Talk:Christopher Columbus

first § is a mess

The first paragreph of this article is a mess. A cleanup is needed, but I am a little afraid to touch as so many povs and npovs side by side. --BBird 23:53, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Legal docs

The legal documents that demonstrate the Genoese origin of Cristoforo, his father Domenico, and his brothers Bartolomeo and Giacomo (Diego) are discussed in Chapter II of Samuel Eliot Morison's "Admiral of the Ocean Sea. Gobuff was here in the sea. On page 14, Morison wrote:

<<Besides these documents from which we may glean facts about Christopher's early life, there are others which identify the Discoverer as the son of Domenico the wool weaver, beyond the possibility of doubt. For instance, Domenico had a brother Antonio, like him a respectable member of the lower middle class in Genoa. Antonio had three sons: Matteo, Amigeto and Giovanni, who was generally known as Giannetto, the Genoese equivalent of "Johnny." Johnny like Christopher gave up a humdrum occupation to follow the sea. In 1496 the three brothers met in a notary's office at Genoa and agreed that Johnny should go to Spain and seek out his first cousin "Don Cristoforo de Colombo, Admiral of the King of Spain," each contributing one third of the traveling expenses. This quest for a job was highly successful. The Admiral gave Johnny command of a caravel on the Third Voyage to America, and entrusted him with confidential matters as well.>>

Samuel Eliot Morison saw no legal documents connecting the discoverer who was called Cristoval Colon to Cristoforo Colombo. No such documents exist because it has never been proven that they were one and the same man. 82.154.144.230 01:36, 5 April 2006 (UTC)Manuel Rosa

Sorry, but this is not correct. In his will of February 22, 1498, Columbus states flat out: "yo nacio en Genoba" (I was born in Genoa). See Textos y Documentos Completos, Consuela Varela, ed., Madrid: Alianza. In view of Columbus's own personal statement, I am changing the top paragraph to state that Columbus was Genoese, in spite of various theories to the contrary. 2006 April 18. Keith Pickering.

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This document, his will of February 22, 1498 which is a fraudulent Last Will and Testament dated 1498, that so many historians use to try and prove that the Explorer Cristoval Colon was the same Cristoforo Colombo from Genoa was falsified after 1573. It has no witnesses on it no notary and inaccurate information easily verafiable by anyone wiht a 4th grade education who can read and do basic math. Furthermore in this document the Explorer is always called Colon and says that his family is Colon not Colombo even if he was from Genoa you still have the wrong man. The 1498 document is NOT a copy of the REAL Last Will and Testament of Cristoval Colon because the real Last Will was dated 1502 not 1498. It is very clear in the true notarized copy of the Testament and Codicil dated: a diez y nueve días del mes de Mayo, año del naçimiento de Nuestro Salvador Jhesucristo de mil e quinientos e seis anos that is 19th of May 1506. On this date don Cristóbal Colón, Almirante e Visorey e Governador General de las islas e tierra firme de las Indias stated before witnesses and a notary that his Last Will and Testament was instituted by him in 1502 (and not 1498) as I quote here: Cuando partí d'Espana el año de quinientos e dos yo fize una ordenança e mayorazgo de mis bienes TRANSLATION: When I left Spain in the year 1502 I made an ordinance and [order of] inheritance of my possessions. Therefore the date of the REAL Last Will and Testament was the year 1502 not 1498 as you accept. It has always amazed me how historians will throw away the real words of the Explorer and of the Court of Spain to replace them with their own words pushing their ideas of who Colon was.

Any historian accepting this 1498 forged and non-Notarized, non-witnessed piece of paper is accepting as unquestionable evidence a piece of paper that is so highly questionbale that it was thrown out of the Spanish Court as having the same worth a a blank piece of paper. At that time, when the Genoese liar, Baltasar Colombo (pretending to be a member of the Colon family), presented this Testament dated 1498, the Almirante de Aragón while reviewing it for authenticity said it was worth the same as un papel blanco - a blank piece of paper; it has no witness names added onto it, no original public notary name from 1498, nor the name of the notary who made the copy in the 1580s.

This is not objective but subjective history that you are peddling, this is wanting to accept evidence that was denied by the very court who granted the Admiral Colon the right to insititute his Mayorazgo and accepting a document presented by an impostor as real.

It is this continuous pushing of historians to accept flawed documents so they can try to merge the two persons into one (Cristoforo Colombo from Genoa and Admiral Cristoval Colon) that creates such unbelievable and unproven history as we are discussing here today. If you really want to be objective please start the article by saying that the true history and birthplace of Cristoval Colon is still contested and is really unknown but that most historians have agreed to accept he was a Genoese.

The Admiral wanted his birthplace to always be a Mystery and in this he has succeeded expertly. He would not go writing it in his Last Will as you accept. If you are convinced that he was from Genoa then you have not really researched as deep as you should have to reach a real unbiased decision based solely on the facts available. Not ONE document proves Cristoforo Colombo and Cristoval Colon were the same person. 81.193.41.13 11:24, 23 April 2006 (UTC)Manuel Rosa - still Unmasking Columbus.

I would definetly remove the following from the Columbus National Origin section: Columbus's son Fernando wrote in his biography of Columbus that he was Genoese; and his Genoese origin was also asserted by longtime family friend Bartolomé de Las Casas.

Because Fernando never, ever asserted in his Le Historie that his father was Genoese. If you can't understand Spanish then you should ask a Spaniard how to translate it. What Fernando wrote was that others wanted him to assert this but he refused to do so. Please read it more carefully next time.

And Las Casas also does not assert that Cristoval Colon was from Genoa. You must read Las Casas carefully as well: Original: Fué, pues, este varón escogido de nación genovés, de algún lugar de la provincia de Génova; cuál fuese, donde nació o que nombre tuvo el tal lugar, no consta la verdad dello. Translation: It was then, this chosen man, of the Genoese nation, of some place of the province of Genoa, where he was born or what name had such place, it is not known the truth of it. You turn this it is not known the truth of it into an assertion but it is clearly a doubt. As I stated already there is no solid proof that the two men were the same. One, Cristoforo Colombo, was a woolweaver born in Genoa in 1451 (if you beleive the Asseretto Document to be truthful) while the other who assumed the name of Cristoval Colon in 1484 was a nobleman in Portugal and in Spain who had two noble brothers in Spain and two sons serving as pajes to the future king of Spain. It is quite a stretch to make them both one and the same without any real proof. 81.193.40.2 23:10, 23 April 2006 (UTC) Manuel Rosa

Historie del S. D. Fernando Colombo

"The life of the Admiral Christopher Columbus by his son Ferdinand," translated by Benjamin Keen, Greenwood Press (1978), is a translation of "Historie del S. D. Fernando Colombo; nelle quali s'ha particolare, & vera relatione della vita, & de fatti dell'Ammiraglio D. Cristoforo Colombo, suo padre: Et dello scoprimento ch'egli fece dell'Indie Occidentali, dette Mondo Nuovo, ..." , which is available on-line at:

http://www.liberliber.it/biblioteca/c/colombo_fernando/

The publication of this book is a truly incredible story that provides irrefutable, indirect evidence about the Genoese origin of the Discoverer. Fernando's manuscript was eventually inherited by his nephew Luis, the playboy grandson of the Discoverer. Luis was always strapped for money and sold the manuscript to Baliano de Fornari, "a wealthy and public-spirited Genoese physician." On page xv, Keen wrote: "In the depth of winter the aged Fornari set out for Venice, the publishing center of Italy, to supervise the translation and publication of the book." On page xxiv, the April 25, 1571 Dedication by Giuseppe Moleto states: "Your Lordship [Fornari], then, being an honorable and generous gentleman, desiring to make immortal the memory of this great man, heedless of your Lordship's seventy years, of the season of the year, and of the length of the journey, came from Genoa to Venice with the aim of publishing the aforementioned book ... that the exploits of this eminent man, the true glory of Italy and especially of your Lordship's native city, might be made known." Why on Earth would Fornari do this, if he was not certain that the Discoverer was Genoese? [User Domenico Rosa, 9 June 2006]

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Following sentence looks like vandalism: "Columbus was not the first European to reach Mars. He did arrive though and exclaim, "The new world is like Paris Hilton: a landsape for every man to use!"

Trash cleaned up, again. Dominick ^(TALK) 00:21, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

It states here that the myth of the Earth being flat in Columbus's time was perpetutate by Washington Irving, but Columbus died before Irving was born. --Commander gree 07:03, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

You are correct. Most educated people since the 3rd Century knew that the world was round. The stories of people of Columbus' time believing in a flat world was invented in the 1800's to make the people of the Middle Ages and early Renaissance look quaint. --Pryaltonian

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This article states that there were many pre-Columbian trans-oceanic contacts. That cannot be historically substantiated. There are quite a few myths about such contacts, such as those of Madoc and St. Brendan, but the only pre-Columbian trans-oceanic contact that most historians of that particular area of study agree upon is that of the Vikings. Please edit the following to reflect what I wrote above: "Besides the fact that there were many instances of Pre-Columbian trans-oceanic contact, and it is questionable whether one person can "discover" a place which is inhabited by other people, Columbus is often credited as having discovered America." There weren't many; as I wrote above, only one such contact that can be proven to the satisfaction of most legitimate historians took place. Yes, if you were wondering, I am a historian, having received a degree in that subject from a large university.

Does your large university teach anything about the Portuguese Discoveries and have you ever heard of Terra dos Bacalhaus, Terra Nova, Nova Escocia, Terra do Lavrador or Antilhas? All are mentioned before 1492 as places named by Portuguese navigators beyond the Atlantic Ocean. 82.154.144.230 01:33, 5 April 2006 (UTC)Manuel Rosa, Historian of Iberia

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• An event in this article is a January 4 selected anniversary
• An event in this article is a March 15 selected anniversary

Template:FAOL

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As today, the dates are wrong, and also Columbus didn't started his travel from Mexico. This is vandalism, please someone correct it.

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Long, sordid previous discussion archived at Talk:Christopher Columbus/Archived talk since the page is getting too long to edit in some browsers.

See also Talk:Christopher Columbus/Archived talk 2 with even more slave explorer trade banter.

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Here's some links that quote from Columbus' diary.

• http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/columbus1.html (really good one)
• http://admin.muslimsonline.com/babri/columbus3.htm

He says, on first meeting Arawaks:

I was very attentive to them, and strove to learn if they had any gold.

Which would indicate that wealth was his primary motivation. So, he's a bastard and he took slaves, but I don't think that was his goal in the first voyage.

It is not such a strange thing that they wanted gold. It was not uncommon to trade worthless (to the Europeans) glass beads for worthless (to the Indians) gold. Such is the nature of trade. We only think that the Europeans ripped off the Indians because we think like Europeans. Now of course killing them for gold is bad, but who wouldn't want to be paid for their work? This voyage was a trade mission and like any business venture, it needed profit. He is hardly a terrible person because he wanted wealth. If so, we are all in big trouble most likely! -- Ram-Man

I'm most impressed by the fact that what is presented to elementary-school kids about Columbus is carefully sanitized to remove references to brutality towards natives, taking of slaves, cutting off of hands and ears, lust for gold, etc. That would be like talking about Charles Lindbergh but neglecting to mention the fact that he supported the Nazis... oh, wait.

Thankfully we at wikipedia can do better. Graft

• Lindbergh? If you're talking about active support I think Henry Ford would be a better example.

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I linked the article to Perceptions of Columbus which outlines good and evil archetypes of Columbus. It's a charged subject (like Palestinian homeland) -- and might be used as a proxy for larger issues, like imperialism and so on. --Ed Poor

• Perceptions of Columbus seems well incorporated into the main article here now, so I changed it to a redirect to Christopher Columbus. Infrogmation 20:16 Oct 23, 2002 (UTC)

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Christopher Columbus (Spanish: Cristóbal Colón, Italian: Cristoforo Colombo, 1451-1506) was a Genoese trader who crossed the Atlantic Ocean and reached the Americas in 1492

Lir, you changed "Genoese explorer" to "Genoese trader". Please don't get bent out of shape, if someone thisk Columbus was primarily an explorer -- even if he was also a trader.

You might want to add a sentence or 2 later in the article, which talks about Columbus's career as a trader. When and where did he trade? What did he trade in? If his cargo included human beings, then we might call him a "Genoeses explorer and slave trader".

When writing an article, as your English teacher probably told you, it's good to follow up introductory thoughts (like trader) with additional information: like "Columbus spent the rest of his life making journeys of exploration and trade across the Atlantic, amassing a small fortune from profits on stolen gold and kidnapped natives whom he cruelly sold into slavery in Spain, Italy and Corsica." (Note: I completely made up the last sentence; it's an example of the kind of information which, if true, justifies calling Columbus a trader.)

Get it? --Ed Poor 23:55 Oct 22, 2002 (UT

Lir, when the page gets too big, sometimes you can't edit expecially with Internet Explorer. Some of this probably needs to be archived. But really, IT IS ALL YOUR FAULT it is so full. Fredbauder 00:09 Oct 23, 2002 (UTC)

Most browsers on MacOS are vulnerable to this, maybe others too; the edit box craps out at around 32k of text. We were up to about 38k... I've moved old stuff to Talk:Christopher Columbus/Archived talk. --Brion 00:17 Oct 23, 2002 (UTC)

Ummmm....k. Columbos should be called by his proper Italian/Spanish name. Lir 00:18 Oct 23, 2002 (UTC)

Well, right or wrong that's not how he's called in English. --Brion 00:23 Oct 23, 2002 (UTC)

But that is how he is called in English. When your friend Juan shows up to party do u call him John? When your friend Franz shows up do you insist on calling him Frank?

I'd call them by the names that everyone else who knows them use to call them in English; since you've postulated in English that they are Juan and Franz, that is, ipso facto, what they are called in English. A certain overcelebrated washed-up Genoese entrepreneur of low moral fiber is known in English as Christopher Columbus. A certain 1st-century Jewish rabble rouser is known in English as Jesus. A certain 20th-century American politician is known as Jimmy Carter despite technically being James Earl Carter, Junior. An island not far from Europe is known in English as Ireland, as is the country that resides on it. A certain country on the mainland is known in English as Russia. Yadda yadda yadda. From your one-note strawman argument I can only assume that you don't actually read anything I've been writing on this subject, or that you're simply trolling. Please feel free to prove me wrong by responding intelligently to the content of other peoples' replies. --Brion 01:11 Oct 23, 2002 (UTC)

Right. A person called Ioannes who hung out with Jesus is rightly referred to as St. John in English, San Juan in Spanish, etc. Certain persons have entered the cultural consciousness enough to justify local adaptations of names. It's simply too hard to reverse. No westerners will be calling India "Bharata" any time soon, no matter what India calls itself.

Ummmmm...k- what language *is* "Italian/Spanish"? Is that like Esparanto?

Ho jes, Kristoforo Kolombo!

Should he not more properly be described as a sick and twisted genocidal monster, since that was precisely what he was?

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One of the "sources" listed on the old talk page states that Columbus killed 8 million natives. That's pretty remarkable given that if he killed one native per minute, day and night, non- stop, it would have taken him about 16 years straight. Maybe Columbus invented the nuclear bomb, too?

I believe they are referring to those killing under the orders of Colombo. It is akin to saying Hitler killed 12,000,000.

But if he was a slaver, why would he destroy his "stock"?

Surplus? (or in words attributed to GHW Bush, "Useless eaters"?) -- Kwantus 19:32, 12 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Are you sure you're not confusing Colombo with his followers ? Maybe he was a slave trader, that's no reason enough to order to kill millions. As far as I know, he did not stay long in America. No way he could order or would have ordered such killings. FvdP

You know...Colombo was a hero of Hitlers...

This overheard argument proves absolutely nothing. Hitler liked Eva Braun. Eva Braun did not order to kill millions. FvdP

Let me clarify, Colombo was a hero of Hitlers because Colombo was so effective at extinguishing the Untermensche.

Yet another unsubstantiated claim.... I'm not following you on this. And, I note that you cleverly avoided to answer my original argument: Why and how would CC have ordered to kill millions? FvdP

Lir, first: please sign your comments. It makes it easier to understand who said what, and I think we agree that communication is important. Second: Please remember that when you're making claims that go against accepted belief, you have to back those claims up. People want to know who said this thing that they do not believe so they can read it in further depth for themselves. Finally, please understand that you may not ever change anyone's opinion. Some people listen, some people don't. Some people care, some people don't. You may be right, you may not.  :-) --KQ

Im making claims that lots of people here agree with and have submitted evidence for. Some people are refusing to make any effort to understand the subject. Lir 01:12 Oct 23, 2002 (UTC)

And you're still avoiding efforts to answer my argument. I'm not sure were your lot of people are, since I'm not one of them. Like KQ wrote better than I would have, I'm ready to accept reasonable evidence, after I examined it. If "understand the subject" means "accept bare claims as Lir writes them down", then surely I refuse to make that "effort". --FvdP

Hitler did vocally admire the policies of exterminating Indians by both Columbus and the American government (I will attempt to find a source right now). I think the high number is a combination of people killed directly by columbus, by his men on his orders in order to subjugate the natives by frightening them, directly or indirectly killing slaves in transit to Europe, and him and his men introducing (albeit accidentally and without their knowledge) diseases such as smallpox and syphilis to which the natives had no defense to. Tokerboy 01:13 Oct 23, 2002 (UTC)

Hitler was not a all-encompassing genius. He may be wrong on Colombus. Further, there is a claim of million victims here. Apart of diseases, I don't see where these victims come from. And if it's by disease, it's unintentional. Really a different thing that "ordering to kill millions". And probably not due to CC alone. (Well, I may cease the discussion anytime soon without a warning, lest it becomes just endless.) FvdP

See? Im sooooooooo on krak Lir 01:14 Oct 23, 2002 (UTC)

He never killed 8 million natives although by making the New World known to the Old World he opened the way for later Spaniards to kill those natives. But you can't blame CC for the actions of those who followed. CC's main goal was to evangelize the natives, collect gold to pay an army for the recapture of the Holy Land, and make for himself and his descendents a sort of European style kingdom which the natives did not take easily to. CC's small army did kill hundreds if not thousands of the Haiti\Dominican Republic natives in wars to pacify the natives and aquire control their territory. He also sent to Spain a few shiploads of salves captured supposedly in war a practice which was quickly stopped by Queen Isabel. 82.154.144.230 01:33, 5 April 2006 (UTC) Manuel Rosa

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15th-century Europe was largely unaware of [Americas'] existence I added "largely" because it's likely there was traffic between Europe and the northeast part of the Americas...The Nova Scotian gov't has recognised the Henry Sinclair theory far enough to erect monuments to it. Some suspect precolumbian fishing settlements,;.not overwinter things but catch, dry, and go home arrangements. IMO "America" was a somewhat-guarded secret on which Columbus blew the whistle. -- Kwantus (indeed further down the same paragraph is that basic idea. Kwantus 19:32, 12 Sep 2003 (UTC))

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I was surprised to see the current portrait of Columbus in favor of the well-known and well-regarded portrait by Sebastiano del Piombo which is really easy to find

http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&safe=off&q=Columbus+Piombo

I've never even seen the current portrait before. For an interesting read, I suggest Looks Are Deceiving: the Portraits of Christopher Columbus, but I think the article would be better with the del Piombo portrait. Daniel Quinlan 10:01 27 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Add it to the article - this article is long enough for both. I suggest moving the current photo down near the paras talking about his later life since the etching is of an older Columbus. --mav 10:05 27 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Early Life

I have found a very good thesis made by Alfonso Enseñat de Villalonga about his early life, and the origin of his name. Any editor who is able to understand spanish, please read this document and consider it for inclusion in the main article: El CRISTÓBAL COLÓN HISTÓRICO: DE CORSARIO GENOVÉS A ALMIRANTE MAYOR DE LAS YNDIAS

His true name was: Pietro Scotto. He adopted a fake name to hide his pirate and later privateer career. The "Colombo" name was no invention either, he used to work with a pirate called Vincenzo Colombo, sentenced to death in 1492. When he reached Portugal, he used the name Pietro Colombo. When he went into Spain, he changed his name to Cristoforo Colombo, convincing the royalty that he was a capable privateer. He had to show a "clean" past, pirates were sentenced to death, and as privateer Pietro fought against spain. So he had to hide his true identity.

He sailed in all known seas and reached far away lands, so he had the experience. When in Portugal, he got a copy of a letter and map sent by the famous cosmographer Paolo del Pozzo Toscanelli to the king Joao II; of a possible route to india thru the west.

There is a detailed cronology and itinerary of his early life in this thesis. Please consider it for inclusion. Thanks.

picture of "columbus" at top of page

No one today knows what Columbus looked like as there are no extant portraits of him. There are references to his having been a redhead and to having had a strong, but average physique.

Yes, I know this. The portrait we're currently using is not all that well-favored. Daniel Quinlan 18:10, Aug 13, 2003 (UTC)

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The first paragraph is very biased. These facts should be presented in the document, but certainly not in the introduction.

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"It has not been claimed that Columbus was Armenian."

What the heck is this? Is someone taking the piss? -- Cimon Avaro on a pogostick 17:44, Oct 24, 2003 (UTC)

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Look, Daniel, there's NO GOOD REASON not to mention slavery or killing of natives in the introduction. If you want to keep the text "succint" there are many other things you could remove, or you could condense verbose text. Your desire to have a wonderful, positive portrayal of Columbus and avoid mention of unpleasant realities in the introduction is NOT appropriate. Graft 19:33, 24 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Did you read my change? All of slavery, killing, and exploitation are mentioned in the introduction. Should I add < font color=blood > too? Daniel Quinlan 19:55, Oct 24, 2003 (UTC)

Also, I'm not sure why you would want to remove mention of Las Casas, who is certainly one of the most significant figures connected to Columbus. Graft 19:33, 24 Oct 2003 (UTC)

He's mentioned in the body, but does not warrant a specific mention in the introduction, no more than Ferdinand of Aragon and Isabella of Castile who are also not in the introduction. Las Casas is also somewhat more well known for writings about post-Columbus events. Daniel Quinlan 19:55, Oct 24, 2003 (UTC)

Yes, I read your change: it removes mention of specific acts of Columbus and turns killing, slavery, etc., into general things which followed in his wake. That these were,in fact, things Columbus himself did is extremely significant in informing the reader about the nature and life of Columbus.

Re: las casas, he's the primary source for Columbus' journeys... I think he deserves mention in the introduction, but I'm not going to press it too hard. Graft 20:22, 24 Oct 2003 (UTC)

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The text right now is considerably lacking in the area of Christianity: Columbus himself felt he was inspired by a divine mission, and writes about it frequently. Furthermore many Catholics view his explorations as part of a divine plan... any ideas on this and how we might address it? [1] Graft 20:22, 24 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Just a note: I think it's common for Christians to attribute great inspiration to God. Sometimes, they even say God "spoke" to them. Most Christians don't mean that they literally heard the voice of God, though, when they say that, they just mean they felt something in their heart, etc. Daniel Quinlan 20:44, Oct 24, 2003 (UTC)

Beyond that, I think talking some about his Christianity, desire to convert, etc. is warranted, probably more than it is (it's near the end of the second voyage section). I am concerned that you personally have a major axe to grind, though. Daniel Quinlan 20:44, Oct 24, 2003 (UTC)

I'm not sure what axe that would be, exactly... I just think this is an important part of Columbus' significance in the world at large - his religious import. Graft 22:44, 24 Oct 2003 (UTC)

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Erghh... so, this is opening up a whole other can of worms, but can we somehow equivocate about "discovery" a bit more, like maybe remove the passive voice and say who considers him to be the discoverer? Certainly not the native residents of these continents... I don't find it very npov. Graft 20:27, 24 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I think the "Columbus discovered America" thing is a bit of a straw man nowadays. That's not what most people say, even the most simplistic first grade lesson. They say "Columbus discovered America in 1492" and are quite clear that Native Americans were already here (and probably even mention the Vikings most times). And from his perspective and the perspective of Europe, he did. I mean, if we find out space aliens knew about DNA a million years ago, will that mean that Watson and Crick didn't discover its structure? So, I do believe it's accurate to designate him the European who discovered America. Sure, the Vikings were in North America earlier and were Europeans, but basically nobody knew about their discovery until much later. The "discovery" word ticks some people off, but the article already bends over backwards to portray him as discovering nothing. Anyway, read the definition of "discover":

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=discover&r=67

Daniel Quinlan 20:44, Oct 24, 2003 (UTC)

Well, this point will probably fly right by you, but Wikipedia is, in a lot of ways like this, written for white Europeans/Americans. E.g., "discovered" means, "found for other Europeans", but it's written entirely as if that were the only context, which is so subtextual that it's not even mentioned. The fact that millions of people had already "discovered" the Americas and had been living there for 40,000 years goes unmentioned, because we are only interested in the European context. This is a particular casting of history which basically asserts the primacy and importance of the Europeans in history, ignores or denies the personhood of Native Americans, and is generally not neutral point of view. Graft 22:44, 24 Oct 2003 (UTC)

No, you don't seem to have listened to what DQ said at all. Discover means merely that one found something one didn't know of before. I can discover buried treasure, even though the person who buried it already knew it was there, and might even be alive, and might even live next door to me. No one has ever claimed that people were not living in the Americas before Columbus got there, so obviously by discover this wide meaning was intended. Look at the link DQ shows, with the example discovered a new restaurant on the west side. Does that mean the restaurant was unknown to anyone until I "discovered" it? This is not about "white European etc.", but about what the word means. -- VV 23:12, 24 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Actually, I DID listen to DQ, you just didn't listen to me, or, as I was afraid, it flew right by you. The issue of "discovery" DOES have to do with how you're telling the story, and who it's about. In this case, we're interested in whether Columbus discovered America because of its impact on Europe. We know this because we compare other incidents to identify the seminal event - we're not interested in describing Columbus' discovery in the context of native history, and the native societies in question get sparse mention. Columbus is the beginning-point in European expansion (e.g., end of the introduction), not the end-point in several millenia of indigenous history. Graft 23:29, 24 Oct 2003 (UTC)

OK, I understand you. You're saying that we're looking at Columbus from the perspective of how important he was for European expansion, and that's why "discovery" seems like such a natural word. Now how would the introduction be phrased differently if it were not from that vantage point?

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Others look past (or dispute) that view and recognize him for his massive impact on Western civilization.

This sentence has apparently been there a long time, but it bothers me alot. It's perfectly possible to view Columbus as one of the early leaders of a long string of genocidal conquerors and colonizers, and still "recognize him for his massive impact on Western Civilization". Indeed, I would say that people who view him that way recognize very acutely "his massive impact on Western Civilization". DanKeshet

The only reason he is famous, is that he discovered (quite by accident) a geographical region which was unknown to Europeans. While that is certainly noteworthy, I don't think it should be trumped up as somehow dwarfing what he did with his fame, fortune, and discovery -- that is, he started killing people, enslaving people, kidnapping people, raping people, and waging general genocide. How can you look past it? What is there to look past to? Essentially, I am agreeing with DanKeshet. Lirath Q. Pynnor

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In all seriousness, look at this man in context. Matching him up with other Canary Island traders of his time, before his voyages, he was markedly different. They all engaged in such activities with people they regarded as inferior, and all took captives. Characterising them as slaves is not exactly correct, it was more like specimens. It is heinous, but this article is lacking when you look at it in context, and strip out the 1960s revisionism.

Calling him genocidal isn't exactly right seeing that he did not undertake a large scale action against native people from the lands he governed, they were not prepared for the onslaught of European germs and mores, and many died but not as a political aim. I think villifying a man as a symbol of others excesses is grossly unfair to Columbus as a human being. He may have done wrong, but he shouldn't be held for the crimes of his contemporaries. Dominick

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excerpt of email to dominick

thanks for calling attention to the word "crimes" in your email to me. you're right that it was a poor choice of word. i've changed it and reverted the columbus page back to my other changes - which in my opinion add a lot of content, as well as clarify who the sentences refer to. now that i'm looking at it though, i do agree that it was more than a minor edit.

added content, which you welcomed in your message to me, includes for instance, the crucial primary source (the four voyages of columbus), the "black legend" material, and the crucial point that european diseases were more deadly to people being conquered and forced to labor in hard conditions with inadequate food. this is one of the main reasons that people tended to die at dachau, as well, of diseases that regular germans didn't die of.

clarification of perspective (eg. "claimed ownership ...monarchs" and "received as hero... in spain") makes the text less vague and less prone to simply accepting the assumptions of eurocentric history.

andy

• email communications are not part of Wikipedia. I edited the page, where I think a NpoV balance is achived. I felt you introduced an anti-european bias, but I think some of your edits have improved the article. Lets agree to let th article lie for a awhile and see what others edit. Dominick 22:05, 17 Feb 2004 (UTC)

• • This counter editing must stop. Please note the text: "meet the modern legal definition of genocide" There is no modern legal definition. I do not think you can call Columbus genocidal, he could not pursue such a campaign with his limited resources. You may consider the entire Spanish exploration genocidal, but even then you would consider intermarriage with native population.

---

Should discuss (here or elsewhere) very unusual coat of arms of Columbus. --Daniel C. Boyer 20:04, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)

A comment on his ethnicity

"Although he is generally assumed to be Genoese, his actual background is clouded in mystery. Very little is really known about Columbus before the mid-1470s. It has been suggested that this might have been because he was hiding something - an event in his origin or history that he kept a secret deliberately. It has also been noted that he not only wrote flawless Castilian, but that he used the language even when writing with Italians."

He was hiding his humble origins, and didn't marry Beatriz for the same reason. Prof. Eakin of Vanderbilt University (who has a truly awe-inspiring lecture series "Conquest of the Americas" through the Teaching Company), recommended the short book The Worlds of Christopher Columbus by Phillips and Phillips. Scholarly but a fascinating look at the mariner and his times. That he was Italian on both sides of his family from way back is one of the best documented facts of his life. The rush to claim him for other countries was started in England 100 years after he died.

He spoke Castilian with a thick accent (exacerbating his "foreigner" status, and perhaps contributing to the fact that he killed more Spaniards than Indians!) and his written Castilian with Portuguese phoenetics charmed Isabela, who had Portuguese relatives. The authors think he learned to write when in Portugal - hence the nature of his grammatical mistakes in Castilian. -Lisa

He never wrote anything in italian, not even when mailing his italian friends. It is documented that he wrote in catalan and that could speak catalan, though actual documents of the voyages are lost. The existing translations of the voyages descriptions can be interpreted as literal tanslations from catalan; specifically names of animals have been literally translated into spanish but losing its meaning. Backtranslating into catalan allows to identify the refered species. All of his gramatical mistakes can be found to be correct catalan words, or are catalan idioms. The places of the new land he named were, without exception, references to catalan places he knew (like San Salvador), or have some meaning in catalan (like Veracruz). The first voyage started and ended in catalonia (otherwise existing data is inconsistent).

Explain this claim. The voyage starts from Palos which is not in Catalonia. -- Error 00:53, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

 The start of the first voyage was Pals (Palos (spa) and Pals (cat) have
 the same meaning). Pals was the residence place of the Pinzón brothers. 
 Palos has not, and had not, any sea harbour. This is consistent with the
 passing through Gibraltar, while Palos is west of Gibraltar. 

I didn't know these claims.

So:

• This is not Pinzón's house where his descendants have been living for centuries.

• Most likely they are not. A population census made at that time in Palos shows there were no "Pinzon" living there.
• Some more data: The historian David Grau personally went to Palos and talked with the former owner (now belongs to the town hall) of the supposed Martín Alonso Pinzón's house. It was build 50 years after the death of M. A. Pinzon. The house has belonged always to his family and they have no connection with any Pinzón. The name "Pinzón" is not known in the village.

• Yánez Pinzón and Alonso Pinzón are Catalan names.

Not claiming this. The ones who lived in Pals were portuguese and named Pinçon. They were three brothers.

• Alfonso Pinzón. It is well documented that he has been to Rome. The catalan ambassador to Rome at that time was named Alfons Anes Pinçon.
• Fernando Pinzón. There was a civil servant in the catalan goverment of that time named Ferran Anes Pinçon.
• Vicente Yañez Pinzón. There was a Vicens Anes Pinçon, living in Pals. This is documented in a letter to the king Ferran (1479).

It is highly unlikely that there were also three (unregistered) Pinzón brothers living in another place of similar name (Palos) in another country at the same time.

From Palos de la Frontera

• A Pragmatic Sanction was read in Palos in May 1492 ordering the Palos-ans to give two caravelles to Columbus.

• There is no shipyard nor harbour in Palos. Not any rest or trace. According to local tradition, there has never been any.

• The monks from Nuestra Señora de la Rábida in Palos linked Columbus with the Pinzóns.

• We know that Colón wrote to the Pinzón long before meeting them. It is not clear how Colon got to know the Pinzon. Some previous relationship probably existed. This is a better explanation than finding them "by chance".
• We know that Colón was a friend of the owner of La Ràpita (near Balaguer, Catalonia).

• The quay of La Fontanilla was the start point of Columbus's expedition.

-- Error 00:40, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)

• Probably the first expedition departed from Pals (Catalonia). Pals doesn't have a sea port presently, but it had one at that time, as shown in ancient maps and backed by geological analysis. A drawing in the preserved copy of the first expedition documentation depicts the city walls of Pals with great detail.

 It is reasonable to think that Pals was also the end of the first voyage.
 Documents say that it took Colón three days to walk form "Palos" to
 Barcelona. This is a long trip from Pals (about 100 km), but impossible
 (over 1000 km) from Palos. 

It seems that all those claims are collected in http://www.geocities.com/cristofor_colom/a01.html that states that the early conquest of the Americas was done by Catalans, and that in the XVI century, the documents were (imperfectly) altered.

-- Error 00:40, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)

See also (in spanish) http://www.navego.com.ar/biografias/rese%F1as/colon1.htm

In catalan: http://www.histocat.com

Pictures exist of him holding the catalan flag (a red cross). All documents from his time refer to him as "Colom" (as in Colombia), not Colón. Colón is spanish pronunciation for Colom. Colom is a common catalan name. The contract he signed with "his king" was registered according to catalan law. He never wrote a single letter to the spanish queen, but to the catalan king or to both. The powers he later claimed were given catalan names (like "virrey"). There is even more evidence. All this together makes the catalan hypotesis a solid one.

I am a high school stundent and I am adding some information on Columbus in the article. Here is a copy of the works cited I used for my information.

Works Cited “Age of Exploration: Christopher Columbus.” The Mariners’ Museum. 2004. Newport News.17Nov. 2004 http://www.mariner.org/educationalad/ageofex/columbus.php. Caso, Adolph. “The Known but Unknown Pilot”. Washington Times Dec. 1991, vol. 6, no. 12:394-401 Chin, Beverly, et al., eds. Glenco World Literature. New York: Glencoe McGraw-Hill Companies, Inc., 2000. Jones, Mary E., ed. Christopher Columbus and His Legacy: Opposing Viewpoints. San Diego: Greenhaven, 1992. Lunenfeld, Marvin. “Columbus, Christopher.” World Book Online Reference Center. 2004. World Book, Inc. 17 Nov. 2004 http://www.worldbookonline.com/wb/Article?id=ar125200. “Medieval Sourcebook: Christopher Columbus: Extracts from Journal.” Internet Medieval Sourcebook. 1996. Halsall. 17 Nov. 2004. http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/columbus1.html.

CC's son wrote that his father went to the monasterio de Palos, llamado La Rábida. This is the Palos near Huelva. He then writes Partido el Almirante de la Rábida, que está cerca de Palos still referencing the same Palos. Then after receiving orders to prepare for the first voyage Fernando Colon again writes el doce de mayo de dicho año 1492 salió de Granada para Palos, que es el puerto donde tenía que hacer su armada thus making it look like Palos near Huelva was the base of operations.

Furthermore the name may have been written as Colom in Catalonia in 1493 but it was written as Colon in 1488 by King John II of Portugal, in 1492 in the Capitulaciones de Santa Fe, in 1493 in the Papal Bulls and in 1502 in the Book of Priviledges. As for the word Virrey you should read the title page of CC's own Book of Priviledges where it is clearly Visorey a Portuguese word for that title 82.154.144.230 02:12, 5 April 2006 (UTC) Manuel Rosa

It was the discovery of the other half of the world!

Columbus "discovered" the Americas for the map-making peoples of the world. Amerindians didn't go on voyages of discovery and didn't have maps of their continents. They were in the stone age and lacked the massive exchange of ideas available in the much larger Old World. They left Asia between 21,000 and 40,000 years ago according to genetic evidence. (To wit: Full blooded Amerindians, of which there are 100 million now thanks to the miracles of antibiotics and the anti-birth-control Catholic millieu, share no genetic mutations with anyone until you go back 40,000 years - eyelid-fold, tooth morphology changes, kinky hair, blue eyes, etc. They look like what all homo sapiens once did and are just as tall as northern Europeans under wholesome circumstances. The male children of Mayan refugees in Florida average 5'10". See this week's New Yorker.) -Lisa LisaHelenW@aol.com

Yes indeed. If I may, quit complaining :-). Help fix the Lisa, I welcome you to get a wiki account and start editing. Stealing from my own talk page but just a suseful: How to edit a page, How to write a great article, Naming conventions, Manual of Style. You should read our policies at some point too. Dominick 12:39, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)

There is one point that many people do not take into consideration. Columbus was a creature of his times, just as you and I are creatures of the late 20th and early 21st centuries. The conduct and thinking that was acceptable and commonplace then is quite likely not so today. As will today's thinking be 500 years from now. Simply put, we must not judge 15th Century man by the standards of the 21st Century. -Don B.

As for the phrase "it is questionable whether one person can 'discover' a place inhabited by other people", and putting "discoverer" in quotes, both seem very childish and churlish to me. If there's a great city on the other side of the hill, but it is unknown to me and everyone else in my city, I will of course discover that it is there when I cross over the hill. It's very plain and simple – it does not depend on whether or not that city is already inhabited, and it has nothing to do with "me-centrism". If I come across, by my own devices, any piece of knowlege that was previously unavailable to me, then I have discovered something new to me, if not to the whole world. Of course Columbus discovered America.

I will grant that it is equally obvious that Columbus cannot properly be fashioned as "the" discoverer of the hemisphere since he certainly was not the only discoverer. So I'm going to take a shot at rewording that intro paragraph a little, so see what you think of what I come up with. --Kbh3^rdtalk 10:33, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Grave

Some could be said about the current location of his corpse. -- Error 01:31, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Could it? I think there are no less than four places which claim to have it! - Nunh-huh 01:34, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)

His language

Either he not only wrote flawless Castilian, but that he used the language even when writing with Italians. or Nor was it ever easy to read Columbus's nonnative Spanish with its Portuguese phonetics and Genoese locutions.. How was Columbus' language? Remember that until 1492 there was no published grammar of Spanish. -- Error 02:32, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)

What I wrote in Columbus#The language of Columbus is a summary of a chapter in Det spanska Amerika i sprakets spegel by Bertil Malmberg. I used a translation. Ik sprak nej svenska. The Menéndez Pidal article should be in La lengua de Cristóbal Colón y otros estudios sobre el siglo XVI. Madrid, 1947.

---

Recent edits have highlighted the length of the first section. I don't mind long intros, but perhaps some of what is said there should be trimmed away. The opening paragraphs should explain who he was, why he was important, and any effect on modern society in some way (controversy, legacy). So some of what is said there about Muslim traders and the background to Columbus's voyages should be cut out or condensed, right? Brutannica 02:31, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Thanks, Graft, that just about did it. Brutannica 05:13, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)

"Columbus" meaning

The surname doesn't mean "colonist". Colón is similar to colono, but columbus, colombo, colom, colombe mean only "male pigeon". -- Error 01:44, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

... and the pigeon (or dove) is associated (means) the Holy Spirit. His name (or pseudonim) means bearer of Christ and the Holy Spirit. --BBird 22:24, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

Well, his "official" Latin name is "Christophorus Columbus" but in point of fact, many Renaissance era works written in Latin call him Christophorus Colonus (based, of course, on the Castilian form of his surname). And colonus does in fact mean "farmer; colonist." Seems worth mentioning somewhere, but perhaps not in the actual article ;) --Iustinus 08:50, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Colon and Colom are not the same names nor do they have the same meanings. Columbus is Latin, Colombo is Italian, Pombo is Portuguese, Colombe is French and Colom is Catalan and all these translate to dove or pigeon but none of these were the name of the discoverer since Fernando Colon says that Colon...en griego quiere decir miembro Colon [Kolon]...in Greek means member. Since the name Colon was a stand-in for the Greek Kolon chosen by Christopher to mean member none of the above names for pigeon are correctly applied names. The name Xpoval Colon was only assumed in 1484 when Christopher ran away from Portugal to Castile and was not his real name.82.154.144.230 02:24, 5 April 2006 (UTC)Manuel Rosa

China theory

I removed a couple of things from the intro. First, we don't need to refute the flat earth thing in the intro, since the intro doesn't even introduce it. And the issue is treaded with much greater detail in the body of the article. Second, the China theory is so out there it has no place in this article. By all means, have a separate article on it. It doesn't bear on this one. Slrubenstein

>Vikings=go >Irishmen=go >Basque sailors=go >China=no go --->That doesn't make much sense.

Maybe we should set an official limit (say, 3, 4 if we count the Vikings) on the number of questionable pre-Columbian exploration theories brought up in this article. So we could bring up the Irish, the Basque, and the Chinese, and then agree to save everything else for an article on questionable pre-Columbian expeditions. (By the way, if we do do that, then I'm not necessarily suggesting we use those three -- I thought the Phoenician and Malian theories were better supported?) Brutannica 20:14, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Mention of all but the Vikings can be deleted, as far as I'm concerned. Note that one previous version of the article claimed that the 6th century Irish missionary visits were probable. That is hogwash, according to almost everybody besides the followers of Barry Fell.CSTAR 21:16, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Well, I think we need a second (or third) opinion, and although I agree "possible" is a better word than "probable," I don't think it would hurt to include them, if just in one sentence, like "Evidence also exists for other, less well-documented expeditions to the Americas, such as by the [people], [people], and [people] --- see [separate article]." (And maybe "(but most scholars dispute this)" or something.) Brutannica 21:26, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)

It's OK by me to mention them, provided it is stated clearly (as is the case currently) that the existence of the previous vists is very much a minority view, and with references to the sources of these views. Actually I wasn't able to pin down a source for the Portuguese Cod fisheries...The Irish Missionary business is pretty easy to source (and by now broadly debunked). CSTAR 21:36, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)

But which theories should we cite? Besides the Vikings, there is evidence (in some form or another) for Indonesian, Japanese, Chinese, Phoenician, Celtic, Irish, Malian, Portuguese, Basque, and English expeditions. I personally suggest Phoenician, Malian, and some East Asian (China/Japan/Indonesia). Brutannica 04:03, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I say, let Vikings, maybe mention the presumed pre-discoverer whose knowledge would be transferred to Columbus and include a link to Ancient visitors of the Americas. This article is centered on Columbus. -- Error 00:40, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Whose is "the presumed pre-discoverer whose knowledge would be transferred to Columbus?" And why include a link to a non-existent article? Brutannica 03:03, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Ancient visitors to the Americas. Grrr. There is some theory about some mariner who had arrived years earlier and whose knowledge would have reached Columbus somehow giving him some proof for his fabulous claims.

[2] Debido a que se topara tierra tan rápido (tanto en este viaje como en los tres posteriores), se ha pensado que existiera un predescubridor que le hiciera saber a colón la existencia de esa ruta hay quienes piensan que este predescubridor sería un personaje originario de las costas de Huelva y llamado Alonso Sánchez.

-- Error 01:15, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Genora

While proofreading the article I found this confusing sentence: "Menéndez Pidal guesses that, in Genora learnt from some traveller notions of Portugalized Spanish and used in his deals a sort of commercial Latin (latín ginobisco for Spaniards). " I almost corrected Genora to Genoa and straightened out the rest of the sentence, but then I read that Pidal believed Columbus was from Catalonia. So I left the sentence alone, unable to figure out what was intended. Genora is a drug or a name, not a place I could find. Art LaPella 15:53, Aug 24, 2004 (UTC)

Er, I meant Genoa. -- Error 00:40, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)

WikiAwards

Just to state that this article is part of the paralel goal of the WikiAward for Greatest Sea Explorer of the period of the discoveries.

• If you do not know what are the WikiAwards just find out here.
• If you already knew register as participant and choose a category to vote. This Award is part of the History category.

Have fun, see the results, watch Wikipedia grow...--Gameiro Pais 05:44, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Is this a joke? RickK 06:20, Aug 27, 2004 (UTC)

Madeira question

"Felipa's father had partaken in the conquest of the Madeira Islands and owned one of them" i changed "conquest" to "discovery" since this could look like Madeira was conquered.. (or it wasnt meant this way?) also, did Felipa´s father really own one of the islands? there are just two... i assume it would be porto santo? ---Cyprus2k1 16:13, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The Madeiras probably were conquered - check the Wikipedia article to be sure. By the way, why all the links? Most of them are red. Brutannica 04:22, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

There was nobody living there, so they weren´t "conquered" in any sense of "invasion".. - --Cyprus2k1 04:47, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Ah. Well then, I guess they were "settled" instead. Brutannica 03:30, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Las Casas

Bartolome de Las Casas was a friend of Columbus. So he didn't blame him for the atrocities committed against Native Americans. Just check A Short Account of the Destruction of the Indies. --Mixcoatl 12:07, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Spices

Hey Mr. 4 numbers, can we get some reference for these spice stories? Gadykozma 01:48, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

This spice section is a good idea, but also a little suspicious. Much of it is contradictory -- I didn't quite know what to make of the part about people saying Columbus had failed, then saying he escaped ridicule. Also, I think contemporary perceptions of Columbus should be incorporated into the main article and not in the section on spices. In fact, the whole spice section ought to be moved further up. Brutannica 19:53, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The section I think should go completely. As far as I can see, the only information it adds is which spices Columbus discovered (the aji information is really interesting — is Columbus really responsible for the pepper confusion?), which should probably be merged into the end of the "First Voyage" section. Definitely it does not belong in the "perceptions" section.

However, we also have a problem of verifiability: the guy who originally posted did not come up with any proof of that, and because Columbus is such a hot topic, he might have invented it. As you noticed yourself, it sounds fishy. How can we verify the entries from Columbus log and the other stuff? Gadykozma 20:32, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

OK, I added the aji quote at the end of the "First Voyage" section, and deleted all the rest. The Columbus - The First Spice Seeker page contained practically literally this paragraph over again so I redirected it and removed the "merge from" tag. BTW: my experience is that newbies that post the same text twice that's usually a sign for copyright violation. Anyone has turner's book at hand to check? Gadykozma 14:02, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

where did he die?

Columbus died in Valladolid, Spain.

"Informationless Rant"

Don't know if this clears things up, but the passage pointed out the arrogance of Columbus in "claiming land" that was already populated and governed and then establishing himself and the Spaniards as rulers in the Caribbean. What gave him that right? Maybe it's not fair to single Colombo out from all the various other European land claimants in history, but I thought it gave an interesting perspective to the "Columbus as villain" argument.

By the way, the "Columbus as hero" section could use expansion. Brutannica 05:34, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)

see Terra nullius, "a Latin expression meaning "empty land" or "no man's land". The term refers to a 17th century legal fiction that permitted European colonial powers to assume control of land that was unclaimed (at least by each other)." Peter Ellis 17:45, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)

"Kukul Khan"?

"He'd heard the word "Kulkukan" (Feathered Serpent), and rejoiced that the land of "Kublai Khan" or the "Great Khan" was nigh." I never heard of that before, does someone has evidence Columbus heard the name Kukulcan? (Apart from that, the name is misspelled it's Kukulcan, not Kulkukan. --Mixcoatl 14:51, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Vikings

Where is it aknowledged that the scandinavians going to america was vikings? Is the term viking used in any document describing those travels, or is it a personal opinion that they should be called vikings? Dan Koehl 12:20, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Columbus was a hack. Vikings got to America first by 3 centuries, do the math.

Still thought he was in Asia?

On May 20, 1506, Columbus died in Spain, fairly wealthy due to the gold his men had accumulated in Hispaniola. He was still convinced that his discoveries were along the East Coast of Asia

It was my understanding that this was a myth, and any belief that Columbus had that he was in Asia died when he visited the mouth of the Orinoco river, and realized that he was dealing with a bonafide continent. Or did he think that this was another part of Asia? --Bletch 18:37, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Well, Asia is a continent. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:53, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

look up the word vinland and you might find some evidance

Cristopher Columbus never really reached the americas...he never made it off the islands of central america, many years later someone else had found part of upper north america, and parts of Canada.

gabriel simon

External links

• Possible new lead in Columbus bones riddle

rape and stuff

What is meant by "european historical account?" How many are there (the recent edit says "all")? Is this a synthetic claim, which would violate the no original research rule? I am tempted to revert it but would like to know what others think. Slrubenstein | Talk 00:04, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Greek?

Is Wikipedia going to back the Greek origin theory as much as to have it that up front in the article? I know that in NPOV the popular POV isn't the only one stated, but I think that it should be the one we say first. Now, mind, I'm not saying that he couldn't have been Greek. I'm just saying that we should say he was Genoese first.

Lee S. Svoboda 22:28, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC) George Kontopoulos 00:09, 12 July 2005 (UTC) Greek ? Who is claiming that Colombus was actually greek ? Nobody! All the article is saying (at least on its latest version) is that there is some evidence that he might have been born in Chios or lived in Chios. Chios was under the Genoese rule at the time so officially he was Genoese no doubt about it! And by the way, with all this SHOUTING and sarcasm the only thing you are accomplishing is to discredit yourself.

• The theory that he was geonese is from the 17th century (much later, more a wish than another thing),I believe, and it has many inconsistencies, that is why there are doubts about his origin. In classes, I was teached that he was probably genoese... but he could also be from other places. The article is fine, it is in the common sence POV, with a NPOV. ;) -Pedro 20:27, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

What it factual is that Columbus kept some of his journals in Greek, and that a large part of his crew members were Greek sailors (which doesn't prove anything on its own). There have been however several publications which support the theory of Columbus being a Byzantine Greek prince from Chios, which was at the time part of the Genoan kingdom. Miskin 13:51, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Miskin, You state What it factual is that Columbus kept some of his journals in Greek what documents are these that you mention with such certainty? Have you seen these Greek Journals of Colon? And do you have the name of at least oen of his Greek sailors??? I have never seen such documents and even if Colon wrote in Greek it does not make him a Greek the same as if he wrote in Hebrew or Latin does not make him a Jew or Roman. Please show us the proof of these Greek Journals. 81.193.14.81 22:22, 27 April 2006 (UTC) Manuel Rosa, Columbus Historian

See Ruth Durlacher-Wolper, The identity of Christopher Columbus or Aaron Goodrich, A History of the Character and Achievements of the so-called Christopher Columbus and there should be others. It is cited in contemporary sources that he kept a journal in Greek, had Greek crew members and used Strabo as his primary source on geography. He also referred to his crew member "George le Grec" as his kinsman. The latter's full name is George Palaeologus Disipatos, and was supposedly related to the Byzantine dynasty of Palaeologoi. None of the above proves anything, it only gives a good reason to mention the speculation, and therefore answer your question. Miskin 22:57, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Very interesting info! i did not know it. but since Colombus himself (in his diary) refered to a Greek as his kinsman(co-Greek), i have no reason not to believe him... --Hectorian 00:11, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Using strabo and Ptolomeo does not proof he was Greek. He used the Julian calendar that that make him a Roman? "George le Grec" also known as Colombo el Mozo was never a crew member of Cristoval Colon. It is again yet another historian who wishes to push upon the 1st Admiral of the Indies a nationality that can not be proven. THERE IS NO PROOF WHATSOEVER AT THIS POINT IN TIME WHAT NATIONALITY OR BETTER WHAT KINGDOM XPOVAL COLON WAS BORN IN AND WE CAN ONLY SAY FOR CERTAIN THAT HE LIVED IN PORTUGAL AND CASTILE ALL ESLE IS SPECULATION. Most historians have accepted Genoa as his place of birth through faulty documents and non-conclusive heresay of Italian co-patriots who wish to claim the explorer as their own but heresay is not proof. No matter how often it is repeated or argued for as K. Pickering does there is no proof connecting Colon to Colombo. 213.58.112.33 22:34, 28 April 2006 (UTC) Manuel Rosa

Who was the portuguese that tried to capture Columbus?

I can't remember who was the portuguese almost caught Columbus at Azores on his way back to Spain after his discover of America. Las Casas reported this affair in his "Log of Christopher Columbus". --Ypacaraí 02:43, 2005 Mar 30 (UTC)

Genetics Reference

Does anyone know of a reference concerning the results of the gentic studies concerning Christopher Columbus? - Xpo FERENS

"discovery"

How can someone "discover" something that people have already found. more specifically, i do not believe that columbus should have credit for discovering anything, because there were already people where he landed (and did you know he killed a bunch of natives for thier gold??) Gabrielsimon 8 July 2005 18:00 (UTC)

This is semantics but nonetheless rather worth dealing with, since use of the word makes the text Euro-centric. Aside from the native Americans already there, it's clear Europeans had come before (some apparently keeping it secret to protect fishing areas). Columbus does get credit for going there on the first successful, public, state funded expedition that resulted in a significant and permanent European presence (what a mouthful! ...even the vikings get credit for the "first" we know about). Anyway I've removed the word discovery and used alternates like find, exploration and journey as appropriate. The word discovery remains in a quote, also in a reference to an archaeological find of a bullet. Wyss 10:35, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Signs of Land beyond the Atlantic in Galway? / Navigatio Sancti Brendani

There is a legend which quite everone knows in Galway, Ireland that Columbus stopped there and, moreover, found certain evidence of land existing beyond the sea. I added what I (and others) could find about it to the Galway page and also to the Christopher_Columbus#Early_Life page. However, I don't really know anything about the author of the letter that I'm quoting from, and about his reliability. Another theory explains his learning about land beyond the Atlantic from his somehow getting in touch with the Natigatio Sancti Brendani by St. Brendan - this is claimed on the Brendan site: Christopher_Columbus relied on the legends told of St Brendan as part of his argument that it was indeed possible to travel to Asia by crossing the Atlantic. Some propose St Brendan as one of the ancient visitors to the Americas. However, there is a contribution on Diskussion:Christoph_Kolumbus#Beatriz_Enr.C3.ADquez.2C_Indianer.2C_Navigatio_Sancti_Brendani_und_Kolumbus_Lekt.C3.BCre.2C_Kampf_gegen_die_Mauren

in German which says he does not mention this book in his writings.

Another contribution on Diskussion:Christoph_Columbus#Christoph_Columbus.2C_5._Januar states that "Columbus certainly knew the book because it had been spread and translated into several language from the 10th century onwards."

It is also said on a website ([3]) that that "he mentions the city in his writings, and claimed to have visited England, and sailed as far north as Iceland." There is, however, no source indicated.

Can anybody take a look at this problem? --Robin.rueth 11:07, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

(message inserted from user:Robin.rueth's talk page

I had a look for "Armand de Châteauroux" and spotted that the author of the translation may not be bona fide. He appears to be of the Eric von Daniken and Dan Brown school of "creative archeology". So a little further looking found this - see Sulle (false) tracce di Atlantide - di Mariano Tomatis. My italian is not great, but it is good enough to see that this is a cutting criticism. I would like the see the original latin document and to be assured of its provenance. It might be wise to transfer your text to the Columbus talk page until you have more confidence in the source. It's just a pity I didn't spot this earlier! --Red King 14:01, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

I have removed my contribution from the Christopher_Columbus site until the problem has been solved. --Robin.rueth 14:45, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Here is the entry that I've removed:

A letter written by some Armand de Châteauroux claims that on this trip, near Galway in Ireland, he found what he considered a dead Chinese body floating in the water, which convinced him that it was possible to sail to China via the Atlantic Ocean.Template:Fn

Template:Fnb The text of the rather lengthy letter can be found at [4]. Its original is in Latin, the site contains the translation to Italian. The relevant passage is: "Cristobal mi rivelò che si stava dirigendo verso le coste inglesi ... una ricchezza pochi giorni prima insperata".

A translation into English of the key sentences follows: “Cristobal told me that we were going towards the English coasts (Footnote: Armand defines as “English coast” the territory of Galway in Western Ireland) and when I asked him why we were taking this unexpected way around, he told me that during navigation […] he had come across some sea currents that seemed to come from the remote and unknown West and which, in his opinion, had to touch the English coasts. He though that if really India was in the West, any object coming from there could have crossed the ocean and, drifting, reached the beaches where the currents were going. […]”

Some paragraphs later, the discovery of the dead bodies is described in great detail. There is a footnote saying: From the study of the biography of Columbus, one can see effectively that the trip to the Faroer islands did not stop there. […] Without any doubt, in this trip, he reached Western Ireland: In Galway, he saw, on some drifting ships, dead people, of unknown stature and kind, whom he identified with Chinese (from Cathay), and who, rather, were probably Laponians or Indians.

The bodies were found in the island of Flores, Azores, Portugal. Don fernando Colon writes in Chapter IX Flores, la cual es una de las islas de los Azores, hallaron en la orilla dos hombres muertos, cuya cara y traza era diferente de los de sus costas. 81.193.8.173 11:00, 5 April 2006 (UTC)Manuel Rosa, Columbus Historian

Improvement drive

Spice trade has been nominated to be improved by Wikipedia:This week's improvement drive. Come and support the article with your vote!--Fenice 06:08, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

Pear-shaped

I think it should be noted (with full citations, of course) that Christopher Columbus believed the world to be pear-shaped. violet/riga (t) 21:30, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

This page is too long and tedious

This page needs to be shortened into a more brief description so as to make it possible for you students to read without getting bored to death.

I think this was supposed to give a decent overview of this man's complicated life. "Tedious" books were written about him that are much much longer. Thanks for your comments. Dominick 13:27, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

What about the Vikings???? And the Native Americans???

Brittany

there are other articles linked from this page. Enjoy following them! Dominick 23:05, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Macuro

I would particularly mention in the third voyage section, that in that expedition it was the only time when one of his expeditions actually disembarked in the continent (as opposed to an island). This was in Macuro: http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macuro (from the Spanish Wiki). --Anagnorisis 05:41, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Columbus or Colon the real name!

First. his name appears written on the Papal Bulls as Cristofõm Colon.(Portuguese name)

Second. This Papa Bulls had been written by the Pope Alexander VI and he ordered to publish four Papal briefs related with the discovery of America.(they are in the Vatican Library)

Third. We must notice that the texts of the 4 Papal briefs are written in Latin. It was to wait that the name of the navigator was in Latin, Christopher Columbus, but it is not.

We could wait that the name was in Italian, a time who the Papal brief was published in Rome, Cristoforo Columbus, but also it is not.

Or then in Spaniard, Cristobal Colon, a time that the Papal briefs had been directed to the Kings Catholics, but also it is not.

The name that appears in the Papal briefs has the archaic, old form, of the Portuguese name Cristofõm Colon that gave to origin the Cristóvão Colon. This is that it is the true name of the navigator

See this site: http://www.dightonrock.com/columbus_was_100_portuguese.htm

(FORMATTING) Dominick ^(TALK) 04:14, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

LOL

Historian Harrison Osaki has recently added speculation that Columbus was not a man, but a super-intelligent robot from the future who travelled back to 15th Century Europe. Osaki believes that the robot who would become known as Christopher Columbus was actually built in Davesylvania (present-day Brazil) in the year 4673 by cyborg Parakeets and sent back in time to alter the future to their liking. This theory has been met with considerable opposition, especially when Osaki speculated that Columbus flagship, the Santa Maria, was actually created through a transformation of robo-Columbus' posterior.

LOL. I think mr. Osaki is in trouble, that idea is from The Terminator, I think there are copyright issues.--Pedro 20:16, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Sea monsters?

Didn't Columbus encounter opposition to his plan based on the idea that the Atlantic was infested with sea monsters? How long were Atlantic sea monster myths held to be true? I really need to get this confirmed or denied for the article on Himilco the Navigator, as he originated some of the accounts sea monsters. Please help.

Nick

  p.s. don't vandalize my comment again please

The real nationality

 Although what is teached in all world is that Cristopher Columbus is genovese, there are lot´s of info that may contradict this information. I cannot believe he was born in Genoa because he doesn´t speak italian. There was a Cristoforo Colombo that was born in fact in 1451, but I think you are mixing with the REAL  Cristoforo Colombo, born in 1447, told by himself!! I believe he was or portuguese or catalan..

This sity (unfortunely in Portuguese) tries to claim he is..portuguese.. http://lusotopia.no.sapo.pt/indexPTColombo.html http://www.apol.net/dightonrock/columbus_was_100_portuguese.htm (in english)

Colongate: Barreto & Columbus' Braganza-French Connections

Barreto's thesis about Columbus/Colom/Colon being of Portuguese origin is total rubbish. Ferdinand and Las Cases both emphasize that Columbus entered into Portuguese society from the outside. I seem to recall that Barreto also argues that Columbus was a secret royal bastard...a half-brother to the Duke of Viseu or a half-brother to Joao II. actually I think to the Duke who was a first cousin to the King. In any case, in the Columbus dispute or Colongate, there are also two other secret royal bastard theories...one Catalan, known as the Carlos de Viana connection...and another one which is Castilian, known as the Guadalajara theory. All these theories are rubbish.

I do not have or offer any solution to Columbus' strange cryptic-signature. If you or other scholars (especially persons of French-origin) wish to discuss all this more, do not hesitate to contact me via email.

Sincerely, Peter Dickson,

There is many other sites to prove that he´s catalan like this one http://www.bcngrafics.com/xpoferens/ (sorry, in spanish)

Ohio (don´t vandalize the claim, just try to disprove it)

No one is able to tell from where comes Columbus. He tried during his living to hide his real origins. His son Fernando himself write it in his book published in Venice, Italia, in 1571. (JMU)

January 4 or January 16?

Which day did Columbus set sail from Hispaniola for home? The article currently says January 4. One web page says January 16. The January 16 page lists "Columbus returning from his first voyage".

Calendar mismatch, or disagreement? References?

ATROCITIES

Many articles in the English Wikipedia are not neither neutral nor respectful to History. Some people think they can criticize and present their opinions as if they were god.

-Are they trying to change History?

-Are they trying to blame past events on whom?

-Are they trying to rewrite the History or just present the facts?

They are talking about atrocities and other issues. Every civilization, every country and every culture, as far as I know, has had a role in History. Maybe, we don't agree with it, but we can not turn back time. We should respect what their world and rules were at that time.

If you would like to criticize something, then speak up about this: atrocities are still taking place in our "civilized" world. Reflect on what those "bigger" and, supposedly, more civilized countries are doing this very minute.

Wikipedia is not and should not be the foro anyway. Jose.

I think that the "atrocities" need to be more strongly emphasized in this article. I wouldn't presume to judge the man--what good would it do?--but currently the article gives the impression that the genocide is either a debated issue, or otherwise inconsequential. There is debate as to how many Arawaks there were when Columbus arrived (estimates range from less than a million to eight million). It is not debated that they were all dead by 1650. Clearly this cannot be all laid at his feet, but to not mention it at all is very misleading. Tenebrous 20:08, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

POV

what exactly are the POV problems with this article so they can be addressed and the NPOV notice removed. Thanks Hmains 02:00, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

On the Vatican´s Library there are 2 papals buls to the kings of Spain that say «Christophom Colon» and «Cristofõm Colon».«phom» or «fõm» is the ancient Portuguese form of «vão» (Cristovão Colombo). The til (~) on the «o» is used only in the Portuguese language.Is name wasn't written in Latin,Spanish nor Italian, but yes in Portuguese. Whay? Because he was PORTUGUESE!!!! The Portuguese king João II wanted a better contract, so he sent his cousin Salvador Fernandes Zarco to Spain under the name Cristóvão Colon.He should convince the spanish kings to go west and distract them from the real way to India. He didn't accept all the propositions of finance his expedition if they werent from the spanish kings. The guy waited 7 years!

And don´t forget that Colombus called the islands he found with Portuguese names. For example, S.Salvador: he´s real name was Salvador; Santa Maria da Conceição: nor in Córdova, nor in Sevilha nor in Génova existed any church to that saint, but yes in Beja, the convent built by the prince D. Fernando (Colom's father) in 1467; Fernandina: it wasn't in honor of Fernando, king of Spain. Don't forget that his real name was Fernandes; Isabela: It could be in honor of queen Isabel of Spain, that suported him, but in that case, why didn't he caled Isabela to the third island? We can´t forget that his mother's name was Isabel da Câmara; Juanina: this is obvious. It was in honor of the Portuguese king D. João II. But, to not be suspicious, he changed it to Cuba, his homeland in Alentejo,Portugal. S.Bartolomeu, S.Vicente, S.Luís, Sta.Luzia, Guadiana, Porto Santo, Mourão, Isabel, Sta. Clara, S.Nicolau, Vera Cruz, Espírito Santo, Guadalupe, Conceição, Cabo de S. João, Cabo Roxo, S.Miguel, Sto.António, Sto.Domingo, Sta.Catarina, S.Jorge, Trindade, Ponta Galera, S.Bernardo, Margarida, Ponta de Faro, Boca de Touro, Cabo Isabel, ilha dos Guinchos, Salvador, Santarém, Cuba, Curaçao e Belém, and so on. Some may say that there are names that are both spanish an Portuguese, but names like Brasil, Santarém, Curaçao, Faro, Belém, Touro, and Ponta only exist in Portuguese.

Now, you're all talking about documents , latters an all, but a lot of them are fake. The name Cristoforo Colombo is fake, the will is fake and the so called Codicilo Militar is fake to. All the "evidences" that suporte the genoese theorie are, you gess, FAKE!!

colombus didn't explore the west part of Cuba because he was afraid that it might be a passage to India, and he didn't wanted the spanish to have it.

He used the storm to stop in Portugal and talk with D.João II and visit is family in Madeira.

And to the ones that still think he was a genoese, I tell you that no people person could be received by the kings of Spain.

In conclusion: HE IS PORTUGUESE!!!!!!!!! --M.F.

The tilde was the usual abbreviation of an n (and maybe an m) when writing in Latin and other languages. That is the origin of ñ (=nn).--Error 00:46, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

vandalism?

Repeated changes made to this article in the last few days may have introduced false information into this article and may have been vandalilsm. The last good edit that I can see for sure is by kbh3rd on 3 Feb. Anyone else have other ideas on this? Thanks Hmains 00:01, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Looking into that Manuel Rosa Umasking Columbus, it looks like someone's got some pet theories and is hawking a book. (Forgive me if I've characterized it wrongly; I'm merely reporting my first impressions.) If this is not peer-reviewed research that has widespread, though not necessarily universal, scholarly support, then it should be reverted, or at least marginalized as, "some crackpots posit that ...". Or words to that effect. ;-) I'm not a Columbus scholar and have this page on my watch list solely to revert the frequent obvious vandalism that occurs to it. I don't think I'm qualified to pass final judgement on these edits. --Kbh3^rdtalk 06:05, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Kbh3rd, it has taken me 15 years to research this subject and I am trying to point to a correct history all of which can be proven. If there are doubts this only means more research is needed. I am hoping that DNA tests I have proposed will soon answer all these questions. Peer-review can only be done by peers who have been able to break free from the false history prepatrated for 500 years. Was Hugo Assereto brought to a peer-review? Was Samuel Eliot Morison? Washington Irving? Henry Vignaud? NO.

Morison could not even translate five simple Spanish words pajaro puerco and rocin de madera dirty bird and wooden beast of burden respectively, translated by Morison as flying pig and wooden jade!!!!! Where was the peer-review for Ramón Menéndez Pidal when he criticized C.C.'s use of lhe as incorrect Portuguese in order to claim that C.C.'s mother toungue could not have been Portuguese? This while the very king of Portugal D. João II used the word lhe in his letters?

Yet people have no problem quoting these historians some of which had never read a book relating the history between Castile and Portugal - the only two kingdoms where it is known for certain that C.C. lived. Many don't even know that Isabel was not supposed to be Queen but that she stole the crown for her niece in 1475 and was allowed to keep it by an agreemnet with Portugal in 1479 and that after in 1483 Isabel tried to kill the king of Portugal using C.C.'s nephews as traitors. Who is faulting those C.C. historians for not mentioning that C.C. was, by marriage, uncle to 2 Counts and 1 Marquis in Portugal? That C.C. was uncle to the king's Lord Chamberlain and uncle to the Condestavel (Supreme Military Leader) of Portugal? All of them descendants of kings!

Who in their right mind would accept that a Genoese woolweaver, Cristoforo Colombo, who happened to have a totally diferent name than the pseudonome Cristoval Colon assumed by the discoverer, could be made uncle to royalty in the Middle Ages? Keep in mind that Galileo had a peer-review and was condemned by those peers who had not yet broken free of the false teachings they had been force-fed. The person attributed with discovering the New World used this name Cristoval Colon (Xpoval Colon) not Christopher Columbus. It may not be so obvious that the names are diffenrent but would you say that Lancelot Armstrung won the Tour de France? Furthermore he was not the Italian Cristoforo Colombo from Genoa as many historians have said. The fact is that there is no solid proof connecting Colon to that city. The only document that seemed to connect him, the supposed Testament dated 1498, was a document falsified after 1573 by the Genoese Baltasar Colombo to try and make himself a member of the Colon family. I have proof of this that will be published shortly. All the history relating to a Christopher Columbus should carry a qualifier that it is an assumed history without solid facts.82.154.144.230 01:10, 5 April 2006 (UTC) Manuel Rosa, Historian of Iberia. Still Unmasking Columbus.

Again, I won't make judgement calls that I'm not qualified to, but this makes me wonder if this runs afoul of the official Wikipedia policy on no original research? --Kbh3^rdtalk 03:29, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Kbh3rd I Understand. What was written (aside from proving the testament is false) is all documented and I can provide sources. Also What was inserted months ago by my coleagues was alreay published on the web. I believe soon we will have a new history. Keep in mind that DNA and Forensics have already discounted the Genoese Colombo family as being that of the Colon family since the age of the bones do not match.213.13.247.35 21:37, 8 April 2006 (UTC) Manuel Rosa

Colombus's Love Life

There was a section in this article a few days ago that talked about Colombus's wife and marriage, but it has been removed. Why is this? - Conrad Devonshire 02:47, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

The language of Cristoforo

Someone argue that Cristoforo Colombo (the true name) couldn't speak italian but spanish. You have to know that "modern" italian language wasn't diffused in Italy since 1700 (in 1860 only 2% of the Italian residents spoke Italian), and the lingua franca was Latin, old French, Spanish or local dialects (Genoese).

Italian aren't nationalist, unlike the Spaniards and the Portugueses, and if neutral and trustworthy historians say that Colombo was Italian that's the TRUTH. We don't need to defend his origin nor we have to construct strange and obstruse theory to argue that he was Italian, just come here in Ligury...

You don't think that is strange that only Portuguese or Spanish 'historians' build up alternative theories of the origin of Colombo?

And what about Marco Polo? Someone argue he was Croatian... (help!) We, Italians, are tired to have our heroes theft by other nationalities. Please, keep your heroes and let us keep ours. Thanks!

Yes, I thought Wikipedia was a serious online encyclopedia...

You make it sound as if people in Genoa did not know how to speak, read and write for they had no language of their own!!!! Yet you wish to also have us believe that C. Colon, a man who knew Latin, Castilian, Portuguese, Geometry, Astronomy, Cartography, Navigation and the Bible almost by heart would not know his native toungue if he had been born in Genoa???? Veery strange indeed! 213.13.243.47

Do you have any sources which could verify that Colombus was native (or at least familiar) to the Genoese dialect? Miskin 08:43, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, if it's undisputed that he grew up in Genoa, born to local parents, it's pretty obvious that he would be a speaker of the dialect, isn't it? Do we really need verification for that? (Just my outsider's 2c, I don't really want to get involved here.) Lukas ^(T.|@) 09:18, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

It's undisputed that he was born at some part of the wider Kingdom of Genoa, most likely outside of Italy. I'd like to see some proof that he was at least fluent with Genoese or any form of Italian. Miskin 09:39, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm ... If his origins are so undisputed as you claim, then why are we disputing this here? 213.13.243.47 05:06, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Damit, if he didn't speak the language then he's not from there. I got Italians in my neighbourhood that have been here (Canada) for 60 years and still don't speak english, only Italian. My point; if he was born there he would've spoke the language. Not to mention that he was most comfortable speaking in portuguese. Read the wiki article, it states that he would fall back on Portuguese words when speaking other languages. (RG)

Dear RG, then if Swiss people speaks French, German and Italian they don't are Swiss but French, German or Italian? Your argument is very strange... Genoese dialect resemble phonetically to Portuguese, that's why he hadn't difficulties to speak Portuguese or even Catalan, because of their phonetic or lexical similarities. More info on Genoese dialect here: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialetto_genovese. Colombo is of Ligurian origin, he was born and worked in Genoa.

Nobody is disputing that Cristoforo Colombo (the true name of a Genoese woolweaver) was from Genoa. We are disputing that Cristoval Colon was a Genoese. Believe me I spent many years trying make sense of the documents to prove he was a Genoese without sucess. There are always questions left in the end. So if you have the proof that Cristoval Colon the man who lived in Portugal and Castile, was a Genoese show it to me. Web-bot 11:15, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

It's damn dificult to speak catalan. I speak Portuguese and Spanish and French and I can't make out what a Catalan is saying. And since I'm more fluent in Portuguese, whenever I'm strugling for a Spanish word, I'll substitute it with a Portuguese one. In terms of 'Genoese dialect resemble phonetically to Portuguese', it's because it's Latin based, like Spanish, French, Italian, and Romanian. (RG)

Yet I assume you do realise that this falls under POV. Miskin 09:40, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Dear RG, you can speak whatever language you want, Colombo was born in Genoa and thus spoke Genoese dialect and most probably - because of his job - Provençal, Catalan, old Spanish and old Portuguese. This is not a theory, but a very probable fact. More 'real' facts on Colombo at: http://www.cristobal-colon.net/Colon/C03p7.htm. It is interesting to note that lexically speaking many Genoese words are closer to Portuguese than to Italian: cömbo (Gen.) and pombo (Por.) mean 'pigeon', cô (Gen.) and côr (Por.) mean 'color', ægua (Gen.) and agua (Port.) mean 'water', and so on...

This entire business is nationalist foolishness. I don't mean to blame contributors here because apparently a lot of the documents that tried to pin down his birth were forgeries. This article would have to explore all of the theories without claiming that any one of them is correct. What is most interesting is what is known about him for fact, and I think you have to go back to the sources for that. Right now the article is rubbish because it washes over all of the possibilities. 59.112.33.143 12:10, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Colombo married a Portuguese woman of high nobility, Felipa Perestrello Moniz. If he were "only" a poor wool weaver - more than remarkable! Were social classes so permeable? Colombo "worked" for King João II of Portugal and took part in the discoveries in Afrika. King João II of Portugal declared the Portuguese explorations of main priority in his government and wanted to discover the maritime route to India. The maritime knowledge of the Portugueses was the biggest "state secret" since 1419 Henry the Navigator, the second son of King João I. of Portugal established a naval observatory at Sagres - that's why so little is known! And of course because of the earthquake + tsunami + fires in 1755. If Colombo were not Portuguese, but took part in the discoveries - he took part in the biggest "Portuguese secret" - quite remarkable! Why did King João II of Portugal trust him and called him in a letter 1488 "our special friend”? The possibility that Colombo was Portuguese is as rubbish as the possibility that Colombo was Italian, pero se non è vero, è ben trovato! :-) --Sei Shonagon 04:14, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

I find it strange that one can use analysis of his handwriting to determine what nationality a person was!!!! Even if C.C. wrote in Chinese letters one could not decide that he was a Chinese. The thought that handwriting analysis was chosen over the content of the letter which carries a Portuguese flavor, as all historians know, means they were grasping at straws to make a Catalan theory work. Even if there was a way to prove that a person's handrwriting was Catalan, which there isn't, how can one be certain C.C. had not simply been thought by a Catalan working in Portugal for instance? Web-bot 10:53, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Description of Columbus' signature

Under National Origin appears an image of Columbus' signature. The caption under this picture reads:

Sanctus, Sanctus, Altissimus, Sanctus, son of Mary & Joseph, Salvador Fernandes Zarco

However, the last line of the signature clearly reads:

:ΧροFERENS._/ → Chi rho ferens → Christopher

Nowhere here is anything even remotely like the "Salvador Fernandes Zarco" mentioned in the accompanying Portuguese origin theory. --MrShoggoth 15:08, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

• also from this page on the net :[5]
• The explorer’s cryptic signature, “XpoFERENS Colon” as we decipher it, indicates that he was a member of the super-secretive Templar Military Order of Christ, which had a stronghold in Portugal at the time leading up to his voyage. As a member, like his father-in-law and brothers-in-law, he was dedicated to ridding the world of Muslims, who had occupied his country several centuries before.

another inconsistency found in the Italian version, that can be used in the article:

• The Italian named Cristoforo Colombo (Christopher Columbus), long presumed to be the legendary explorer, was only a poor woolcarder in Genoa as claimed by every historian. He lacked the noble station required to marry nobility, as the explorer Colon did long before his historic voyage. There is no uncontested evidence that the explorer knew how to speak Italian, or had any substantial connection to that country.
• BTW:
• DNA on Christopher Columbus's son Don Hernando is currently being tested in Spain, Italy and Portugal to see if a match to a family can be found.

--Pedro 16:11, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

this is Dr. Manuel Luciano da Silva's interpretaion of the name here http://www.dightonrock.com/ -- [ : XpõFERENS . / ]

Xpo = Christ

and / = Colon -- Bearer of Christ

and -- Christ = Saviour = Salvador (in Portuguese) FEREN = Messanger but also reduced form of Fernandes (son of Fernam) S -- in fact an inverterted lambda = Z of Zarco see also this analysis (Port) --BBird 22:05, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

• there are still known members of the zarco family alive in Portugal (mainland, Azores and Madeira). http://www.dightonrock.com/Beja-Portuguese.htm But how they know it is the same family, there are a lot of families with my surname... --Pedro 00:38, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

./ Salvador Fernandes Zarco y Colonna

The cryptic signature of C.C. can be deciphered the following way and has yet to be proven since there was never located a document in Portugal that a Salvador Fernandes Zarco y Colona ever existed. However the fact is that C.C. used this signature to mean something that only he and a few close to him knew.

C.C. signed as Xpo FERENS . /

Xpo = Christo in Greek

FERENS = from the Latin verb Fero meaning to ferry but is probably an anagram for FERNES a contraction of Fernandes (meaning son of Fernando). The proper form of the name should have been pher and C.C. always wrote in CAPS making it unusual for a first name ChristoFERENS instead of Christopher.

. / = our semi-colon ; which was used by C.C. to replace Colon.

The last S of FERENS was usually written by C.C. to stand out leading some to believe it was the Hebraic Zarqa a sideways S used in Music. Zarqa is feminine and Zarqo is masculine.

Thus we have Christo Fernandes Zarqa Colon. Since the name Cristo was not used as a proper name it is subsituted by Christ's other name Salvador Savior and since Zarco was married to a distant relative of Pope Martin V Odonne Colonna we make the leap to:

Salvador Fernandes Zarco y Colonna

Working backwards we can see that a Salvador or a Savior brings Christ and is therefore a Christopher or Cristovam Pt. Cristobal Sp. and since C.C. was trying to hide his lineage of Zarco he used his great-grandmother's name of Colonna and shortened it to have the same sound as the Greek Kolon meaning member as clarified by his son Fernando. Now it stands to be proven and DNA can be the only true tool to do confirm or deny it.81.193.8.173 11:01, 5 April 2006 (UTC) Manuel Rosa,in Unmasking Columbus

Quote from Columbus' journal

If no one has objections, i will include the following entry from his journal : source Thomas Friedman's book The World is Flat. suggestions on where this shld go in the article?

"Your Highnesses, as Catholic Christians, and princes who love and promote the holy Christian faith, and are enemies of the doctrine of Mahomet, and of all idolatry and heresy, determined to send me, Christopher Columbus, to the above-mentioned countries of India, to see the said princes, people, and territories, and to learn their disposition and the proper method of converting them to our holy faith; and furthermore directed that I should not proceed by land to the East, as is customary, but by a Westerly route, in which direction we have hitherto no certain evidence that anyone has gone.

– Entry from the journal of Christopher Columbus on his voyage of 1492" -gunslotsofguns 19:42, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Catalan Columbus?

I recently read that he may have been from Barcelona. Does any one have any info on this? I think we should discuss this but alas, I don't know much about the topic.

First Picture on Page

I think a new picture needs to be added. I do not like the ring around the picture of Columbus. mrmewe 15:58, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Fully agree. picture is awful and unaesthetic (and if it resembles Colon is another story).--BBird 13:11, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Columbus pic modified to make it more appelaling. I feel this is an important image since it is the only state sponsored painting of the discoverer. 81.193.239.144 23:34, 31 May 2006 (UTC)Manuel Rosa

The Portuguese Hypothesis

Do we really need this section at all? It all appears to have been added on March 29, 2006, by a non-registered user, presumably Manuel Rosa himself. And reading Mr. Rosa's webpage on the theory does not inpspire confidence at all: "This journey of discovery has led to a chase of the illusive truth in seven different countries from which we can distill the facts of a conspiracy of lies that is much larger in scope then anyone could have imagined. Everyone around this man, from kings to friends, lied about his true identity. For five hundred years there have been historians inventing details, forging documents; and countries maneuvering against one another in order to claim this Colombo because of the political and economic investments that were at stake."

This is the kind of conspiracy-theory nonsense that Wiki can do without. You can't prove anything by discounting all the evidence against you as "forgeries".

--Keithpickering 19:16, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm willing to mention the Rosa theory in passing, but it certainly doesn't deserve it's own section. --Keithpickering 19:18, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Hearing no objection, then, I'm removing the Portuguese Hypothesis section, replacing with a gloss under national origins.

Keithpickering, it seems that you have misunderstood the "discounting of the evidence" it will be proven shortly that the only document tying Colombo to Colon was falsified after 1573 by Baltasar Colombo. I never said Colon was a Portuguese only that he was working for the king of Portugal in Spain. 81.193.188.200 18:13, 20 April 2006 (UTC)ManuelRosa

In that case, you are violating NOR and the passage must be deleted. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:19, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Formatting mess

The first picture is not aligned correctly and there is a big chunk of white space at left. Can anyone sort this out? Carcharoth 15:20, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Recent changes created a propaganda like unilateral view

I left actively watching this article for a while and coming back I see a sad appropriation of this article by mainstream Genoese theory and "the master said" kind of statements which I frankly regret. I read several books and theories about Colon and the one sure thing is that he was a mystery man. He could be from Genoa but also from many other places. The mystery comes from facts, sentences, and fake documents (invariably those that support the Genoa theory and were produced after the Italian reunification. I don't want to go on balancing this article on my own, but I am sure it became less informative and less wikipedian. Just my HO. thanks. --BBird 21:59, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Thank You BBird for the voice of reason. I don't want top negate eviodence that is proven truthful and correct only that which is doubful and never proven to be factual. 81.193.42.61 11:38, 14 May 2006 (UTC) MANUEL ROSa

The only people who want Colombo to be Spaniard, are Spaniards themselves and some stupid Americans (special mention for the pseudo historian Merrill something) who don't actually know where Europe is placed on a map and claim to know all about European history. We are sick of the stupidity of the American people and their 'conspiracy theory' of everything... Please, shut up! Ferdinand Valtran — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.14.122.164 (talk • contribs)

Dear Ferdinand Valtran, what do you actually know about the true history of Cristoval Colon? I don't mean the Cristoforo Colombo, the one from Genoa that everyone tries to fit into the clothes of the Admiral but the actual Cristoval Colon who sailed across the Atlantic. Have you ever found 1 document that proves the Admiral ever called himself Colombo? That anyone in the court of Spain ever called him Colombo? Any document that is orignal and uncontested that proves Colombo and Colon are one and the same person? If so please present it otherwise hold your judgement of things you have no knowledge of. 213.13.245.202 12:58, 26 May 2006 (UTC)Manuel Rosa

More formatting problems

The formatting of the "Columbus' name in various languages" section needs repairing. It is currently messing up the following section - see here for an example of when it looks really bad. Carcharoth 10:04, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

That's my fault. I don't quite know how to fix it, but you should've seen it before! I think it was in a seperate floated box on the right. I'm not even sure if we need that whole section, quite frankly. Wes! &#149; ^T_c 23:26, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree, though I do have a soft spot for that sort of thing after trying to track down variations of Ptolemy for Ptolemy (name). Still haven't found Egyptian or demotic forms... Carcharoth 02:12, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Spam

Could someone please remove the spam at the top of the page? The smiley faces are annoying and kind of dumb.

japan in the columbus theories section

whats the point of the japan reference in this article? at that time, no one was trying to sail to japan and japan was of no importance in the world. we all know everyone was after china and india, not japan.

Did you recieve any awards or serve in any wars?

Kidnapped???

Where is the proof for Columbus kidnapping indians? Why would he kidnap them if he thought "love would convert them to christanity?"