Talk:List of Polish monarchs

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Aftermath

Now that all (?) of the agreed upon moves have been carried out, it's time to clean up the usage and especially any remaining double redirects. Definetly we should start by eliminating all redirects from this list and then from the Template:Monarchs of Poland.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 20:10, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Double redirects ought have been eliminated as soon as the moves were done. At any rate, what agreed upon moves? I've objected to nearly all of them, and my criticisms have not really been addressed. john k 20:37, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, a sample articles I have checked have dr fixed, so it was more of a general reminder. I am not sure which of your criticisms have not been addressed, but I cannot fail to note that you were the only voice of criticisms here. We both have advertised this discussion, and the few people who joined it seem to support my proposal. I'd have wished for more votes, alas, we have to act on what we got, and it has been over a month since I first made the proposal - how long can we wait? This page was left in poor shape for years... at least now we have a consistent naming system, without the terrible latinized versions.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 10:55, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

I am not the only voice of criticism - Gabbe also objected to at least some of the proposed changes, and Khrystene appears to have agreed with my proposed compromise. At any rate, there's only three of you (you, Logologist, Appleseedadvocating the change, and I don't see that 3-1 can be considered consensus. Had I chosen, there are people who I could have contacted who I suspect would have agreed with me. I'd also be interested to see what would have happened had you posted each proposed move at Wikipedia:Requested moves. It is not fair to claim consensus when there's been so little input, over all. I would note, in addition, that I provided considerable evidence that anglicized names were used much more commonly than the Polish names, and nobody has really bothered to try to counter this by providing evidence of usage of names like "Zygmunt," "Kazimierz," and "August" in English for the Polish monarchs of those names. john k 09:56, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, Piotrus, but in fact I opposed too. I did not want to interfere after the move was already done, but I am still not sure the Polish-Polish names are the best option here, especially that it's quite common to translate the names of virtually all European rulers to English. Halibutt 21:17, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

I just found this discussion, and have to agree that I too am opposed and horrified at how some of these changes were pushed through in the face of opposition, and without clear consensus. The correct naming convention is that the articles should have the most commonly-used English name. Anything that was moved to a Polish spelling, should be moved back. If there is any disagreement, I recommend increasing visibility of this discussion by posting it to Wikipedia:Requests for comment/All#Language and linguistics. Elonka 00:33, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

By all means, post it there, but I think that most of the moves were done to the name corresponding with the most common name (google hits). Of course there is the diactrics issue, but this has been settled by Polish editors long time ago with the agreement to use diactrics, and this has never been seriously opposed anywhere (to the best of my knowledge). All things considered, if you or john or sb else want to move any name back (or to sth new), please suggest doing so: while there has been some discussion about general naming rules, I don't recall any alternative names being suggested, and research we did clearly proved that old names were the 'worst of both worlds' - but not widely used in English and not close to Polish original versions.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 01:15, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

The moves were horrid. I'm not too fussed, but diactrics should not be there. I support these pages being moved back to English versions of their names. Polonizing the names of monarchs at least makes it difficult to maintain the credibility of Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English), although it's probably worthless and unbeneficial to try to keep more obscure Polish names English. - Calgacus 00:11, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Mmm Piotrus, I hasn't idea there is any discussion about this naming scheme. I was kind a wondering why the pages have been moved from previous naming scheme (name cardinal of X) to other. I am strongly opposing this idea. Native spelling is of course the way to go, but INSIDE the article. The name of the article is what names and titles convention was about (though it advices making redirects too). In other words, no Władysław Jagiełło, but Wladislaw II of Poland AND in the article Władysław II Jagiełło, Jahajla, Jogaila in prominent place. This was always the way to go when I was more active. Szopen 08:18, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

I support johnk, Halibut, Elonka, Calgacus and Szopen on this one. Question: who's going to perform all the work, of reverting moves/edits? Can I be of any help? Further remark: it is by now clear that this article talk page has been used to dodge consensus-building: consensus should've been established first on Wikipedia:Guidelines for the spelling of names of Polish rulers (as that was the page linked from the guideline Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles)) - instead a whole circumvention of guidelines operation took place: the guideline was declared inactive, in order to drive what looks like a cabal. --Francis Schonken 15:31, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Can you do it? We have to work out which ones will get reverted. And, will we be adopting the form "X II of Y"?- Calgacus 15:44, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

There are two steps:

1. determining which would be the best page names for Polish Rulers. I'm not an expert on that. For instance, I have no idea whether the list presently on Wikipedia:Guidelines for the spelling of names of Polish rulers is any good. Could you have a look at the second column of the table on that page? Maybe best to re-activate that guideline, that is done by replacing the {{historical}} tag on top of that page by {{proposed}}, and (re-)listing in the usual places (wikipedia:Current surveys and Wikipedia:Village pump (policy) for naming conventions guidelines). Also, for instance, people like johnk are the real experts on naming of royals, I'm not, so listing on wikipedia:naming conventions (names and titles) might be a good idea too.
2. Once that is completed, the moving of pages is not really my cup of tea (I'm no sysop), but I could always hemp with listing WP:RM requests, if that is the chosen path to mass-move Polish Rulers (another path may be chosen in the process of establishing consensus on Wikipedia:Guidelines for the spelling of names of Polish rulers)

Anyway I sorta listed this issue on Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#Tutorial: how to circumvent guidelines & consensus-building already... (but better re-list on Village Pump too, when re-opening Wikipedia:Guidelines for the spelling of names of Polish rulers) --Francis Schonken 16:12, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure I'd be the one to do it. For my efforts, Piotrus, despite being an admin, is going around calling me names on the talk pages of fellow Polish users, such as Troll and POV Pusher. So if that's how an the only admin seriously concerned with this project is prepared to portrray me, I'm probably a bad choice to carry out the work. One think I would like to know is dating numerals. Jogaila is called on wiki Wladyslaw II, but most of my scholarly books when they call him Wladyslaw call him Wladyslaw IV, so I'm guessing a rather sensitive form of dating is going on, perhaps having something to do with the transition from Duchy to Kingdom. So, we do have to work out if we're doing X of Poland, or "X, Duke of Poland", or work around this when it has already taken place. - Calgacus 16:26, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Polish rulers) (I re-activated) --Francis Schonken 16:48, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

...and don't worry too much about the name-calling... If the work is good, wikipedians will appreciate. Really try people like john k to get re-involved (he's a sysop too if I'm recalling correctly). --Francis Schonken 16:55, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Also listed at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (names and titles)#Polish monarchs, hope that attracts some people too! --Francis Schonken 17:10, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

I am happy to see that this page is getting more attention. If only you guys came here few months ago (and this name change was advertised in many places, from RfC to W:NC) we could have avoided the 'bad blood' (also some people should keep in mind that talk first, move second is a good thumb rule...). But it is never to late to fix/improve things on Wiki. Although I - obviously - like the naming scheme we (me, Logologist and Appleseed) came up with, I am not claiming we are perfect. Since it appears that more people are getting into the issue now and the number of people opposed to our naming scheme is growing, perhaps we can improve it and work out a real consensus at the reactivated (tnx, Francis) Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Polish rulers). I suggest we move further discussion to Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (use English), as it is more suited then this page (which was used only because few months ago nobody was watching the outdated other page).--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 17:15, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Piotrus, I am not accusing you of acting in bad faith. In fact, I know that you had perfectly good intentions. Indeed I missed the proposals somehow, don't know really why, so I am not accusing you of not advertising enough. However, now when I know it, I think one should stick with the good all rules established in names and titles. It is only about article names (to make disambiguation and linking easier), not about the content inside if I am not mistaken. Szopen 09:30, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

I like your scheme for the most part, but I don't agree with changing Casimir to Kazimierz, while terms like Ladislaus were clearly ridiculous. Every English source I have ever read is pretty consistent with using Casimir.--Milicz 23:35, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Anyway, the guideline table was put by me on a separate page, that can be used in a template fashion, as shown below. Note that if clicking the "edit" link of that table, the separate page opens, and all changes will be visible in the three places where the table is presently displayed (that is on this talk page; on the Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Polish rulers) proposal page, and on the talk page of the same)

Piotr's suggestion to provide links to the talk page discussions where decisions on the naming of individual monarchs were made, still has to be implemented (feel free to proceed!) --Francis Schonken 09:27, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Why are the Polish monarchs all kept in the Polish language? I thought we are on the English language Wikipedia? Gryffindor 14:35, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Beacouse there are several English variants and there is no good way to chose one of them. Thus by using Polish names (and there is only one in most cases) we are at least consistent with the primary source. Please read the discussion above for the long version of this answer.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 18:26, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Another reason is that there is a small group of Polish nationals on Wikipedia who have been pushing their own agenda: Renaming articles from English names to what they regard as the "correct" Polish-language names. Some of these Wikipedians (including at least one admin) seem to think that if they can push through the changes in the face of opposition, that they'll have a claim for making the changes stick during future discussions. Since the Polish nationals have remained organized via their own noticeboard, and have an admin in their number who often generates "calls to action" to get them all posting on a particular page, they are often able to all chime in to a particular discussion, and make it look as though there's a community consensus to keep the Polish name, when in reality it's just the same group of Poles posting over and over, moving from page to page, and in general ignoring or belittling [1] any opposition. --Elonka 21:06, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

And one day we will take over the world...--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 02:56, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

File:Red-x.gif

This proposal was rejected by the community. It is inactive but retained for historical interest. If you want to revive discussion on this subject, try using the talk page or start a discussion at the village pump.

Table

In office as ruler of Poland (for some approx.)	Polish name (from pl:wikipedia)	Page name at en:Wikipedia	Remarks
Monarchs
...	...	...	...
1386-1434	Władysław II Jagiełło	Wladyslaw II/V of Poland, Jogaila of Lithuania	Compromise, since Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles) has no special provisions when a ruler changes name when acquiring a second realm (this ruler was in office in Lithuania since 1377, he didn't receive his Christian name Wladyslaw until conversion to catholicism when acquiring the Polish throne); Double numbering ("II" and "V") while both are used when referring to this Polish ruler: "II" is more common (but overlaps with another Polish ruler, see Wladislaw II of Poland dab page); "V" is less ambiguous, and is also often used. "Jagiello" (the Polish version of Jogaila) is not used in the wikipedia page name while overlapping with another Wladyslaw II Jagiello, see Ladislaus Jagiello dab page.
...	...	...	...
1573-1574	Henryk III Walezy	Henry III of France	per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles), better known as ruler of France
1575-1587 (most of the reign together with her husband Stefan Batory)	Anna Jagiellonka	Anna of Poland	per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles), "Anne/Anna Jagiellon(ka)" overlaps with at least two other women (that, btw, also both can be called "Anna of Poland", see Anna of Poland) - because of the unavoidable confusion whatever way it is turned, the "names and titles" guideline is applied very strict in this case, while considered least confusing in Wikipedia context
1576-1586	Stefan Batory	Stefan Batory	per most used in English; note that there is some ambiguity with his father, a namesake in common English spelling, but presently at the Hungarian spelling of the name, István Báthory
1587-1632	Zygmunt III Waza	Sigismund III of Poland	per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles), best known as ruler of Poland, although (for some years) also ruler of Sweden. Compare Henry III of France above: it's not because this ruler is better known in France than in Poland, that his name would suddenly be written in French (not "Henri III de France", and even less "Henri III (de) Valois"). So also for this Sigismund the spelling most common in English is used, applying the names & titles guideline: First name: "Zygmunt" (Polish) or "Sigismund" (Swedish, but also most common in English, compare Sigismund of Burgundy, in French this name would be "Sigismond")? → Sigismund "Waza" or "Wasa" or "Vasa" (as in: House of Vasa) or "of Poland"? → only of Poland is free of Polish/Swedish ethnic tension, and is not all that unusual in English. Note that the ordinal "III" also only applies to of Poland (in Swedish there is usually no ordinal)
...	...	...	...
1669-1673	Michał Korybut Wiśniowiecki	Michael Korybut Wisniowiecki	per most used in English
1674-1696	Jan III Sobieski	Jan III Sobieski	per most used in English
...	...	...	...
Presidents
...	...	...	...
2005-...	Lech Kaczyński	Lech Kaczynski	English spelling of name according to the English pages on The official website of the City of Warsaw (PS, the same website spells Lech Kaczyński on its pages in Polish [2])
...	...	...	...

Move the names back to English

To those who have been moving articles to Polish names without consensus: It is time to stop. The best way to handle things would be to voluntarily admit that this was inappropriate, and help with fixing things. If necessary though, we will just go article by article and prove that there is consensus to move the articles back to their English-language names. To start, interested parties are invited to check the following pages and cast their vote:

• Talk:Zygmunt I the Old (should probably be Sigismund I)
• Talk:Zygmunt II August (should probably be Sigismund II or Sigismund Augustus)
• Talk:Zygmunt III Vasa (should be Sigismund III Vasa)

--Elonka 03:09, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I appreciate that you have seen the value of consensus-backed move - I understand it means you will refrain from arbitrary moves yourself and respect the decisions of the community. That's great - through such understanding Wikipedia becomes better :) Still, I wonder why have you gave up on discussion at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Polish rulers) and started a new one of individual pages? Of course posting notices about the NC discussion there is a good idea, but I see no such links there. I'd have thought that you'd want to attract more attention to that NC discussion, especially as you claim it is dominated by the Polish nationalists and so I'd presume that you'd want to encourage others to contribute there to ensure more neutral POVs?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 03:37, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

There has been this attempt to create a naming system specifically for Polish monarchs (but it is just a proposal and never received consensus), against the system used for other European monarchs. There is also the fact that most Polish monarchs now are located in places which contravene to general naming convention. There is no consensus for permission to use an exception for Polish monarchs, and such permission should be sought from consensus atWikipedia talk:Naming conventions (names and titles) where there is the thread Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (names and titles)#Need of particular exception/ convention for Polish monarchs. At that spot there are editors who are more or less experienced in overall picture of monarch naming and not only one country. It is deception to advertise any system for naming before a consensus there is convinced of the need for such exception. I hope all of you continue the naming scheme discussion for Polish monarchs there, before continuing or creating policy forks. Shilkanni 13:02, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

This I recently posted at the appropriate discussion and I am reposting it here:

For the record, I support moving all people to their appropriate English names. The English name of the current king of Spain is Juan Carlos and the English name of a certain famous Greek ruler of antiquity who lived before there was an English language or even widespread use of the Latin alphabet is Alexander the Great. Go figure. The Polish monarchs are best known by Anglicisations and should be titled in articles as such. These are convenient for two reasons: they are pronounceable to those unfamiliar with Polish (there are some of us) and they are more common in English literature, especially of the nonspecialist variety. Wikipedia, though it should be scholarly and factual, is nonspecialist.

Srnec 18:25, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Use of ordinals

The truthful use of regnal numbers is not a simple matter. It is not something done just by counting (beware of WP:OR). These rulers, as usually all others, did not usually use ordinals in Middle Ags (only a few monarchs then did that). Most of medieval ordinals are retrospective. When early modern age came, they started often use those, but made themselves all sorts of counting mistakes - or wanted to emphasize something that is POV to us. At first, regnal numbers were used for disambiguation by the monarchs themselves - to distinguis from father or grandfather, rulers easily in memories of subjects and others. Only much later, regnal numbers grew to also be used as pointers of legitimacy. Either that of the holder or of the predecessor he wanted to advertise as legitimate or condemn as usurper.

Use of regnal numbers should, avoiding OR, happen with following guidelines:

1. Do not use any regnal number that either has not been used by established works of reference or not been in contemporaneous official use. Do not invent regnal numbers.

2. If a ruler's regnal number regarding his "highest title" or "most important realm" is controversial (at least two alternatives), do not use it in the article name. Use other disambiguation instead. We do not want our artice names reflect something that can reasonably cause confusion or editwarring. In article names, use only truly used or authoritatively assigned regnal numbers, provided its value does not contravene with the first sentence.

3. Explain the use and assignations of regnal numbers of the subject in the article. Use refers to contemporaneous use, assignation refers to retrospective use in works of reference and official king lists of that country. Of course if a regnal number is only an invention of royalist fringes or writers of not respected publications, it does not need to be explained. Sometimes non-use could be explained.

Information of regnal numbers actually used contemporaneously is available at [3]. Marrtel 09:38, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Apparently, the first to use ordinal in Poland was Premislas II sometime in c 1295. The Bohemian Venceslases as Polish rulers did not - their numbers II and III are presumably attacvhed by later literature. Neither, contrary to common belief, apparently did Ladislas the Short - and, literature assigns him varying ones: IV and I, the latter because he was the first crowned head although there had been three earlier ksiaze-overlords of same name. Not Casimir III - his is assognation by literature, but it does not vary there. The first Ladislas Jagello apparently did not use - and literature assigns varyingly V and II, and additionally he was I in Lithuania. But his son, that of Varna fame, did use "Vladislas III" in some Polish letters/proclamations. Surprisingly enough, his brother Casimir (referred to as IV of literature) used Casimir III those rare times he used any numbering. Sigismund II apparently did not himself used the regnal number, he used consistently "Sigismund August". Sigismund III used that Tertius. Ladislas IV used that Quartus. John II used "John Casimir" without ordinal. Wisniowiecki used "Michael I" (Michael primus). Sobieski used John III (and not the surname). August II used that ordinal. August III used that ordinal. Marrtel 10:01, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

A couple of thoughts here - Regarding your guidelines, Marrtel...

1. I fully agree. However, when contemporary use conflicts with the modern designation (as established by respected reference works, textbooks, etc.), we go with the modern designation, rather than the contemporary one.
2. How do we determine this? Is it controversial that England is more important than Scotland? Is it controversial that we should have Charles III of Spain and not Charles VII of Naples? What about Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor rather than Charles I of Spain? This could become problematic.
3. I think explanations only need to be given when the ordinal was not in use in the monarchs own time, or when it has some special significance - the first monarch to use an ordinal, or whatever. For instance, I think it's useful to mention that Francis I of France was, apparently, the first monarch to use the ordinal "the first". It's not terribly important to mention that his grandson Francis II used the ordinal "the second" because his grandfather was "Francis the First". john k 11:59, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

With that point 2 I mean the case if the monarch's regnal number is not clear with the one and same kingdom. Here, Poland. I do not mean the case where he has rights to several monarchies and therefore differing numerals. An example which I mean is Vladislaus the Short, who was the first of his own branch (and of the restored monarchy) but the fourth in succession to his ancestors and predecessors, earlier monarchs of Poland (of whom some used kingly title and some were ksiaze). He would not, in all credible scenarios, have become king of Poland if he were not a successor of those earlier ones. He clearly recognized them as his predecessors. And he himself did not use the ordinal, as far as I have researched the matter. However, certain later monarchs (culprits apparently are the one of Varna and the Vasa one) sort of created him as the first Vladislaus, by taking an ordinal leaving no room for predecessors of the Short one. Literature has varied in its treatment, and the two ordinals are variably shown in various sources. Marrtel 13:47, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Okay, got it. It seems fair, then, to not use the ordinal for Wladyslaw the Short or for Wladyslaw Jagiello, but to have Wladyslaw III of Poland and Wladyslaw IV of Poland go to the Varna and Vasa monarchs? The other Wladyslaw III should be at Wladyslaw III, Duke of Poland, I think, and there should be disambiguation notices at the tops of both Wladyslaw III of Poland and Wladyslaw IV of Poland to point people to the proper place. Wladyslaw I of Poland and Wladyslaw II of Poland should be disambiguation pages. That seem sensible? john k 13:56, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, very much. Although Wladyslaw III of Varna is also monarch of Hungary and it is a battle what his realm(s) are in naming and what is the variant of the first name. Personally I cannot see why a king of Hungary should have a Polish spelling in en-Wiki, when there are more neutral alternatives such as "Vladislas" available, neither Polish nor Hungarian. Perhaps the solution to that problem helps yet more us with disambiguation these Wladyslaw III guys from each other. But that battle belongs to the talkpage of the Varna one. X, Duke of N is a good format for earlier ruers, but real sources should be checked whether any individual one of them was Duke of Cracow orr Duke of Poland or High Duke of some variant. These were used, and not consistently. Marrtel 14:18, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Also, shouldn't this discussion go at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (names and titles)? john k 11:59, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Do not worry. I think now that if something good is processed from this discvussion, I'll take them to that geberal guideline discussion. At this stage, perhaps you can help to get the ideas above verbally formulated so not very much confusion or misunderstandings are caused. For example, that point 2 should be formulted in a way that also others get it. Marrtel 14:18, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Tables

I don't see the point of uglifying the list by adding those unsightly tables along with detailed information that is best obtained from the monarch articles. Appleseed (Talk) 11:48, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Tables are tidy. We practically need table to have two variants of the name tidily beside each other. Without tabulation, they may look ugly. And when table is in use, also dates of reigns, and title, and additinal notes are tidily in their own columns.

If only one variant of the name is left here, that means it must be the English one. Not a Polish spelling. Sorry it such ruffles your feathers. But English variants shall be displayed in this Wikipedia. For Polish language, there is another Wikipedia, you know, the Polish one. So, the two names beside each other is a goodwill towards those who desire the Polish name is shown. Otherwise it will not. Hope you do not fight this any more. Shilkanni 13:29, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Those tables weren't tidy. They were of various width, the borders were ugly, and many of the cells were empty. As for the names, they weren't supposed to be "English" or "Polish"; they simply linked to the corresponding article (which may have been a redirect if the pages were moved since the last edit). My concern is about putting so much information into a simple list that it requires a table. The only really relevant information for this article is the name of the monarch and the years he ruled. Appleseed (Talk) 15:19, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Tables are generally better, I think. The particular table for this page wasn't terribly attractive, but it can be removed - it's certainly better than the bulleted list format. Also: Anyone support having full dates, rather than just years? john k 13:57, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Can you explain why you think a table is certainly better than a list? I favor the list format because it is elegant and simple. The purpose of this list is to organize the monarchs chronologically and to link to their articles. I think adding more data that requires a table is overkill. Appleseed (Talk) 15:24, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

The current list is hardly elegant. It's quite unattractive in my opinion. And I don't see why the purpose of the list should simply be to list them chronologically and link to their articles. Having a table which provides more information seems useful. john k 17:13, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Appleseed. The list was better. KonradWallenrod 06:25, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Title of the overlord

I have trued to make sense of how English world calls these overlords of the fragmentary period. In Polish it is something like wielky ksiaze (do not ask me to put any diacriticals to these words). There may exist some established translations, and/but there certainly are several possibilities how to translate - as accurately as possible it would probably be "High Prince", wouldn't it?

I am somewhat against using the pure "Duke", because the ksiazes under this overlord seem to be expressed by term duke in English. And the precisely same term does not express the relation/ subjugation between them. What are the prefixes to the duke the English literature uses for these overlords? (I would hate if it were Grand Duke)?. Is "High Duke" any sort of established usage, or just some original research?

Would it be too bad to use "Overlord of Poland" or "Overlord of the Polanes" as title?

Is it totally wrong to use any of the titles Great Prince, Grand Prince and High Prince??

This would be needed so biography articles of these would be consistent. Please write your knoewledge upon the subject. Maed 23:22, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

In Polish it's "książę zwierzchni", overlord. All of the Polish monarchs during the fragmentation were dukes, but not all were overlords. Some were just dukes of Kraków. Appleseed (Talk) 00:07, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Certainly not High Prince (not according to our current defintion :>). That said, this is a very good question. First issue to consider is whether to call them prince or duke, second - whether we need any 'high/grand' or other adjective. To the first I would suggest prince, especially as Polish sources are pretty consistent with 'książę' (Polish for prince). Second gets tricky, and I will admit that I have not dealt much with Polish history before 16th centuries. Currently the en-wiki misses articles like pl:Polska w okresie rozbicia dzielnicowego (Fragmentation of Poland, just a redirect) or more to the point, pl:Książęta dzielnicowi Polski. This article uses an interesting title: "książe dzielnicowy". It is somewhat hard to translate. During the time of fragmentation (and is *this* the right translation? I haven't checked...) the Poland was divided into several princedoms, called 'dzielnice' (quarters). The rulers of those 'dzielnice' where called 'prince of quarters' ('książe dzielnicowy'). I am however not sure if this is the dominant term used in Polish literature, and I have no idea how it is properly translated. Until we do more research, I'd suggest calling them prince of Poland and adding links to fragmentation article where possible for clarification. And the best way to avoid any (re)naming confusion is to avoid inclusion of any 'king of, prince of, and of what' in titles of Polish monarchs (or princes, or whatver :>).--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 00:41, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

The most common formulation in books seems to be "Duke of Poland" [4] (provide other counts if you think I missed something). But this seems so unacceptable to me, there should be a way to express by short title that these were not same-level rulers as dukes, their vassals. We should not go to OR, but surely some English sources have used some added thing, great/grand/high? This is now a question to make a convention, as the situation needs it. How about "Overlord Duke of Poland" which is a direct translation of that polish term Appleseed wrote above. Maed 12:43, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Nomenclature

The nomenclature for Polish monarchs must be discussed and systematised now. Issues about titling are coming up on various talk pages for various monarchs, threatening to cause greater inconsistency than we currently have. I reproduce my comments from Talk:Władysław II Jagiełło below:

Now, I doubt the effectiveness of all this polling on specific names: there are just too many possible permutations for this poor fellow. It may be best to work by deciding whether or not the page should have diacritics in the title. I think there will be a supermajority saying "no" and the page could be moved preliminarily to "Wladyslaw II Jagiello." Then further voting could determine whether or not both the Polish and Lithuanian names are needed in some form or other. Then it could be determined what forms of the names are wanted: Jagiello or Jogaila, Wladyslaw or Ladislaus, etc. Next, it could be determined whether or not an ordinal number is necessary and whether or not a qualifier such as "of Poland" or "Grand Duke of Lithuania and King of Poland" is necessary. The end result would be a name that satisifes majority opinion on all aspects of this complicated name. I, personally, could live with that. Srnec 02:05, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Systematization of Polish monarchs has taken place in other places than Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (names and titles) (which would be the logical place for systematic rules), and all those attempts, when executed (against opposition) have met criticism that "it was in some nook or cranny of Wikipedia" and accusation of cabal making an agreement between themselves secreted from others. Would we be any more trusting to any systematics made now here in this discussion?

That said, I open a clearly-defined discussion (poll) below, about diacriticals vs no diacriticals in article names of Polish monarchs, and I put an announcement about it to RM. Marrtel 12:07, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Poll: article names of Polish monarchs, diacritics accepted or not

This is to survey the community sum of opinion about whether diacriticals are to be used in article names of Polish monarchs (provided the article name even has any Polish names, an issue not to be polled here but sorted out later). Limit your opinions to the question of whether you support diacritics in these article names or oppose it. Marrtel 12:15, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Poll

Write Support if you want diacritics present in these article names always when the monarch's name is in Polish, and Oppose if you oppose diacritics in the case the name of the monarch is in its Polish rendition. This means the question between Bolesław vs Boleslaw, Jagiełło vs Jagiello, Władysław vs Wladyslaw. An optional one-line reason can be written here, but all longer opinions should go to the Discussion below.

• Oppose use of diacritics in those cases. These medieval (or 16th-17th c) persons should not be rendered in today usage of Polish, acceptable only perhaps to Polish commoners of most recent centuries. The drive to put diacritics to all sorts of names is going unhealthy when these cases are diacriticalized, as the language their time did not yet use such and these names went to English literature in routes other than through modern Polish. Marrtel 12:17, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose - Diacritics, especially Polish diacritics, make articles much more difficult to link to (it takes me about a minute to track down the proper letter and then copy/paste it), they interfere with proper alphabetization in category listings, are visually very intimidating to many English-speakers, cause confusion for pronounciation, and do not always display correctly on all web browsers. Many English-language reference works routinely make it policy to omit all diacritics of any kind, as a way to maintain consistency. --Elonka 13:47, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose - Polish diacritics don't provide any extra information for the vast majority of English-speakers, and, indeed, can not show up on web some browsers. We should give the form with diacritics in the first line. john k 14:13, 13 June 2006 (UTC)