Talk:The Ed Sullivan Show

Citations

The lack of citations on this page is pitiful. Plenty of outlandish claims about rumours of elvis wearing a "device" of some sort, with no citation mentioned to back it up. Is this reference really needed? And if so, shouldn't it be sourced? --66.150.98.32 01:55, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

The list shows Nat King Cole as appearing on the show in 1949, when the wikipedia page on Cole says he wasn't on until 1955.

The Doors

"Jim Morrison, the band's lead singer, agreed but changed his mind after a quick band meeting and sang the orignal line instead with notice to the show's producers."

Shouldn't this be WITHOUT notice, or does this mean Morrison looked at the show's producers while singing the line? NjtoTX 12:23, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

That is one GREAT picture

Kudos to JillandJack. It captures the absolute essence of Ed Sullivan's television persona. Dpbsmith (talk) 17:10, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

The line "Although Elvis' appearances are considered the most famous rock and roll performances on Ed Sullivan" seems kind of biased doesn't it? What about the Beatles' famous performance that was at least equally influential on rock and roll (if not more), but hey, I could be a little biased too. Nonetheless, any suggestions?

• We should see if we can find a source that says this... however, IMHO the statement, which I didn't write, is true enough. To the best of my recollection the Elvis appearance had more impact than the Beatles because it was first. Nothing quite like it had ever been on television before. The Beatles' appearance was sort of like the second Apollo moon landing. In one way, it was just as big a deal, maybe bigger. But in another way, well, people watched it because they thought it would be sort of like the Elvis appearance again. Dpbsmith (talk) 01:05, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the response. Here are a couple of sources:

1) Beatles' 'Ed Sullivan' appearance rated rock's top TV moment

  http://archives.cnn.com/2000/SHOWBIZ/TV/07/25/tv.rocks.ap/

2) On Sunday, February 9, millions of North Americans waited in front of small black and white television sets in anticipation of seeing this new phenomenon from Britain. The audience for that show alone is estimated to be over 70 million people.

http://webhome.idirect.com/~faab/AbbeyRoad/sullivan.htm

3)"No televised musical performance ever packed more of an impact than the Beatles’ first time on The Ed Sullivan Show, and it seems unlikely another ever will." -- Colin Jacobson

http://dvdmg.com/edsullivanpresentsthebeatles.shtml

• Fantastic! I stand corrected. I'd say the first and third deserve to go into the article, not merely as marking the Beatles' as being bigger than Elvis, but as testimony to the importance of the Ed Sullivan show. Do you want to do the honors? Dpbsmith (talk) 18:44, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

The Beatles' miscellanea

Check The Beatles' miscellanea to see if there is anything in it you can use. A lot of 'miscellanea' needs to be trimmed (as linked articles are improved) so please feel free to use anything before certain sections get zapped into the ether... ThE bEaTLeS aka andreasegde 16:30, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Wizard of Oz?

Can someone tell me when it was a ritual for families to gather to watch network broadcasts of The Wizard of Oz? I've never heard that before. -- Mwalcoff 02:12, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:SullivanPresleyHoundDogOct1956.jpg

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BetacommandBot 04:57, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Ban List?

There is a long list of performers who were banned from the show. Anyone up to the challenge of listing who and why?

From the Bo_Diddley article, Carreer section"

On November 20, 1955, he was the first African-American to appear on The Ed Sullivan Show, only to infuriate him. ("I did two songs and he got mad," Bo Diddley later recalled. "Ed Sullivan said that I was one of the first niggers to ever double-cross him. Said that I wouldn't last six months.") Bo Diddley was asked to sing Tennessee Ernie Ford's hit "Sixteen Tons". But when he appeared on stage, he sang his #1 R&B hit "Bo Diddley." He was banned from further appearances. The Doors and comedian Jackie Mason would later join Bo Diddley on the list of performers banned from The Ed Sullivan Show.

Sorry for the uncut quote, but I felt it was relevant. --Yue.san 09:19, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

It may be relevant, but you need to cite the source. Just taking it from another Wikipedia article isn't sufficient, especially if that article doesn't cite a source, either. I can find nothing to support the claim that Diddley was "banned" so I have added a citation needed tag. 68.146.41.232 (talk) 15:01, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Bo Diddley was by no means the first African American on Sullivan's show. It is highly unlikely that Sullivan used the word "nigger", although Diddley may have been quoted with that version of what happened. Not asking someone back is not, in my opinion, the same as "banning" them. Check the Bo Diddley article for references on previous appearances by blacks in case I don't get to it. In the meatime I'm going to delete those sentences since they are obviously incorrect. Steve Pastor (talk) 17:43, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

first African American on the Sullivan Show?

This is from the Discussion page, not in the article.

Not by a long shot. Count Basie was on the 8/29/1948 show. [1] Steve Pastor (talk) 18:05, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Ever hear of Pearl Bailey? [2] September 25, 1955 Steve Pastor (talk) 18:11, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Louis Armstrong, Lena Horne, Cab Calloway, Eartha Kitt, there's quite a list of blacks who were on before Bo. Steve Pastor (talk) 18:18, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Who performed with the Beatles?

I came here trying to find out who performed with the Beatles on the show. I know Soupy Sales was on one of them. Is anyone planning on summarizing individual Sullivan episodes like people have done for other TV shows?? (Obviously, it's a gigantic job to do them all but maybe just the famous ones?)--Calan (talk) 17:49, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Removed uncited info

I've seen plenty of 1950's kinescopes featuring broadway singers performing hits from their musicals. Since the claim that it was "rare" was both uncited and auguably biased, I removed the line, peeps! Retro Agnostic (talk) 07:57, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

This page needs references. Does anyone know of any webpages that could be used? Ergito (talk) 18:43, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Some queries

1) Concerning Elvis Presley's three Sullivan appearances, it has been claimed in the "Elvis Presley" section that only on the third show Presley was shown from the waist up only, but that he was shown in full during the previous appearances, as screenshots from a modern DVD prove. However, some published sources (books, newspaper articles) say otherwise. Query: is a modern DVD really a reliable source? Elvis’s performance was telecast live and kinescoped, as videotapes and DVDs were not yet invented in the 50s. The problem is that what you now see on DVD is not necessarily identical with the performance people saw on TV at that time. You can be sure that there were different cameras shooting the star and his band (some showing Elvis from the waist up, some in full, others showing the members of his band or the host), and someone from Sullivan’s team decided what went on air and what not. However, for producing a current DVD they have certainly used the best material available from the archived shots of all the different cameras, also material which was definitely not on air in 1956. The only conclusion is that what the modern DVD is showing now cannot be the only source for a decision as to whether or not Elvis was to be seen in 1956 in full or from the waist up only. This may also explain why newspaper reports or eyewitness accounts of the time and experts using the old sources seem to contradict what is now to be seen on DVD.

2) The same "Elvis Presley" section includes the following paragraphs:

• Charles Laughton guest-hosted in Sullivan's place. Laughton appears in front of plaques with gold records and states, "These gold records, four of them... are a tribute to the fact that four of his recordings have sold, each sold, more than a million copies. And this, by the way, is the first time in record making history that a singer has hit such a mark in such a short time. ... And now, away to Hollywood to meet Elvis Presley."
• Once on camera, Elvis cleared his throat and said, “Thank you, Mr Laughton, ladies and gentlemen. Wow”, and wiped his brow. “This is probably the greatest honor I’ve ever had in my life. Ah. There’s not much I can say except, it really makes you feel good. We want to thank you from the bottom of our heart. And now..." "Don't Be Cruel," which was, after a short introduction by Elvis, followed by "Love Me Tender."
• Elvis's second set in the show consisted of "Ready Teddy" and a short on air comment to Sullivan, "Ah, Mr Sullivan. We know that somewhere out there you are looking in, and, ah, all the boys and myself, and everybody out here, are looking forward to seeing you back on television." Next, Elvis declares, "Friends, as a great philosopher once said, ‘You ain’t nothin’ but a Hound Dog...,' " as he launches into a short (1:07) version of the song.

Query: As these paragraphs include no more than insignificant small talk between Presley and Laughton during the show, are they encyclopedic enough for a Wikipedia article or should they be rewritten? Any suggestions are welcome. Onefortyone (talk) 23:56, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Kinescopes were made, according to everthing I've read, of the broadcast itself, not multiple camera shots. Broadcasts went out live from a live performance. I have never seen anywhere that anything other than the broadcast itself was kinescoped. To do this would mean that mutilple cameras would have to be set up in front of multiple monitors. It appears that the kinescopes were made for the purpose of rebroadcast to the West Coast. [3] Keep in mind that these early TV shows were in the days before syndication, and no one knew Elvis would be so big one day. On the other hand, if you do have links to, or images of newspaper clippings from newspapers that followed the first two Elvis appearances, that clearly state that he was shown only from the waist up, and clearly show the date, that would make me doubt that we are seeing the shows as they were broadcast. These articles would have to be dated, for instance the next day. Not after the infamous "waist up" show. Note that we are shown the lead in to, and the actual adds for Mercury cars, (I think) etc in the Sullivan Show dvds. This visual evidence seems to contradict much of the material written much later about Sullivan and Elvis. Steve Pastor (talk) 00:27, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Regarding the dialogue, to me, it contradicts some of what people who have written books about this stuff have written. I mean, Elvis wishes Sullivan well when he misses a show because he's in the hospital? Where is the chip on his shoulder because Sullivan didn't originally want him on the show? I think we learn about Elvis as he was in the early stage of his career. "Mister Laughlin", he says. "Mister Sullivan", he says. Etc. Course that's just me wanting to show people Elvis as he was, and was broadcast at the time, and wanting to let him speak for himself. As opposed to prsenting things as interpreted by people who may not have even seen this material as we can see it now (I really do have to wonder sometimes if they HAVE seen it). Steve Pastor (talk) 00:27, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Come on, Steve, these are only the usual gestures of politeness that stars and their hosts receive in such shows. Do you really think that Elvis would have critized or ignored Sullivan during the show? For publicity reasons he put a good face upon it, as the Colonel may have recommended. In most cases even two stars that hate each other are bloody friendly towards each other when they both appear in the same show. That's show business. By the way, when Elvis was made a fool by Steve Allen, did he react during the show? No, he was angry about his treatment only after the show. Onefortyone (talk) 02:00, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

He did what he did and said what he said. It is now a matter of public record after 50 years of only who knows who being able to look at and hear what was broadcast on those 3 nights. Reminds me of the "One small step for a man" quote. No matter how many times I heard it, I never heard the "a". And yet there it was in print, over and over again. (I think they are finally owning up to its not being htere.) Again, we have what we can clearly demonstrate, and then we have what people try to tell us he was thinking, what his motivation was, etc. I give more weight to what we can see and hear ourselves. BTW, shall I put in a picture of Elvis in a cowboy outfit along with the other comedians of the Steve Allen Show that was part of his appearance on the Allen Show? Or maybe he willingly participated in both that and Hound Dog because he wanted to be a star. He was not Elvis the megastar then. He was Elvis the up and coming young kid who grew up poor, etc. If these kinescopes were not available, we would not be having this discussion. And, BTW, far as I can remember, it was Scotty Moore who is on record saying that they were all angry. Is there a record of Elvis saying the same? There are a couple of interesting articles, one from American Music, the other from ??? that I've read on that subject. IF you are interested I can get you citations. Steve Pastor (talk) 15:26, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

SUllIVAN DID NOT WISH TO RETIRE

In the article it states that maybe Sullivan felt it was time to retire. In reality he was furious that his show was dumped without warning. He felt it should have been allowed to go on another two years to make 25 - That was his goal. Health or retirement were not considered. Read up on it —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.3.10.130 (talk) 06:46, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Plausible observation by Rodriguez

User DocKino has more than once removed a well-sourced addition to the article, accusing me of a subjective, idiosyncratic view per WP:UNDUEWEIGHT. To my mind, this user is wrong, as the statement by Rodriguez adds, for reasons of balance, an aspect to the article not mentioned before and is therefore fully in line with Wikipedia policies. The article says that

Sullivan praised Elvis at the end of the show, saying "This is a real decent, fine boy. We've never had a pleasanter experience on our show with a big name than we've had with you.... You're thoroughly all right."

Therefore, there are good reasons to include this additional remark in the article,

However, according to Robert Rodriguez, "Elvis’s discomfort at the compliment is evident; he looked as though he’d just received a Judas kiss before being publicly neutered and declared to be safe as milk."

for, some time ago, another user, Jaye9, cited Elvis himself saying,

So they arranged to put me on television. At that particular time there was a lot of controversy - you didn't see people moving out in public. They were gettin it on in the back rooms, but you didn't see it out in public too much. So there was a lot of controversy - and I went on the Ed Sullivan Show. They photographed me from the waist up. And Sullivan standing over there saying "Sumbitch". I said, "Thank you, Ed, thank you." I didn't know what he was calling me, at the time.

This shows that Rodriguez was certainly right with his opinion, and for reasons of balance, his statement should be included in the article. Interestingly, some months ago, while removing the same commentary from the Elvis Presley article, DocKino said that Rodriguez’ opinion about a fleeting facial expression is “a clever, intriguing, plausible observation.” See [4]. So why should this “clever, intriguing, plausible observation” not be included in the article on the Ed Sullivan Show, especially in view of the fact that it demonstrates, for reasons of balance, that Sullivan’s words weren’t honest. If there is another source which shows that Sullivan’s words were indeed sincere, we may also add this opinion to the article. Onefortyone (talk) 20:47, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Clever, intriguing, plausible observations by third-party observers belong in belletristic writing, but not in an encyclopedia when they (a) effectively involve mind-reading and (b) are unsupported by other observers. On the other hand, the description of the event quoted above by one of the central participants is absolutely worthy of inclusion. Can we identify the source for the Presley quote? If we can, it should go in. DocKino (talk) 21:34, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Secondary sources including plausible observations can certainly be used for a Wikipedia article. According to this webpage by reputed Elvis biographer Greil Marcus, the source you think should go in is Elvis Presley, "Elvis Talks About His Career," on "Live in Las Vegas" (RCA) and "Hound Dog" on "Roots Revolution" (Tomato) or "Good Rockin' Tonight: The Evolution of Elvis Presley -- The Complete Louisiana Hayride Archives" (Music Mill). However, I did some further research. TV Guide, Volume 45 (1997) calls Sullivan’s words "faint praise but significant, given the context." According to Tim Parrish, Walking Blues: Making Americans from Emerson to Elvis (2001), p.214, Colonel Parker "had threatened to remove Elvis from the show if Sullivan did not apologize for telling the press that Elvis’s ‘gyrations’ were immoral." I have added these sources to the article. They certainly support Rodriguez’ plausible observation. Onefortyone (talk) 18:40, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

I'll continue to argue that we should stick to what actually happened rather than someone's interpretation of what happened. Steve Pastor (talk) 15:57, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Here is another plausible "well sourced" observation. When "he sang Little Richard’s 'Reddy Teddy' and began to move and dance, the camera pulled in, so that the television audience saw him from the waist up only." Except that Elvis DID move energetically during this song and was shown in full while doing so. There WAS a still from the dvd in the article to highlight the absurdity of this comment, until someone removed. That still was from the dvd of the actual Sullivan show broadcast.Steve Pastor (talk) 16:37, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Take a look at the picture of Presley while he sang Ready Teddy. Unthreatening, according to Mr Gaur. BS I say. The picture speaks for itself. And I have several stills of other rather demonic facial expressions. So why to we need Gaur's opinion when we can see for ourselves? Like I say, we should stick to what actually happened rather than someone's interpretation of what happened. Steve Pastor (talk) 16:37, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

What you now see on modern DVDs must not necessarily be the same material that actually went on air in 1956/57. Elvis himself said that "there was a lot of controversy - and I went on the Ed Sullivan Show. They photographed me from the waist up." This is a clear statement by Elvis himself, and it is fully in line with the other written accounts. Onefortyone (talk) 13:22, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Rolling Stones Nazi Uniform Story Issue

Can anyone corraborate the Rolling Stones Nazi Uniform story with a internet verifiable source? Or at least have a better source ? I know the Rolling Stones history pretty well and I've never heard that factoid. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.134.249.78 (talk) 05:21, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

The Rolling Stones appeared on the Sullivan show six times total (1964, 1965, twice in 1966, 1967, and 1969). Their last appearance was late 1969---the Stones were superstars at this point and Ed Sullivan actually walked to Mick Jagger and shook his hand---the Sullivan Show was cancelled a year and a half later. The Stones were never banned by the show. Mick Jagger appeared on their first show (1964) without a jacket and it is true that Sullivan was annoyed but he was still allowed to appear without a jacket on the air. The Stones second appearance---the group complied---all wore jackets. The Nazi uniform thing is an urban legend--never happened. Despite their rebel image---the Stones were interested in making music and selling records and Sullivan had a huge audience.

Sources needed for several sections

The sections involving Buddy Holly and indeed most of the "controversies" section are badly in need of sourcing. 68.146.64.9 (talk) 08:05, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

"African American?"

Is it really necessary to separate African-American artists into their own category? They could be included in the Non-African-American list while still mentioning the cultural significance of any performance. Anyway, I believe the term is hyphenated. Camo Shoe Club (talk) 00:29, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Muppet Show dates need correction

The DVD release of the Rolling Stones episodes says the "Sclrap-Flyapp" routine by the Muppets was performed on January 15, 1967, not Nov. 24, 1968 as listed. But there is another Muppets performance listed on January 16, 1967. So unless Sullivan aired two episodes on succeeding days that week for some reason, there's an error somewhere. I personally would side with the dates given on the official DVD release. 70.72.223.215 (talk) 15:58, 6 May 2012 (UTC)