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WT:MED

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List of archives

Merged Archive WikiProject Preclinical medicine: 1
Merged Archive WikiProject Clinical medicine: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11
WikiProject Medicine Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100, 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 108, 109, 110, 111, 112, 113, 114, 115, 116, 117, 118, 119, 120, 121, 122, 123, 124, 125, 126, 127, 128, 129, 130, 131, 132, 133, 134, 135, 136, 137, 138, 139, 140, 141, 142, 143, 144, 145, 146, 147, 148, 149, 150, 151, 152, 153, 154, 155, 156, 157, 158, 159, 160, 161, 162, 163, 164, 165, 166, 167, 168, 169, 170, 171, 172

Recent changes in WP:Medicine

Articles and their talkpages:

Not mainspace:

Top	High	Mid	Low	NA	???	Total
101	1,073	11,572	38,994	7,528	1,299	60,567

List overview · Lists updated: 2015-07-15 · This box:

GOMER

GOMER could use some work. I remember a book I read saying it was more applied to the lonely who had lost their "humanness" and just came to the ER for human attention. I forget what book it was, but it might have been the one by Robert Martensen (RIP). Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 06:50, 10 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I have added a reference. Axl ¤ [Talk] 11:39, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Consensus on archiving threads >5 days

Would like to archive threads > 5 days per consensus previously reached. Talk page is getting unwieldy and slow to load. However will not do this if reverted. Is there still consensus on archiving threads > 5 days? --LT910001 (talk) 07:52, 15 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not a big fan of 5 day archiving, but I can see no viable alternative. I would ideally like answered threads to be archived faster, and unanswered threads to stay longer, but the bot doesn't discriminate like this. Lesion (talk) 12:04, 15 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This page is not that long... Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 12:32, 15 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough. --LT910001 (talk) 12:42, 15 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

If you notice a thread that has obviously been firmly resolved, it's OK to cut and paste it into the current archive. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 15:34, 15 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Is any bot even archiving at the moment? Most of the archive bots are down. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:43, 15 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Archiving here has been off. Five days is premature, and open topics are being archived. Install the one step archiver (see my contribs for how to find it), and use it to selectively prune the page of topics that are truly done, or where there is consensus to archive, and let open topics stay longer (say 10 days at least, particularly since the Project has gone moribund and we aren't getting responses on lots of things). The page is NOT that long, and stuff is getting missed. And, this business of no third-level headings is what is making the page a mess. Restore normal talk page headings. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:20, 16 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Could we make it a point to acknowledge when threads are resolved and signal when they are not?

{{Resolved}}
Resolved
{{Unresolved}}
Unresolved
{{done}} Done
{{Not done}} Not done

I agree with Sandy - pending topics should stay 10 days at least but things which are revolved could be archived sooner. Blue Rasberry (talk) 17:26, 16 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Will marking a thread resolved/unresolved be recognized by the bot? Lesion (talk) 19:02, 16 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think so, but it will allow us to One-click manually archive it, which should allow us to a) restore the third-level section headings, and b) keep open threads longer than 5 or 7 seven days (say 14, which is more normal). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:10, 16 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I'll remember to do this. If you want 3rd level headings feel free to restore them.

It doesn't seem like it would be difficult to have a bot which discriminate between sections marked with resolved and those that have not. Since there are bot archiving issues atm, this suggestion probably is best not broached for a while, but I think it would be a good long term goal to aim for. I've noticed that with the current set up, unanswered threads sometimes go unanswered and then disappear into the archives. It would be good to avoid this. Lesion (talk) 19:27, 16 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I read this page almost entirely as diffs, so the presence or absence of some or all of the TOC is really pretty irrelevant to me, as is the overall size of the page. I suspect that I'm not the only one who does this, either.

On a related point, this is one of the problems that WP:Flow is supposed to solve. Active conversations will always move to the top of the page. Inactive ones will always settle to the bottom. And comments that you personally have read can be automagically collapsed, so that you only need to look at new comments. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:29, 17 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Quick clarification: That setup and plan has changed since the original prototype. Flow will not be changing topic-order, at least in the initial releases - Topics will remain in chronological order of posting.

Additionally, features such as automagic collapsing of "read" comments are something that still needs to be investigated, as it is both database intensive, and potentially very confusing. (I'm walking out the door for a dinnerdate, else I'd hunt down specific FAQ/documentation links. HTH.) –Quiddity (talk) 05:32, 17 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think that anybody expects very much from the initial releases. But eventually, these are good ideas, and I hope that they're implemented (if possible without killing the servers, etc.). WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:06, 17 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Quiddity, is there a YouTube video on the concepts behind Flow? I'd like to easily digest what it is, but I don't know what it is. I don't comprehend its core purpose. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 12:18, 20 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@Biosthmors: There aren't any video recordings at the moment, partially because the devs are just finishing up the minimal feature set, but that's a good idea. I'll put "make a screencast" on the to-do list, so that we can do a rapid tour through new/changed features. –Quiddity (WMF) (talk) 01:15, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Another round of attempts to delete diagnostic images

User:Stefan2 per here Wikipedia:Possibly_unfree_files/2013_November_20#File:Hscbefore.jpg has put a diagnostic image up for deletion on Wikipedia. It is interesting as a very similar one uploaded by the same user was deemed to be fine here [1] Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 23:23, 20 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The other image was not deemed to be fine, but I was unaware of its existence. I only noticed the first one because you mentioned it on a page I happened to have on my watchlist (User talk:Sfan00 IMG#X-rays, then continued on your talk page). --Stefan2 (talk) 01:45, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I guess we can have another RfC regarding diagnostic image here if you wish. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 06:07, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

We need to take a stand against Stefan2 and his supporters. Axl ¤ [Talk] 14:03, 22 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Move Safe sex to Safer sex?

Comments are needed on this matter: Talk:Safe sex#Requested move. Flyer22 (talk) 00:56, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved

More comments would be welcome, but this talk has gotten four responses already. Blue Rasberry (talk) 14:56, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Human Nutrition help

I have been editing human nutrition as part of a class assignment in recent months, and am seeking feedback and advice on Human Nutrition. The article was previously exclusively made up of the same exact content as Nutrition, and as tagged as so. I am wondering if any of that content should remain there or not? How can I get the banner to be removed? I have been adding content to provide a social perspective to understanding access to nutrition, nutritional status of countries internationally, organizations involved with nutrition, and the prevalence and effects of malnutrition. Any feedback, edits, additions, or guidance would be appreciated. thank you! Lbockhorn (talk) 00:59, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Bad title, merge and delete. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:05, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your response. However, I have been advised by our education coordinator not to remove any of the material in the article that originated from Nutrition. I found this to be a perfectly advisable strategy. I foresee that eventually someone may find it useful to provide more information about nutrition not pertaining to humans in the article Nutrition, therefore, I would not like to be responsible for removing human specific information from Human Nutrition. Thank you for your suggestion. Lbockhorn (talk) 08:41, 30 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Intersex article

The Intersex article could use help from this WikiProject. A class is currently working on that article and it's quickly become a dumping ground for all sorts of intersex material, with formatting issues and the like. I'll also alert WP:Anatomy to this matter. Flyer22 (talk) 02:45, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Student editing? Revert it all. If something is not done, per WP:ENB, ANI ahead. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:07, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

About 10 new users have posted lots of content to this article in the past few days. I put welcome templates on some of their talk pages and told them that if they are in a class then they should have their professor do education program training. Blue Rasberry (talk) 15:08, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Since it is increasingly unlikely we will get any help from the WMF, and increasingly likely we will see more and more of this, I suggest that we are going to need to develop our own templates for dealing with these situations, and perhaps our own watchlist page, subpage, or place where we can track all of the problems and courses. This talk page is being taken over by problems with student editing, to the point that it is becoming hard to get attention to other, more worthy articles and issues.

This course seems to be UC Irvine, Women's Studies, 60A Gender and Science. And there seem to be quite a few of them. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:24, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, thank you both. Other articles that I am seeing student editing at in this regard are the Sex and gender distinction‎, Sex differences in humans and Rape by gender articles (at least I think that a class has recently targeted the Rape by gender article, and is focusing on the under-reporting and double standard with regard to the rape of males by females); except for rape, these latter articles are largely outside of WP:MED's scope, but there is sometimes poor medical information being added to these types of articles (such as in the case of the Rape by gender article, where I reverted some of the recent edits). Flyer22 (talk) 22:42, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Also, judging by the username Social Inequality (talk · contribs), I initially thought that it was simply a WP:Activist editing the Rape by gender article, but Sherry209380 (talk · contribs) showing up soon after that editor's edits made me think that it's a class project matter. Flyer22 (talk) 22:49, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Template for students

did it myself because the nimwits at WP:ENB couldn't be bothered ... please, folks, watchlist this one so it will work for us, because everything we have tried to do via the ENB has been watered down to fluff and promote their project that is creating more messes than we can keep up with.

{{subst:Welcome medical student}} SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:07, 22 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Appreciate it, Sandy. And watchlisted it. Flyer22 (talk) 04:13, 22 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, Flyer, and thank you. I added the new template at User talk:Social Inequality, but I can't figure out why it runs into the template you already had there. Don't know what to do. Too tired to figure it out. Best, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:45, 22 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I saw that moments before initially replying here about the template. No need to worry too much about that matter, at least not at this time; get some good rest. Flyer22 (talk) 04:48, 22 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, and it probably runs into the template I have there because "my" template is not the full version of that Welcome template; notice how I have it formatted, where it's most of the template, with some alterations. Flyer22 (talk) 04:53, 22 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thoughts on sourcing

If a reliable source appears to have "copy and pasted" from Wikipedia is it still a reliable source? Do we say that the Wikipedia content has undergone formal peer review and can we than use that ref to support our own content? Ref is this one [2] published in Dec of 2012. Here is the history section of our article back in 2010.[3].

Anyway to address User:SandyGeorgia's concern regarding a lack of medical warnings. We are writing many of the worlds textbook and journal articles unattributed. Not sure if that is a good thing. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 11:25, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't fully compared those links, but unattributed text is clearly a copyright violation, and I'm not sure what to make of that. Legal action is at least as I see it not desirable, but on the other hand the book in mention is published by a large medical publishing house, and that is if what you are saying is correct a major issue of plagiarism.

Regarding the question of whether it is a reliable source, that isn't really effected in my eyes. If we would otherwise regard the book as a reliable source, we should regard it as if the violating content to have undergone peer review in the publication in that book, but I see it's not quite so simple. Rather the interesting situation. -- CFCF (talk) 11:46, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes we have a good half dozen of these situations now. And those are just the ones I found without really looking. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 12:41, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

NO. Whomever is doing this, it needs to stop; if it doesn't, ANI is needed. See WP:ELNEVER. A number of ebooks scrape WikiContent and reproduce them. They do attribute the content to Wikipedia, so they are not copyvios (I don't know if that particular book does), but precisely because they are mirrors of Wikipedia, in addition to the copyvio issues, they are not reliable sources. They are scraped from a website (Wikipedia) which by definition (user contributed) is not reliable. Whomever is adding wiki mirrors or ELs that contain copyvio as sources needs to be stopped, and reverted. That is a basic contradiction to WP:V (not reliable), or in some case, copyvio if the attribution to Wikipedia is not given. At FAC, we once came across a copy of an FA in an ebook on Amazon. I ordered that book, and we discovered that they had scraped the entire FA, paired it with "Jock strap" (from Wikipedia), and marketed it. Since they attributed it correctly to Wikipedia, there is nothing we can do about that, but Wikipedia mirrors are NEVER reliable sources. See further description in FAC archives. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:34, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

There are literally thousands of that kind of ebook. Made up authors I suspect and produced en masse from probably not so many different sources as a cash cow which relies on the gullibility of consumers who think they see a highly specialized original book. Lesion (talk) 13:51, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think it would be good to see a specific instance to comment. If some third-party source uses WP content, then it is required to abide by the terms of the WP:CC-BY-SA license under which that content is made available (broadly, it's got to be attributed [?and available free-of-charge?]). It is theoretically possible for a reliable source to do this by adding a layer of peer-review/fact-checking into the publication process; however it is unlikely because the resulting product would be difficult to monetize if abiding by the license. Alexbrn ^{talk|contribs|COI} 13:45, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Alex, please see the link above. The scraped FA was written by Elcobbola (talk · contribs) who IMO is Wikipedia's finest IP person, most knowledgeable in copyright. I ordered that particular book, we reviewed and discussed it, and since it was correctly licensed, there was nothing we could do (if memory serves). Regardless-- because they are Wikipedia mirrors, they are by definition not reliable sources. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:49, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  - Yes, I see: Wikipedia would need to use CC BY-NC to preclude commercial re-use; CC BY-SA merely seems to preclude royalty collection. As I say, if the content had been submitted (say) to a respected publisher and subject to the full rigour of a peer-review process then the resulting text, changed or unchanged, if it were made available and correctly licesnsed, could be RS couldn't it? This would however be very unlikely to happen - as you say, the more likely scenario is that the content is just repurposed verbatim, in which case it's unreliable like any wiki. Alexbrn ^{talk|contribs|COI} 13:59, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This is on the other hand a very different matter, where we are talking about a very reputable publishing house, and that on its own should be enough to except sufficient peer-review. The book does not carry a disclaimer that it doesn't give medical advice (although a different disclaimer is there). I don't think this is at all that simple, and it needs to be discussed at a larger forum than WP:MED, but first it may be good to summarize several of these cases in a list. WP:CIRCULAR is not clear concerning anything other than websites. -- CFCF (talk) 13:58, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The CC-BY-SA license allows for commerical re-use. What it doesn't allow is a) failure to attribute the original copyright holder (Wikipedia) and b) releasing the material under a more restricted license. If it has indeed copied verbatim and extensively from Wikipedia, Managing COPD (mentioned by Doc James above) fails on both counts—Wikipedia is nowhere attributed and the book was released under exclusive copyright to Springer Healthcare forbidding any reproduction without their specific permission. Voceditenore (talk) 14:06, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

A very reputable publishing house would know better than to scrape content from Wikipedia. Revert them all. They do not meet WP:RS, much less WP:MEDRS. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:09, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yikes. It's almost certain the publisher had no idea of the WP provenance of the text (if that is what's happened) since if there's one thing publishers take seriously, it's licensing. More likely some person contributing to the text would have got the content in there on the quiet, and so, if this escalates the real "problem" will be between the publisher and the contributor. Alexbrn ^{talk|contribs|COI} 14:14, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Got this nice write up a while ago :-) [4] Another example is mentioned here [5]. The issue is that the doc in question copied stuff from Wikipedia that was wrong. I corrected Wikipedia of course but unable to correct this book. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 14:17, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting is that Springer is quite a lot larger than Jaypee Brothers Medical Publishers, and this might have a larger impact if it comes to light. No doubt the book is of very high quality, and most likely it has at least seen to it not to copy inaccurate passages. I'm very much on Alexbrns line that this must be an issue between the published and contributor. Odd though that it wasn't caught when copyediting the book.-- CFCF (talk) 14:26, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hah! Fascinating. It's odd that publishers don't run the content they get through the plagiarism detection tools routinely used on university students' work; I'm sure the results would prove interesting and could spare some red faces ... Hmmm: that gives me a business idea ... Alexbrn ^{talk|contribs|COI} 14:27, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

However, looking at the History section of our article from 2010 and the corresponding Springer text, while there are some points of similarity and phrases in common (a whole sentence in one case) the text do not seem that close - or am I missing something? Alexbrn ^{talk|contribs|COI} 14:43, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Just some similarities. Not nearly as much as the Jaypee brother case which was more or less the whole Wikipedia article. This is a borderline case. I was just thinking of using it to support our text. I havn't looked at it close enough to determine if their is a case.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 14:50, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Alex, having looked at it closely. Apart from the one sentence, it's not close enough to qualify as an infringement, and certainly not a case of "scraping". Voceditenore (talk) 17:02, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes however was thinking of using it to support that one sentence. I have used a different source instead. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 06:19, 22 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

One tool to help manage such cases is the use of template {{Backwardscopy}} atop the article's talkpage so that other editors will be alerted to the existence of the mirror.LeadSongDog come howl! 07:08, 22 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This journal article copied much more liberally from our Wikipedia article on COPD without attribution [6] Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 14:11, 22 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Doc, I cannot bear to participate in that board anymore, but I think this example needs to be added to the discussion of why the integrity of our medical content is important, at Wikipedia:ENB#MEDRS. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:27, 22 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Help needed with new editor

I will be out today for a family friend funeral. There are a number of competency issues with a new medical editor, and from what I've seen, everything s/he has done may need to be reverted. There is also copyvio (see Talk:Psychosurgery). I don't have time to do anything today, can anyone help? [7] SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:53, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

hmmm. Back. I think I got to this one, more eyes would be helpful. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:14, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Help needed at Electronic cigarette

A single user is constantly reverting edits here made by several editors from WP:MED, and is not following consensus on the talk-page. I have been forced to revert a number of times relying on WP:3RRNO, but I don't want to rely on it anymore. Please help by reverting or talking sense in to the editor. -- CFCF (talk) 14:06, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am not able to revert the article in that way, but this edit [8] should be reverted. -- CFCF (talk) 14:22, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

User has also been reported 3 times for breaking 3RR in the last few days. [9] Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 14:23, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

From what I've seen of the user I'm sympathetic to them. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 07:50, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Personal experience

We have a user who is trying to add their own personal experience to the article on Social anxiety disorder Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 12:54, 22 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Watchlisted. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:57, 22 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Update: admin watch. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:59, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

And, because he revealed his IP on my talk page, a history of edit warring revealed here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:12, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

ANI SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:44, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Doctor needed on student editing at Congenital distal spinal muscular atrophy

What the heck is the difference between Distal spinal muscular atrophy type 2 and Congenital distal spinal muscular atrophy and why is there no link anywhere in that article to a main condition, and which would that be and why is Spinal muscular atrophies in the plural rather than singular? I am not a Dr. I don't know if this new student article belongs elsewhere, needs to be merged, duplicates an existing article, and this student article generally needs medical review. There's a mess in there. Why do we have Spinal muscular atrophies and spinal muscular atrophy and why does one of them mention "Autosomal recessive proximal spinal muscular atrophy", which also seems to be a redirect, and how is that different from the congenital type? A doc is needed to sort out all of this. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:38, 22 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That mess evidently [Talk:Spinal_muscular_atrophies started years ago]. The plural title for Spinal muscular atrophies does seem to make sense, as that article is one step removed from List-class, with a tabular list of more specific conditions with distinct genetic causes. I've added a hatnote to distinguish Spinal muscular atrophy. I am more concerned about the abundant use of rather outdated and primary sourcing in some of these articles. LeadSongDog come howl! 19:20, 22 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Jimbo and others talking about health articles

See User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#Expert_review_project_again. Thanks for starting this user:Anthonyhcole. Blue Rasberry (talk) 16:27, 22 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think that discussion is pretty much over. I just wanted to know where he stood, and was pleasantly surprised. (No one's contacted me about mentoring at UCSF. Have students been allocated mentors yet? Is there some discussion I should be involved in?) --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 16:42, 22 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

We are just going to be all available as a group. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 09:11, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

UCSF

It's going to be random and not one to one, so I guess we should just keep an eye on their edits (5 students listed at WP:MEDUCSF). Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 16:46, 22 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I mentioned at DocJames talk that I'm uncomfortable with the idea of a literature section being added to the already massively-huge Major depressive disorder; he said he planned to talk about that. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:50, 22 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. It is large "61 kB (9295 words)", with a nicely-sized society and culture section already. Hmmmm... I suppose a paragraph there wouldn't hurt anything, but yes, it's not like it's needed clinical data, which I think was the highest hope for the course on my end at least. But if that's what the students are passionate about, then I don't want to discourage them. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 16:56, 22 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yea, but. If they want to expand the article, it will need to be done at Sociological and cultural aspects of depression, as in Sociological and cultural aspects of Tourette syndrome, to manage the length. (They also should be encouraged to do the expansion based on journal sources whenever possible.) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:08, 22 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Good point. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 17:11, 22 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I dropped a note on the student's talk page. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 17:18, 22 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Agree completely with Sandy and that is what I will do. We will split it off as a subpage. I was hoping they would concentrate more on our top disease related articles. We will see how it goes. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 09:13, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That's a shame. With a very experienced medical editor partnered with each student - from the choice of topic forward - I was hoping this would be one course that created no problems for the wider medical editor community and turned out five very high quality articles or sections. Without one-on-one mentorship, isn't this going to be as riddled with problems as any course? Or is there something about its structure that sets it apart? --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 17:35, 22 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know what is meant by "it's going to be random"; please expand? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:40, 22 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I was in an email thread and heard that User:Kevin Gorman recommended against making one on one matches at UCSF (but we can). Someone assign me a student, I don't care, and I'll keep tabs on what they do. Anthony, do you have a choice? I'll take responsiblity for one student. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 07:23, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Not really, no. Without a formal pairing-up of some kind, with the imprimatur of the professor, I'm more comfortable just watchlisting the articles and seeing what happens. What was Kevin's rationale for canning the pairing-up? --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 08:09, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know. I'm curious myself. I'll email him to comment here. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 08:49, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't actually recommend against it, I just said it wasn't customarily done anymore. The first couple semesters of the public policy initiative paired online ambassadors and students 1:1, but it frustrated many of the experienced Wikipedians involved because often their students would be unresponsive (even when writing good content,) so the people in charge of the PPI stopped the practice. It may be a good idea to use 1:1 pairings here, although since there are only five students involved, it'll probably be just as easy to just watchlist all involved articles. The students involved had read over our medical referencing stuff thoroughly enough that they were familiar with most aspects of them off the top of their heads before I arrived, and have the contact info for me, Bios, and Doc James - I suspect they'll end up doing well, regardless of whether or not they have 1:1 pairings. (Sorry for the late reply to the username ping, I have been busy.) Kevin Gorman (talk) 23:25, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Medicine-specific advice for educational projects

(@SandyGeorgia, Tryptofish, Jmh649, Biosthmors, and Colin: cross-posting here from the education noticeboard, since I know some of you folks are trying to keep that off your watchlists.)

I've gone ahead and taken a first stab at building a module of topic-specific advice for the educators training. (We can similarly add these to the student trainings as well.) Take a look at the trainings starting here: Wikipedia:Training/For educators/Topic-specific modules.

The content for the medical editing module lives here:

Please improve! We can add more pages if necessary, but I strongly recommend not letting any individual pages get much longer than these; the less information on each page, the more of what's there will sink in. --Sage Ross (WMF) (talk) 19:47, 22 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, Sage. I am, for now, completely burnt out and unable to face this topic any more, but I have made myself a sticky note and I *will* get over there as soon as I can ... stomach ... it :) :) Best, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:57, 22 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

+1, though Sandy will probably make it over there before I do. What a shitshow. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 07:34, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sage Ross (WMF), Mike Christie and Jami (Wiki Ed): I've regained ... ummm ... my composure and gotten a second wind, and would like to get this done before holiday guests arrive. But I'm unsure where you want to coordinate the discussion. Do we just put comments on the talk pages associated with the pages above, or do you want everything here, at ENB, what? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:14, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@SandyGeorgia: Here is a good place. --Sage Ross (WMF) (talk) 15:20, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Feedback from SandyGeorgia

Collapse done SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:32, 25 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

1. Wikipedia:Training/For educators/Topic-specific modules

A problem that we have is that the profs/students don't always realize the extent of MEDRS (that is, health-related or medical content). I would suggest changing:

If you plan to have students contribute in medicine-related topic areas (including psychology), please go through this additional section. ... My class will be working on medical topics.

to

If you plan to have students contribute in health or medicine-related topic areas (including psychology), please go through this additional section. ... My class will be working on health-related or medical topics.

Done --Sage Ross (WMF) (talk) 20:43, 25 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

2. Wikipedia:Training/For educators/Medical topics 1

Looks fine to me.

3. Wikipedia:Training/For educators/Medical topics 2

"including reports of original medical research published in respected journals ... "

They don't get this ... heck, most established editors don't get it. I suggest changing it to ...

"including reports of original medical research, such as case reports or clinical studies, published in respected journals ... "

Done, with some related rewording.--Sage Ross (WMF) (talk) 20:43, 25 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

4. Wikipedia:Training/For educators/Medical topics 3

This is the page where we might strongly advise them to have their students *first* propose their sources, before they waste time writing. Much frustration can be avoided if we can get them to have us review their sources before we all waste a lot of time.

Done, and this content now lives at Wikipedia:Training/For educators/Medical topics 4. --Sage Ross (WMF) (talk) 20:43, 25 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

5. Missing: we need to somehow get them to add PMIDs. That could involve adding one more page explaining how to search pubmed for a PMID. Having a PMID in the citation significantly lessens our burden when we review the student's work. Can we add one more page on this?
6. Missing: Could we link somewhere to Wikipedia:MEDMOS#Sections. A big problem with student work is that they haven't focused in on what they are writing and where it will be added. If they see how we typically organize articles, that will avoid a lot of agida. Is one more page getting too long ?

Done, sort of. I put both of these in a new page on "style conventions", which is the new page 3: Wikipedia:Training/For educators/Medical topics 3. I don't know how to explain searching for PMIDs efficiently, but if folks agree that it's important to have a howto and someone writes one (maybe just for the students, and in the educator module we note that such instructions are in the student version), I don't think adding more pages is a problem.--Sage Ross (WMF) (talk) 20:43, 25 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for doing this! Best, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:51, 24 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@SandyGeorgia: Thanks for the excellent suggestions.--Sage Ross (WMF) (talk) 20:43, 25 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sage Ross (WMF) Nice job of incorporating my concerns, Sage Ross-- thanks. There is only one thing that we might look further at:

Wikipedia:Training/For educators/Medical topics 3

In the interest of space and not overwhelming the students, sending them to the "cite pmid" template is the fastest and easiest. But most medical articles don't use that template, and it generates a horrid citation that we don't mostly use in medicine (we use the Diberri/BogHog citation filler template, which yields a more compact citation). And since most students use regular citation templates, the cite journal generated by BogHog would make sense to them. But I'm not sure you can work that citation filling template in with brevity. But I don't want to be recommending they use the cite pmid template, because in most medical articles, that will run them afoul of WP:CITEVAR-- don't change established citation style, which is usually Diberri/BogHog. I'm not sure how you can fix this ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:32, 25 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@SandyGeorgia: I've replaced the cite pmid bit with a simpler exhortation to include the PMID within the citation. (It's unfortunate that our citation conventions are so convoluted. We really need a single standard way of inputting reference info, with control of how they get displayed at the article level rather than determined by the citation itself. Alas.)--Sage Ross (WMF) (talk) 17:44, 27 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sage Ross (WMF) Yes, that is the problem! Your newer text is great. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:46, 27 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

APS

By the way, User:Mike Christie and User:Jami (Wiki Ed), will the WEF please ask the American Psychological Society to cut back on promoting their garbage? Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 07:39, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I only have time for a brief glance as I have to go to work, but will look again tonight. Can you clarify? Is this a course that is going badly? Or are you referring to APS's general attempts to improve coverage of psychology topics on-wiki? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:35, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am referring to the class I forwarded you my email about and the APS initative. People need to know that disruptive classrooms can be blocked. They need to know our policies and guidelines. I've had enough of this "anyone can edit" garbage. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 13:42, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

OH dear, I wish I hadn't seen this thread just when I can't take any more of this. Psych students encouraged to further theories from one specific book via Wikipedia. Talk about COI, potential promotion, all kinds of issues. I don't want to know about this; I had just gotten over the desire to quit. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:21, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I know, it's a sad sad sad situation. But let me bring us full circle, if you don't mind. The real issue here is that students were being abused by professors (and supported by the WMF) into paid advocacy editing (because any abuse of primary sources necessarily leads to WP:UNDUE and WP:NPOV issues), in my opinion. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 10:24, 24 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Your "Related changes" in a nice box

Recent changes in WP:Medicine

Articles and their talkpages:

Not mainspace:

Leukemia (source)
My interest topic (source)

Top	High	Mid	Low	NA	???	Total
101	1,073	11,572	38,994	7,528	1,299	60,567

List overview · Lists updated: 2015-07-15 · This box:

@Anthonyhcole, Biosthmors, LT910001, and WhatamIdoing:. This is more what I had in mind, a few weeks ago.

To install on a page: {{WPMED related changes}}.

You can also add individual pages:

Using like: {{WPMED related changes |mylinks1=Leukemia |mylinks2=Malaria|label2=My interest topic}}

-DePiep (talk) 00:00, 23 November 2013 (UTC) -DePiep (talk) 00:05, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

All I have to say is WOW!!!! and thank you. That's brilliant. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 05:55, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Holy moly. This is amazing. God bless DePiep. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 07:47, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Especially the positioning of the stethoscope took time (I am not a doctor). Now if you do not put this in top of WP:MED and on your user homepage, I won't look at you again ;-). -DePiep (talk) 09:01, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I like it Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 09:08, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. -DePiep (talk) 09:23, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Done. It looks a little odd, but I'll take function over form any day. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 13:07, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Development talks can continue at WT:WikiProject Medicine/Lists of pages and Template talk:WPMED related changes. -DePiep (talk) 09:23, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Dumber than I look ... do I put this in my own user space and link to the articles I follow? And why is the template called WPMED-- would it not work for any kind of article? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:30, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Placing the base box on your page:

1. Copy this text (as you see it):

{{WPMED related changes}}

2. Open your userpage with Edit

3. Paste the code somewhere into that page & Save it.

4. You should see the box with four links. (If it overlaps other areas, call me here). -DePiep (talk) 21:09, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It is called Template:WPMED ... just to show that it is fully tied to this Medicine project. That's all. It does not act as a switch or sign for something. Just a reminder for persons who read the name. In the box, the first four links are fixed, and MED-project related.

About individually added pages: |mylinks1=. See link examples 5 and 6 (Leukemia and malaria): free to choose. Can be any wiki page (|mylinks3=Napoleon), or a userpage: |mylinks4=User:SandyGeorgia/my hot pages. This will act like a handmade watchlist. Note: Related changes does not show that single page's edits, but the edits in all links on that page (e.g., edits of white blood cells, via the leukemia page). -DePiep (talk) 21:09, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This looks wondeful! As someone not so versed in the technical side of Wikipedia, would it be possible to appropriate this to WP:Anatomy as well? CFCF (talk) 12:00, 24 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This question moves to here, before this disappears in an archive. -DePiep (talk) 04:17, 25 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I have split one page into Top+High and Mid-importance. Reason is that the big T/H/M page covered only 16 hours or so: you'd miss a lot of earlier edits. Now it is 20hrsd for thee Mid-activities. Not enough, but better. T+H covers some 48 hrs.-DePiep (talk) 18:06, 25 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Dengue diagnosig

Hello. In Tourniquet test You can read "The test is positive if there are more than 10 to 20 petechiae per a circle 2.5 cm(1 inch) in diameter". In Dengue: "cut off being more than 10 to 20 per 2.5 cm2 (1 inch2).". Inch^2 isnn't equal to 2,5 cm^2 and, what is more, π(inch/2)^2. Which version is true? Mpn (talk) 06:47, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Have you checked the refs? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 09:04, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The 2009 WHO source does not state the cut-off value, only saying that "A positive tourniquet test in this phase increases the probability of dengue." The Free Dictionary does not state the cut-off either. Another reference was incorrectly used. On page 180, Halstead describes "the number of resulting petechiae counted in a 2.5 cm square.... A test is considered positive when 20 or more petechiae are observed in the 2.5 cm square." Halstead continues on page 429: "The 1997 WHO guidelines define a positive test as 20 petechiae per square inch, while the Guidelines for treatment issued by the Southeast Asia Regional Office of WHO accept a more widely used cutoff of 10 petechiae or more per square inch."

I have fixed both articles.

_{Is it original research to state that one square inch equals 6.25 square centimetres?} Axl ¤ [Talk] 14:08, 24 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Not OR but common sense. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 14:16, 24 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Barnstars

Would whoever took the barnstars off of WP:MED put them back please? Thanks. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 07:49, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

And they're not even at WP:Barnstars?

Facepalm Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 07:53, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No wonder I haven't been able to find them :/ SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:10, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

They are on this subpage. Axl ¤ [Talk] 20:43, 24 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

They are linked from WPMED: Wikipedia:WikiProject_Medicine#Awards. Oppose moving the full awards content back in, they take up too much space on the main page. Lesion (talk) 20:59, 24 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

EFMR

Please see Epilepsy in females with intellectual disability. You won't have heard of this syndrome before, because it doesn't exist. It was invented by Wikipedians. Please comment on the naming dispute at the talk page. -- Colin°^Talk 18:43, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Moved the article back to the previous name. Warned person who moved it. Looks like a lot of primary sources. I guess the question is how many more of these moves are there to terms that did not previously exist. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 22:46, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Cough medications

Is this info reasonable in a section on society and culture in the cough medicine article? [10] Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 23:00, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

User has deleted a review article and replaced it with a fact tag [11]. Review article is here [12] Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 23:43, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I looked in, and see what looks like a good-faith content dispute; I'm not sure I can take a position on that one, but I'm no Dr-- maybe something I'm missing. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:18, 24 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Issue is the removal of the review article and replacing it with a fact tag.[13] Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 00:20, 24 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know what australianprescriber.com is, and I'm getting a dead link. Is there a PMID? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:24, 24 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

As above. Review article is here [14] Pubmed of course has the best coverage for US stuff. Less from other parts of the world. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 00:37, 24 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Don't know if it adds anything to the discussion, but in Sweden we almost exclusively use pubmed for all research, but not for guidelines which are administered by [15]Socialstyrelsen & [16]Läkemedelsverket - The medical products agency. It may only be that the prescription guidelines from many countries aren't present on pubmed. It could be a good idea to summarize the different agencies of the world in a list (if it hasn't already been done), so that we can see what sources are reliable. CFCF (talk) 10:42, 24 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This is from the Medical Products Agency - Sweden, translated by me (with great care not to influence the guidelines)[17]:

Hos vuxna är den akut påkomna hostan i samband med en infektion svår att påverka men lindras nog bäst med varm dryck. Olika läkemedels effekt på hosta är dåligt studerad och resultaten svårtolkade. Läkemedel mot hosta är därför inte rabattberättigade. Om torr rethosta föreligger, kan man pröva centralt hostdämpande farmaka, t ex noskapin, och är hostan mycket besvärande nattetid kan man med vederbörlig försiktighet skriva ut läkemedel innehållande etylmorfin, såsom Cocillana-Etyfin. Antibiotika påverkar inte förloppet.

In adults acute cough in conjunction with an infection is diffucult to influence, but is most likely helped best with warm beverages. The effect of different medication on cough is poorly studied, and the results difficult to interpret. Therefor pharmaceuticals against cough are not entitled to reduced rate[in Sweden]. If dry irritating cough is found it is possible to to try a centrally cough-reducing medicine, for example noskapin, och if the cough is very inconveniencing during the night one can with proper caution prescribe pharmaceuticals containing ethylmorphine such as Cocillana-Etyfin. Antibiotics do not effect the course of events.

Hos barn är det viktigt att först skapa sig en bild av den underliggande infektionen. Det gäller att behandla en eventuell obstruktivitet i första hand. Får man obstruktiviteten under kontroll avtar ofta också hostan. Att ge slemlösande medel är verkningslöst. Hostan kan ofta förklaras av att det tar tid för flimmerhåren att återbildas efter infektionen och den går över efter 1–2 månader utan behandling. Ett barn i 4–7-årsåldern kan efter en period av recidiverande nedre luftvägsinfektioner ha utvecklat postinfektiös hyperreaktivitet och hostreflexen har blivit mer lättutlöst. Sannolikt finns ett kroniskt inflammatoriskt tillstånd i slemhinnan. Vid långvarig hyperreaktivitet kan man pröva inhalationssteroid i lågdos 1–2 gånger/dag. Antibiotika påverkar inte förloppet.

In children it is important to form an image of the underlying infection. It is due to treat a possible obstructivity in first hand. If you get the obstructivity under controll the cough will often subside. To give exporants is without effect. The cough can often be explained by the time it takes to regain the cilia after an ifection and it will pass after 1-2 months without treatment. A child 4-7 years of age can after a period of recidivating lower airway-infection have developed a postinfectious hyperactivity and the cough-reflex has become easier to provoke. Most likelt there is a chronic inflammatory condition in the mucous membrane. During prolonged hyperreactivity one can try an inhalation-steroid in low dosage 1-2 times a day. Antibiotics do not effect the course of events.

CFCF (talk) 11:03, 24 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The article has recently been rearranged against WP:MEDMOS and a summary of the best available evidence removed from the lead. Wondering if people can comment on these changes here [18] Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 02:13, 25 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm having trouble understanding why you presented this as having been "rearranged against MEDMOS". The dispute is over exactly two sections, ==Examples== and ==Effectiveness==. MEDMOS doesn't have either of these sections, and therefore it is actually impossible to put them in a place that MEDMOS recommends against. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:02, 25 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Contraindications do not go at the end and the stuff moved into contraindications wasn't. Typically we discuss effectiveness under medical uses.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 19:16, 25 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

MEDMOS does not demand that the sections suggested in it be placed before sections that are not listed in it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:15, 27 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Open access icon in refs

We discussed this issue here [19].

IMO it would be useful to our readers to have "open access" icons in our refs. This will let them know if they should bother hitting the link or not. A bot would take care of adding / updating this info as it changes. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 01:39, 24 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Without reading the entire discussion I think this is a wonderful idea. Although it may seem that everyone on WP:MED has access to journals, the vast majority of the public don't, and this will help them find relevant sources. Three clicks on links someone can't access and they will stop trying, losing out on the links they can access.CFCF (talk) 10:34, 24 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It's a lovely idea, but the devil's in the details. It is a maintenance nightmare, because what's open and not changes over time (e.g., everything in Blood is open access after a year—but every journal has its own system). WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:04, 25 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The only way it would work is if it was 99.9% automated by bots. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 19:07, 25 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thread started

Wikipedia:Village_pump_(miscellaneous)#Students_and_forced_paid_advocacy_editing. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 10:40, 24 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Or should someone point out to me the error of my ways? I'm baffled. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 13:10, 24 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Have posted and re opened. Have also put forth a proposal here [20] as it appears that the community is in charge of the education program. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 14:07, 24 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Database of rare diseases by the Swedish National Board of Health and Welfare

The Swedish National Board of Health and Welfare has undertaken a large scale drive to create a database of rare diseases and disorders that affect less than 100 people per 1,000,000.

The ultimate goal is to raise availability of information about these diseases and conditions. Additionally a drive has been undertaken to translate this material into English because it was seen that many who accessed the material were not from Sweden. It is a high quality source of medical knowledge, and could most likely expand many articles on Wikipedia. Available here: http://www.socialstyrelsen.se/rarediseases (Unfortunately the material is subject to copyright law, but that does not hinder it from being a reference material, or linking to it). CFCF (talk) 11:23, 24 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

So could you convince them to release it under a CC BY SA license? If we could convince them to release these under that license we could cut and paste them into place for articles where we have nothing. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 12:12, 24 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I've actually already been in contact with them, their response is that they prefer it if people are directed to their web-page so as to have access to the most up to date versions. That doesn't mean they could not be persuaded to release it if we show them sufficient evidence that Wikipedia is a major distributor of medical knowledge, such as your graph showing that Wikipedia is more used than the NIH's page. CFCF (talk) 12:23, 24 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes and we will link to their website and give them attribution. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 12:47, 24 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

High importance article- Human nutrition

I am in the process of editing Human Nutrition, and having trouble organizing the different challenges involved with malnutrition. There needs to be consideration not only for the individual effects that malnutrition and micronutrient deficiencies can have on an individual, but also a consideration of the social affects of widespread malnutrition issues. The organizational structure of malnutrition needs some more work I believe. Does the following structure provide a better combination of the previous article and the new social information that needs to be incorporated?

Individual nutrition challenges

4.2.3.1 Illnesses caused by improper nutrient consumption

4.2.3.3 Mental agility

4.2.3.4 Mental disorders

4.2.3.5 Cancer

4.2.3.6 Metabolic syndrome and obesity

4.2.3.7 Hyponatremia

Global nutrition challenges

2.1 Malnutrition and causes of death and disability

2.2 Child malnutrition

2.3 Adult overweight and obesity

2.4 Vitamin and mineral malnutrition

2.4.1 Iron deficiency and anaemia

2.4.2 Vitamin A deficiency

2.4.3 Iodine deficiency

2.5 Infant and young child feeding

2.6 Undernourishment

Are there any comments on this structure? Thank you Lbockhorn (talk) 15:23, 25 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

How much time to you intend to spend on this? If you plan on doing a complete rewrite of this article and have 200 hours to commit to doing it, then discussing a huge upheaval of content could make sense. The article already has the precedent of several thousands of hours of review to have gotten it where it is now, so shifting a lot of content and seeking a dozen people to weigh in on this is not something which will lightly be done.

My advice would be to neglect a full re-outline for now. Spend 10-20 hours thinking about the article as you work on 3-4 sections, and after you have done that much work, then propose a grand vision for sweeping change. When you propose a total change, find a nutrition textbook which seems comprehensive and propose to model your changes after what an established respected textbook has done.

Article outlines are very difficult. If you want to discuss malnutrition, here is how the medical manual of style would recommend that you do it. Blue Rasberry (talk) 15:50, 25 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

We have reached "college level"

This book copy and pasted some of the images I have uploaded. They have even borrowed heavily from our text copying my strange writing style word for word.[21] Anyway we are getting some good reviews on Amazon [22]. I wondering if we are being used in any schools yet? I am looking into it. This could be a big break and maybe news worthy :-) Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 18:14, 25 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It is under a CC BY SA license. They do not seem to give proper attribution though. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 18:18, 25 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Wow it is all us through and through. Hundreds of pages. Unfortunately they have left out all the refs and do not appear to mention who they got it from. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 18:21, 25 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Okay found the attribution. It is here to us [23] Thus looks sort of okay. It is simply a published mirror. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 18:31, 25 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

And this articles says much is from us [24] and we have an article on the company Boundless (company) Used by 4000 universities. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 18:45, 25 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Looked like an exciting concept, but seems like they have begun charging money for their text-books now. Wonder what prompted that? Doubly odd seeing as the material is (or maybe the old material was) CC-BY-SA [25]CFCF (talk) 19:42, 25 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It is still listed as CC BY SA at the end. CC BY SA is copyrighted just it is an open copyright. They are putting some work into it. We do need to come out with our own textbook formatted work. I am not sure what prevents people from just buying one copy and then sharing it? You should be able to download a copy of each and start your own website selling them for 99 cents or nothing. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 20:27, 25 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Amazon lists the Kindle edition as being free, though it seems it only runs on some of the Kindle models, not all. LeadSongDog come howl! 05:41, 26 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

We should be adding these to WikiBooks / WikiVersity. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 07:01, 26 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Looking at it more. This appears to be a potentially useful collaboration. It is freely available online such as here and does attribute us [26] Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 09:06, 26 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

About Boundless

Boundless (company) is publishing these books. It seems that this is a startup commercial operation which raised about USD 10 million and is seeking to supplant the entirety of the USD 8 billion textbook industry by replacing all texts, especially introductory texts, with free equivalents. I am not sure what their funding model is. On Amazon they seem to give away their books, and then charge for supplemental learning guides.

I read that they have an ongoing lawsuit. The best summary I found on first glance is at insidehighered.com but the court complaint is accessible also. The accusation is that Boundless is starting with any given copyrighted textbook and paraphrasing it in entirety to create a free version. The plaintiffs allege that the paraphrasing is too close and constitutes copyright infringement.

I would not support infringing behavior, but I am in favor of replacing all popular textbooks with free equivalents. This is a goal of the open educational resources movement and WikiProject Open also promotes these ideas. It might be the case that with Boundless facing legal trouble for whatever method it was using to generate textbooks, the company might be favorable to a partnership with the Wikipedia community in getting advice on compiling future textbooks. I feel that a partnership with Boundless or any other such community could be in Wikipedian's favor, and starting with medical texts might not be a bad idea. I would be delighted if Boundless leveraged its resources to improve Wikipedia articles so that they would be more fit to insert into its textbooks, especially since its textbooks seem CC-By-SA and could be remixed and reused by anyone.

How would others feel about inviting Boundless people here to discuss putting a medical text on Wikipedia? If a textbook were dropped here, how should it be hosted? Wikisource? Wikibooks? Wikiversity? How do people here feel about commercial companies like Boundless packaging Wikipedia content and tapping volunteer contributions for resale? Blue Rasberry (talk) 15:05, 26 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am happy with them packaging Wikipedia content as textbooks and this appears to be primarily what they have done for the textbook I have mentioned (It is more or less bits and peices of our article)
They however must properly attribute us. I am in discussions now.
Have not see any evidence that this is paraphrasing of others textbooks as it all looked like the above. Large companies simply like to sue people as a form of intimidation as I know from personal experience. They are so rich they do not care about the legal fees.
We are a good five years away from coming out with a basic medical text. I am of course working on one here Book:Health care with translation occurring into 60 languages.
Textbook could go at both Wikibooks and Wikiversity. Trying to get a format that can be easily moved over there. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 15:53, 26 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

ArbCom elections

I know that some of you have banner blindness, so here's a reminder that the ArbCom elections are underway, and a note about a problem that caused all early votes to be discarded:

Voting is now open to elect new members of the Arbitration Committee. Voting will close on Monday, 9 December at 23:59 UTC. (Important note: Votes made prior to 00:01 26 November 2013 were discarded due to a technical error)

Pay attention to that "important note" if you think that you've already voted. You can see the list of successfully recorded voters at Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee Elections December 2013/Log. If you tried to vote, and your name isn't on the list, then you need to vote again. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:48, 26 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Wegener's granulomatosis or granulomatosis with polyangiitis.

Please participate in the move discussion on Talk:Wegener's granulomatosis whether the eponym or the descriptive name should be the article title. JFW | T@lk 13:04, 27 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Very similar situation occurs with sinusitis, which should of course be rhinosinusitis according to most modern sources on the topic.Lesion (talk) 18:46, 28 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Cholera

Student editing cleanup needed, see Talk:Cholera. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:06, 27 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Because Sandy and Biosthmors have both expressed negative opinions about the addition, I've opened a discussion at the Education Noticeboard incidents page. I'd like to suggest we have the discussion over there, rather than at Talk:Cholera, since it's of interest to both medical editors and editors working with the education program. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 15:36, 27 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Have reverted the most of the changes in question based on the issues mentioned on the talk page. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 17:11, 27 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Alzheimer's disease

Another at WP:ENI#University of Manchester, AD; regulars here might as well watchlist the education noticeboard incidents page. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:16, 27 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Please see the post at WP:ENI#University of Manchester, AD-- the problems here go beyond Alzheimer's. This editor has created numerous articles that have MEDRS, notability, and UNDUE issues. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:13, 27 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Postmenopausal confusion

Another at WP:ENI#Postmenopausal confusion, Georgia IT SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:28, 27 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Neural control of limb stiffness

Should this even be an article? Don't even know where to start ... student editing, perhaps someone should open an incident at WP:ENI. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:45, 27 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am prioritize my efforts and more or less turning a blind eye to articles that are infrequently read. One can easily burn on working on these. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 17:58, 27 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Ugh. Tweaked, then left tp advice. Seems notable (several cited works address the topic more or less directly). Probably worth (eventually) fixing. LeadSongDog come howl! 18:33, 27 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This is a topic in motor neuroscience and biomechanics; GScholar shows 1,260 hits for the search expression "limb stiffness" neural. If you have ever "braced for impact", you have probably exerted neural control over the stiffness of your limbs. While it has some medical implications (I think there are diseases that affect neural control of limb stiffness and stiffness is an issue in medical prosthetic limbs), this isn't a pure medical article. There is a unfortunate lack of secondary sources, but it is in pretty good shape for a nine day old article--inline citations to lots of reliable sources, the prose could be improved but is readable. I don't see how this warrants WP:ENI, especially since there has already been some engagement. See the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Neuroscience#Incoming students --Mark viking (talk) 20:37, 27 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Flow invitation to kick-the-tires

Hey all, We've reached the stage with Flow where it's relatively stable, and we'd like to invite you to take some time to try it out and chase bugs. It currently lives on a staff-run test server, which means it isn't hooked up to Single User Login - you can either edit anonymously or, preferably, create a new account under your current username.

The software has a minimal set of features at the moment; normal discussions with wikitext and templates should work fine (although Quiddity has only imported a few hundred templates), but there are some known bugs (and features that we're working on this fortnight) with the software. We're not looking to deploy Flow to enwiki in its current form, nor asking you to give your seal of approval to that.

What we'd like is for you to use the software, test it out and let us know two things:

If there are any bugs (you can report them here);
What changes or features you'd need added, to be personally comfortable with deploying it on your WikiProject (which you can explain here)

On the off chance that Flow is really, really broken for you, to the point where you can't post (maybe a browser issue?) you can of course use the enwiki talkpage for both purposes. If you have any questions about the test, you can post them there too :). We're going to be holding this testing open for a week to allow people to really hammer on the software, although we may not be around Thursday or Friday (it's Thanksgiving). If not, don't worry: we'll reply to you when we return.

Thanks! –Quiddity (WMF) (talk) 21:39, 27 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the heads up. Will look. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 22:02, 27 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Psychological Aspects of Pediatric HIV/AIDS

Dear medical experts: Here's another old declined Afc submission that is about to be deleted. If there is any value in it, please someone make an edit to postpone deletion so that it can be improved. —Anne Delong (talk) 21:52, 27 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

We could use an article on HIV/AIDS in children. Some of this content could possibly go there. Much of it is unreffed though the few refs there appear to be secondary sources. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 22:00, 27 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately, it has now been automatically deleted. If anyone want it back to use some of the content, it can be retrieved by clicking on the link and following the instructions. Sorry for the short notice. —Anne Delong (talk) 06:01, 28 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

How can it be "automatically deleted"? It looks like Sphilbrick deleted it. Axl ¤ [Talk] 10:49, 28 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Not automatically deleted, but deleted per G13 because it was started in May 2012, and then abandoned.

Sorry, I should have been more careful to write clearly. It was automatically nominated for deletion. —Anne Delong (talk) 00:38, 30 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Here's the content, if someone wants to work on it, let me know and I'll restore it

History of HIV/AIDS and Pediatrics

The Human Immunodeficiency Virus(HIV) was discovered in 1981. In the thirty-one years that we have known about HIV substantial progress has been made in understanding and treating the virus. However, understanding of the virus as it pertains to children and adolescents is still a relatively new research area. In the late 1980s, researchers and health care professionals turned their attention toward adolescents as an at-risk population^[1]. This population was cited as at-risk due to adolescents believing they are impervious to the virus as well as the risky sexual and drug experimentation that occurs during this period of development. In order to prevent high-risk behaviors that could result in the acquisition of HIV, the authors called for HIV/AIDS education in the schools.

Children who have been perinatally infected with HIV are now living longer and relatively healthy lives due mostly to antiretroviral therapy (ART)^[2]. Researchers take the stance that HIV/AIDS should be viewed not as a death sentence as it once was, but as a chronic illness and calls for an integrative and multidisciplinary approach in caring for these individuals that takes into account many factors including psychological well-being. Children infected with HIV/AIDS as well as their families have many new challenges to face due to longer longevity. These challenges are affecting children with HIV/AIDS differently from other chronic or incurable diseases. For example, children may have had to watch family members become ill and die from HIV/AIDS. They face stigmatization, lack of resources, family disruption, and exposure to abuse. Not only do they have to deal with external sources of stress they are also dealing with thoughts of their own mortality and feelings of guilt, loss, anger, etc.

^[2]states that mental health interventions must become incorporated into the standard of care for those children living with HIV/AIDS. However, health care systems often fail to provide this need. Researchers call for a multidimensional approach that would incorporate primary care physicians, psychologists, psychiatrists, and families. Primary care nurses, school nurses, and general practitioners can learn to recognize the signs of mental illness and manage the most basic of mental illnesses or make an appropriate referral. Or, a clinical psychologist could be present at these children’s primary care facilities.

^[3] states a particularly disturbing statistic that more HIV infections are attributable to adolescents and young adults between the ages of 13-29 years of age. Researchers state that “HIV is an epidemic primarily of young people.” Psychiatric disorders that have high prevalence rates among adolescents with HIV/AIDS which include but are not limited to: attention deficit/hyperactivity disorder, depression, anxiety, behavior problems, and oppositional defiant disorder.

--S Philbrick (Talk) 12:37, 28 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Muse Cell

...has all the hallmarks of a student creation, but nothing explicit to indicate that. LeadSongDog come howl! 14:30, 28 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That doesn't look like a student article to me. It looks like it was created by somebody with a high level of topic-area expertise. Looie496 (talk) 16:11, 28 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Some of the technical stuff would be better with a simpler explanation. Interestingly, the original creator is Muse2000 (talk page). Benboy00 inappropriately warned Muse2000 for vandalism, including the reversion edit summary.

The quality of the referencing and the accuracy of information are good—not suggestive of typical student assignment editing. Axl ¤ [Talk] 11:16, 29 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

While the article may need work I believe the behavior of Benboy00 is detrimental to Wikipedia as a new and potentially knowledgeable/helpful editor can be scared off from contributing further when their edits don't seem to be appreciated. Would probably be good to inform Muse2000 that the warning was in error. CFCF (talk) 13:27, 29 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Pardon me, but I do not believe that the warning was in error. Muse2000 edited after a revert. I left a level one (i think its level one), polite warning on his/her talk page. This succeeded in getting him/her to stop making those disruptive edits, and did not scare him/her off. Benboy00 (talk)

Benboy00,

"Editing after a revert" is not vandalism. This odd formatting is not vandalism. This says, "Hey, this is my fourth-ever edit to a very complicated page, and I'm trying to make it look right on my computer screen". This does not say "I have bad faith and am deliberately trying to break things".

If you're going to issue even "polite" warnings for vandalism, then you need to actually know what the definition of vandalism is. See the lead of the policy: "Vandalism is any addition, removal, or change of content in a deliberate attempt to compromise the integrity of Wikipedia. Examples of typical vandalism are adding irrelevant obscenities and crude humor to a page, illegitimately blanking pages, and inserting obvious nonsense into a page." Manually increasing the size of the section heading, rather than using the normal level 2 section heading, is not vandalism. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:41, 29 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that it may not have been deliberate, but the warning i left was completely appropriate. I apologize for saying that it was vandalism, because its not, but I still feel that the warning is not overly harsh in any way. It assumed good faith, and directed the user to experiment in the sandbox, which seems like a good idea. Since that user seems to be a one page SPA anyway, I doubt it matters very much in the long term, but even if that weren't the case, I still think that that warning was fine. Benboy00 (talk) 18:09, 29 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Wider advice requested as to which personages constitute notable cases in trigeminal neuralgia

In the last several months a few different persons have added various "celebrity" figures, often unreferenced to this section of the above article. My gut feeling is that we should scrap the whole section. Or if you have any thoughts on who should stay and who should go, please comment here Talk:Trigeminal_neuralgia#Notable_cases_section. Thank you, Lesion (talk) 17:11, 28 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Unreferenced BLP stuff should just go immediately. Most disease articles have a small section of notable individuals who have had the condition, I don't see the need to remove it out of hand. Canada Hky (talk) 17:15, 28 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

On the general question, these lists normally want two kinds of people:

Something that is clearly historical, like the first person diagnosed or a really famous, long-dead person.
Something that had a significant effect on modern times, like a person who founded a large charity. In these instances, you should be able to easily find something to say that goes far beyond "Joe Film has this disease", and extends to something like "Joe Film has helped raise six billion dollars for patient support in the last ten years" or "After his daughter was diagnosed with this disease, Peter Politician sponsored the 'Cure My Daughter' law that tripled research funding".

When we find more or less random examples of entertainers or business people who happen to have the disease, then those should normally be removed as trivia. There is some information at Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Medicine-related articles#Notable cases; we could expand it if that seemed helpful. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:26, 28 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Advice requested: is a description of an ongoing clinical trial an acceptable Wiki page?

link

I would like to ask for your opinion on a draft text I've written, describing an elaborate clinical trial which is currently ongoing and funded by the European Commission (FP7 project). We simply wanted to increase our exposure in the scientific community before the results come in (expected in 2 years from now, study started 3 years ago). The intention is explicitly NOT to recruit patients or new sites through this page.

The 'general' Wiki team took a look at the text I wrote and recommended to ask for advice here. They indicated they rather see the description of a completed study, results, impact etc. They indicated that describing an ongoing clinical trial -even within any indication that we are still looking for new patients and/or participating sites- may not be appropriate. I certainly agree that it is much more interesting to report about new results, but I also think it is important to show what innovative research is currently being conducted.

Anybody willing to give some advice? Many thanks in advance, Inge Winter, PhDIngeWinter (talk) 10:19, 29 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am sorry to say this topic is certainly unsuitable for a general encyclopedia. Wikipedia is not part of the scientific community, and its role is not to drive research. We tend to reference reviews, systematic reviews and meta analyses, as well as mainstream textbooks when writing encyclopedia articles. Whilst Schizophrenia is very much a notable topic for an encyclopedia article, the page you have written is not an encyclopedic topic. Even if the study had reached completion and been published, we do not dedicate whole encyclopedia articles to individual studies. Advice is to wait for the study to be published and other authors and organizations start commentating on the results, at which time content might be generated on the schizophrenia article. See WP:MEDRS for more info. Thank you, Lesion (talk) 11:18, 29 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with Lesion. The only exception would be if there are multiple, independent reliable sources talking about the study, see our general notability guidelines. However if you need exposure, I suppose there aren't. --cyclopia ^speak! 11:34, 29 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah what they said - sorry, unless independently notable, we'd be waiting for a Review Article (i.e. secondary source) to comment on it before adding. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:36, 29 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your feedback - however there seem to be various wikipages on other ongoing research within the same funding institution (framework 7 program from the European Commission), don't think it's reasonable to allow some and not others? IngeWinter (talk) 12:43, 29 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Do you mean the subpages of this list: [27] I wasn't aware we had any such articles. They strike me as not particularly notable. I don't have any problem with the projects being summarized as they are currently on the organization's article. Not sure how others feel. Lesion (talk) 12:59, 29 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Definitely not suitable for a medical article until summarized and put in context by a secondary source. Not sure if it would be appropriate for that page. Are there secondary sources? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 13:16, 29 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Refugees Access to US Healthcare

Hello again, medical experts! Is this a notable topic, and can the "essaylike" qualities be removed to make a good article? If not edited right away, it will be deleted as a stale draft. —Anne Delong (talk) 13:29, 29 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Medical disclaimer

After discussion on multiple talk pages, it was revealed that multiple other language Wikipedias do have medical disclaimers. Initially, I was concerned about the decline in participation at WT:MED, where basic concerns are no longer being addressed:

Archived with no resolution
Most of these moved into mainspace with limited feedback, and now need to be dealt with
No one else helped with these, archived without further feedback
This problem was raised here and on an external website

Separately, I have been concerned with the effect of the education program on medical content-- considering declining participation in Wikipedia, I don't believe we can keep up with the bad content being added by students:

Problems with student editing, discussed at WP:ENB, moved to newly created WP:ENI: original thread
Continued discussion at User talk:SandyGeorgia
Continued discussion at User talk:MastCell
Separate but related discussion at User talk:Jimbo Wales

Those discussions led to various proposals at:

User talk:Alanyst/sandbox/reliability disclaimer

Other language Wikipedia medical disclaimers

Wikipedia language	Number of articles	Template	Position in article
Chinese	732,000	zh:Template:Medical small	Top
Dutch	1,700,000	nl:Sjabloon:Disclaimer medisch lemma	Top
German	1,600,000	de:Wikipedia:Hinweis Gesundheitsthemen	Bottom
Indonesian	322,000	id:Templat:Penyangkalan-medis	Top
Norwegian	399,000	no:Mal:Helsenotis	Bottom
Portuguese	802,000	pt:Predefinição:Aviso médico	Section: Treatment
Turkish	220,000	tr:Şablon:TıpUyarı	Top

Proposed

This proposed version for use on en.wikipedia emerged from discussion at User talk:Alanyst/sandbox/reliability disclaimer and several other on-Wiki talk pages and external websites:

I am planning to install it on Tourette syndrome (where I am the only significant contributor) unless a significant consensus against emerges. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:28, 29 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Are you proposing to blanket this template on all medical pages, or just a selection, and if so how are the articles to be selected? Lesion (talk) 20:34, 29 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

And for those of is that have missed all those discussions elsewhere, could You explain the reasons to add it? --WS (talk) 20:38, 29 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I've added the discussions I'm aware of above; there may be some I missed. I'm not "proposing to blanket this template" anywhere yet, but I do believe it's time to reconsider and discuss. There is too much evidence that people take Wikipedia medical content seriously, and aren't aware much of it is written by RandyFromBoise. As I am the "RandyFromBoise" author of a medical FA, I am more than happy to be one test case, and install the disclaimer. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:01, 30 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I would support adding it to the bottom of all medical articles by bot. Additionally would want it centered. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 00:05, 30 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I want it at the top of drugs, conditions, but not BLPs. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:45, 30 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

We have WP:NDA. Much content exist on the web that is wrong. Maybe we need to convince manufactures of computers to add a warning when people turn their computers on or log onto the internet. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 01:54, 30 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

When you buy a power tool, it says "Warning, death may result". Not, warning if you're a dork and don't know how to use this tool, death may result. Anyway, thanks for the link to the NDA page (which I note is guideline, not policy)-- I will point that page here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:07, 30 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I would support a trial if it combined a stronger statement inviting people to edit. I think anthony proposed somethinglike this a couple of years ago. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 02:23, 30 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Per WP:NDA, it's weird that we consider {{recent death}} and {{current}} reason enough for a disclaimer, but not potentially life-altering content. I wouldn't mind working in some of your wording, but I'm still in favor of a more prominent disclaimer. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:41, 30 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

How about this version (below)? It links the disclaimer more subtly to make the box smaller and makes the text a little less semicolon-happy. I also think "medical content" sounds a bit weird, like "content used as medicine", so I thought "do not rely on it for medical guidance" is a bit more clear. (I'll add this to the versions in my userspace as well.) alanyst 04:52, 30 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I like Alanyst's version. Would be interested in trialing it to see if it increases the frequency of positive edits. I know last time we tried this people came around and removed them. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 06:39, 30 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

BLPs

I would propose that we remove BLPs from WPMED. I consider this to be a project more about diseases and their treatments than about specific individuals. There is WP:BIOG.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 01:42, 30 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Ack -- there are plenty of medical BLPs that fall within our territory and need our expertise. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:45, 30 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think they belong here. BIO is really a catchall, rather than a home for all BLPs, it is tough to have medicine without people. Perhaps a Disease task force, but certainly not removing bios. Canada Hky (talk) 01:49, 30 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Medical cannabis

I've begun cleaning up primary sources, but the task there is larger than one editor can complete. Any help? I know there are reviews on some uses ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:52, 30 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This is a good example of the problems I mention above ... there is no way I can get to everything in this article myself, it is citing primary sources galore, and because it looked well cited, people might take medical advice from it. Help!!! Or add a disclaimer. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:04, 30 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I can imagine this will be tricky (not having looked at it yet), and a good example of why elevating at least some of MEDRS to policy would be useful. WP:DISCLAIM would be cited against disclaimers. Alexbrn ^{talk|contribs|COI} 02:21, 30 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

We allow {{current}} and {{recent death}}; would ya think medical misinfo is at least as important? Anyway, on Medical cannabis, I can strip the primary sources, but since I don't have full journal access, it's harder for me to re-add reviews. I Would Love Some Help in there-- it's massive. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:39, 30 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Oh sure, personally I think the quality of medical content on WP is a big (maybe one of its biggest) problems; I'm just anticipating the arguments you'll run into in what is likely to be a controversial editing area ... Alexbrn ^{talk|contribs|COI} 02:52, 30 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

^ Olson, R.A., Huszti, H.C., Mason, P.J., & Seibert, J.M. (1989). Pediatric AIDS/HIV infection: An emerging challenge to pediatric psychology. Journal of Pediatric Psychology, 14(1), 1-21.
^ ^a ^b Domek, G.J. (2009). Facing adolescence and adulthood: The importance of mental health care in the global pediatric AIDS epidemic. Journal of Developmental & Behavioral Pediatrics, 30, 147-150.
^ Benton, T.D. (2010). Treatment of psychiatric disorders in children and adolescents with HIV/AIDS.Current Psychiatry Reports, 12, 104-110.

[Olson-1] Olson, R.A., Huszti, H.C., Mason, P.J., & Seibert, J.M. (1989). Pediatric AIDS/HIV infection: An emerging challenge to pediatric psychology. Journal of Pediatric Psychology, 14(1), 1-21.

[Domek-2] Domek, G.J. (2009). Facing adolescence and adulthood: The importance of mental health care in the global pediatric AIDS epidemic. Journal of Developmental & Behavioral Pediatrics, 30, 147-150.

[3] Benton, T.D. (2010). Treatment of psychiatric disorders in children and adolescents with HIV/AIDS.Current Psychiatry Reports, 12, 104-110.

[1]

[2]

[3]

@@ Line 68: / Line 68: @@
 [[User:Lbockhorn|Lbockhorn]] ([[User talk:Lbockhorn|talk]]) 00:59, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
 : Bad title, merge and delete.  [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<font color="green">Georgia</font>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 14:05, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
+Thank you for your response. However, I have been advised by our education coordinator not to remove any of the material in the article that originated from Nutrition. I found this to be a perfectly advisable strategy. I foresee that eventually someone may find it useful to provide more information about nutrition not pertaining to humans in the article [[Nutrition]], therefore, I would not like to be responsible for removing human specific information from [[Human Nutrition]]. Thank you for your suggestion.
+[[User:Lbockhorn|Lbockhorn]] ([[User talk:Lbockhorn|talk]]) 08:41, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
 == [[Intersex]] article ==