Talk:White Americans

Pictures

How are the pictures in the infobox chosen? It seems like there should be more Hispanics and Arabs to show that they are considered White Americans.108.211.37.125 (talk) 04:34, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Greta Garbo was Swedish and wasn't even naturalized till she was like 1940. 75.64.105.140 (talk) 21:07, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Issues

Some comments on this article:

• It's interesting that there's not a strict parallel between "White American", which is treated by Wikipedia as distinct from "European American", and "Black American", which redirects to African American. Presumably the reason for this is a recently more expansive interpretation of "White", which includes Arab Americans and others whose ancestors might originate from beyond Western Europe. If this is the reason for distinguishing "White" from "European" Americans, the above commenter seems well justified in asking where are the pictures of Arab Americans.
• The page on African Americans contains a good deal of historical information about that group, even though they have not always been generally referred to as "African Americans". This article contains no information at all about "White Americans", as though they had descended on Turtle Islands from Europe via Outer Space in the year 2000—just in time for the census. Although there are plausible justification for treating the history of "European Americans" in a separate article, this article should contain historical information about, at minimum, the legal status assigned to "White people" in various places and times within the United States. Perhaps (not sure) the most conspicuous example of an official "White" legal status would be during the Jim Crow era in the American South.
• The "Income and educational attainment" section is quite problematic. An obvious problem is that the text offers (seemingly unsourced) single causalities for sweeping demographic features. Consider the following statements:

• "The median income per household member was also the highest, since White Americans had the smallest households of any racial demographic in the nation."
• "However, due to Whites' majority status, 48% of Americans living in poverty are white."

• Another problem with the "Income" section is the lack of historical context for white affluence in the U.S.
• White supremacy is not linked anywhere on the page. This is an egregious omission, since "white supremacy" describes the social structure of the U.S. from at minimum 1776–1968, and maybe after depending on who you ask. Almost everybody agrees that "white supremacy" is a belief system actively held by some White Americans. White privilege should also be linked.
• Too much of the article is spent re-hashing "definitions of whiteness", given that a main article for this topic already exists and readers can be directed there.
• There's hardly any information at all here about White American Culture. In fact White American Culture simply redirects to the Culture section of this article. "European American culture" goes nowhere. This is insanely lopsided, given the huge article on African-American culture and similar articles on other racial/ethnic groups in the U.S. 'There is no single White culture' is a ridiculous cop-out when similar generalizations have been made about the extremely diverse cultures of other groups. The current four-paragraph exegesis of a single book is completely inadequate.

OK, that's it for now. What do other folks think? This page clearly needs an overhaul. peace, * groupuscule (talk) * 13:07, 11 July 2013 (UTC) *

I agree. Some sections look as if they were written in PC language with just the fingertips on the keyboard lest somebody be offended if he or she had gone into any detail about the massive input white people had in forming and shaping American culture.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:56, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

Are white americans really white?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/jul/15/usa.genetics

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJ1I0XKNf4M

OK

No they are just wearing Casper the Friendly Ghost Halloween costumes.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:58, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

"Now I obviously have proves to claim my sayings."Winston S Smith (talk) 00:55, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Inaccurate statements

As whites, especially White Anglo-Saxon Protestants, or WASPs, are the dominant racial and cultural group, according to sociologist Steven Seidman, writing from a critical theory perspective

The article appears to support Seidman's opinion, which is not accurate. If you compare the representation in powerful places by WASPs vs Germans, Irish, Catholics, Italians, there is no difference. The one White subgroup that is greatly over represented is Jewish Americans. This is bias.Winston S Smith (talk) 00:51, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Are Hispanics "White"

The majority of Hispanics identify as White and the census allows Hispanics to identify as such, those that identify as White should be included in the total count. We have pages for Non-Hispanic Whites and White Hispanic and Latino Americans which break out the separate populations. This page is an aggregation of the two populations. Perhaps you should first propose that White Hispanic and Latino Americans be deleted. Patapsco913 (talk) 12:27, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

I think if you check https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Cau7ion you'll find they've got a bit of an axe to grind about race, generally marking controversial edits as "minor". Pinkbeast (talk) 14:39, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

Yes, while about 50% of Hispanics in America identified as white -- 50% of Hispanics in America are not white.

50% of Latinos in Latin America are not even white, certainly 50% of them in America are not white.

I can link to you to sources for the average genotype for certain Latino ethnicties.

I honestly don't even see why a White Hispanic needs to be on the page, besides a reference under related ethnic groups or in one reference in the original paragraph, you might as well put a White Arabs one too cause of identification.

Black Americans do not have a Hispanic one under their total population numbers, Asian Americans, etc, and it seems redundant to have it on the page.

Latinos aren't accepted as white in America generally and you know this -- there is a reason for that too.

I recently edited the White Hispanic component out of the total population number cause it might cause confusion, but left the references in other parts.

In my other edits it was fixing grammar, citations, and a few other mishaps, that's all.

@Pinkbeast correcting things about racial classifications and history doesn't mean I have an axe to grind breh.

- Cau7ion (talk)

Well in response.

1. This article is about the greater category "White" which includes both Hispanics and Non-Hispanics (like Pope Benedict who is of Italian ethnicity). It does not include Hispanics who do not identify as White. We already have a page referencing what you seem to want. If you are opposed to the concept of White Hispanics (since you say that they do not exist despite more than 50% of Hispanics in the US saying that they do), why don't you fight the first battle and propose that that article be deleted.

2. It is irrelevant what percentage of Hispanics outside the US are White since the article is about the US.

3. The average genotype of Hispanics is irrelevant since we are discussing about the sum of individuals.

4. White Hispanics are on the page since they are a large portion of the White population.

5. The term White non-Hispanic is used to measure the non-White population in the US (and generally the only category used by the news media) where if you are any part non-White (Black, Asian, Native American..etc) or Hispanic, you are considered non-White. So if we added Black Hispanic and Latino Americans and Asian Hispanic and Latino Americans to their respective pages everything would be ok? That could be easily rectified.

6. You seem to be the only one confused about what a White Hispanics is. Patapsco913 (talk) 09:47, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

1.No, I know that a White Hispanic does exist in reality -- I just believe that 50% of Hispanics in America are not white (they aren't and you know the average Hispanic is of mixed ancestry in America) hence the reason I began talking about genotypes.

2. Pope Benedict lives in Argentina, not America. Exactly, so his ethnicity means nothing.

He's an Argentine, not an American.

3. Nope, it's quite apparent that even the census has some connotations about their legitimate whiteness, even more so than Arabs, cause of their separate classification.

4. Yes, but nobody believes that 50% of Latinos in America are white (they aren't socially accepted as white) just look at my above post, basically just covered this.

PS: never met a Latino in real life who considers themselves white.

I lived in Southern California for a good portion of my life.

5. If you want to a add an Asian-Hispanic/Latino American and black one, go ahead.

Just keep them out of their total population numbers in the original article, it might cause confusion.

6. Nope, perfectly fine, just 50% of Hispanics in America are not white.

People from Uruguay are mostly white (actually white) not some mestizo identifying as white in America, that happens seemingly on the census, but I have never seen it in real life.

I don't want White Hispanics in the total population number in the article cause it might cause confusion about the true white population in America.

They aren't seen as white generally, or socially accepted as white, and aren't genetically European (like I mentioned) you might as well make a White Arab one for the Arab-Americans who identified as white. If you did that though, it would just be seen as stupidity by most -- just like the sham White Hispanic population in America.

tl;dr -- just keep the White Hispanic out of the total population number as it's not used by most sources as legit (like you mentioned) and will just cause confusion, but keep the reference to these so called 50% of White Hispanics just in case.

Thanks.

- Cau7ion (talk)

• The above only proves that you are editing based on your personal opinion and not cited references and not consensus--which you clearly do not have. It also shows that your statements that the edits are minor cleanup are false. Hmains (talk) 19:45, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

No, I already stated that I could provide to you evidence of these peoples genetic composition on average.

He even admitted in his own post that the non-white Hispanic is used by my most sources -- not one that includes a White Hispanic aka a mestizo who identified as white and creating false numbers for the true white population.

The fact that Arabs and Jews (Ashkenazi, Sephardi, etc,) even get classified as white is honestly hilarity at its finest.

Even the whitest Jew ethnic group (Ashkenazi) are Middle Eastern/European hybrids.

There is no black Hispanic Americans or Asian Hispanic Americans or White Arabs references but apparently there needs to be a White Hispanic one under the total population part of the article?

Why?

Socially you know they aren't accepted as white, genetically 50% of are not of European descent, and it is just gonna cause confusion and isn't used by most sources.

My other edits were just fixing grammar and a few other mishaps.

- Cau7ion (talk)

• You seem to know nothing about WP and its editing requirements. Your personal opinions are of no consequence and you do not prove anything to me or another other editor. What you must do as an editor is to only include material in articles that is taken from reliable cited sources. You need to read, understand and follow the following: WP:NPOV, WP:OR, WP:VERIFY, WP:SOURCE, WP:CON. Hmains (talk) 05:00, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

Smh you must be an illiterate fool son, I just stated that I could provide sources for the average genome of various Hispanic ethnicties in America and prove to you that 50% of them are not white and are of mixed ancestry for a very high percentage of Hispanics.

Hispanics get a separate category in the census for white population and aren't put into the total volume because even the government has a questioning connotation about their legitimate whiteness.

I didn't remove Arabs and Jews from the white population (because they actually get put into the official number) despite the fact that I don't consider them to be white.

So no, it wasn't a personal opinion, but using the number that's used by my most sources.

I didn't remove the White Hispanic/Latino reference out from the article, just from the official number under total population cause it might cause confusion.

My other editing was just grammatical fixes and other basic things like I stated previously.

- Cau7ion (talk)

There is no genetic definition of "White American". It's not science and never was. If somebody self-identifies as white then they are white. There is no test. — ArtifexMayhem (talk) 05:00, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

Okay, your perception on who is white may differ from mine, but like I stated earlier under the total population I was using the non-Hispanic white percentage and number (the number and percentage that is used by most pretty much all sources) even the other dude I was arguing with conceded on that.

I am not using a personal opinion here for my discern on who is white and who isn't, but using the number that is used by the census (non-Hispanic 63.7%) and used by pretty much all sources too when referring to the white population.

63.7% is an official number by a government census.

I did not delete the White Hispanic reference to show how many Hispanics identified as white, just did not use the 72% number under the total population.

- Cau7ion (talk) 12:25, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

The assertion whether US Hispanics are white or not is so simplistic! It is exactly the same as to discuss whether Americans are white or not. Americans come in all shades and races, exactly the same as "Hispanics". People really cannot grasp such a simple thing? Wow, the education system is really a mess!. I agree that the majority of Hispanics in the US, who are mostly of Mexican descend, tend to be Mestizo, many also pure Amerindians, others Black or Asian or any mixture thereof, and others white. More or less like it is happening with the rest of the US population, especially children: See: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/17/us/whites-account-for-under-half-of-births-in-us.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

In short, most Hispanics are not white but many are. According to the reasoning above, those who are White in American should not be considered white at all when the majority of the population is not, which is already happening. Therefore, the article should be deleted, right?. Sorry, but some people's critical thinking skills are very weak.

As to the genetic think, the blondest of Europenas in Europe have lots of non-white genes.See:

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090806150027AAeL41i

Now again, "whites" will not even exist? Those types of position are, as said, simplistic and ignorant, sorry. Pipo. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.203.97.65 (talk) 21:07, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

Edits

My multitude of recent edits to this page is fixing grammatical errors, citations, and a few other mishaps. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cau7ion (talk • contribs) 04:41, 12 October 2013 (UTC)