Talk:Brothers of Jesus

the "see" of Israel: A See is the seat of a bishop. There was a (Pauline Christian) see of Jerusalem, but the idea of a see of "Israel" which no longer exised, or even of Palestine or Judea, which did exist, is the product of a modern imagination. Wetman 01:12, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)

• Wetman is correct therefore I have edited the article to reflect his comment. Loremaster 04:23, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)

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I feel that an entry Desposyni needs to disambiguate all the "cover names" in the Pauline New Testament (like "Mary mother of James" after the Crucifixion) and the equivocations that cover genuine family relationships. And the relations of Jesus and Mary Magdalene need to be carefully addressed. After all "who" the Desposyni were is a basic point. (I'm not competent to do this. Or I'm chicken...) Wetman 06:24, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)

• As always, I agree with Wetman. The Desposyni article was a quick creation of mine that I intended to come back to one day and make over but never did. I will try to do so as soon as I get some free time and find more sources. Loremaster 14:43, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Source?

Hello, what's the source for this statement: "Every early community of Judean followers of Jesus, whether it was Nazarene or Ebionite, was governed by a desposynos as a patriarch, and each of them carried one of the names traditional in Jesus' family but no one was ever named after him."

Also, what's the source for Jesus being a descendent of Zadok, David's High Priest? The Zadok given in Jesus' genalogy in the New Testament belongs to the time after the Babylonian Exile, at least five hundred years afte David's Zadok, doesnt' he?

Thanks. -- 84.57.14.9 17:50, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The source for the first claim is Martin, Malachi. The Decline and Fall of the Roman Church. New York: Bantam, 1983. 30-31.

The second claim is inaccurate and has been corrected to state that Jesus was a descendant of Aaron rather than Zadok. The source is Luke 1:5 and Luke 1:36. Do you need me to elaborate more?

Loremaster 20:37, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

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I have edited somewhat the statement of their dynastic legitimacy as fact. They may of course be true heirs, I don't know, but there just isn't enough documentation or other evidence to establish such claims irrefutably. Fire Star 15:30, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)

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What sources did Malachi Martin cite for his statement that "Every early community of Judean followers of Jesus, whether it was Nazarene or Ebionite, was governed by a desposynos as a patriarch, and each of them carried one of the names traditional in Jesus' family but no one was ever named after him?" Martin's account of the desposyni meeting with Pope Sylvester is equally suspicious. Where did he get it? Jbull 13:59, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Blood relative?

I thought that most Christians believed that Joseph wasn't a blood relative of Jesus. Is this an inaccuracy in the article, or an inconsistency within the belief being explained? Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 18:19, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

As "Son of God", logically Jesus could be no more than a half-brother of any human being. Thus the desposyni, as Jesus' human relatives, are "half-brothers" and "half-cousins" and "half-second cousins twice removed" if you like. But, and much more to the point, no such distinctions are made in Scripture, unless "brothers" does not really mean brothers —a strained reading that Roman Catholic tradition since Jerome has come ever more strongly to assert, because the developing mythology of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary trumped the plain-spoken statements in Scripture concerning family relationships. If the entry is insufficiently clear, it is because we need to be very careful on these points, or "disputed" banners will be applied and "controversial" text suppressed. --Wetman 18:52, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, I wasn't talking about brothers or half-brothers, but about Joseph (described as Jesus' father in the article). Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 19:01, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I added a short caveat to address this but this has to be developed. Loremaster 20:47, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

OK — though now I have another problem. Who used this term in this way if not Christians? Following the various links I managed to work it out (though I'm still a little hazy), but shouldn't this be stated clearly right at the beginning?
Incidentally, in Cypriot Greek Desposyni means Miss, Mademoiselle, etc. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 22:01, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I've edited the article again for clarification. Desposyni was a term used by Christians, Nazarenes and Ebionites. However, only the Ebionites used it to refer to Joseph due to their belief that he was the biological father of Jesus. Have you taken the time to learn more about the differences between these three sects within the Jesus movement? Loremaster 20:18, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Church fathers

I'm crossposting a recent post on Talk:Jesus Arch O. La ^{Grigory Deepdelver} 22:34, 4 May 2006 (UTC):

Hey - I would have just added this myself but the page is frozen. But I think we should add a section on the Fathers' view of Jesus' genealogy (specifically the view in Augustine's Retractions 2:7; St. Jerome's Commentary on Matthew 1:16; Eusebius of Caesarea's view in the Ecclesiastical History 1:7; and John Damascene's view in his Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith 4:14. That tradition says:

Heli son of Matthat was descended from David's son Solomon; Jacob son of Matthan from David's son Nathan. The Fathers claim that Heli and Jacob were in fact half-brothers. According to tradition, their mother Estha first married Matthat and had Heli; then after Matthat died, she married Matthan and had Jacob.

Now, when Heli grows up, he marries a woman (tradition doesn't assign her a name as far as I can tell) but dies before they have any children. Then, in accordance with the levirate law in Deuteronomy 25:5, Jacob married Heli's widow, and "raised up seed for his brother." Thus, Jacob was physically Joseph's father, but Heli was accounted his father in accordance with the Law. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Adam sk (talk • contribs)

Jesus Descendants down to today

The 2003-06 best seller, Da Vinci Code claimed the holy grail was Jesus bloodline down to today and was just following that same subject from earlier (1983-4) best seller, Holy Blood Holy Grail. Many off point disagreements over this assume immediately, that this meant Jesus didnt die on the cross and never went to heaven and so later had children. And so that would undermine all Christianity.

In fact, no one in these discussions ever meant that; they meant Jesus had children before he died on the cross and then still went to heaven. And the Bible clearly prophecied that Jesus would have children.

See -

• He shall see his Seed - Isaiah 53: 10
• He shall sprinkle his Seed across many nations - Isaiah 52:15
• Thus saith the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, and His Maker, ask me of things to concerning My Sons ... Isaiah 45: 11

The only source settling this all out for On Point consideration is the new book : The Jesus Presidents,

[http://www.booksamillion.com/ncom/books?id=3497424046150&type=author&find= l+e+cooper&x=5&y=7 Jesus Descendants to Today to Many Readers and You?]