Talk:De Wallen

Location, history, name

As of April 2010, this § contains only location information, essentially names of streets. Has this entry suffered from another "revert war"? 170.63.96.108 (talk) 18:18, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Since it now only states "Location", I just changed the section title to reflect that. The "history and name" part is important (that's why I came to read the article in the first place, actually) so it would be really nice to find a source for the "since XIV century" claim... 195.23.92.1 (talk) 11:31, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Human trafficking

Although the "human trafficking" part is good, wouldn't it fit better in Prostitution in the Netherlands and a smaller summary of that in this article. It just doesn't seems specific enough for de wallen, but more for prostitution in general Garion96 15:00, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

I would like to point out that this article has racist overtones and that has no place on Wikipedia. This article is supposed to be about one Red Light District, instead more than half of the article is devoted to heresy about Turks, Morroccans, and a horror story about completely fabricated statistics. Some women are coaxed into it, but many are not. Some "boyfriends" may be Turkish or Morroccan, but most are not, and this kind of racially-biased conjecture has no place in an Encyclopedia. If I posted similar completely false statistics and racially biased commentary in any other part of the site, it would be removed, so I trust the same legitimacy will be given to this particular article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.186.143.4 (talk) 04:52, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. A lot of the Wikipedia articles on this subject are currently very POV towards attempting to give the impression that most of the window prostitutes in the Netherlands are controlled by pimps/human trafficking/organised crime gangs even though this claim is disputed by organisations such as the PIC. Indeed the whole point of having prostitution legal and regulated is to try and stamp out the exploitation of prostitutes by pimps. While noone is claiming that the problem has been completely eradicated the police do keep a very close watch on the RLD's and have never been able to establish that exploitation is taking place on the scale that some are claiming. 86.112.87.9 (talk) 22:08, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

The information from the PIC is as unreliable as all the other 'hearsay evidence' since they have a strong pro-prostitution bias. and will therefore likely downplay indications of forced prostitution and human trafficking.

as for legality weeding out trafficking: the problem is that most women who chose the profession more or less out of their own free will want to work anonymously (to prevent 'getting a reputation'). so the only women willing to work in a highly visible field of prostitution like on the wallen are foreigners and women forced into prostitution: they either don't know have any friends/family in amsterdam or they are so afraid of their loverboy that they are willing to risk being exposed.

rascism? f*ck off. if the statistics say that most loverboys are from a certain country than no amount of screaming niggerman will change that.Selena1981 (talk) 00:06, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

True

Yeah, that's right. But I've read the rules of Wikipedia recently and I discovered I could have broken the 'original research' guideline. What I've done is I researched an internetsite (www.hookers.nl) where prostitution-clients write about their experiences with prostitutes. There's a lot of interesting information there. For instance about the age and nationality of the prostitutes. There's no report where you can find such information!!! By analyzing this site I have gained much more insight into the world of prostitution. I've also used the chatter done by prostitutes and clients on this site (including me). You know, I am a prostitute-client myself. But anyway, if you happen to speak Dutch and you research prostitution, visit www.hookers.nl. You can check things for yourself. I think I'll expand Prostitution in the Netherlands too. I'll be as neutral as possible. --Bruno Junqueira 23:28, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

i agree that such customer-review websites are a good way of getting an honest opinion from the client's side of things (which is not to say it's 100% reliable concerning forced prostitution, since i think most 'walkers' don't want to see themselves as 'jerk who takes advantage of a woman in need') Selena1981 (talk) 00:06, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

No Original Research

I’ve definitively broken the ‘no original research’-rule. I removed all the data about the ages and nationalities of prostitutes. I researched those myself. I also removed references to certain alleys. I obtained that data from what a prostitute told me.

All the data in my contribution to this article can now be verified. But.... I have to offer some additional notes. The Scharlaken Koord states that out of 439 Dutch window-prostitutes on the Wallen they had contact with in 2001, 380 indicated they were brought into prostitution by a loverboy. That’s not a fabrication created by a fundamentalist Christian organisation. This is confirmed by many other sources. A police officer named Manon Niemeijr has spoken with a lot of window-prostitutes in the ‘Spijkerkwartier’, a red-light district in Arnhem (source: ’Verlicht Kwartier, 40 jaar Arnhemse spijkerbuurt’ by Kees Crone). She confirms most Dutch women behind the windows were introduced into prostitution by a loverboy. And above all, I had the chance to ask two (former) window-prostitutes if this was true (original research!!!). They both confirmed it. But they stressed that most girls get rid of their pimp very early on in their career and only a few are still under the spell of a pimp. --Bruno Junqueira 09:12, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

yeah. but if you had continued asking questions after you got the answers you wanted ('i started because of my boyfriend [so i'm a victim, not a to-lazy-to-work woman entering prostitution to get a gucchi-handbag], but now i continue because i just like whoring myself so much') you might have gotten a different research-outcome.

the problem is that prostitutes are flooded with 'researchers' and 'writers' and 'journalists' who all claim to be doing research. as a pretext for talking with prostitutes about sex. they are also regularly approached by men claiming to want to order their services and then backing out at the last moment (therefore prostitutes are wary of being used as a free phone-sex substitute) the phenomenon is such that: a: such talk costs you money. prostitutes don't gives interviews for free and they don't spent an hour on the phone discussing sex and whoring without getting paid for their time. b: these prostitutes know damn well that these 'writers' are just horny boys looking for wank-off material, but lacking the ball to outright 'go to a prostitute'. these guys don't want to hear about prostitutes being enslaved, they want to hear about prostitutes who are fond of sex. who have 'made their hobby into their work' c: even if a prostitute wants to be honest there might be cognitive dissonance involved. if she is still under the influence of a loverboy she will claim (and honestly believe) that the guy that is pulling her strings is her boyfriend and not her pimp. and therefore claim to 'be doing the work because i want to, not because i'm forced to do it' Selena1981 (talk) 00:32, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

POV?

This article doesn't really talk about De Wallen as much as it seems to talk about pimps and human trafficking. Seems to me like these extra things are thrown in here to negatively color what might otherwise be a simple article about a famous place. 65.3.134.219 02:26, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Heyyy, you are absolutely right!!!! I see this article has been totally revamped with all the negative sides been removed, with some new additions about windows being removed without the background-story of all this. It's fine with me. I'm not too interested in Wikipedia anymore. Lately a (largely) Turkish gang has been rounded up who (also) forced women to work on De Wallen. Also some streets are mentioned: De Trompettersteeg, de Sint Annenstraat and de Sint Annendwarsstraat, de surroundings of de Monnikenstraat and de Oude Kennissteeg - plus de burgwallen (you can find it in articles in Het Parool on www.parool.nl, the specific article is http://archief.parool.nl/artikel?text=seksslaven&SORT=presence&ED=ola&PRD=2y&SEC=%2A&FDOC=9). I believe this kind of (negative) information should be mentioned on wikipedia, but especially which article?Bruno Junqueira 13:21, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

it's useful to understand WHY the amsterdam city-government would want to close down de wallen. there is an ongoing debate as to whether or not most women 'behind the window' are forced into prostitution. is it a good place for prostitutes, where they can ply their trade without any fear of criminal prosecution? or is it a place filled with degrading sex-slavery, where the police idly stands by? one of the complaints of the latter group is that for far to long it was 'not done' to talk about the idea that prostitution-related crime might not be isolated incidents, but rather something that is a natural result of the fundamentally degrading nature of prostitution. and therefore it is important to establish how big crime in on de wallen: are it isolated incidents or is there a fundamental problem? Selena1981 (talk) 00:51, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

Accuracy? about closing down live sex shows

I came to this page to see what sorts of things Amsterdam has to offer, but am really disappointed to see a long article about the sex industry rather than the Red Light District itself. Most of it is irrelevant, and a lot seems uncited and inaccurate. For example - saying Banana Bar and Casa Rosso was shut down: I walked past both today and they were still very active. Does this article just need to be restarted from scratch? 194.171.56.13 (talk) 10:21, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Banana Bar and Casa Rosso are still open and operating as normal, as of 23rd October 2009, I know because I visited both over the weekend. 92.12.18.39 (talk) 15:37, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Legality

"Prostitution is legal in the Netherlands, with the exception of street prostitution. However, only EU citizens can work legally in the sex industry, since no working permits are given for prostitution."

This excerpt is vague to me. When is prostitution legal? What is the difference between the legal prostitution and "street prostitution"? Slepsta (talk) 02:40, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

First statue

I believe there is a statue of a hooker on the University of Macquarie campus that was installed prior to 2007. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.30.153.171 (talk) 18:41, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

City government actions of 2007/2008

The "zipcode" (actually ZIP code, an acronym for Zone Improvement Program) is an Americanism. I suggest "postal code." Dick Kimball (talk) 14:09, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Number of windows

How many prostitution-windows is there in De Wallen now in 2010? This article says approximately 300 at the beginning of the article, but then it says 60 further down in the article.. So what is correct? Oppmann (talk) 20:46, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Definitely less than 300 active windows now. Even 60 is probably an over estimate at this stage. There have been big changes in that part of town over the last few years. Most of the remaining windows are in a small area around Oudekerksplein and the narrow lanes (e.g. Sint Annenstraat) nearby.89.242.194.4 (talk) 21:20, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

There are far more windows than 60. I live in Koestraat in De Wallen and walk through the neighbourhood every day. the website ignatzmice.com though a little out of date has diagramatic plans of the streets that have windows. I can say without fear of being wrong that there are closer to 300 than 60 operating windows in De Wallen. They won't all be open every night, there is a seasonal nature to the trade. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.161.209.243 (talk) 12:44, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Removal of sourced information by ip 213.46.146.247 and report by UNODC

You need to stop removing sourced information from the article.

This UNODC report states clearly at page 63 that NL is a top destination for trafficking:http://www.unodc.org/documents/human-trafficking/HT-globalpatterns-en.pdf

The report reads:

"With reference to the citation index, ten countries in the Trafficking Database score very high as reported destinations for trafficked victims. Five of these countries are in Western Europe (in alphabetical order): Belgium, Germany, Greece, Italy and the Netherlands. Among Asian countries that score very high are Israel and Turkey (Western Asia and Turkey); Japan (Eastern Asia); Thailand (South-Eastern Asia). The other very highly reported destination country is the United States (North America)"2A02:2F0A:505F:FFFF:0:0:BC19:9F0F (talk) 20:44, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

You need to see the earlier talk topics above referencing problems with POV and racism in this article, which is unacceptable and not informative about the historic geographical area of the Wallen. As discussed earlier information more generally suited to the Prostitution in Netherlands article or not referring to the Wallen specifically should be moved. 213.46.146.247 (talk) 08:48, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

NL isn't just a "potential destination" or a "destination" for trafficking as you have written (nearly all countries are), but it is a top destination: the UNODC report classifies countries as scorring "very high"; "high"; "medium"; "low"; and "very low" as destinations. And NL is classified as "very high" - so I'm sorry, but you'll have to get used to it, and you need to stop attempting to slant the article by misrepresenting facts. 188.25.159.151 (talk) 13:32, 21 October 2013 (UTC)