogous. The article is titled in a way that is antedeluvian now. Formerip (talk) 22:51, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure the "compromise" is the good thing you're making it out to be... it just underlines how broken the title is. Artw (talk) 23:06, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Try reading some of the news coverage on this. We even have conflicting guidelines from two different LGBT agencies around use of pronouns in the past, and mixed messages from Manning's lawyer on same. Read this story, and imagine the tortured copy editing that went on to craft it: [6] - notice how they avoid pronouns, and introduce her as a soldier in the title, then as Chelsea, formerly known as Bradley, Manning? Like any breaking news story, we are (correctly) playing catchup with reliable sources, we aren't (and shouldn't be) ahead of them. And FormerIP, I think you missed my point.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 23:38, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

We're not playing catch-up. We're playing dumb. Formerip (talk) 23:42, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

It's beginning to seem like it. Certainly I'm not seeing a great argument for resisting the inevitable change to proper title other than we CAN resist the change to the proper title, which at best is a fetishisation of Wikilawyering and at worst actually is the institutional bigotry Wikipedia is accused of. Artw (talk) 23:48, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Artw: the argument is very simple - WP:COMMONNAME. We go by what reliable sources report, and at least a quarter of them, as far as I can tell, currently use "Bradley." We will reconsider this at a later date, since the sources have changed. If we are guilty of perpetuating "institutional bigotry" in this case, there are plenty of other examples. We don't honor Yusuf Islam's preferred name, despite what appears to be an earnest and thoughtful conversion to Islam. We refer to Côte d'Ivoire using a name the government of that country prefers people not to use. The list goes on. What I'm saying is that if you see "institutional bigotry" here, it's going to be in a whole lot of other places, and you may wish to seek policy changes that will steer titles away from that kind of "institutional bigotry" on Wikipedia. I have a proposal on article names that would do something along those lines, explicitly allowing us to use more-preferred names if they're still common in reliable sources. CaseyPenk (talk) 06:48, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Here is the thing... Manning is most notable for his wikileaks story, he will serve years in jail and after time be forgotton about 8 years from now. Now in my opinion I think he did this as a way of grabbing one last bit of media spotlight before going into jail as he had nothing to lose and wanted the world to know that he was trans however if you look at the support in the LGBT community it is split as well here. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 22:23, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

The suggestion that she will be "forgotten" is just wrong. Nobody of that fame is forgotten. Considering the rest of the world considers her a human rights hero of great historical significance, she will remain extremely famous for the rest of her life, receive prizes, give talks, write books, be treated like Soviet dissidents were in the west, and like Liu Xiaobo will be if he is released and makes it to a democratic country. Josh Gorand (talk) 23:06, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Human rights hero? Hardly. The indiscriminate leak of information more likely a big "FU" to a system and society that he never felt a part of.Two kinds of pork (talk) 23:36, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

My problem with this lament is that a critical mass of editors have agreed to call her by her chosen name: The first word of the lead sentence of the article is "Chelsea". That name and the feminine pronoun "she" are used throughout. Her birth name "Bradley" occurs hardly at all.

Yes, it's true, one of the few places the name "Bradley" still appears is in the article's title, but it's a matter of interpretation whether that's the same as calling her Bradley, or disrespecting her wishes, or abusing her, or any of the horrible alleged offenses that some here are so very worried might have occurred since the move was reversed.

The title is arguably wrong, and is quite likely to get fixed again, probably sooner than later, but in the meantime, I don't personally feel that there's any big failure here. —Steve Summit (talk) 22:28, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Another way of looking at that is that the RM close obviously does not reflect community consensus. Formerip (talk) 23:13, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

well, that's obvious - the finding of the close was "no consensus to move". Therefore, it's clear the community is divided here. Just be patient - sheesh! --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 23:34, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

It's outrageous to be labelled as "stupid transphobe" for following Wikipedia policy. Perhaps the journalist you quoted could read our policies on article titles and our process for requested moves before making assumptions about the motivations of editors. CaseyPenk (talk) 23:59, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Meh im not offended by it, if one journalist wants to go ahead and be like that let him/her, you will find that per WP:NOTCENSORED there are alot of things on wikipedia that im sure some group is opposed to. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:03, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Its not like wikipedia actually followed policies by reverting back to Bradley. Thanks, ♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 00:12, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

The reason given in the move request appears to be a direct contradiction of WP:BEBOLD. Artw (talk) 00:26, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Not to mention BLP, NPOV, IDENTITY etc and generally we are treating Manning very differently to how we have treated ALL other notable transgender people we cover. Thanks, ♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 00:34, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

WP:BEBOLD is only the first step in WP:BRD. No amount of boldness circumvents the need for discussion when a proposed action is disputed. bd2412 T 00:36, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

That's exactly my point, although I don't think it came up in the move discussion. For every bold there is a revert. Well, I hope it's not that bleak, but in any case the discussion is essential. You gotta complete the first round of BRD (which we have) before beginning on the second (in which we are currently engaged). BRD is an inflammatory process IMO, which is why I support waiting 30 days. CaseyPenk (talk) 00:46, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

So you're reverting the article with the argument that that it should be done with discussion then blocking it being done through discussion with the argument that discussion has already happened? That's quite the two-step. 174.239.197.31 (talk) 01:15, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

IDENITY is a joke as written. But the activists will fight tooth and nail to keep it as is.Two kinds of pork (talk) 00:39, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Labelling ppl who want 21st Century polices for dealing with transgender as activists? Nope, just concerned wikipedia editors wanting to create a good, informative encyclopedia. Discussion is the one piece of policy we have truly followed here, BD2412. ♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 00:43, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

For better or for worse, a lot of the media still has 1900s era policies in terms of how they report about transgender people. Apparently TNYT used the word "homosexual" in preference to "gay" up until pretty recently.

Part of the irony is that some of these media organizations with such old policies have very progressive editorial boards -- just read an editorial about Romney or abortion or gun control in TNYT. (: So I think the style guidelines may not reflect their actual beliefs about gender -- just as Wikipedia policies do not necessarily indicate "hateful bigotry" on the part of editors. CaseyPenk (talk) 00:58, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

The Manning case is clearly pushing the boundaries on this one, one reason why his transgender statements are so much more notable than some are claiming them to be, IMO. I cant think of any policies that support hateful bigotry though I have unfortunately read some individual editors who clearly do though by no means all who support the Bradley interpretation. Wikipeia is always going to be what its editors make it regardless♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 01:07, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

SqueakBox "Wikipeia is always going to be what its editors make it regardless." Ah, now there you've hit on an interesting point. I do think there's a common thread of unfamiliarity with trans issues among many editors, so people instinctively lean toward the more conservative side on this. I think there's a lot of knee-jerk "I don't know what that is, so the burden of overwhelmingly clear proof is on you." People tend to invoke policy when they feel they need to defend something; in this case, their understanding of gender as it exists so far in their life.

We can contrast the effortless invocation of policy with cases where people are less enthusiastic about bringing up policy. There are times when no one is terribly offended either way, as with the person formerly known as Kate Middleton; in that case, it's sort of a yawner as far as what we call it. In this case, there's a lot of trans-not-understanding (I'd avoid calling it transphobia because that terms serves only to inflame). I do think we're working on learning, myself included, so that when we deal with this sort of situation in the future we'll "make it" something with new considerations in mind. CaseyPenk (talk) 01:25, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Some of these comments are really going into how edirtors personaly feel is there a point to this discussion that is going to improve the article or is this going to be another im right and you are wrong debate? (WP:NOTFORUM) - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:19, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

I think we're having a very civil discussion about what motivates different people to think differently about this topic. At least the people I've been talking with. Ideally, we can learn something so that, when the 30 day RM rolls around, we'll understand one another better and have better guidance on how to proceed. CaseyPenk (talk) 01:25, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

I think the point is that the article is going to be moved to Chelsea Manning soon, so why are we hotly debating whether to treat someone with respect to their gender identity? Being on the right side of history is something to be proud of, shoving Chelsea back into an open closet is not. Sportfan5000 (talk) 01:37, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

If you hope to convince others of your perspective, telling them that they are "shoving Chelsea back into an open closet" is probably not the most persuasive way to do so. CaseyPenk (talk) 01:39, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

But this is how many ppl will see it♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 01:50, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

"Chelsea Manning gets put back in the closet by Wikipedia". Sportfan5000 (talk) 01:53, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Ah, okay, now your comment makes sense. I would note that the post it cites no evidence for the statement that "That distinction hasn't gone down particularly well in the wider world." The problem is that these statements on the part of the media (which trash on Wikipedia editors as a bunch of "savages" and hopeless ignorants -- ironically, sounds oh so familiar) denies the opportunity for editors to learn, grow, adjust, change perspectives, switch sides. Let's reach out to the other side and actually listen to the arguments they're putting forth! CaseyPenk (talk) 02:22, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Many if not most of those arguments boil down to Chelsea is doing something strange that I don't understand - and I already have convicted her in my mind as anti-American - so this is further evidence she is strange and should be destroyed in some way. That be a bit simplistic but that's what I'm generally hearing. The rest is essentially red tape bureaucratic maneuvering to use the system against respecting her gender identity. Instead of looking to how to best serve the readers and subject of the article we're wasting time arguing over her right to come out of the closet as transgender. Sportfan5000 (talk) 02:34, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

"bureaucratic maneuvering" In many cases I agree the bureaucracy is over the line. But a certain justification for the bureaucracy is that it forces us to hold controversial decisions up to light of scrutiny, tossing ideas back and forth and testing our views by fire until we forge a steely and battle-tested compromise. If we had a hyper-inclusive policy on article name we wouldn't give the topic as much thought as we have. CaseyPenk (talk) 03:34, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

My reasoning is that Manning has had more coverage in reliable sources with the name Bradley. Per WP:CRYSTAL however, I can not really make an arguement beyond that but if Manning does not get the pardon from Obama I feel will fade over time in the eyes of the public. As for the LGBT community as there sources point out: [7], [8] seems to be split over the issue. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:00, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Apologies for my interjection, but I'd suggest against weighting LGBT sources more heavily than others on this topic. The community is as riven with politics over these issues as everyone else and there are a fair number of L's and G's who are just actively hostile to the T grouping. Normal service resumes in 3..2..1.. Dolescum (talk) 03:09, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

"there are a fair number of L's and G's who are just actively hostile to the T grouping" Absolutely -- see this blog post for one take on that. I would note that a handful (or maybe it was just one) editor has suggested that we defer to the wishes of the groups themselves on how they want to be reported on -- in this case, defer to GLAAD's media guidelines when reporting on Chelsea. While I don't think we should defer completely to such guidelines, I would consider them highly credibly reliable sources on LGBT topics, albeit dinged in their reliability because of the aforementioned LGB-T clashes, and muddled by the differing advice. In short, I think we should give media guidelines from related communities a fair amount of airtime. CaseyPenk (talk) 03:32, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

How can it be contended here that there was a "failure" to transform the article when it has, in fact, been transformed from top to bottom except for the article name? The very first word is "Chelsea" and it goes from there. Aside from the title "Bradley" gets mention in the article proper just once, as "born Bradley..." That's it. Yes, "Bradley" actually appears more than 80 times if you include sources, but the fact that there could be such an enormous discrepancy between source usage and article usage looks like a major victory against usage of "Bradley" if you ask me.--Brian Dell (talk) 04:19, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Indeed. Undue weight has actually made this article lopsided in the other direction now. Fyunck(click) (talk) 05:55, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

What on earth does Stücken mean? If you want people to follow you, why repeatedly use a word unknown to most English-speakers? Moncrief (talk) 15:17, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

• Name-calling, accusations, and trying to shame others will never, ever, convince them of your position. Try a new tactic.--v/r - TP 15:40, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

If you don't like MOS-TW

get it deleted. It's present on this article because it's really obviously relevant to the article subject. That this is apparently a problem for some editors is not something to be addressed by pretending it isn't really obviously relevant to the article subject - David Gerard (talk) 21:22, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

It is already up for deletion: Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2013 August 31. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 21:34, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Yep, and looking like a pretty clear keep. Guettarda (talk) 21:37, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

That is the flaw of XfD; sometimes mob rule can overwhelm common sense, sense that should inform one that a template misrepresenting a guideline that one should follow as a policy that one must follow is not a good thing to keep around. This should have been a textbook CSD:T2 deletion. Tarc (talk) 22:26, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

I would just hold off and re-nominate it that or fix up the wording, a template should not go off what is not in the guideline. For those interested I have started a thread with one of my concerns here: Template talk:MOS-TW#Removal of possible WP:POV statement - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 22:33, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

The prevailing opinion in the current Request for Deletion (which, you will note, already suggested CSD-T2 as a rationale) is that the templates are accurate and appropriate, thus they cannot be said to be "unambiguous misrepresentations of established policy", and nominating them for speedy deletion because a previous non-speedy deletion discussion (using the same rationale!) didn't go your way would clearly be inappropriate. -sche (talk) 22:42, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

What does this have to do with article improvement? Unless something comes up that assists with writing the article, this section should be closed and/or hatted. – S. Rich (talk) 22:49, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

It stems from this edit. Since there's no talk page to discuss a talk page, the talk has to happen here. Guettarda (talk) 23:01, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

As someone who fully endorses the spirit and use of the template I don't feel I should close the discussion but it does seem pointless to argue since it's being discussed for deletion anyway. It's surely going to be kept so then the only debate is if it belongs on this article. Hmm, is Chelsea confirmed as a trans women, yes; in reliable sources, yes; and is this also considered a rather notable aspect of her life, well yes. Time to move on and let those who are still afraid of unknown-to-them gender variance come up to speed. If someone else would like to close this I think there is little else to say. Sportfan5000 (talk) 00:00, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a vote, while yes there are more keep opinions than delete, the outcome is based on the strength of the arguments provided so really the outcome could be anything. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:09, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Yes, it's quite a mystery how this will all turn out. Sportfan5000 (talk) 00:14, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

• this template has been divisive since the beginning. Unless you like bickering over trivialities, why not drop the stick, remove the template - then there's nothing for people to argue about. You can always add it later when things die down and the article gets moved (which is looking more and more likely). It's optional, and not needed given the pronouns are already fine, and we have a FAQ addressing this issue.Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 01:28, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
  • Only for a certain set of editors who seem to be stuck on the same arguments in the face of being on the wrong side of history and good writing. This issue will come up again and again, and having the most apropos template obvious at the top is helping more than hurting. If people want to spout of and prove they are bigoted then so be it. Sportfan5000 (talk) 01:42, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
  • Ah yes, the "do what the other side wants and that will stop the argument" argument. Sure, I bet if we also changed all the pronouns back to male, took Chelsea's name out of the lede and inserted a lengthy screed about how transgender people are mentally-defective perverts, the other side would be very happy and stop the argument. Because they would have gotten what they wanted. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 05:32, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Interesting how some people seem to feel the !vote to move the article back to Bradley Manning is all-controlling, while the !vote to keep the MOS-TW template is illegitimate and ill-founded "mob rule." NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 05:18, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

There's no doubt the the Bradley Manning survey / !vote received a massive amount of input - from hundreds of contributors. I am not sure if the same can be said of the discussion over whether to include MOS-TW. Was it actually put to a survey / !vote? As far as I know it was just two discussions with a dozen or two contributors total rather than a formal survey / !vote. If the archive says differently please do let me know. CaseyPenk (talk) 06:12, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Chelsea Manning: Shall we just quietly (and less than boldly) follow Encyclopedia Britannica on the name?

Lets stop discussing the past and discuss the article. Since Encyclopedia Britannica has gone to "Chelsea Manning," [9] shall we just do it? Alanscottwalker (talk) 00:27, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

it is not as simple and clear cut as that, Manning's own lawyer has used the name "Bradley Manning" when asking for a presidential pardon. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:36, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

It did not stop that encyclopedia? Why would it stop us?Alanscottwalker (talk) 00:54, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Why wouldn't it stop us? The whole debate is that manning would be offended by being called Chelsea right? Now you have his/her own lawyer calling him Bradley when asking for a pardon. I would go with what name has become more notable. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:57, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

I did not mention anything about offense? I cited a professional general interest encyclopedia, since we are writing an encyclopedia. Alanscottwalker (talk) 01:02, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

First off Knowledgekid, using "his/her" is offensive, please stop. her name is now Chelsea despite our present article title. Secondly - In her filing for a presidential pardon, Manning used "Bradley"; Manning's lawyer, David Coombs, explained that legal proceedings were required to use Manning's legal name. Prison officials reported they would not formally acknowledge "Chelsea" until a legal name change. We can not presume to know the legal maneuverings in one of the world's most-watched cases. You're reading misinformation into this. Sportfan5000 (talk) 01:07, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but an encyclopedia is not a valid source for us to use.Two kinds of pork (talk) 00:37, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

(ec) I still don't think a move is appropriate at this time, since the 30-day waiting period has not yet passed. Also, Encyclopedia Britannica isn't necessarily a good example, since they use male pronouns instead of female. Edge3 (talk) 00:38, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Well, this is about the title. And yes Encyclopedias may be used as reliable sources. Alanscottwalker (talk) 00:49, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

what do you hope to achieve here? Do you really think that because one source moved, all opposition will fade away? I enoucrage you all to participate in the collection of sources (linked at the top) for the next move. Britannica is clearly a RS and the fact that they moved today is important, but not decisive. Why don't we shut this section down, we're not arguing a move here and the source itself will be discussed during the next move discussion.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 01:22, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Why should we follow Britannica's lead on the article title only, and not the pronouns? The knife cuts both ways. Edge3 (talk) 01:27, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

No one is proposing doing so. Alanscottwalker (talk) 01:40, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Britannica has a different set of editorial policies than we do, so we will not always follow their lead, and vice versa. CaseyPenk (talk) 01:23, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

No one is proposing following all their policies, or any of them. Just that following this reliable source for this would be a useful edit. Alanscottwalker (talk) 01:48, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

• What? http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/1767689/Chelsea-Manning goes to "Bradley Manning", http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/1767689/Bradley-Manning/ and it doesn't even contain "Chelsey". --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:32, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

This is why its good to discuss sources. When I click both of those, it has as its title "Chelsea Manning". And it begins: "Chelsea Manning, original name Bradley Edward Manning (born December 17, 1987, Crescent, Oklahoma, U.S.), U.S. Army intelligence analyst who provided the Web site WikiLeaks with hundreds of thousands of classified documents in what was believed to be the largest unauthorized release of state secrets in U.S. history." .Alanscottwalker (talk) 01:38, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Odd. Both links take me to the same page. The article history indicates the version as "Updated for his sentencing." by Michael Ray 21-Aug-2013 --SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:20, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Yes, odd. What I link to says it was updated yesterday. Alanscottwalker (talk) 02:38, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Can I just ask why this cant just be moved to Talk:Bradley Manning/October 2013 move request#Comments (on the above sources only)? Discussing sources on the future move request where all the other sources are being discussed makes more sense. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:49, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Because we are having a good discussion of this source here on a place where we are suppose to discuss this article and its sources. Alanscottwalker (talk) 01:53, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Did you happen to note that Britannica refers to Manning as "he" ? Do you plan to suggest that the Wikipedia adopt that convention as well? Tarc (talk) 02:07, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

No. I don't plan to. I am not proposing to copy their article, or their policies. Alanscottwalker (talk) 02:10, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Funny, I swear up there at the top there's a line by you that asks "shall we just do it?" in regards to following Britannica's lead on titling their article "Chelsea Manning". I note their choice of pronoun also differs from ours, so I ask again, shall we just do that too? If not, why are you trying to nudge us to follow their lead in one aspect but not the other? Tarc (talk) 02:20, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

We always choose among portions of reliable sources in our editorial process, and then we use them as we deem fit.-- Alanscottwalker (talk) 02:29, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

The thing though is that both of these things are relevant to the article. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:32, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

That seems like a very nice way to say that one finds a source and cherry-picks the parts that agree with one's already-made-up-mind and discard the rest, Alan. Tarc (talk) 03:28, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Indeed. Getting quite a good laugh out of this thread. This is why we don't make decisions based on a single source. StuartH (talk) 06:48, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

"I am not proposing to copy their article, or their policies." Good point there. Notably, our policies on pronoun usage differ greatly from Brittanica's. As far as I can tell they either have no policy or use the pronouns that refer to the person's public gender identity at the time, whereas we at Wikipedia have MOS:IDENTITY, which explicitly asks us to use the person's latest preferred pronouns. As you may already be aware, editors have heavily scrutinized that part and are discussing at WT:MOS. CaseyPenk (talk) 05:01, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

The best way to move it quietly would be to first be quiet for a few weeks. Dicklyon (talk) 02:41, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Since when have we ever simply gone by what EB does? Fyunck(click) (talk) 07:05, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Mention of parole in lead

Hi Srich, I restored the sentence in the lead about the parole: "She was sentenced to 35 years in prison and a dishonorable discharge, but with credit for time served and good behavior could be released on parole after eight years." It seems important to make clear that she won't actually serve 35 years.

Also, "sentenced to ... a dishonorable discharge" is worded that way because she hasn't actually been discharged. Another editor who has some expertise in this decided that was the best way to word it, rather than "given an dishonorable discharge," which implies that the discharge has taken place. What do you think? SlimVirgin ^(talk) 02:59, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

But there is no guarantee that she won't serve 35 years (less time served credit). Parole/good behavior credits are largely discretionary and it is entirely possible that she will have to serve the entire sentence in confinement. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 03:21, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

WP:CRYSTAL #1 applies. The credit for time served is there, but it does not reduce the sentence issued. Basically the credit means the sentence of 35 years starts at the pre-trial detention date. There is no certainty about parole, early release, pardon, etc. in the future. Using the wording of "could be" should not be included as part of the sentence. Also, NxS Baranof's comments are correct – we don't know how long Manning will actually serve. We do know what term of imprisonment as punishment the court issued. (The DD is virtually certain to be given, but as a matter of procedure the paperwork has not been issued. That question is not a big deal IMO, as we are unlikely to learn exactly when the GCMCA approves the sentence, etc.) In any event, I am satisfied with SlimVirgin's version. – S. Rich (talk) 03:36, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

MOS:IDENTITY RFC: Should the text "When there is no dispute..." be deleted, kept or changed?

FYI, an editor has opened an RFC on the first bullet point of MOS:IDENTITY. This is a separate issue from the discussion of pronoun usage for transgendered individuals, but is still related to the Manning controversy. Please see Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style#MOS:IDENTITY RFC: Should the text "When there is no dispute..." be deleted, kept or changed?Anythingyouwant (talk) 04:14, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Proposed Solution

I'd like to ask everyone to hear me out before the resounding voices of opposition come and say this looks stupid. I hope this hasn't been suggested before, but between the archives and policy/style page debates there is a LOT of repeated arguments.

Proposal: Move the page to Chelsea (né Bradley) Manning

1. née means "name at birth" and né is the masculine form. The title would literally read "Chelsea (masculinely named Bradley at birth) Manning"
2. It's respectful to the fact that transgenderism believes she was always a female, yet was assigned a male gendered name at birth.
3. It's informative. A person won't end up at wikipedia, believe they stumbled on the wrong page, and mash their back button.
4. It's important for an encyclopedia to be instantly informative and recognizable. A person should know they got the right page before they read the lead.

Originally I sat on the WP:COMMONNAME side of this debate, but didn't say anything because I couldn't articulate why I thought COMMONNAME was right. The more I mulled over COMMONNAME, and the fact that the United States generally doesn't have legal names, the more I realized this is a failure of COMMONNAME to address name change situations with press releases. I also didn't think it was a good idea for Wikipedia to lead the pack. The more I think about it, the more I realize that reflecting the new information found in the Today Show press release, isn't LEADING. It's just making the move more quickly than COMMONNAME generally allows. In that case, it's BETTER to be accurate and informative and use WP:IAR. Accuracy, clarity, and the ability to convey meaning should be paramount goals of Wikipedia. (Sidenote, I do think the move was inappropriatly fast, and discussion should have occured first. But now discussion has occurred.)

If the purpose of wikipedia is to inform people, and be educational, the best solution is to have a title that conveys "This person's name IS Chelsea (but was previously) Bradley Manning. I found one source that refers to her as Chelsea (né Bradley) Manning. http://www.nowtoronto.com/news/story.cfm?content=194246 There are also a couple using née and nee, but I believe those are written by people unfamiliar with the distinction. http://mashable.com/category/bradley-manning/ http://www.chicagonow.com/dennis-byrnes-barbershop/2013/08/poll-is-chelsea-nee-bradley-manning-entitled-to-a-sex-change-while-in-prison/

Lastly I would also offer a side suggestion to change the lead to "Chelsea Elizabeth Manning (née Bradley Edward Manning, December 17, 1987) is a United States Army soldier" as a way to QUICKLY offer a link to the née page for anyone who might like to read more about the word. Xkcdreader (talk) 09:26, 6 September 2013 (UTC)