Talk:Bolesław II the Bold: Difference between revisions

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the Bold, the Cruel or the Generous?

Since it has been estabilished on Talk:Boleslaus_I_of_Poland#Move and Talk:List_of_Polish_monarchs#Naming to use Bolesław instead of Boleslaus, I will just test the three royal nicknames and list other without counting for redirect creation purposes:

Boleslaw II/Bolesław II (all 'B II's are a disambig)
Boleslav II - 1400
Boleslaus II - 526
- all 'B II's are a disambig so they don't caunt

Boleslaw II Smialy/Bolesław II Śmiały - 383
Boleslav II Smialy - 55
Boleslaus II Smialy - none
Boleslaw Smialy/Bolesław Śmiały - 1190
Boleslav Smialy - 22
Boleslaus Smialy - none

Boleslaw II Okrutny/Bolesław II Okrutny - 12
Boleslav II Okrutny - none
Boleslaus II Okrutny - none
Boleslaw Okrutny/Bolesław Okrutny - 8
Boleslav Okrutny - none
Boleslaus Okrutny - none

Boleslaw II Szczodry/Bolesław II Szczodry - 30
Boleslav II Szczodry - none
Boleslaus II Szczodry - none
Boleslaw Szczodry/Bolesław Szczodry - 20
Boleslav Szczodry - none
Boleslaus Szczodry - none

Boleslaw of Poland/Bolesław of Poland
Boleslav of Poland
Boleslaus of Poland
- those should be a disambig, see Talk:Boleslaus_I_of_Poland#Move for numbers

Boleslaw II of Poland/Bolesław II of Poland - 45
Boleslav II of Poland - 9
Boleslaus II of Poland - 1420
- 1500

Boleslaw the Bold/Bolesław the Bold - 381
Boleslav the Bold - 224
Boleslaus the Bold - 1330
Boleslaw II the Bold/Bolesław II the Bold - 265
Boleslav II the Bold - 89
Boleslaus II the Bold - 758
- 3000

Boleslaw the Cruel/Bolesław the Cruel - 44
Boleslav the Cruel - 141
Boleslaus the Cruel - 147
Boleslaw II the Cruel/Bolesław II the Cruel - none
Boleslav II the Cruel - none
Boleslaus II the Cruel - none
300

Boleslaw the Generous/Bolesław the Generous - 10
Boleslav the Generous - none
Boleslaus the Generous - 285
Boleslaw II the Generous/Bolesław II the Generous - 9
Boleslav II the Generous - none
Boleslaus II the Generous - 428
- 700

Although Boleslaus seems to be more popular then Bolesław (4200:2800), the difference is not that large, and for standarization I want to use Boleslaw (besides, it would be stupid to have Bolesław I the Brave and Boleslaus II the Bold, if they had the same first name, right?). The Bold beats the Cruel and the Generous easily (3000:300:700). Therefore if there are no objections, I'd like to move this to Bolesław II the Bold.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 16:40, 26 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Move request

Bolesław II the Bold to Boleslaus II of Poland. We do not use nicknames without extraordinary reasons. I propose the systematic name for this king. (He was one of the rarer monarchs of early period who was a recognized King). First name should be written in English, not in Polish. This was a medieval monarch, no one cannot claim that Boleslaw is precisely his original name spelling, spelling was not so established at that time. Marrtel 18:41, 12 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Poll

Write Support or Oppose and an optional one-sentence reason. Longer parts of opinions then below at discussion.

Support. As nominator. Marrtel 18:42, 12 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose So far I have seen the user opposes names based on opinion that they were made by "Polish nationalist minority"[1]. Such rude comments should be outside of wiki and certainly not a basis for changes.--Molobo 19:51, 12 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. The current title is bad, but I don't like the latinization/pseudo-anglicization "Boleslaus", which is not commonly used. john k 20:03, 12 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- What are "pseudo-anglicizations"? AjaxSmack 03:04, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. There's no need to change, but I'd prefer Bolesław II of Poland (or even Boleslaw II of Poland) to the proposal. Dpv 20:27, 12 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. The man is well known by his epithet, the Bold or Szczodry. Angus McLellan (Talk) 20:32, 12 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Boleslaus is a bad latinization, Bolesław is much more popular (see stats above). 'the Bold' is much more informative and popular then 'of Poland', see above stats too.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 21:50, 12 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose/Comment I haven't been heavily involved on the use of cognomens in Wikipedia, especially with Polish monarchs, but I've seem very few instances of early monarchs with first names in one language and cognomens in the other. I support a move to the appropriate anglicization of the first name, seemingly Boselaw II of Poland. Charles 21:51, 12 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Support. A tough one indeed. There is more than one "Boleslaus II" in history and there's no reason the Polish one reigns supreme. Therefore, a qualifier is needed on his name and ordinal. If a nickname, why not move Boleslav II of Bohemia to Bolselaus II the Pious? Or any other king to his nickname instead of "of Kingdom"? For consistency across Wikipedia, Boleslaus II of Poland is better than the current title and while there may be a better title than that, it has not really been propsed. Just because ordinals can be confusing does not mean we can always avoid them: see Guaimar III of Salerno and Guaimar IV of Salerno. Also, as to Molobo's comments, while the notion of a "Polish cabal" and the accusations of "Polish nationalism" are less than good faith, I would say, it is not a good reason for voting against a proposal that the proponent has expressed such views. And finally, I hope to have proded a discussion on the larger issue of Polish monarchic nomenclature in general at Talk:List of Polish monarchs. Srnec 02:57, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Support per WP:Use English. AjaxSmack 03:04, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Polonising names in English Wikipedia without regard to the age is getting unhealthy. Then Lithuanian Jogaila gets the "most correct name" according to the Piotrus, Władysław II Jagiełło. Juraune 06:34, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Remember, please, that he has three viable nicknames, not just "the Bold." Perhaps someday one of the other nicknames will surpass "the Bold" in usage, but he will still be "of Poland". Srnec 02:58, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 83: / Line 83: @@
 *'''Support'''. A tough one indeed. There is more than one "Boleslaus II" in history and there's no reason the Polish one reigns supreme. Therefore, a qualifier is needed on his name and ordinal. If a nickname, why not move [[Boleslav II of Bohemia]] to [[Bolselaus II the Pious]]? Or any other king to his nickname instead of "of Kingdom"? For consistency across Wikipedia, Boleslaus II of Poland is better than the current title and while there may be a better title than that, it has not really been propsed. Just because ordinals can be confusing does not mean we can always avoid them: see [[Guaimar III of Salerno]] and [[Guaimar IV of Salerno]]. Also, as to [[User:Molobo|Molobo]]'s comments, while the notion of a "Polish cabal" and the accusations of "Polish nationalism" are less than good faith, I would say, it is not a good reason for voting against a proposal that the proponent has expressed such views. And finally, I hope to have proded a discussion on the larger issue of Polish monarchic nomenclature in general at [[Talk:List of Polish monarchs]]. [[User:Srnec|Srnec]] 02:57, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
 *'''Support''' per [[Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English)|WP:Use English]]. [[User:AjaxSmack|AjaxSmack]] 03:04, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
+*'''Support'''. Polonising names in English Wikipedia without regard to the age is getting unhealthy.  Then Lithuanian [[Jogaila]] gets the "most correct name" according to the Piotrus, [[Władysław II Jagiełło]]. [[User:Juraune|Juraune]] 06:34, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
 ===Discussion===